4 D 2 players in second round, let’s end the Nil excuses now

[socaldave]

“Ben McCollum and Drake are in the second round of the NCAA Tournament with 4 D2 players and we have to hear about how Rutgers just didn't have enough next to Ace Bailey and Dylan Harper to get past Relegation Wednesday at the B1G Dance”
From RU screw Podcast on X
The other BS narrative Pike is a players coach
As we constantly see players like Cam and
Mag go help other teams and win tournament games.
Since Mag got injured at the Garden it’s been all downhill for Rutgers
To the Mag is not a main reason for Rutgers success while he was here pre injury, you don’t know basketball

 

[ImBadRU]

Mag was mvp b4 injury by a lot

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

And for the 30th time, kids like Mag don’t command a lot of NIL. Mag may have thought he was worth more, but the point is, the market for that type of kid isn’t out of our budget. We chose to chase kids who put up pretty looking offensive stats on mid-major teams rather than glue guys from major conference teams who hustle and play D looking for a change. We should’ve focused on the latter and we would’ve had a better team for the same budget. Period.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I’ll add - anyone who wants to focus on money - the only thing we possibly could’ve / should’ve done differently was point blank prioritize keeping Cliff at Rutgers above all else. Those conversations should’ve happened during last season. He should’ve been told not to sweat the current year - the following season would be special and he would be the nucleus with the two star frosh. Every penny of NIL that we had should’ve gone to that.

Because guess what? If Cliff stays, we start the offseason with JMike, Dylan, J Will, Ace, Cliff and Ogbole as the back up center. We have Dylan Grant and Bryce Dortch coming in at forward. Let’s assume Lathan changes his mind if Cliff stays. Fine. So what? Martini still comes in this situation and is a fine rotation piece. From there, whatever we get in the portal to fill out the backcourt we get for limited funds. It wouldn’t be worse than what we ended up with in Jordan, Acuff and PJ.

 

[scarletrat]

outside of Yeboah who he knew at SB and Spencer, it's painfully clear Pike and staff can't figure out how to successfully recruit the right type of players from the portal. Or, he can't adapt his coaching style to the players he gets. It's both. It's what most concerning as we move forward--he's not shown anything to suggest it will change.

those 4 former D-2 players all played together at NEMSU, that counts for something.

 

[darkcheck]

I love this thread, and there is a lot of truth to it. Playing devils advocate, a lot of difference to four d2 playing night in and night out in Drakes conf v the B1G. Need to be just about top half of B1G to dance.

That being said I’m sure McNeeses players aren’t commanding a lot of NIL. The gems are out there. Rutgers has a limited fan base and resources. Wishing for more money is sad. Changing your strategies, player evals, finding fits and doing better with what you have is controllable. The NIL we did have couldn’t even inbound the ball v Iowa. As a program that’s proof we have a problem.

 

[RRRRUUUU]

I’m very critical of Pike after this season, but using this 1 in 68 example as something that can be the norm is a little disingenuos.

If a buddy of mine wins the lottery, it shouldn’t become a reasonable expectation for me to win if I buy a ticket. Obviously the lottery is aN exaggeration (before someone says it’s a lot harder to win the lottery). But the point holds. If this were a reasonably consistent viable path, everyone would be chasing D2 players.

 

[darkcheck]

I’m very critical of Pike after this season, but using this 1 in 68 example as something that can be the norm is a little disingenuos.

If a buddy of mine wins the lottery, it shouldn’t become a reasonable expectation for me to win if I buy a ticket. Obviously the lottery is aN exaggeration (before someone says it’s a lot harder to win the lottery). But the point holds. If this were a reasonably consistent viable path, everyone would be chasing D2 players.

Very fair, but there was more than one example just yesterday. They’ll be more today. McNeese. Michigan only won by what they beat us at the rac. Quite a few teams doing as much or more with less.

 

[Simce91]

outside of Yeboah who he knew at SB and Spencer, it's painfully clear Pike and staff can't figure out how to successfully recruit the right type of players from the portal. Or, he can't adapt his coaching style to the players he gets. It's both. It's what most concerning as we move forward--he's not shown anything to suggest it will change.

those 4 former D-2 players all played together at NEMSU, that counts for something.

Spot on post

This years transfer portal "haul" is crucial for Pike. He has to get " contributors"

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I love this thread, and there is a lot of truth to it. Playing devils advocate, a lot of difference to four d2 playing night in and night out in Drakes conf v the B1G. Need to be just about top half of B1G to dance.

That being said I’m sure McNeeses players aren’t commanding a lot of NIL. The gems are out there. Rutgers has a limited fan base and resources. Wishing for more money is sad. Changing your strategies, player evals, finding fits and doing better with what you have is controllable. The NIL we did have couldn’t even inbound the ball v Iowa. As a program that’s proof we have a problem.

Look - no coach can be expected to keep reloading on gems. That’s not realistic. The biggest critique on Pike for this season is that he failed to prioritize the right needs to maximize his odds of succeeding with the group he had coming in.

He abandoned his own recruiting strategy that he’s been most successful with and instead hoped to score a bunch of Cam Spencers in the portal. Ask yourselves - after Cam, who has been the next best offense-first perimeter sharp shooter Pike has recruited at RU (HS, portal, anything)? His hit rate on those types of kids has been really bad - particularly so, in the portal. Not his thing. Peter Kiss, Noah F, Acuff, PJ, Jaden Jones, GG, and so on.

You have 2 stars coming in. You don’t need super stars as long as you have a solid post defender at the 5 and some hustle kids to surround them with. The last thing we needed was to add another frosh to start at the 5 and a bunch of volume scoring mid-major kids most of which weren’t known for D at the lower level. What did we expect in hindsight?

 

[NickRU714]

Look - no coach can be expected to keep reloading on gems. That’s not realistic. The biggest critique on Pike for this season is that he failed to prioritize the right needs to maximize his odds of succeeding with the group he had coming in.

He abandoned his own recruiting strategy that he’s been most successful with and instead hoped to score a bunch of Cam Spencers in the portal. Ask yourselves - after Cam, who has been the next best offense-first perimeter sharp shooter Pike has recruited at RU (HS, portal, anything)? His hit rate on those types of kids has been really bad - particularly so, in the portal. Not his thing. Peter Kiss, Noah F, Acuff, PJ, Jaden Jones, GG, and so on.

You have 2 stars coming in. You don’t need super stars as long as you have a solid post defender at the 5 and some hustle kids to surround them with. The last thing we needed was to add another frosh to start at the 5 and a bunch of volume scoring mid-major kids most of which weren’t known for D at the lower level. What did we expect in hindsight?

HC Pike appears to have expected to surround them with JWill, Davis and Derkack as those “hustle kids”.

Acuff, Martini and Hayes would have been fine if the “defensive hustle kids” actually do their jobs.

 

[Pancho1939]

would you guys stop. This is a one off. Ben McCollum is obviously a great coach. He wouldnt take the rutgers job if it opened tomorrow.

 

[Mholinko]

Look - no coach can be expected to keep reloading on gems. That’s not realistic. The biggest critique on Pike for this season is that he failed to prioritize the right needs to maximize his odds of succeeding with the group he had coming in.

He abandoned his own recruiting strategy that he’s been most successful with and instead hoped to score a bunch of Cam Spencers in the portal. Ask yourselves - after Cam, who has been the next best offense-first perimeter sharp shooter Pike has recruited at RU (HS, portal, anything)? His hit rate on those types of kids has been really bad - particularly so, in the portal. Not his thing. Peter Kiss, Noah F, Acuff, PJ, Jaden Jones, GG, and so on.

You have 2 stars coming in. You don’t need super stars as long as you have a solid post defender at the 5 and some hustle kids to surround them with. The last thing we needed was to add another frosh to start at the 5 and a bunch of volume scoring mid-major kids most of which weren’t known for D at the lower level. What did we expect in hindsight?

Let's take this a step further than his portal failures

He has not recruited and developed a freshman since Geo Ron and Caleb came in

His high school recruiting has been as bad or worse than his transfer portal/NIL failures

 

[knightfan7]

“Ben McCollum and Drake are in the second round of the NCAA Tournament with 4 D2 players and we have to hear about how Rutgers just didn't have enough next to Ace Bailey and Dylan Harper to get past Relegation Wednesday at the B1G Dance”
From RU screw Podcast on X
The other BS narrative Pike is a players coach
As we constantly see players like Cam and
Mag go help other teams and win tournament games.
Since Mag got injured at the Garden it’s been all downhill for Rutgers
To the Mag is not a main reason for Rutgers success while he was here pre injury, you don’t know basketball

Drake did give us Chris Ash brrrrrrrrrrrr

Drake has 4 players from NW Missouri, 2 from Wyoming, and 1 JUCO on their roster. Doubt there was very much NIL involved.

I don't think you can pick 1 school out of 352 that's having a good year and make an argument.

Not that it matters but NW Mo has been a D2 powerhouse for a while now.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

HC Pike appears to have expected to surround them with JWill, Davis and Derkack as those “hustle kids”.

Acuff, Martini and Hayes would have been fine if the “defensive hustle kids” actually do their jobs.

Yes - and that would’ve been fine with Cliff instead of Lathan. It’s not Lathan’s fault. He’s a frosh who played starter minutes at the 5 alongside 2 other frosh in Ace and Dylan.

WE RANKED 5TH in defense last season with a backcourt comprised of Davis, GG, Noah F, and JWill absorbing 87 combined minutes. Despite what G-Unit says, Derek’s 26 minutes weren’t this big difference maker. There wasn’t some major drop off in backcourt D. Some of the players were the same, and the ones that came in were comparable to the garbage they replaced (GG and Noah similar to Acuff and Jordan). And Dylan also wasn’t great at D.

The difference was we had Cliff and Mag for 17 games up front. And Hyatt was better than his replacements too. That’s where the major drop off came from.

 

[Mholinko]

“Ben McCollum and Drake are in the second round of the NCAA Tournament with 4 D2 players and we have to hear about how Rutgers just didn't have enough next to Ace Bailey and Dylan Harper to get past Relegation Wednesday at the B1G Dance”
From RU screw Podcast on X
The other BS narrative Pike is a players coach
As we constantly see players like Cam and
Mag go help other teams and win tournament games.
Since Mag got injured at the Garden it’s been all downhill for Rutgers
To the Mag is not a main reason for Rutgers success while he was here pre injury, you don’t know basketball

these are a lot of good points but if you watched the MVC tournament multiple broadcasters and analysts pointed out that the very best D2 players are the same caliber player is high mid major players in the MVC, CUSA, etc

pointing to one win in a tournament setting does not necessarily negate the argument about NIL impact... if anything my observation yesterday was that the haves and have nots are growing further apart you are used to seeing far more nail biters and upsets than what we saw yesterday

Will Wade and Ben McCollum are also better coaches, recruiters and X & O guys than Pike... they are high major coaches in disguise

is NIL the be all end all answer to solve our problems... NO

if we have NIL will we automatically make the tournament... NO

you also have to ask yourself... how many of those Drake and McNeese players will be back next year for those schools? or did their superb play just earn them a spot on a bigger stage next year... i think we know the answer to that

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

How did all the other mid majors playing D2 kids do this season?

You have the numerator.....1
What is the denominator?

The Detroit Pistons figured it out getting Dennis Rodman at some low school, no reason other NBA teams couldn't do the same.

 

[dconifer]

How did all the other mid majors playing D2 kids do this season?

You have the numerator.....1
What is the denominator?

The Detroit Pistons figured it out getting Dennis Rodman at some low school, no reason other NBA teams couldn't do the same.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum!

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Let's take this a step further than his portal failures

He has not recruited and developed a freshman since Geo Ron and Caleb came in

His high school recruiting has been as bad or worse than his transfer portal/NIL failures

That seems a bit harsh. First of all, your leaving out MJ, Eugene and Tez who he recruited and developed in that era despite them ultimately transferring. All were contributors while they were here.

Moving to 2019 despite the sour ending - Paul was the only frosh in our 2019-20 class and he was a positive addition at that time.

Our 2020 roster was already stacked so I’m not sure how many studs you might’ve reasonably hoped to bring into the pipeline that year. By all counts though - Cliff and Mag were successful frosh recruits despite their departures. Oskar and Dean were role players - I’m not sure why anyone could reasonably have an expectation. That this class would’ve been better (is Jaden considered part of this class or the next one - he was the biggest bust)?

21 - Jalen Miller was a bust and Jaden. Disappointing

22 - wasn’t really that bad TBH. Derek could’ve played here and succeeded with a different surrounding cast. Wolf was ok. It was lack luster but particularly so because of the prior season. Can’t have 2 back to back like that.

23 - big bust with GG. Davis a fine role player and only a sophomore. We probably shouldve taken more frosh.

24 - frosh class was solid this year

 

[scottsdaleal]

would you guys stop. This is a one off. Ben McCollum is obviously a great coach. He wouldnt take the rutgers job if it opened tomorrow.

Agreed. The guy has a record of 426-94 and has won multiple national titles.

 

[MCKnight2004]

I’ll add - anyone who wants to focus on money - the only thing we possibly could’ve / should’ve done differently was point blank prioritize keeping Cliff at Rutgers above all else. Those conversations should’ve happened during last season. He should’ve been told not to sweat the current year - the following season would be special and he would be the nucleus with the two star frosh. Every penny of NIL that we had should’ve gone to that.

Because guess what? If Cliff stays, we start the offseason with JMike, Dylan, J Will, Ace, Cliff and Ogbole as the back up center. We have Dylan Grant and Bryce Dortch coming in at forward. Let’s assume Lathan changes his mind if Cliff stays. Fine. So what? Martini still comes in this situation and is a fine rotation piece. From there, whatever we get in the portal to fill out the backcourt we get for limited funds. It wouldn’t be worse than what we ended up with in Jordan, Acuff and PJ.

This is the correct view point! Cliff would’ve solved a lot of our defensive issues. And Grant, Martini, Ogbole and Dortch off bench, with another low level portal guard/wing find, would’ve.

I’ll add - anyone who wants to focus on money - the only thing we possibly could’ve / should’ve done differently was point blank prioritize keeping Cliff at Rutgers above all else. Those conversations should’ve happened during last season. He should’ve been told not to sweat the current year - the following season would be special and he would be the nucleus with the two star frosh. Every penny of NIL that we had should’ve gone to that.

Because guess what? If Cliff stays, we start the offseason with JMike, Dylan, J Will, Ace, Cliff and Ogbole as the back up center. We have Dylan Grant and Bryce Dortch coming in at forward. Let’s assume Lathan changes his mind if Cliff stays. Fine. So what? Martini still comes in this situation and is a fine rotation piece. From there, whatever we get in the portal to fill out the backcourt we get for limited funds. It wouldn’t be worse than what we ended up with in Jordan, Acuff and PJ.

This take is very good. Cliff would’ve solved a lot of our defensive issues. Now who knows maybe he wanted a change of scenery and chance to evolve his game, which hasn’t happened at all. So to me, it was purely a pay day move for Cliff. If we would’ve offered the same, I think he stays. And a bench of Ogbole, Grant, Martini and Dortch, and a portal cheap guard wing would’ve been better constructed and led to a few more wins and a likely tourney appearance at the least.

 

[dconifer]

would you guys stop. This is a one off. Ben McCollum is obviously a great coach. He wouldnt take the rutgers job if it opened tomorrow.

Because he knows you guys would call him "The Drake."

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Quod Erat Demonstrandum!

over my head

 

[Mholinko]

That seems a bit harsh. First of all, your leaving out MJ, Eugene and Tez who he recruited and developed in that era despite them ultimately transferring. All were contributors while they were here.

Moving to 2019 despite the sour ending - Paul was the only frosh in our 2019-20 class and he was a positive addition at that time.

Our 2020 roster was already stacked so I’m not sure how many studs you might’ve reasonably hoped to bring into the pipeline that year. By all counts though - Cliff and Mag were successful frosh recruits despite their departures. Oskar and Dean were role players - I’m not sure why anyone could reasonably have an expectation. That this class would’ve been better (is Jaden considered part of this class or the next one - he was the biggest bust)?

21 - Jalen Miller was a bust and Jaden. Disappointing

22 - wasn’t really that bad TBH. Derek could’ve played here and succeeded with a different surrounding cast. Wolf was ok. It was lack luster but particularly so because of the prior season. Can’t have 2 back to back like that.

23 - big bust with GG. Davis a fine role player and only a sophomore. We probably shouldve taken more frosh.

24 - frosh class was solid this year

thats fair i was more generalizing they were the same era from 2018-2019 classes

you absolutely cannot whiff 3 years in a row on recruiting though thats ultimately somewhere between 4-6 years worth of roster depth wasted and missed out on

and if you cant make up for it in the portal then youre where we are now

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

This is the correct view point! Cliff would’ve solved a lot of our defensive issues. And Grant, Martini, Ogbole and Dortch off bench, with another low level portal guard/wing find, would’ve.


This take is very good. Cliff would’ve solved a lot of our defensive issues. Now who knows maybe he wanted a change of scenery and chance to evolve his game, which hasn’t happened at all. So to me, it was purely a pay day move for Cliff. If we would’ve offered the same, I think he stays. And a bench of Ogbole, Grant, Martini and Dortch, and a portal cheap guard wing would’ve been better constructed and led to a few more wins and a likely tourney appearance at the least.

This is all theory.....

Year 4 Cliff wasn't Year 1-3 Cliff in terms of his intensity of play. There were reports he wasn't a hard worker in practice any more. A 5th year at the same place would have been a stretch to think that would have improved.

Also B1G coaches aren't dumb. Painter still would have been able to isolate and get RU in situations where Cliff was far from the basket.

He definitely helps as a rim protector...A LOT....but it wouldn't be an OK defense woes are solved type of thing.

He wouldn't have allowed Ace and Dylan to be completely off the hook for their bad defense (Ace worse than Dylan)

 

[dconifer]

over my head

Mine too, but it's what math heads say after a mathematical proof...

 

[goru7]

“Ben McCollum and Drake are in the second round of the NCAA Tournament with 4 D2 players and we have to hear about how Rutgers just didn't have enough next to Ace Bailey and Dylan Harper to get past Relegation Wednesday at the B1G Dance”
From RU screw Podcast on X
The other BS narrative Pike is a players coach
As we constantly see players like Cam and
Mag go help other teams and win tournament games.
Since Mag got injured at the Garden it’s been all downhill for Rutgers
To the Mag is not a main reason for Rutgers success while he was here pre injury, you don’t know basketball

Don’t know why you are killing Pike about Mag. He was the one who recruited him , believed in him , made him a huge part of our defense and press. Then the NCAA ****ed us by excluding us from the tourney. Last year, do not know what happened with Mag but it was apparent he didn’t want to be here any longer. Which really sucks because if Mag and Cliff came back , we wouldn’t have to listen to your bullshit about this year’s team getting to the dance. One of the hardest things to do is retain your older players in this transfer portal era ( Mag and Cliff wanted their payday ) and the transfer portal was just brutal losing Mag and Cliff and getting our 4 failed guys.
Not one a serious consistent contributor. The freshman class was a great recruiting coup but the loss of those 2 and the failure to get a rim protector doomed our season. But we weren’t far away , because we lost a lot of close games and showed we could play with high level teams , teams seeded 2 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 where we were 2-4 but with a few different bounces could have been 5-1 . It wasn’t the train wreck or the narrative you spew it was failure on defense , lack of a rim protector which affected the defense and the failure of the transfers, who all drastically underachieved.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Mine too, but it's what math heads say after a mathematical proof...

ah....now it is barely over my head

 

[fluoxetine]

“Ben McCollum and Drake are in the second round of the NCAA Tournament with 4 D2 players and we have to hear about how Rutgers just didn't have enough next to Ace Bailey and Dylan Harper to get past Relegation Wednesday at the B1G Dance”
From RU screw Podcast on X
The other BS narrative Pike is a players coach
As we constantly see players like Cam and
Mag go help other teams and win tournament games.
Since Mag got injured at the Garden it’s been all downhill for Rutgers
To the Mag is not a main reason for Rutgers success while he was here pre injury, you don’t know basketball

Cool

 

[socaldave]

Does not matter who is n the portal as long as Pike is coach
He has to go!

 

[Yeah Baby]

Really dumb thread. My eyes hurt.

 

[fluoxetine]

Does not matter who is n the portal as long as Pike is coach
He has to go!

Cool

 

[rubs]

Let's take this a step further than his portal failures

He has not recruited and developed a freshman since Geo Ron and Caleb came in

His high school recruiting has been as bad or worse than his transfer portal/NIL failures

He is a very poor evaluator of talent. His time has passed

 

[fluoxetine]

He is a very poor evaluator of talent. His time has passed

Cool

 

[socaldave]

One guy would have made a difference on this year’s RU squad MAG

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

One guy would have made a difference on this year’s RU squad MAG

For sure. Him or Cliff - any addition to the post would’ve been very helpful. Mag would’ve allowed us to press more too.

 

[bitnez]

Two years ago Michigan had two guys drafted in the lottery and lost an All American to the portal. They were horrible last year and now this year are in the sweet 16. Yes, I know they have way more NIL than us but their best players came from Yale, FAU, and a PG who averaged only 6 pts at Auburn.

Pike needs to stick to his plan and bring in the right guys for him. It doesn’t matter if they averaged 5 or 15 pts ppg — just bring in dogs. That’s what Pike knows and quite honestly might be all he can afford anyway. But as someone said, those guys won’t command the big money.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Two years ago Michigan had two guys drafted in the lottery and lost an All American to the portal. They were horrible last year and now this year are in the sweet 16. Yes, I know they have way more NIL than us but their best players came from Yale, FAU, and a PG who averaged only 6 pts at Auburn.

Pike needs to stick to his plan and bring in the right guys for him. It doesn’t matter if they averaged 5 or 15 pts ppg — just bring in dogs. That’s what Pike knows and quite honestly might be all he can afford anyway. But as someone said, those guys won’t command the big money.

This 100%. It’s easier said than done, but for whatever reason, we didn’t even try. We made our top priority trying to land another Cam Spencer rather than finding another Mag along with the best possible replacement for Cliff possible. And Pike isn’t great at assessing midmajor backcourt talent, so we bust on that goal anyway. But really - there weren’t that many minutes to go around in the backcourt anyway so it was a dumb priority.

Meanwhile Cliff, Mag, Hyatt, Oskar - 4 veteran senior frontcourt defenders depart. I get the latter 2 were nothing special on D but they were still 2 experienced guys in our system. We bring in frosh, Martini and PJ (one of the worst defensive efficiency guys in D1) to replace them and wonder why we had no answer all season in the post.

 

[bitnez]

This 100%. It’s easier said than done, but for whatever reason, we didn’t even try. We made our top priority trying to land another Cam Spencer rather than finding another Mag along with the best possible replacement for Cliff possible. And Pike isn’t great at assessing midmajor backcourt talent, so we bust on that goal anyway. But really - there weren’t that many minutes to go around in the backcourt anyway so it was a dumb priority.

Meanwhile Cliff, Mag, Hyatt, Oskar - 4 veteran senior frontcourt defenders depart. I get the latter 2 were nothing special on D but they were still 2 experienced guys in our system. We bring in frosh, Martini and PJ (one of the worst defensive efficiency guys in D1) to replace them and wonder why we had no answer all season in the post.

I truly think Pike believed he had a good Iowa team on his hands. Spread the floor, score at will, and find key defensive stops. As we saw we didn’t and neither did Fran this year. But, I think that was what Pike was aiming for.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I truly think Pike believed he had a good Iowa team on his hands. Spread the floor, score at will, and find key defensive stops. As we saw we didn’t and neither did Fran this year. But, I think that was what Pike was aiming for.

If so - it was a bad assumption for a coach who hasn’t excelled on offense with x and o stuff.

I have my doubts though. I think his number one goal was to make sure Dylan and Ace succeeded on offense. He wanted to make sure he surrounded them by guys who were a threat to score and needed to be defended on the offensive end (he didn’t seem to want the Caleb / Mag types seemingly feeling he had enough weaker shooters in J Mike and and J Will). So he brought in 3 sharp shooters and a thrasher type in Jordan who can finish and draw fouls in penetration if given enough space.

The problem was we were good but not great at offense and the D couldn’t stop anyone.