Wetzel: Why NCAA shouldn't punish Baylor football after latest scandal
- Thread starter Knight Shift
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You're right. Paterno only admitted he knew about "fondling" and "something sexual." By the way, the fact that Paterno lovers make this distinction and think it's important is what creeps the rest of the world out about you guy.
The context of the e-mails was whether to report Sandusky. Paterno ran the show and had everyone keep it under his control for 40 years.
You are just a Paterno lover who has no problem lying about decades of child rape. Kind of like that Paterno guy you worship.
What is "hammered" to you? The Penn State sanctions, despite being lessened and eventually overturned, are still having an impact today, five years later.
I love how you parlay one statement that McQueary told him he might have witnessed something of a sexual nature occurring into "lying for decades about child rape." You must have taken lessens from the same people that wrote the grand jury presentment.
And I worship no one - in fact, I've already said in this thread that Paterno did not handle the situation as well as he should have - but I'm also not prepared to draw weak conclusions off threads of evidence here and there that an active cover-up occurred, nonetheless one led by Paterno. Like I said, drink a beer, have a hot dog, enjoy the sunny weather; these trials will all play out and then we'll see where we stand. No one on this forum is changing anyone's mind in the meantime.
For the record, they did a pretty bad job of keeping it under wraps, seeing as how it was reported to The Second Mile, which is, you know, the children's charity that did nothing to protect children. The TSM president isn't a household name, though, so few people talk about that. Fortunately, it appears some momentum is gathering in PA to actually investigate what the charity knew and what it did, or did not, do.
They must have also controlled the AG office, various prosecutors, other law enforcement, psychiatrists, and child services in the state to let Sandusky continue to adopt children and roam freely for so long. Did you watch the 30 for 30 on Duke lacrosse? I wouldn't rule out a similar special on the Sandusky scandal in five or 10 more years.
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Let's look at your typical Penn State/ Paterno lover lie. McQuery at no time said he "might" have seen molestation going on to Paterno. He said he did see it going on.
Stop right here. Are you willing to admit that is a true statement? Or are you going to lie?
At no time did Paterno say he doubted the truth of this statement in any way shape or form. Is this a true statement?
There is no difference between "rape" and Paterno's own words of "fondling" or doing "something sexual" with a child. Is this a true statement?
Penn State has paid out over 60 million dollars to approximately 2 dozen victims covering over 40 years of child rape cases with a victim from the 70's saying he talked to Paterno after being raped by Sandusky. Is this a true statement?
Please answer each of these questions in detail and individually. We can then go on to individual questions about the e-mails you can answer for all of us. If you duck any of these questions, we will revisit them.
Stop right here. Are you willing to admit that is a true statement? Or are you going to lie?
At no time did Paterno say he doubted the truth of this statement in any way shape or form. Is this a true statement?
There is no difference between "rape" and Paterno's own words of "fondling" or doing "something sexual" with a child. Is this a true statement?
Penn State has paid out over 60 million dollars to approximately 2 dozen victims covering over 40 years of child rape cases with a victim from the 70's saying he talked to Paterno after being raped by Sandusky. Is this a true statement?
Please answer each of these questions in detail and individually. We can then go on to individual questions about the e-mails you can answer for all of us. If you duck any of these questions, we will revisit them.
PSU didn't get hammered. Barely got dittiled.
Pretty sure I read an article saying USC got hit worse. Add in fact B1G watered down your schedule and it's laughable
The initial sanctions called for a 4-year bowl ban and the loss of 40 scholarships from 2013-2017, limiting PSU to no more than 65 over that period (2 more than a FCS team). The athletic department was also hit with a $60 million fine, which it continues to pay.
I realize that the postseason ban ended two years early, and that the scholarships were gradually restored ahead of schedule, but there's no question that the sanctions cost PSU dearly in financial terms and the roster, to this day, remains handicapped.
Given that, again I'll ask you, what is "hammered"? I'm not trying to be difficult; rather I'm curious to hear what you think would be worse outside of the death penalty or TV ban, which are unrealistic in today's college football environment, especially in a case that didn't involve NCAA regulations.
USC, by the way, received a two-year postseason ban and lost 30 scholarships over three years. The Penn State sanctions were worse, and the worst next to SMU.
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1 - McQueary did tell Paterno he witnessed something in the shower. He apparently said it was sexual in nature. However, his story has changed with the wind, which is worth stating and at least part of the reason Sandusky was actually acquitted of the charge related to that victim.
2 - I'm not aware of reports of Paterno "believing" or "disbelieving" in the credibility of McQueary's story, or I'm just not remembering them right now.
3 - I'd have to check the legal definitions. But I think, for most people, there would be a clear difference in meaning when you use the word "rape" versus "fondling" or "something sexual." One implies penetration to the average person, but again, I'd have to look up the exact definitions. A large portion of the initial public outcry against Paterno was because of the exaggerated phrasing in the grand jury report that he was told of "anal rape," which we know now isn't true. Why do you think the report was worded in that fashion? Hell, why do you think it was leaked at all?
4 - Penn State has paid millions of dollars in settlements, largely based on the victims' claims alone, with little to no investigating. Settlements are often reached to avoid the litigation process, for any number of reasons, and are not necessarily an admission of guilt. The president of the university came out with a strongly worded statement that the university was not made aware of allegations related to Paterno dating from the 1970s during the settlement process. That is an unsubstantiated allegation at this point.
That good for you?
Not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.
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Just showing what you are to every body. There is nothing that can ever come out that you cannot make a crazy excuse for. Everybody sees this but the Paterno lovers.
Paterno said "fondling' or :something sexual". You personally think a grown man doing that to a boy is not rape. Paterno never said there was "no penetration". e just said "fondling and something sexual". The Paterno lovers like yourself think its somehow makes a difference if McQueary says he got close enough to see in your word "penetration". You are truly one F'd up individual. paterno loyalty aside, please seek therapy. I am being honmest on this comment.
Yes, Paterno never said anything about believing or disbelieving in court. Don't you think that's you bending over backwards but you just can't see it.
I actually deal in settlements all the time. Your excuse is very weak on the Penn Satte paying out part. Yo seem to trying to talk from a position of knowledge. Then you already know that you don't pay out over 60 million dollars unless you have many very strong cases against you. I am actually speaking from professional experience here and have actual cases on my desk (not sexual) as we speak. If you are agreeing to that kind of money in settlements it is because you are going to get hammered in court. Of course maybe you have never dealt with big cases and are talking out your ass? Those kind of payouts are simply because you are screwed in court. Again, you spoke as if you have knowledge in this. Do you? Again I do, so I assume I am not telling you anything you do not know. So why the BS every step of the way?
Also, this is the other really bad thing about the Paterno lover like yourself. Dozens of victims over 40 years. Your own university sees a lot of truth in what they are saying, but you always jump on the victims and try and make them out to be liars who are just looking for a handout. That's a pretty sick attitude to have against the dozens of kids who were m,olested at your school, by your school's employees, with knowledge by your school's employees of the kids getting raped. I get school loyalty, but what does this say about you as a person. Out of school loyalty your knee jerk reaction is to say kids who got molested are liars.
I will make this personal. Your lack of caring about the kids in this speaks very poorly of you. Kids got raped for decades at your school. Paterno knew and let dandusky get away with it for 40 years. Your maing the victims out to be potential liars and making an argument of whether "penetration" matters disgusts me.
This is different than Penn State. The goal of the Baylor cover-up was to keep the criminals out of jail so they could play football games. If Penn State is the comparable here the punishment needs to be harsher IMHO.
I appreciate your passion. I feel strongly that when we learn more about how Sandusky was able to operate for so long, and how the McQueary situation was handled, your disdain would be better directed toward PA's former governor and the PSU Board of Trustees rather than a football coach. In the meantime, thanks for the judgment. I'm not sure how I will sleep tonight.
You will sleep the same way Paterno did for the 40 years he allowed child rape to go on under his cover. The most powerful man at Penn State, Paterno, allowed child rape to happen for 40 years. You are as concerned about that as he was.
Still awaiting comments from vkj91 on what it means to be "hammered" also. You (meaning posters here) tried calling me out and failed. It's not that hard to answer simple questions.
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LOL. It's good to know you believe CNN stories that CNN itself didn't find credible. People like you are why we have to worry about Donald Trump potentially becoming president. What else can we publish that you'll believe implicitly?
And since it's my turn to ask questions, why do you think the grand jury report was exaggerated and leaked? Why did Corbett slow play the investigation into Sandusky as AG while accepting campaign money from TSM, yet urge the board to fire Paterno? Why did they cancel Paterno's presser and not let Spanier control the message? How did Ken Frazier and other trustees make out personally and financially from the Sandusky scandal? I answered your questions; I'll wait while you do your research. Or we can wait for the 30 for 30 in 10 years.
I usually don't pay much attention to many sportswriters - but, I did come across that article on another website yesterday--- I honestly could not believe what I was reading.
it was sad bordering on sickening....
There's no question the NCAA should get involved. On the surface - BU is another program that should get the death penalty (like penn state should have)....
the fact, that little will happen is sad.......
it was sad bordering on sickening....
There's no question the NCAA should get involved. On the surface - BU is another program that should get the death penalty (like penn state should have)....
the fact, that little will happen is sad.......
Analysis: Sandusky report finds no smoking gun against Corbett, but puzzling delays in the case | Reading Eagle - NEWS
Despite the criticism of the investigation, the report cleared Corbett of accusations that he stalled the case for political gain.
Corbett cleared: The report found no evidence that Gov. Tom Corbett, who was attorney general for the first part of the investigation, slowed it for his gubernatorial election or any other political reason.
Case delayed: The report found a series of delays that led to a long gap between when allegations against Sandusky were reported to local authorities, and when investigators searched his house or began looking for more victims.
http://www.readingeagle.com/news/ar...ainst-corbett-but-puzzling-delays-in-the-case
Merck CEO decided to head Jerry Sandusky investigation out of gratitude for school | NJ.com
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/12/merck_ceo_decided_to_head_penn.html
Joe Paterno’s press conference canceled - The Washington Post
“Due to the on-going legal circumstances centered around the recent allegations and charges,” the university said in a statement, “we have determined that today’s press conference cannot be held and will not be re-scheduled.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...ence-canceled/2011/11/08/gIQAExnA1M_blog.html
Understanding the investigation of the Sandusky grand jury | PennLive.com
While unauthorized leaks are not believed to have been a major problem in the Penn State cases, the state grand jury has simultaneously heard evidence on numerous other cases, including a multi-year investigation of contracting, hiring and other practices at the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/02/special_prosecutor_named_to_st.html
Jerry Sandusky request to examine grand jury participants denied | PennLive.com
Judge John Cleland ruled after an unusual, closed-door session with Kane in which, according to the judge's order, she provided no evidence or information of leaks from her predecessors' staffs in the case.
Cleland wrote openly about Kane's testimony in his Thursday afternoon order, which he noted he had initially kept closed out of caution that information protected by grand jury secrecy rules might come out.
Instead, the judge wrote, Kane "testified that she is aware of no information, including emails or oral or written communications, that either prove to her, or persuade her, that Judge (Barry) Feudale and/or any attorneys for the Office of Attorney General orchestrated, facilitated, cooperated in, or arranged for the disclosure of otherwise secret grand jury information in this case."
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/11/jerry_sandusky_request_to_exam.html
Penn St 2002 - 2208 : "Since 2002, 46 Penn State football players have faced 163 criminal charges, according to an ESPN analysis of Pennsylvania court records and reports. Twenty-seven players have been convicted of or have pleaded guilty to a combined 45 counts."
OK? If anything credit goes to the State College police. Clearly PSU football players received no preferential treatment. State College is not Tallahassee. In the early 2000s, PSU accepted some kids it probably shouldn't have. It happens. You need to look no further than your 2015 secondary to see that. This is irrelevant to the Sandusky scandal.
It's too late to rip this post apart, but let's just copy and paste from the first link you provided...
But the report, released Monday by Attorney General Kathleen G. Kane, paints a picture of an often-stalled investigation that allowed a suspected child predator to remain free for more than a year after a prosecutor recommended charges.
While the state took over the investigation of the former Penn State assistant football coach in 2009, the report says agents did not search his home or take steps to find more victims until 2011.
MY OWN COMMENTARY: As I said earlier, many people on this board will end up looking much better if they reserve comment until all of the trials are completed.
Try this explanation on for size: Paterno knew what was happening and had known for a long time. He also knew that if it became public, it would have devastating effects on PSU football and no his image. He hoped it wall wasn't too horrific, and that his old buddy Sandusky could keep it basically under control.
That explanation covers why all of a sudden Sandusky steps down as a coach and never gets a D1 HC offer. It explains why he gets to keep an office in the football facilities. It also explains why Paterno took the absolutely minimal steps when he learned about this instead of calling the police. If McQueary had come to Joe and said, "I just saw someone beating up someone else in the Student Union," he wouldn't have sent a note to the AD, he would have called the police. He would have made sure there was follow up. Why didn't he here? Because it wasn't in his best interests to do so.
He shouldn't have done more. He should have done much more. He didn't because he was covering. That's why he wanted to know how things were progressing, but not enough to actually do something.
I love Wentzel's take on this: "Your honor, yes my client murdered those twelve people, but let's step back here. If you focus on my client, you demean the lives of those murdered. They should be our focus your honor. If you punish my client, you take that focus away. Think of the children your honor, and let my client go free so that we can focus on those who perished."
Sandusky was set to retire before the 1998 incident but then was brought back. Even the Freeh report got correct that Sandusky's retirement was unrelated. He was also set to take the UVA job in 2001 until UVA alum Al Groh was fired as the Head Coach of the NY Jets and UVA went with Groh. Sandusky then choose to focus on his 2nd Mile Charity vs seek coaching opportunities. We now know why. As far as I know, Paterno telling other schools or ADs not to hire him has never been more than message board supposition.
The idea that if they turned Sandusky in it would "… have devastating effects on PSU football and no [sic] his image…" is so backwards to me. Paterno would have been praised, for not putting football first, as he always was, for turning Sandusky in and would have lasted a 1/10 of a news cycle. We know this is true because it happened. Initially it was reported that Paterno did the right thing and reported the incident to the AD and for 3 days there was zero outrage, then Kelly and Noonan say Paterno met his legal obligation but not his moral one and now it's news. The point is not to argue whether or not Paterno did right or wrong the point is that reporting Sandusky would have had negligible effect on the program.
This is also witnessesd in the Baylor case. One of the players involved in the Baylor stuff was a former PSU player that was kicked off the team. Did kicking him off damage PSU brand? We also lost a TE for a sexual assault allegation this year. Did that damage our brand?
To me it's a real disservice to the actual societal issues in our country when we use "boogie men" as the reason heinous acts are happening in said society. Said another way, the data says 1 in 6 girls and 1 in 10 boys have been abused in this country. That sheer number indicates an epidemic. By using football culture as the enabler we have given perpetrators cover since otherwise they can't possibly get away with these heinous acts.
Paterno admitted he knew all about the child rape going on for at least the last decade of Sandusky's 40 year career as a child rapist in Paterno's facilities. "Fondling" and doing "something sexual" to a naked little boy is a grown man "raping" that child. Paterno admitted he knew all about the child rape in a court of law.
Talking a man out of reporting child rape is also what Paterno knowingly did. "After talking to coach" the decision was made not to report the incident and keep Sandusky's child rapes in house. Paterno worked to keep Sandusky's child rape activities quiet for 40 years. The first known kid who told Paterno about Sandusky raping him did so in the 70's. The pattern was established then, it stayed in house.
Paterno had knowledge from the 70's to the 2000's.Paterno's actions helped enable Sandusky to have a 40 year career of raping children.
Talking a man out of reporting child rape is also what Paterno knowingly did. "After talking to coach" the decision was made not to report the incident and keep Sandusky's child rapes in house. Paterno worked to keep Sandusky's child rape activities quiet for 40 years. The first known kid who told Paterno about Sandusky raping him did so in the 70's. The pattern was established then, it stayed in house.
Paterno had knowledge from the 70's to the 2000's.Paterno's actions helped enable Sandusky to have a 40 year career of raping children.
notice how all of the HIve Collective's posts are long and full of meaningless drivel trying to convince us of their rationalizations and delusions?
yet they still won't anwer the fundamental questions
Did Joe know SOMETHING weird was up with Sandusky and kids?
If he did why was Sandusky still on campus 20 years later?
END OF F***ING STORY
you people are mentally ill.
yet they still won't anwer the fundamental questions
Did Joe know SOMETHING weird was up with Sandusky and kids?
If he did why was Sandusky still on campus 20 years later?
END OF F***ING STORY
you people are mentally ill.
Knew you'd come up with some BS attacking what I posted in reply to your asking another poster questions that were just accusations easily disproved .
You implied some things and I shot them out of the water.
Face it you don't want honest answers and only will accept a point of view that agrees with your false interpretation .
As for your own commentary, you would look a lot better if you admitted the truth , accept the answers to the questions you ask and didn't try to spin the answers you receive to fit your misplaced ( for lack of a better word) view on the Penn St cover-up and those involved.
There were plenty of RU fans that downplayed the crime charges from Flood's final year. RU fans aren't as different as people want to believe.
..,and we also had our own fans looking to link us to the PSU/ Sandusky stuff because Schiano was at PSU in the early-mid '90's. I can actually take your post to be an example of how we tend to be highly self-critical.
Joe P.
The difference is the charges and no one claimed they should go unpunished once facts were known.
If you remember, the vast majority of RU FB fans wanted those players in jail and blamed Flood for recruiting the players that were arrested.
Also Rutgers didn't try to keep those players eligible after finding out the facts nor did RU try to stonewall any investigation of those players.
This is fundamentally the same argument that Wetzel makes. Since it is so widespread, we shouldn't condemn specific instances of it or blame people who cover it up.
It is backwards to you because you have crafted a reality that bears little relationship to the real one that Paterno was dealing with. Why does a guy who is at the height of his game, ready for a big move, suddenly retire at age 55? Why does Paterno tell him he'll never be HC at PSU? Why does Paterno draft a letter to Sandusky telling him to give up 2nd Mile? What is going on in the spring of 1998, before McQueary sees Sandusky in the locker room?
The Freeh Report does say that there is no evidence that 1998 incident was not a factor. Why might that be? Because Paterno knew about Sandusky's behaviour well before 1998 and had decided that the quality of his coaching no longer justified covering his behaviour?
The problem is that the "Joe didn't know and Jerry just decided to retire when he could easily have gotten an HC job, and then oops, another problem arose," is such massive wishful thinking that it's really hard to have a real discussion about it.
Had Joe really just been told about this for the first time in 1998, and never knew anything before that, then, yeah, letting it all out might have been positive. But the fact is, Joe knew he'd been covering this for years, maybe decades. It's hard to know in the midst of something which way it will go. In reality, it wasn't a positive, it led to a legend being sacked. Same for Briles. If we are going to root out the problem, we have to let folks know that no matter how much they win, it isn't OK. Even at Penn State.
Dick Anderson, former head coach of Rutgers, knew all about Sandusky. Disgusting!!!
From Wikepedia:
Relationship with Jerry Sandusky
Anderson maintains a close personal relationship with former Penn State defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky. He testified at Sandusky's child sex abuse trial that it was not uncommon for assistant coaches and minors to be in the showers at the same time at the Lasch Football Complex.
So did Greg Schiano. Schiano worked for Sandusky as a defensive assistant. HE HAD TO KNOW. Otherwise, he is one of the stupiest human beings on the planet. Right?? Rutgers hired pedo enablers. See how this works?
I'm a bit confused because I read that "everybody" knew. Well, if true, Anderson and Schiano knew. They were hired and coached at Rutgers. Ergo, Rutgers and all of it's grads/fans are pedo enablers. Fact. On the other hand, I read that Paterno kept this "secret" to himself. How is that possible? Evidently, Paterno was such a criminal mastermind, that he could control everyone at PSU and in State College. These "secrets" were kept for 45+ years. They only came out after PSU's pathetic BOT started paying out $3M+ to anyone who said the magic words, "Sandusky, rape, and Paterno". Wow! Had he been in Nixon's cabinet, Watergate would never have seen the light of day. He's like Don Vito Paterno.
