In our 5 real game against power conference teams Gavin has 2 defensive rebounds. 11 on the season.
GAME 10 LONG ISLAND: Fending off the shark nips
- Thread starter bac2therac
- Start date
We have such more monumental issues going on with this team than whether Ogbole can give us quality minutes as a backup or not. If he can great, but if not I just don't think it makes all that much difference in the whole scheme of things considering the other issues going on.
Agree there are lots of other issues
Having only 1 true center is certainly one of them. Woolfolk is undersized and hasn’t really stepped up like we thought he might. If cliff gets in foul trouble or injured - you don’t think that becomes a HUUGE problem if woolfolk is our sole “center”?!!!!
While it may not have been a big problem yet - it very well can become an issue once we hit the heart of the conf schedule
Having a second big body down there to bang with the big boys, give fouls, get rebounds and defend would help a lot
I don’t know if it’s the most important thing but it’s big
I did not say if we are not going to be elite we will be bad. I said we do not have the defense we have had in the past when we were elite to win those 59-56 rock fights. Caleb is not walking thru the door. We can be serviceable and cause some havoc with our press and Mag and Cliff will do everything they can defensively to make sure we are not abused , but we have to win this year with better offense. You are not putting Gavin and Aundre on the bench and play Mag, Wolf and Cliff upfront and optimize our offensive output. We might need Williams if the guards are being backed down , but getting as much offense out of Noah, JMike and Derek as possible is the better way to wins. If Gavin and Aundre can ever become more consistent from 3 , that is also a better way to wins. You want to see optimal defense and I want to see wins.
That is a totally different issue that Pike or Knight has to address. He is 6 feet 8 inches. By accident he should get 2-3 rebounds. For him to have 1 rebound or 2 rebounds in multiple games that is totally a lack of desire and understanding of how he can help the team besides knocking down 3’s. Suprised to say the least coming from his background and tape.
I did say our best chance is to win rock fights...doesn't mean that we will win them. When you look at each side of the ball I think more improvement by varying the personnel comes from defense.
I think we play a lineup with gavin and Hyatt we may improve our scoring a hair but lose mutiples of the offensive gain on D. Whereas as our best defensive lineup gains more on D than they lose on O.
Pike could be wrong, but when you look at how he has substitued in the 5 real games I think he agrees.
I agree with the point your making on Gavin. In effect, Pike will at times play Davis in his place alongside another PG (Noah ro Simpson) for defense. I agree with what your saying on the trade off.
But Austin William’s? Eh I don’t know. We haven’t seen that much of him yet but I’m not buying what your selling here. Look - I’m not historically the most pro Hyatt fan, but I think your being unfair to him here if your suggesting Williams is a material defensive upgrade over Hyatt at the 4. Now, Hyatt is not an elite defender by any means but he’s also averaging 5.6 RPG on a team that really struggles with rebounding. More importantly, he’s ahead of Austin Williams in pretty much every defensive stat you could point to. Don’t get me wrong - Hyatt has a history of playing himself off the court with bonehead decisions on offense - shooting the ball every time he touches it, for one. But so far this year he’s been better with that. I’m not seeing this swap as a big upgrade on D. Even Hyatt’s ball handling looks better to me this season for a forward.
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Put the defense and rebounding aside for a second. Griffiths has the lowest offensive rating of any rotation player. The question is not whether him being in helps us win because that answer is obviously no right now. The question is what level of investment do we put in by playing him now and what's the playoff later in the season or next season?
Yeah - that’s a whole different point entirely. I think what’s being said here is even taken Gavin’s increased long term offensive potential compared to Davis’ as a given (which to your point, right now is not even reflective of actual output) the disparity on the defensive end is pretty massive.
Yes. We dont have enough sample size of A Will. Yes Hyatt appears improved with his decision making on offense.
It comes down to you have 8 minutes left in a B1G and you are tied. You have pretty much gone through ykur “rest rotations”.
You have 2 of the PG out there, Mag and Cliff. Who is the 5th guy?
Gavin?
Hyatt?
A Will?
3rd PG?
Oskar?
WOolfolk?
It comes down to you have 8 minutes left in a B1G and you are tied. You have pretty much gone through ykur “rest rotations”.
You have 2 of the PG out there, Mag and Cliff. Who is the 5th guy?
Gavin?
Hyatt?
A Will?
3rd PG?
Oskar?
WOolfolk?
you throw A will as the 5th i get that the lineup has trouble scoring. Does the addition of Hyatt or Griffith make up for what they could cost you defensively?
The Answer is yes if the offense is run right. If the point guards can get the ball in to Cliff with good passes or work the pick and roll properly or if they do not pass they drive and kick it on the corner for. Hyatt 3 and you still have Cliff and Mag for offensive rebounds. If the point guards can penetrate either all the way to the hole or jump stop and kick back out for a 3 . Or if we run continuous screens whether it is a pin down or a double screen or a staggered screen to get an open look. Any of those options get you the offense to get over the hump to win over hoping our defense is good enough to hold them off.
Right now it would be Hyatt as he is the only one in this group who has been consistent from 3 and shoots FT well. Down the road I hope it becomes Griffith.
In your scenario what is the incremental boost Hyatt provides in that offensive possession.
Hyatt's career 3 point percentage is 29.7%
AWill career 3 point percentage is 28.8%
If he really is just going to sit in the corner and knock down 3s I'll take A Will on defense and lose the 1% in 3 pt shooting.
I see Hyatt more of an asset as a 4.
No that can’t even be the debate. We’re not going to have Gavin out there with 2 guards in the situation you describe. Not with his rebounding.
Last 2 years by year's end Hyatt played his way out of major minutes in the rotation because of his D. Oskar played over him with our season on the line last year.
I see an improved Hyatt on offense making better decisions. He also has made strides rebounding. I think there is hope. I just know how Pike ticks, guarding that opposing wing is very important. I think he will end up playing the guy who can defend him the best.
Position (3 vs 4) is irrelevant on offense. Hyatt guards a 4 when he’s in the game. I’m not sure what your seeing in Austin William’s to conclude he provides this big spark on D? Let’s be clear, Hyatt isn’t winning an award for his D or anything, but he mostly hasn’t stood out as a liability either this season except when he and Gavin are playing together. Actually Oskar did a better job of bailing Gavin out than Hyatt early. Austin William’s defends more like a guard. But with Mag back, I want him assigned to guard a strong perimeter player so I’m not seeing where William’s fits in unless you go with Davis and Williams as the guards.
I guess what I’m saying is - as scary as it sounds, Hyatt currently clogs in as a relative plus defender in any 5 player line up you could put together. I’m not seeing a combo where you could really conclude otherwise based on available data to this point.
yes....I'll take the 333 sample size over 53.
In all seriousness.....you are touching on what can keep Hyatt on the floor. If he makes enough 3s, he makes the right decisions, rebounds adequately and doesn't have too many defensive lapses he is definitely the man.
It is relevant on defense. A lot does matter with the 3 or 4 perimeter players our opponent has.
Yes. I have not seen enough of A Williams on D to conclude he is a PLUS defender. He may not even be an average defender. We have seen Hyatt enough to know what he is defensively. Maybe in year 6 as a "leader" he gets it. I would think lateral quickness, length and body isn't holding him back
Unfortunately I wouldn't think so. Maybe it happens, but I just don't see a switch turning on and him being such an impact offensive player that we have to make it work on the defensive end.
My general premise is Pike will play the lineup that will defend the best. If there is no one more than marginally better than you will see Hyatt out there.
That also could mean we are staring down a 6-14ish B1G record
It’s more than just that. Your forgetting how much we’ve struggled on the glass. Great on ball / help defense only gets you so far if you can’t secure the rebounds to get the stops. As far as I can see, there’s going to be a huge trade off to make up on the glass any time we don’t have Hyatt, Mag and Cliff in the game together.
Here's where fans are fascinated with stats.....and ignore obvious other ones to support what they want to believe.
If I told fans that RU is averaging the same amount of PPG as they did last year in the 1st 10 games, would fans believe that is true?? All I keep seeing is that we haven't made up for the losses in the backcourt, but the teams PPG is essentially the same.
If I told fans that pushing the tempo has resulted in RU earning 63 MORE FTs in their first 10 games this year vs last year, would that be a fact or fiction??? It's obviously a fact and while the FT shooting has been a problem for a few players, you cannot ignore that pushing the tempo and the guards driving to the basket, is resulting in points.
I don't know how fans blindly ignore players improving and those items revert back to career numbers........then at the same time, when other players are improving, those players are going to be "important pieces".
Let's just look at 2 players....one seemingly isn't going to ever win over fans.....and one is seemingly irreplaceable and holds the keys to the entire palace. The harsh reality is if you removed either player from the roster, the team doesn't have the depth or an adequate replacement.....but fans can't seem to grasp value, based on what actually happens and impacts the roster, scoreboard or the trickle down effect, of what would happen IF....
What if I told fans that both Mawot Mag and Aundre Hyatt have improved every single year, in almost every single category in the last 3 years??
Should I actually look at career 3 point shooting percentages OR look at the trends that are clearly in front of RU fans.
Do I want to look at someone's 3 point shooting percentages, if they're not a high volume shooter or take one 3 pointer per game??
Hyatt......27.1......to 30.6.....to 35.8 from 3 point range.
Hyatt.....63.4.......to 69.6.....to 75.0 from the FT line
Hyatt....2.8.....to 3.9......to 5.6 rebounds per game year over year.
Assists, very modest....0.7 to 0.8 to 1.7 per game
4.3 PPG ......8.8.......to 11.5....
Mag
23.5......to 30.0......to 40 from 3......
69.6.....to 74 from the FT line last year....
0.4 to 1.1 to 2.0 assists per game
2.9......to 7.8 to 7.0 PPG so far in the 2 games.
Do Hyatt and Mag play a different style of basketball?? Absolutely, they're different players with different strengths and weaknesses. One has a better offensive game, one is better on defense and both are OK on the boards this year.
If the team continues to shoot poorly from the FT line and shoots 20% from 3, they won't win many games.
On the other hand, if the team is averaging pretty close to the same amount of PPG from the 1st 10 games this year vs last year, shouldn't it make sense that the faster tempo and guards ability to attack the defense off the dribble, results in more fouls??? Which means more FT attempts......which means seemingly more chances to set up a token press, which at worse, protects the half court defense for less time??
If we are objective, with modest FT improvement and the expected improvement on the glass with Mag back AND a small or modest increase in shot attempts from 3......wouldn't it make sense that this roster should improve from November through February???
If I told fans that RU is averaging the same amount of PPG as they did last year in the 1st 10 games, would fans believe that is true?? All I keep seeing is that we haven't made up for the losses in the backcourt, but the teams PPG is essentially the same.
If I told fans that pushing the tempo has resulted in RU earning 63 MORE FTs in their first 10 games this year vs last year, would that be a fact or fiction??? It's obviously a fact and while the FT shooting has been a problem for a few players, you cannot ignore that pushing the tempo and the guards driving to the basket, is resulting in points.
I don't know how fans blindly ignore players improving and those items revert back to career numbers........then at the same time, when other players are improving, those players are going to be "important pieces".
Let's just look at 2 players....one seemingly isn't going to ever win over fans.....and one is seemingly irreplaceable and holds the keys to the entire palace. The harsh reality is if you removed either player from the roster, the team doesn't have the depth or an adequate replacement.....but fans can't seem to grasp value, based on what actually happens and impacts the roster, scoreboard or the trickle down effect, of what would happen IF....
What if I told fans that both Mawot Mag and Aundre Hyatt have improved every single year, in almost every single category in the last 3 years??
Should I actually look at career 3 point shooting percentages OR look at the trends that are clearly in front of RU fans.
Do I want to look at someone's 3 point shooting percentages, if they're not a high volume shooter or take one 3 pointer per game??
Hyatt......27.1......to 30.6.....to 35.8 from 3 point range.
Hyatt.....63.4.......to 69.6.....to 75.0 from the FT line
Hyatt....2.8.....to 3.9......to 5.6 rebounds per game year over year.
Assists, very modest....0.7 to 0.8 to 1.7 per game
4.3 PPG ......8.8.......to 11.5....
Mag
23.5......to 30.0......to 40 from 3......
69.6.....to 74 from the FT line last year....
0.4 to 1.1 to 2.0 assists per game
2.9......to 7.8 to 7.0 PPG so far in the 2 games.
Do Hyatt and Mag play a different style of basketball?? Absolutely, they're different players with different strengths and weaknesses. One has a better offensive game, one is better on defense and both are OK on the boards this year.
If the team continues to shoot poorly from the FT line and shoots 20% from 3, they won't win many games.
On the other hand, if the team is averaging pretty close to the same amount of PPG from the 1st 10 games this year vs last year, shouldn't it make sense that the faster tempo and guards ability to attack the defense off the dribble, results in more fouls??? Which means more FT attempts......which means seemingly more chances to set up a token press, which at worse, protects the half court defense for less time??
If we are objective, with modest FT improvement and the expected improvement on the glass with Mag back AND a small or modest increase in shot attempts from 3......wouldn't it make sense that this roster should improve from November through February???
This comment seems kind of out of place in the context of this discussion. What point are you trying to make? it’s a given Mag would be a part of our best defensive line up. Why compare him to Hyatt?
Thru the 1st 10 teams we are 257th in offensive efficiency
Last year thru 10 gmes we were 217th
Last year we had Paul and Caleb hurt a good chunk of the 1st 10 games.
We weren't supposed to be on par with last year. We needed to be better offensively.
Last year thru 10 gmes we were 217th
Last year we had Paul and Caleb hurt a good chunk of the 1st 10 games.
We weren't supposed to be on par with last year. We needed to be better offensively.
You cannot compare the Hyatt and JWill 3 point shooters without watching. Hyatt is a catch and shoot guy or one dribble and launch. JWill looks like he was heaving them and could not catch and shoot without getting blocked with any reasonable defense on him. Hyatt has been about 35% this year and it also looks comfortable and good when it is leaving his hands. What Hyatt has to give you are the defensive rebounds like he did last game and the strong drives all the way to the hoop and actually making his layups like last game. That is the Hyatt that has to show up against Big 10 competition. He is capable if he does the things he does well and avoids the things that he does not do well, dribbling , backing down players , just shooting for the sake of shooting not in rhythm or in the flow of the offense or via a kick out. Hyatt , Mag and Cliff can be as formidable as any front court in the Big 10. Your belaboring his defensive liabilities which are not as bad as you claim are more than offset with the things he can contribute offensively and on the boards
It’s pretty simple. We’re not going to be able to play a 3 guard line up too often in crunch time because we’re a very poor rebounding team to begin with. It was obvious in the Wake game that this metric must be addressed above all else. We clawed all the way back but none of it mattered because we couldn’t secure a rebound. We’ll mostly need to use a 2 forward line up with Cliff except on rare occasions when we press and push tempo for short spurts. The problem is there are no rebounding forwards to challenge Mag and Hyatt. So both will play a ton by default. Austin Williams might be a decent rebounding guard but he is still a guard. He wouldn’t deliver anything close to 5+ Boards against BIG competition in extended minutes.
The biggest games of the season last year Aundre Hyatt was on the bench and Oskar Palmquist took his minutes. That isn't me thinking his defense is bad....that is Coach Pike making that determination.
Rebounding out of the American East is different than rebounding out of B1G.....having said that A Williams rebounds like a forward and has lifetime DEFENSIVE rebounding numbers better than Hyatt.
I think we have better offensive days ahead of us. Maybe it is a case of seeing what I want to see......I have seen a noticable difference in passing the 2 games Mag has been back. He makes the extra pass and so far it appears contagious.
Stop. Let’s put it this way. The leading rebounder on that Hartford team was a 6-3 guard who now plays for St Bonnie’s. He raked in 6.2 boards for Hartford William’s’ last season. He’s currently averaging 2.1 RPG this season. Last year he grabbed 2.6 RPG for St Bonnies.
In other words, Williams success on the glass at Hartford means nothing. Derek Simpson would’ve grabbed 5+ boards there. Someone had to grab rebounds eventually.
We’re in a different situation. You seem to be discounting the extent of our rebounding struggles. Consider Caleb and Mag a wash on the glass. Pike was still in a different very situation last year with a 6-6 kid like Paul on the court. Paul is averaging 4.3 RPG for Washington. He averaged 3.6 and 4.1 the prior 2 seasons for us. Even Cam Spencer as a 2 guard (at 6-4) grabbed 3.8 RPG for us (similar numbers at UConn). That includes a full season of BIG opponents.
Our current guards are not delivering anything close to these numbers against mostly cupcakes. We certainly can’t play 2 of them together for long stretches with Oskar 1.8 RPG. Noah 2.6 RPG. Derek 2.3 RPG. GG 2.1. Davis 3.1 RPG and Austin Williams 3.2 RPG.
Excellent recap once again Bac. I know it is only a fairly small sample size, but I do expect the free shooting to go way up.
I think Gavin shot close to 90% in high school, so you can't just forget how to shoot them.
I do expect it will be a roller coaster type year because it will take a long time to get a set rotation.
Best of Luck,
Groz
I think Gavin shot close to 90% in high school, so you can't just forget how to shoot them.
I do expect it will be a roller coaster type year because it will take a long time to get a set rotation.
Best of Luck,
Groz
Obviously I looked it up. From what I’ve seen of Austin Williams so far I just don’t see him being able to be a comparable rebounder to Hyatt for us. Like - not close at all. And you know damn straight there are a lot of things I don’t like about Hyatt’s game but I call it as I see it. Besides having 2 inches on him, Hyatt also weighs 30 lbs more than him. That clearly matters.
So I pulled up the 2021 stats for Hartford and sorted by rebounds. Williams was second behind this Flowers guard kid.
Bottom line - what I’m trying to say is I think we’re stuck with a lot of Hyatt his year and have to hope that his improvements on offense continue. When he switches on D, well have to live with some open perimeter 3s, because, Hyatt’s D is what it is is. Close outs will never be a strength. That’s just my take anyway.
Simpson's D was really great at times in that game. Shades of Caleb in terms of defensive impact.
If he continues to produce D like that, and make free throws, Pike is going to get him plenty of minutes. Just gotta get him to settle down a little and let the game come to him with his shooting.
People are discounting him, and for sure he has a lot of competition for minutes. But I'm hoping he keeps improving and changes some minds 'cause that would be nothing but good for the team.
Conversely, Gavin, who I think is going to be a tremendously good and impactful player, needs a ton of work on his D. Both individual and team D.
But I was watching him for a bit and I think maybe he's still growing taller. Or maybe he was growing recently and it's stopped now, but he's not yet fully comfortable. You can see him struggle just a little bit for balance at certain moments which isn't uncommon with tall kids that aren't quite done growing.
That could explain some inconsistency with his shots. The good news about that, if true, is that it'll go away. And, when it does, all the effort I bet he's putting into shooting practice right now will make him a pure killer from the 3 point line.
If he continues to produce D like that, and make free throws, Pike is going to get him plenty of minutes. Just gotta get him to settle down a little and let the game come to him with his shooting.
People are discounting him, and for sure he has a lot of competition for minutes. But I'm hoping he keeps improving and changes some minds 'cause that would be nothing but good for the team.
Conversely, Gavin, who I think is going to be a tremendously good and impactful player, needs a ton of work on his D. Both individual and team D.
But I was watching him for a bit and I think maybe he's still growing taller. Or maybe he was growing recently and it's stopped now, but he's not yet fully comfortable. You can see him struggle just a little bit for balance at certain moments which isn't uncommon with tall kids that aren't quite done growing.
That could explain some inconsistency with his shots. The good news about that, if true, is that it'll go away. And, when it does, all the effort I bet he's putting into shooting practice right now will make him a pure killer from the 3 point line.
