Manasquan deserved to win. But the lawyer thing is pathetic.
Camden - Manasquan
- Thread starter S_Janowski
- Start date
Because two of the refs had left the court and the third on the way with Manasquan winning the game. Then the Camden coach and athletic supervisor forced the refs back in the court to change the call. As you say, once they leave the court the game is over.
Where's the part where the refs were bribed or cheated? Surely that's missing, lol. It was an eff up. it happens. Let's move on.
Getting to the sideline is not "leaving the court"...the ref that made the call was looking for help on the play (seen both visually, and by his game report)...there is no "forcing the refs back on the court", the refs never left the court (two of them were on their way off, but never got there).
They did plenty wrong. A coach grabs a ref and pulls him back onto the court so others can harass the refs to change the call. The athletic director of Camden was part of this. Not the players but the Camden adults did plenty wrong
Or my favorite from this thread, that they "made a business decision" so that they didn't get attacked in the parking lot.
It does happen . But man it sucks. Those Manasquan kids don’t get that moment in life back
The issue though is that the call was initially made correctly; it was overturned over a minute later basically on the opinion of one of the officials. It's like they went out of the way to get it wrong.
Joe P.
Just spit out my beer laughing ….
Let’s just say the classic Lloyd Benson line comes to mind: “Senator, you’re no JFK.”
In the case of your post I can unequivocally state: “ hinson32, you’re no expert.”
Thanks for the laugh 😂
Respectfully you need to scroll up a bit and watch the video of what happened after the game ended. The refs were in their way out of the gym. At least two were off the court fully. One ref was grabbed and the forced back. Harassed until the call was changed. These are Camden adults.
Again, there is no such thing as "overturning" a call with Federation basketball mechanics...the ref that made the call wasn't positive on it, and asked for help. If he's sure of his call and sticks by it, the game ends and Camden loses, but unfortunately he wasn't.
"Off the court fully"...do you know what that means? It doesn't mean crossing the sideline. Refs that are at the table haven't "left the court fully".
And believe me, I've watched it plenty...the statement that the ref was "grabbed and forced back" would be more accurately described as "tapped on the arm/shoulder and pointed to his partner, who started talking to him".
Respectfully, again you’re in a fantasy world on what happened. The video is posted in an earlier post. Also refs head immediately to the locker room after a game and no adults are to interfere with them. In this case, one coach grabs a ref and the athletic director blocks their path away. Then forces them back to the court where they are further harassed to change the call. None of that is permissible. The refs were right one their way to the locker room with the game over. Two refs crossed the sideline. Then they were blocked and one grabbed. The game was over with Manasquan winning and then a bunch of against the rules stuff happened, then the call was changed.
Same, a few of their different coaches are among my favorite people
They called the basket 'good', were starting to leave, then reconvened and called it no good a few minutes later. I don't think they were 'cheating' or wanted Manasquan to lose; I do think the one official gave Camden a legacy call and the other officials were not going to undermine him (I've seen it numerous times in football and had officials literally tell me they disagreed with the head ref on calls but weren't going to go against them). How the whole thing went down is egregious; it wasn't a 'bam-bam' judgement call made right on the spot that they just 'got wrong'. That happens and no one is perfect. In this case it's like they went out of the way to get it wrong.
Joe P.
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I'm in a fantasy world? Here is the video below again. Tell me at what second mark in the video the referees have "fully left the court"? You say that two of them left the court...one of those two made it about 2 feet over the sideline, and was calling the ref that was getting ready to leave back over to discuss the play. And the Camden Athletic director (I've been told it's the guy in blue) doesn't come close to "blocking their path" (and if he does, can you point out where it happens in this video)?
It was a terrible call...but making stuff up about it doesn't help anything.
Nothing shady. I take the state's lack of enforcement against Manasquan to be gospel over you. Sounds like your coaching friends need to figure out a better way of winning like Manasquan has done. Tell them to stop being lazy and start winning.
At the 10 second mark the first referee crosses the sideline and is heading to the locker room. He is grabbed at this moment by a member of the Camden coaching staff. At the 13 second mark the second ref crosses the sideline. With the third right behind them. At this point they are blocked from leaving by Camden adults including the Camden AD who is in purple, who at the very least allows this to go on. Interfering with refs exiting to court is fully against NJSIAA rules. As I said, when the game ended Manasquan won. Then a bunch of things that are not permissible happened AND then the call was changed. Until that moment, one ref clearly signals basket is good. Both other refs with no signal. No refs waived the basket off until the rules were broken by adults.
The games was over. Manasquan, the winner. The refs were well in their way to the locker room. Save for a number of illegal actions by the Camden adults. Where the refs were, in the least, interfered with from leaving the premise. And then, only after a series of non permissible actions by Camden adults, was the call changed.
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FWIW, I checked the Fed rule book and referees have left the court when all officials have "left the visual confines of the playing area". The case book also has these relevant examples...
SITUATION B:
Time expires to end the game with a score of 64 to 61. Immediately following the signal to end the fourth quarter, the officials are moving off the court toward a door to their dressing room. The referee enters the door and is in the hallway to the locker room, but the umpire is still in the court area when he/she notices the scorer frantically trying to get the officials’ attention due to a possible scorebook error.
RULING: Since one of the officials has not left the visual confines of the playing area, the game jurisdiction has not ended. The officials may work with scorer’s table personnel to rectify any errors.
SITUATION C:
Team B leads by a point with seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1 releases the ball on a try, but the noise level makes it difficult for the covering official (umpire) to hear the horn. The umpire signals a successful goal. The referee definitely hears the horn before A1 releases the ball, but does not realize the umpire counted the goal. The officials leave the visual confines of the playing area and are not aware of the controversy until the scorer comes to the officials’ dressing room.
RULING: Even though the referee could have canceled the score if the officials had conferred before leaving, once the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area, the final score is official and no change can be made. In situations such as this, it is imperative that officials communicate with each other and that they do not leave until any problem regarding scoring or timing has been resolved.
SITUATION B:
Time expires to end the game with a score of 64 to 61. Immediately following the signal to end the fourth quarter, the officials are moving off the court toward a door to their dressing room. The referee enters the door and is in the hallway to the locker room, but the umpire is still in the court area when he/she notices the scorer frantically trying to get the officials’ attention due to a possible scorebook error.
RULING: Since one of the officials has not left the visual confines of the playing area, the game jurisdiction has not ended. The officials may work with scorer’s table personnel to rectify any errors.
SITUATION C:
Team B leads by a point with seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1 releases the ball on a try, but the noise level makes it difficult for the covering official (umpire) to hear the horn. The umpire signals a successful goal. The referee definitely hears the horn before A1 releases the ball, but does not realize the umpire counted the goal. The officials leave the visual confines of the playing area and are not aware of the controversy until the scorer comes to the officials’ dressing room.
RULING: Even though the referee could have canceled the score if the officials had conferred before leaving, once the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area, the final score is official and no change can be made. In situations such as this, it is imperative that officials communicate with each other and that they do not leave until any problem regarding scoring or timing has been resolved.
I think this situation is (at least in NJ) definitely going to be used for training purposes and probably to make procedural adjustments on what to do (they should have immediately cleared the court and then convened at midcourt/made it clear they had to discuss the last play for a final ruling) in these types of situations.
Joe P.
It's more than just "think"...I have a friend that does high level soccer in Pennsylvania (has done State Title games) and he talked about this last night with a FIFA/MLS level referee friend about learning opportunities from this. This will be a teaching moment beyond NJ, and beyond just basketball.
Where does it say it is permissible to interfere with the refs leaving the visual confines of the playing area? At least two of the refs left those confines with the third on his way until they were illegally interfered with. Until the refs were illegally interfered with Manasquan won the game. One can’t interfere with the referees leaving and then also claim they didn’t leave as per the rule.
You clearly don't understand what "visual confines" means in this instance....none of those officials left the visual confines of the court (as anyone that does understand what it means would tell you).
When someone is becoming an official, do they discuss/review aspects like implicit/emotional bias and working to stay neutral? I really cannot stand the whole 'the refs cheated' cliche but I do think officials can definitely be prone to aspects like 'legacy bias' and/or the 'superstar calls'.
Joe P.
I imagine that officials messed up calls often and way worse than this before there were cameras everywhere . This really sucks for Manasquan. But it happened before , happened this time and it will happen again.
Not in the early stages (then again, not something you need to worry about early as you don't have many "superstars" playing middle school/freshman basketball or Babe Ruth baseball which are the games you're getting when you start officiating). The training is a lot more focused on the rules, mechanics, timing, etc.
Honestly, I think that "bias" is a tough thing to teach...you drill that you need to be careful not to give that superstar player or program "x" too many calls, and suddenly you're overthinking it and going the other way. Personally, I'm all about hustling to get in position, having a really deep knowledge of the rules, working well with coaches/players to manage a game as best I can, trusting what I see, and asking for help when I think I need it (or it's appropriate). And of course avoiding any potential conflicts of interest.
I don't get too emotional or care what's happened in the past with a certain player or coach, I'll just start with a clean slate and do the best I can (back in the days of doing Legion Baseball, there would often be the awkward moment of ejecting a coach, then having him meet you at ground rules for the 2nd game of the doubleheader 30 minutes later).
I'm starting to think Erial_Lion is the white ref
I'm not...haven't done a basketball game now in 19 years...down to just baseball now.
My guess is those 3 guys want nothing to do with anything that makes them think about what happened right now, and want to crawl in a hole.
who feels worse...the guy who changed his call, or the guy who pushed him to do it ?
It's like asking what you'd rather be mauled by, a bear or a lion.
I'll go with Lion, and the guy who influenced him to change the call.
"So he says" afterward about asking for help.
They were manipulated to talk and change the result.
Certainly matches up with what we saw on video...he was seeking out the help much more than the trail was seeking him out to give him help.
You are changing words now, "left the visual confines of the playing area" is now "visual confines of the court"? Court can be subjective but playing area is clearly inside the lines. It is odd all three refs accepted the Manasquan win and were leaving until Camdem officials forced them to huddle and then somehow a boneheaded reversal happens.
Sorry...visual confines of the playing area is the wording that the Fed uses across different sports. I said "court" because basketball is played on a court, and feel they are interchangeable for this purpose...but the rulebook (and case book) does refer to "playing area". But "visual confines" doesn't mean "they need to be standing inside the lines of the court"...they can be huddled up anywhere in the vicinity of the court, inside or outside of the lines.
I'm not sure the guy that called it was "accepting it and leaving"...seems from the video that he's seeking out his partner to ask him about it (to some degree at least...did he talk to a single person from Camden before his partner...he made a great, emphatic call, but then seemed indecisive)?
This isn't some foul call or a shot clock in the 2nd quarter...this was a shot that clearly went in before the clock ran out, and clearly no time left on the clock. Manasquan blatantly and unequivocally won the game. Camden lost it, straight up. It's not rocket science.
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LoL no Steve, sports are apparently a joke and not accurate I guess.
Like wtf are we doing?!!?
