GAME 12 PRINCETON: Season slipping away as every game is exactly the same

[Saint Puppy]

yeah i could see that but remember this school was also was resisting to can Jordan or Hill or Flood or Ash...different conference but somethings tend to stay the same

thank god they are not doing rennovation and reseats soon but i do think because of this years sellout or announced sellout..they will raise prices once agaiin..let them and watch people drop out

Yup - for everybody complaining about how they don't have good seats for the past few years, - I think things are about to open up big time. We are about to fall off a cliff - we obviously have not figured out NIL, and feels like we are going back to Pre-Pike days in terms of success. We haven't even begun the tear down of the coaching staff that pretty much looks inevitable at this point - the only question is how long do we take to get there?

 

[SirScarlet]

Derkack is a bright spot. They don't count this as a stat but I pay attention to this.

He forced 7 fouls on him today. 7! I think 6 were shooting fouls. He is very good at getting the other team in foul trouble.

No idea why when Lee, Peters and one other guy had 4 fouls we did not just straight to the hoop the remainder of the game.

Pike never does

Baldwin played the final 12 mins with 4 fouls we didn't go after him once....He took the final shot (which didn't go in)

Pike is turning out to be as stubborn as Greg

 

[biazza38]

Pike never does

Baldwin played the final 12 mins with 4 fouls we didn't go after him once....He took the final shot (which didn't go in)

Pike is turning out to be as stubborn as Greg

Don’t put Greg in the same boat and Pike. GS would not fail this miserably if he had two of the best players on his team. GS also knows how to use the portal. I don’t think Pike is stubborn. I think he’s slow adapting. He has also been a subpar recruiter ever since we landed Cliff

 

[SirScarlet]

Don’t put Greg in the same boat and Pike. GS would not fail this miserably if he had two of the best players on his team. GS also knows how to use the portal. I don’t think Pike is stubborn. I think he’s slow adapting. He has also been a subpar recruiter ever since we landed Cliff

Subpar recruiter since Cliff?

Ummmm....

Oh, forget it...

 

[fluoxetine]

We aren’t loosing because of our offense. We are losing because of piss poor defense and rebounding.

While this is generally correct, our defense is not so bad that it could not be overcome if we actually had really good offense. UConn is almost as bad at defense as we are. But on top of poor defense we have mediocre offense as well. It feels like we are scoring infinity points compared to what we are used to but we are #69 in offense.

 

[fluoxetine]

Don’t put Greg in the same boat and Pike. GS would not fail this miserably if he had two of the best players on his team. GS also knows how to use the portal. I don’t think Pike is stubborn. I think he’s slow adapting. He has also been a subpar recruiter ever since we landed Cliff

(1) We don’t have two of the best players! We have one.
(2) He wasn’t assigned his roster. The recruiting and the coaching is one package and you have to evaluate it together
(3) Regarding (2) you seem to want to have it both ways because you are blaming him for failing with “good players” but also complaining that the players he recruited aren’t good enough. It can’t be both.

I stick to my evaluation of Pike which is that he is a coach who gets a lot out of his players generally and that recruiting is still the problem.

 

[biazza38]

Subpar recruiter since Cliff?

Ummmm....

Oh, forget it...

We have the 2024 class yes, but that was NIL influenced. Between the Cliff year and now we brought in wolf, Simpson, Palmquist, Reiber, Chol, Janmichael Davis, Griffin (I’m sure I’m missing others). We’re in this mess because we tried to flip our roster in the portal after our recruiting was garbage for several years. Tell me where I’m wrong here. I’ll hang up and listen

 

[biazza38]

(1) We don’t have two of the best players! We have one.
(2) He wasn’t assigned his roster. The recruiting and the coaching is one package and you have to evaluate it together
(3) Regarding (2) you seem to want to have it both ways because you are blaming him for failing with “good players” but also complaining that the players he recruited aren’t good enough. It can’t be both.

I stick to my evaluation of Pike which is that he is a coach who gets a lot out of his players generally and that recruiting is still the problem.

See my post above. Recruiting was trash for several years in a row. People tried pointing it out.

 

[DHajekRC84]

Less than 2 years ago we were one of the best teams in college basketball.

What lol? Less than 2 years ago is last year and we went 15-17.
The year before that we went 19-15 and didn't make the dance at 10-10 conf. Why's that? Because we weren't a great team. We finished losing 8 of the last 11 (Hofstra beat us at OUR place while the #1 seed)
The year before that we made the play-in game (and lost ) while losing to Depaul, Lafayette, Umass, and the hall and finished losing 5 of the last 7.

I'll stop there.

 

[DHajekRC84]

He does a bunch of good things and then does stuff he shouldn't. We really need him to be a little more efficient.

I was also hoping that we'd get Lee or Pierce out of the game. Did we even try?

They played the last 6 mins of the game with THREE guys with 4 fouls. No. we DIDN'T even try.

 

[bac2therac]

We have the 2024 class yes, but that was NIL influenced. Between the Cliff year and now we brought in wolf, Simpson, Palmquist, Reiber, Chol, Janmichael Davis, Griffin (I’m sure I’m missing others). We’re in this mess because we tried to flip our roster in the portal after our recruiting was garbage for several years. Tell me where I’m wrong here. I’ll hang up and listen

MAJOR failures with Jaden Jones and Gavin Griffiths. These were heralded in their respective recruiting classes

 

[fluoxetine]

See my post above. Recruiting was trash for several years in a row. People tried pointing it out.

Well I agree. And that is still the problem, huge win that is Dylan Harper aside.

 

[RUfromNJ]

I think the only variable is just how bad it gets next season. It could be very bad with 100 level seats opening up big time and a Littlepage-Jordan level record. Lathan is the only B1G level player that we have even remote hopes of retaining (although I’d be surprised if he stayed) it doesn’t look like any of the incoming freshman will be B1G ready and the holdovers are just bad. That means Pike has to snatch at least 3 B1G starters from the portal. Good luck with that. He couldn’t get one this year.

Either way, we’ll be told next year’s team is his best ever, all offseason.

 

[Mr Magoo]

Either way, we’ll be told next year’s team is his best ever, all offseason.

…and next year’s Ralph Agee from Hofstra’s bench is a man amongst boys, but even more importantly he’s a great teammate

 

[Ridge 22]

Well I agree. And that is still the problem, huge win that is Dylan Harper aside.

Ace and Dylan both fell to us because of preexisting relationships. Outside of that, they are not here. Unicorn situations for both that won't repeat. Adjusted for that and recruiting has been awful

 

[Mr Magoo]

Ave and Dylan both fell to us because of preexisting relationships. Outside of that, they are not here. Unicorn situations for both that won't repeat. Adjusted for that and recruiting has been awful

Yup. Recently, Mag barely plays at BYU, Griffiths barely plays at Nebraska, Jalen Miller plays at Oral Roberts, Reiber only recently began starting at Charlotte, Simpson is starting at St. Joe’s, Chol is at a community college, and the players he brought in last year can’t crack a lineup that needs rebounding and defense…yet that’s their supposed strength. I’m sure there are others.

 

[fluoxetine]

Ave and Dylan both fell to us because of preexisting relationships. Outside of that, they are not here. Unicorn situations for both that won't repeat. Adjusted for that and recruiting has been awful

You don’t adjust for anything. That kind of stuff happens all over the place. Ace and Dylan count.

The problem is that even with them we don’t actually have a good roster.

 

[Ridge 22]

You don’t adjust for anything. That kind of stuff happens all over the place. Ace and Dylan count.

The problem is that even with them we don’t actually have a good roster.

You do. It's called context. But regardless, even with them recruiting has been poor. And the portal even worse.

 

[fluoxetine]

MAJOR failures with Jaden Jones and Gavin Griffiths. These were heralded in their respective recruiting classes

Jaden Jones lol. Was he actually rated that highly? I thought he was barely a four star.

I feel the problem is not that we got a couple players like Jones. The problem is that our recruiting is generally so bad that we get excited for players like Jones. Those kind of low four star kids are a dime a dozen at schools that actually win at basketball.

 

[fluoxetine]

You do. It's called context. But regardless, even with them recruiting has been poor. And the portal even worse.

Part of recruiting is having relationships. I don’t expect to get a lot of top five players or anything going forward but he deserves the credit for getting them. And the blame for putting a #80 quality team out there with them on it.

 

[Ridge 22]

Part of recruiting is having relationships. I don’t expect to get a lot of top five players or anything going forward but he deserves the credit for getting them. And the blame for putting a #80 quality team out there with them on it.

However you want to score it, it's not good enough

 

[SirScarlet]

We have the 2024 class yes, but that was NIL influenced. Between the Cliff year and now we brought in wolf, Simpson, Palmquist, Reiber, Chol, Janmichael Davis, Griffin (I’m sure I’m missing others). We’re in this mess because we tried to flip our roster in the portal after our recruiting was garbage for several years. Tell me where I’m wrong here. I’ll hang up and listen

Sorry but it doesn't work like that. You don't get to Cherry pick and say that the greatest class we've ever gotten doesnt count.

He signed five top 150 players.

You don't get to say he's a bad recruiter.

 

[SirScarlet]

However you want to score it, it's not good enough

Fair...but saying it's due to Pike being a bad recruiter is just wrong.

Arguing that he maybe isn't the best at constructing rosters. Okay that's something I can be down with. But the facts are not your friend if you are one of the people saying he's a bad recruiter.

 

[fluoxetine]

Sorry but it doesn't work like that. You don't get to Cherry pick and say that the greatest class we've ever gotten doesnt count.

He signed five top 150 players.

You don't get to say he's a bad recruiter.

Fair...but saying it's due to Pike being a bad recruiter is just wrong.

Arguing that he maybe isn't the best at constructing rosters. Okay that's something I can be down with. But the facts are not your friend if you are one of the people saying he's a bad recruiter.

Recruiting the right players also falls under recruiting imo.

But anyway I used to have this argument in reverse. When the team was making the tournament and people tried to tell me Pike was a bad recruiter and a bad coach and I said “well clearly he’s doing at least one them well; the team is winning”

Now it’s kind of the opposite. He can’t really be doing a good job recruiting and a good job coaching because if he was then the team would actually be good.

 

[bac2therac]

Jaden Jones lol. Was he actually rated that highly? I thought he was barely a four star.

I feel the problem is not that we got a couple players like Jones. The problem is that our recruiting is generally so bad that we get excited for players like Jones. Those kind of low four star kids are a dime a dozen at schools that actually win at basketball.

Was he ranked in the 80s...that big time for us. Also Pike took Hyatt and to me we got stuck with him

 

[Ridge 22]

Fair...but saying it's due to Pike being a bad recruiter is just wrong.

Arguing that he maybe isn't the best at constructing rosters. Okay that's something I can be down with. But the facts are not your friend if you are one of the people saying he's a bad recruiter.

He's an underwhelming recruiter overall I would say. And his transfer portal guys have largely been massive busts (outside of Cam who he couldn't keep). His roster building is simply not good enough. The rest is noise to me.

 

[SirScarlet]

Recruiting the right players also falls under recruiting imo.

But anyway I used to have this argument in reverse. When the team was making the tournament and people tried to tell me Pike was a bad recruiter and a bad coach and I said “well clearly he’s doing at least one them well; the team is winning”

Now it’s kind of the opposite. He can’t really be doing a good job recruiting and a good job coaching because if he was then the team would actually be good.

I'm not sure I have the patience for this argument but by every measure we had a top three recruiting class last year. And the argument to be made is that the coach that's in charge of that is a bad recruiter? Please take that to the main board and see how that goes down.

Now, I get the nuances you are making... I would put that under the category of whether or not he's a good head coach. And we can have a very good discussion on that. (just not for me today...lol...i am still in mourning)

But I think the facts are very clear on recruiting and I am not saying he's the greatest recruiter that ever lived but I think talking to an average basketball fan and telling them that Pike is a bad recruiter will get you laughed at.

 

[SirScarlet]

He's an underwhelming recruiter overall I would say. And his transfer portal guys have largely been massive busts (outside of Cam who he couldn't keep). His roster building is simply not good enough. The rest is noise to me.

I would not argue with you and have not argued with anyone that is challenging how good he is at building rosters. That's much more complex and nuanced on whether or not he's a good or bad recruiter. Thats a discussion on if hes a good HC or not. Fair argument for sure on that point.

but Saying Pike is a bad recruiter is simply wrong.

That's not an opinion... that's a fact.

 

[fluoxetine]

I'm not sure I have the patience for this argument but by every measure we had a top three recruiting class last year. And the argument to be made is that the coach that's in charge of that is a bad recruiter? Please take that to the main board and see how that goes down.

Now, I get the nuances you are making... I would put that under the category of whether or not he's a good head coach. And we can have a very good discussion on that. (just not for me today...lol...i am still in mourning)

But I think the facts are very clear on recruiting and I am not saying he's the greatest recruiter that ever lived but I think talking to an average basketball fan and telling them that Pike is a bad recruiter will get you laughed at.

Meh at this point I think we are mostly agreeing except on what to count as “recruiting” lol

 

[biazza38]

I would not argue with you and have not argued with anyone that is challenging how good he is at building rosters. That's much more complex and nuanced on whether or not he's a good or bad recruiter. Thats a discussion on if hes a good HC or not. Fair argument for sure on that point.

but Saying Pike is a bad recruiter is simply wrong.

That's not an opinion... that's a fact.

He landed two B1G players (out of HS) from 2020 to 2023. That’s why we’re in this mess, because he surrounded Ace and Dylan with nothing. That’s a subpar recruiter
To basically be handed Dylan and Ace by outside NIL forces and still be this mediocre is truly impressive. His recruiting is inconsistent at best

 

[Ridge 22]

I would not argue with you and have not argued with anyone that is challenging how good he is at building rosters. That's much more complex and nuanced on whether or not he's a good or bad recruiter. Thats a discussion on if hes a good HC or not. Fair argument for sure on that point.

but Saying Pike is a bad recruiter is simply wrong.

That's not an opinion... that's a fact.

Honestly not trying to argue with you, but what do you view as his big recruiting wins outside of Ace, Dylan (both handed to him) and Cliff? That's 3 players in 8 years. Maybe I am just not remembering them, but the successes seem few and far between. Tons of busts and the 'big time' recruits like GG and Jaden Jones completely busted and couldn't get out of here fast enough.

 

[RUJMM78]

In discussing offense there are two issues, namely recruiting and offensive system utilized. Recruiting is straight forward looking at high school ranking and then college performance.At Rutgers the problem is far more difficult because there really is no offensive system.Its really playground basketball with the player dribbling the ball likely to take the shot without passing to another player.Stationary shooters like Hayes aren't properly utilized because there is no player or ball movement to get open shots in the corners.

 

[fluoxetine]

He landed two B1G players (out of HS) from 2020 to 2023. That’s why we’re in this mess, because he surrounded Ace and Dylan with nothing. That’s a subpar recruiter
To basically be handed Dylan and Ace by outside NIL forces and still be this mediocre is truly impressive. His recruiting is inconsistent at best

I’m going to have to post this a million times. Ace Bailey, as he exists here in December 2024, is not a great college basketball player. I’m not sure he’s even a good college basketball player. People keep saying we are losing with two superstars. If we actually had two superstars we would be good.

(And I am not trashing Bailey. I think he is going to be great. But he’s just too raw now.)

 

[fluoxetine]

If we actually squandered a bunch of our resources on getting Bailey for one year I would honestly argue it was a recruiting mistake at this point. But I really have no idea how the NIL resources work (I know, i know, they got outside money) so I can’t make that statement with confidence.

 

[biazza38]

I’m going to have to post this a million times. Ace Bailey, as he exists here in December 2024, is not a great college basketball player. I’m not sure he’s even a good college basketball player. People keep saying we are losing with two superstars. If we actually had two superstars we would be good.

(And I am not trashing Bailey. I think he is going to be great. But he’s just too raw now.)

Ace Bailey can make any shot on the court. Is he streaking at times yes. But please also keep in mind that we do nothing to get him open. To even insinuate that he’s not a good college player is very hyperbolic. Yes, he is raw. I agree with you there.

 

[Ridge 22]

If we actually squandered a bunch of our resources on getting Bailey for one year I would honestly argue it was a recruiting mistake at this point. But I really have no idea how the NIL resources work (I know, i know, they got outside money) so I can’t make that statement with confidence.

The problem is not understanding this is the year to go all in and surrounding them with better players.

 

[fluoxetine]

Ace Bailey can make any shot on the court. Is he streaking at times yes. But please also keep in mind that we do nothing to get him open. To even insinuate that he’s not a good college player is very hyperbolic. Yes, is raw. I agree with you there.

Eh, fair. But he is not great. Not yet.

We do not run the worlds greatest offense, no, but that hasn’t stopped players from being productive here.

 

[fluoxetine]

The problem is not understanding this is the year to go all in and surrounding them with better players.

Why do you think he didn’t understand? Why do you think he had the resources to do this? If he had “all in” type resources he probably doesn’t let Cliff go, right?

 

[Ridge 22]

Why do you think he didn’t understand? Why do you think he had the resources to do this? If he had “all in” type resources he probably doesn’t let Cliff go, right?

Because the mods said the resources were there. Lathan threatened Pike and Pike stood down. Working out well, along with the rest of the busts. These guys can't even get on the floor on a bad team desperately seeking help

 

[fluoxetine]

Because the mods said the resources were there. Lathan threatened Pike and Pike stood down. Working out well, along with the rest of the busts. These guys can't even get on the floor on a bad team desperately seeking help

I think this is a misunderstanding of what the mods said. As has been discussed, it’s possible we passed on some lower level center possibilities because of Lathan (though I think the implication that he threatened someone I think is overstated) but the idea that we didn’t keep cliff or sign a proven good center because of Sommerville is ridiculous imo. And even if it were true it wouldn’t explain why we didn’t spend on the rest of the roster. The simplest explanation that makes the most sense is that we simply did not have the resources.

Also, the mods quite frankly say a lot of stuff and much of it turns out to not really be true.