I am sure every RU fan would agree
1) the reason is they moved it to their main campus
2) their campus is still a cult in the middle of nowhere
I am sure Pitt fans are on board with #2 as well lol
USNWR 2022 Law School Rankings 😬
- Thread starter Leonard23
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I am sure every RU fan would agree
1) the reason is they moved it to their main campus
2) their campus is still a cult in the middle of nowhere
I am sure Pitt fans are on board with #2 as well lol
Reason I ask is that someone close to me was denied from RU law and Seton Hall despite being within the range of the LSAT acceptance and she had a high gpa. Meanwhile her friend who is black was accepted with the same lsat score. Her friend went to seton hall but dropped out after the first year. Meanwhile my friend went to Syracuse Law and is now working as a successful lawyer in NJ.
The funny thing is that the faculty was having a fight over whether to merge the two campuses (Dickinson and Happy Valley) into one. That must have been resolved somehow. I suspect that the law school gets more resources now that it has a presence at the main campus; that is also needed for Rutgers to give a damn about its law school.
I don't think anyone would disagree that being black gives a leg-up in the admissions proces both at public and private schools, and that this is practically universal. I'm glad things worked out for your friend. Syracuse's law school is very respectable s\even though U.S. News ranks it below Rutgers and Seton Hall -- I suspect that the same quality of firms interview there as at RU and SHU., and I doubt that anyone with a brain looks down on the school. As you probably know, the curricula at law schools do not vary much, and usually the same teaching techniques in the first year are used everywhere, so all this about who's better doesn't mean much.
I'll tell you another curiosity I have about Penn State and rankings.
If you refer to the other OP (USNWR 2022 Medical School (Research) Rankings), you will find that Penn State Medical School (Research) does not appear and is not listed. This seems somewhat odd in that relatively new Research Medical Schools made the list (Virginia Tech-established in 2007 and Florida State-established in 2000) but Penn State Medical School-established in 1963 is not.
The more recent ACC Medical Schools (Research) have lower US News rankings as one might suspect.
However, Penn State Medical School (Research) remains unranked some say because they will not fill out all the paper work required for ranking. If true why. I had always assumed that they were not ranked because they did not fit the US News category of Research Medical School.
Makes you wonder where Penn State Medical School (Research) would be ranked.
HAIL TO PITT!!!!
Syracuse Law has a pretty important alum right now...that's gotta be worth a few USNWR points for them. Looks like they went up actually.
I don't how many NYC/NJ firms interview there, when I applied it was thought it was a school to work upstate and thus they were hurt by Buffalo being cheaper. But my understanding is that historically it was a good school and more relevant in the Northeast, kind of like Villanova.
The POTUS finished in the bottom half of his class at Syracuse. Obviously, law study was not his forte. But of course many students who finish in the bottom half have fine careers; doing what professors want is only one element of being a successful lawyer, and sometimes of little importance.
Syracuse's law school has, I believe, a better reputation than Buffalo's law school. That's what the rankings above seem to show. And Syracuse , as you know, is a *long* way from Buffalo, so students who live near Syracuse go there rather than to Buffalo. The same is probably true for students from the NYC area.
I think Syracuse is close enough to NYC that NYC firms go up there to interview. But keep in mind that law firm visits to law schools are helpful for the very top of the class; the rest have to hustle for jobs. Many of the law schools in and around New York aren't exactly wonderful, so Syracuse students with good records and good appearances can get a job in NYC.
Syracuse's law school has, I believe, a better reputation than Buffalo's law school. That's what the rankings above seem to show. And Syracuse , as you know, is a *long* way from Buffalo, so students who live near Syracuse go there rather than to Buffalo. The same is probably true for students from the NYC area.
I think Syracuse is close enough to NYC that NYC firms go up there to interview. But keep in mind that law firm visits to law schools are helpful for the very top of the class; the rest have to hustle for jobs. Many of the law schools in and around New York aren't exactly wonderful, so Syracuse students with good records and good appearances can get a job in NYC.
I don't know any Cuse alums working in this area, but I would say I know someone from every NYC/NJ law school, plus Pace, Hofstra, Quinnipiac and UConn and the Philly schools. I also know one person from Touro but IDK if it's even called that anymore. I think they were in trouble over the years.
I think everyone at the top of his or her class can get a good job- in a normal economy. At least in the recession, NJ firms were more than willing to interview me in the middle of my class at a top 50 school and I had a bunch of second rounds at their offices, but it was very very tough to get offers and many people I know had their offers revoked. I really hope it's better now. I know someone who graduated cum laude at my school and she only now got at least a prestigious if not high paying job at DOJ.
Touro's law school (known as the Touro Law Center) still exists. I know someone who was a visiting professor at our law school who ended up as a prof there.
Yes, being at a law school in or near NYC is helpful for those who want to stay in the area. This is why students ought to think about what geographic area they want to live in for good while thinking about law school (It doesn't matter for the students going to Yale or Harvard, but it does for everyone else.) Students who came from elsewhere to Rutgers Law frequently found themselves staying in the area because it's easier to find a job in the law school's locale.
Yes, it is tough to get offers. That's probably very true now; I doubt the pandemic was good for law firms because it wasn't a profitable time for their clients. And here in New Jersey, the tradition persists of students having to go through one-year judicial clerkships at the local level before getting permanent jobs.
I expect that computerization will hurt lawyers some.There was a story in the Times about a computer that was better at detecting problems in draft contracts than lawyers were. I would think, of course, that the humans would be better at getting the problem solved, so maybe things won't be so bad. One thing for sure: a lot of routine work is going to get computerized.
Yes, being at a law school in or near NYC is helpful for those who want to stay in the area. This is why students ought to think about what geographic area they want to live in for good while thinking about law school (It doesn't matter for the students going to Yale or Harvard, but it does for everyone else.) Students who came from elsewhere to Rutgers Law frequently found themselves staying in the area because it's easier to find a job in the law school's locale.
Yes, it is tough to get offers. That's probably very true now; I doubt the pandemic was good for law firms because it wasn't a profitable time for their clients. And here in New Jersey, the tradition persists of students having to go through one-year judicial clerkships at the local level before getting permanent jobs.
I expect that computerization will hurt lawyers some.There was a story in the Times about a computer that was better at detecting problems in draft contracts than lawyers were. I would think, of course, that the humans would be better at getting the problem solved, so maybe things won't be so bad. One thing for sure: a lot of routine work is going to get computerized.
My nephew graduates from Penn Law next month. He'll be working for a big firm in NYC. He didn't go to law school right after college, spending 2 years working for a non profit foundation then surprised everyone with his decision. He would have liked to go to Stanford but was not going to get in. It came down to Penn, Vanderbuilt, and Northwestern.
Clearly a slouch, lol....Stanford or bust!
Sounds like he has a promising career ahead of him, and I would imagine a very proud uncle and family behind him.
Absolutely. Really personable young man too. Strange thing is both his parents are lawyers yet they swear he never showed the smallest interest in the law till the day he announced he was going to take the LSAT's.
Congratulations to him on his impending graduation from Penn Law. All three would have been reasonable choices, with the decision coming down mostly to where he wants to practice (and, if he has a significant other, where that person is.) All three of those schools attract many recruiters and provide a fine education.
BTW, I don't think there's anything particularly exceptional at Stanford. But, of course, I'm a Berkeley law graduate so I'm prejudiced! I don't really think there's a dime worth of difference among the top twenty or so law schools. All schools have the same first year curriculum and the same teaching style. Clinical programs differ from school to school, but I don't think the difference is that significant; nor do I think the U.S. news ratings of clinical programs are based on anything but the amount the school pushes the program as being a big deal. It's just not that important where one goes to law school; no one gives a damn about it when a grad is looking for something past his or her first job.
Things we learned in our tour of Berkeley after tour of Stanford. Berkeley's Campanile is taller than Stanford's Tower. Eight elements on the Periodic Table were discovered at Berkeley. Zero at Stanford.
Turning to law schools, the law profession and prospective students tend to be too fixated on prestige and rankings. Perhaps if a prospective student has a goal to obtain a high profile position in the government or as a law professor, chasing the most prestigious school is worth it. But as you said above, for the average student seeking employment in a firm, location may be more important than prestige. In my field (patents), pedigree of law school means little. Like any other profession, what you do after law school and not where you went to law school is more important to career success. There are great opportunities at small and medium sized firms, and generally speaking, many attorneys are much happier at smaller firms than at the white shoe firms.
There's a lot in what you say,, Knight Shift. Going to U.C. Berkeley helped me a lot in getting a law professor job. But there is a path for those with excellent records from "lesser" schools; pursue a masters of law at a prestigious school. There one will pick up references and write at least one article. (Law faculties these days want new faculty to already have written at least one article.) The Rutgers law faculty has had a substantial number of professors who took this route, principally by going to Columbia's masters program. (The Camden school's original dean had been an associate dean at Columbia; students would joke that he wanted to make Rutgers-Camden "Columbia on the Delaware." (Come to think of it, that isn't a bad objective!)
Very few lawyers who start at the very prestigious firms make partner there or even stay long enough to be evaluated for partner; I'm an example of the latter. Being at one is like going to a prestigious law school; it gives the young lawyer a credential as smart, even though I don't think prestigious firms train young lawyers any better than anyone else. Looking back at my career, I might have learned more going to the California Attorney-General's office than to a high-prestige law firm., and it wouldn't have affected my later career.
Many young lawyers at prestige firms end up at small and middle size firms or as "in-house" at a business. The latter offers a better lifestyle though less money. Companies are figuring out that large firms cost more than they're worth except for very matters that require a lot of staff, e.g. litigation or a merger.
Very few lawyers who start at the very prestigious firms make partner there or even stay long enough to be evaluated for partner; I'm an example of the latter. Being at one is like going to a prestigious law school; it gives the young lawyer a credential as smart, even though I don't think prestigious firms train young lawyers any better than anyone else. Looking back at my career, I might have learned more going to the California Attorney-General's office than to a high-prestige law firm., and it wouldn't have affected my later career.
Many young lawyers at prestige firms end up at small and middle size firms or as "in-house" at a business. The latter offers a better lifestyle though less money. Companies are figuring out that large firms cost more than they're worth except for very matters that require a lot of staff, e.g. litigation or a merger.
Lost track of this thread, and have been sporadically on and off the forums lately. The bolded part is very true. Often, young associates burn out after a few years due to onerous billable hour requirements or they find that the prospects of obtaining meaningful work and/or partnership are not good. As far as money, smaller and mid-sized firms do not pay as much in starting salary. But partnership usually results in making more money 6-10 years down the road from law school graduation, and generally, chances for partnership are much greater in smaller to mid sized firms. They are generally a lot less stuffy, more collegial, and are usually quite flexible on working from home and dress requirements.
Really? I'm of the opinion that UCLA has always been a national law school and has been ranked in the top 15 for decades.
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anon_ivydyf0amkzay
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What’s pretty telling is how the Texas A&M School of Law, which didn’t exist until it bought out moribund Texas Wesleyan in 2013, is now ranked 53…many thought A&M “buying itself” a law school in a state with Rice and Texas was a dumb move…seems to have worked out decently enough.
Historically most of the CA schools with perhaps the exception of Stanford have been been associated with placing mostly into CA firms.
Law unfortunately remains mired in provincialism.
I do know some people that I went to law school with that live in CA now. In house tech is probably the most sought after. My guess is that people who go to UCLA have no desire to deal with much more fickle fields that would dominate here especially post COVID.
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They probably greased the right palms. It's a big scam that people fall for. Like this notion NJ has the best public schools in the country. The NJEA probably pays off the services that do these ratings. NJ schools aren't no better than any other state
Its totally unacceptable that Rutgers professional schools rank so mediocre or below average in these publications.
Law School
Med School
Business School
Communications School
Our location alone is a massive advantage. The amount of top employers, top students in the NYC, NJ, Philly/PA regions all within 90min or less drive.
Its a pipe dream to get every single one of those programs into the Top 40 (Top 25 of publics). But other than our own mishandlings and disorganization, there really isn't a reason why we shouldn't be.
Law School
Med School
Business School
Communications School
Our location alone is a massive advantage. The amount of top employers, top students in the NYC, NJ, Philly/PA regions all within 90min or less drive.
Its a pipe dream to get every single one of those programs into the Top 40 (Top 25 of publics). But other than our own mishandlings and disorganization, there really isn't a reason why we shouldn't be.
2021-22 rankings were recently released. Out of 20,000 colleges , Rutgers is the number 50 university IN THE WORLD !!! Congratulations to everyone associated with Rutgers.
I would say its below average for its peers.
Ranked #44 for undergrad program by US News.
Tied with schools such as Alabama, Purdue, Boston College, SMU, Utah
Big Ten Schools:
#4 Northwestern
#13 Michigan
#23 Indiana
#28 Minnesota
#33 Ohio St
#33 Penn St
#39 Mich St
#42 Maryland
#42 Wisconsin
#44 Rutgers
#44 Purdue
Illinois (unranked)
Nebraska (unranked)
Iowa (unranked)
Rutgers should be more in line with Indiana, Ohio St. What are the reasons why we can't be?
No idea how Minnesota ranks so high. Surprised at how low Wisconsin ranked. And I continue to be baffled that a school in the middle of nowhere PA ranks higher than Rutgers for business schools.
I think one or two specializations within the school are more highly regarded. Supply chain management might be a top 10 or 20 ranked program.
Only kind of bigger surprise to me is not seeing Illinois ranked/top 50.
What is the difference though between 44 and 33? In the law school and undergrad ranking sometimes it's a decimal point.
I know Big 4 recruits heavily and I know people who went directly into investment banking,
So whatever USNWR thinks it's not necessarily in practice around here.
The problem versus the law school ranking though is less local competition. No one would seriously regard SHU or Temple business school on the level of RU. So we're basically next best best after Ivies and NYU.
It might be a razor thin margin (although I don't think it is because we've been in this same neighborhood for quite awhile).
But I'd argue that the decimal or two is worth fighting for. Getting into Top 30 consistently would be significant for brand recognition.
But I think Top 20 should be the true goal for us. We have the location, shiny building, the right programs, strong student pool, and an unbelievable alumni network and opportunity to partner with local employers
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My guess is the Big4 likely recruits from many of the top 50, not just a handful of schools.
Agree that there is not as much local competition, esp. in terms of rankings. As a technical matter, most of the Ivies don't have undergrad business programs that confer a bachelor's degree so they're really not in the rankings picture. I think Cornell and Wharton/Penn are the only two. You can, of course, pursue some manner of an Econ degree at all of them and I imagine a decent number of those Ivy grads then feed into traditional I-banking, management consulting, and Big4 acctg jobs.
Your first sentence is just wrong. The same firms that recruit at Stanford recruit at Berkeley. There were plenty of people from my Berkeley class who were recruited for firms in cities like NYC and DC, and I wound up in Chicago.
This is what I read when I applied. Could have been different before and after. Certainly things change. Back in the day Syracuse was regarded as a top law school, and UC Irvine only became a law school in the last decade. Remember before the 08 recession everyone thought law school was a meal ticket and it was like that for some time, so you had a glut of applicants and firms could be more choosy. As a result of that crash, things changed substantially. While they were better for a brief period I am pretty sure that is gone now again.
