Game 23: Penn State thoughts

[bac2therac]

Tons of frustration today watching this effort today which was ugly no matter what fancy dressing somebody will try to put on it.

Do not have to wait until the game is over to do this. We are now back basically to just discussing overall picture because its sort of pointless to do in game play by play analysis. Bottom line is this program has along way to go and Pike is going to need to recruit big time for 2019 or he is going to plateau. Its all about recruiting now. We know he can coach, we know he can instill a defensive mindset, we know he can even get lesser players to overacheive but we know he cannot win and turn this program around without talent...and its got to be a pretty major infusion of talent. RU has a long way to go. Penn State finally under Chambers is showing signs but it has been painstakingly slow for him even, they are still not likely to go to the NCAA this year but they appear to making another step forward...and they are only doing that as talent gets another year in the program.

For RU, its about year 5 and year 6 for a shot at the NCAA for Pike and that means a lot of patience needed by the fanbase. Here is the problem, Pike inherited some players that are not his players...unfortunately these two probably contribute the most and probably have contributed to the most wins under Pike. Unfortunately these players have a tendency to not bring it every night and it has caused this team to simply fall apart as it has no depth. Not many consequences for them dogging it because Pike is caught between a rock and a hard place. I give Pike major major major credit and kudos for removing Sanders and Freeman for a significant portion of this game. It was no surprise a different lineup cut the lead from 14 to 7. I would rather have the hard workers out there rather than just give time to some players just because it is assumed we have to. Game was over, I loved the message sent to these two players. Pike has sort of relied to much on them and he has to start moving away from them and letting and trusting other players get more involved in the offense. When they are gone, Pike can fully get his system in with guys with his mentality that will work hard all the time. That may cause RU to step back next year record wise but so be it. Its not about next year, next year will be a step back, accept it. RU needs to start building an identity with younger players and RU needs to start playing a tougher non conference schedule and stop the facade of it being better just because they schedule 22 home games and the worst Power 5 non conference schedules in the country.

So coach has to recruit shooters and three point shooters. Can he do it? Its up to him but its no guarantee right now. RU has a 50/50 shot to once again finish last in the Big 10 and its very likely it will not finish over 500 this season. Shots at remaining wins look limited...maybe they can get 2 more and hope to stay out of last...that would still be improvement believe it or not.

 

[whofrewdatmataRU13]

I wish freeman would have gotten postered at the end of the game

 

[RutgersMO]

Tons of frustration today watching this effort today which was ugly no matter what fancy dressing somebody will try to put on it.

Do not have to wait until the game is over to do this. We are now back basically to just discussing overall picture because its sort of pointless to do in game play by play analysis. Bottom line is this program has along way to go and Pike is going to need to recruit big time for 2019 or he is going to plateau. Its all about recruiting now. We know he can coach, we know he can instill a defensive mindset, we know he can even get lesser players to overacheive but we know he cannot win and turn this program around without talent...and its got to be a pretty major infusion of talent. RU has a long way to go. Penn State finally under Chambers is showing signs but it has been painstakingly slow for him even, they are still not likely to go to the NCAA this year but they appear to making another step forward...and they are only doing that as talent gets another year in the program.

For RU, its about year 5 and year 6 for a shot at the NCAA for Pike and that means a lot of patience needed by the fanbase. Here is the problem, Pike inherited some players that are not his players...unfortunately these two probably contribute the most and probably have contributed to the most wins under Pike. Unfortunately these players have a tendency to not bring it every night and it has caused this team to simply fall apart as it has no depth. Not many consequences for them dogging it because Pike is caught between a rock and a hard place. I give Pike major major major credit and kudos for removing Sanders and Freeman for a significant portion of this game. It was no surprise a different lineup cut the lead from 14 to 7. I would rather have the hard workers out there rather than just give time to some players just because it is assumed we have to. Game was over, I loved the message sent to these two players. Pike has sort of relied to much on them and he has to start moving away from them and letting and trusting other players get more involved in the offense. When they are gone, Pike can fully get his system in with guys with his mentality that will work hard all the time. That may cause RU to step back next year record wise but so be it. Its not about next year, next year will be a step back, accept it. RU needs to start building an identity with younger players and RU needs to start playing a tougher non conference schedule and stop the facade of it being better just because they schedule 22 home games and the worst Power 5 non conference schedules in the country.

So coach has to recruit shooters and three point shooters. Can he do it? Its up to him but its no guarantee right now. RU has a 50/50 shot to once again finish last in the Big 10 and its very likely it will not finish over 500 this season. Shots at remaining wins look limited...maybe they can get 2 more and hope to stay out of last...that would still be improvement believe it or not.

Unfortunately I agree with you!

MO

 

[RUsojo]

There is nothing to say; those hoping for success are needed to support the program, and be positive, and hope for good recruiting. If you (the general “you”) think you don’t have to support the program, that’s ok, but don’t be contributing negatively.

Have to wait for recruiting.

 

[RUJMM78]

Too many complementary type players won't result in B1G wins .Once again not even one go to scorer in this game.The psyche of the players can't be high as the losses mount up and there are no quick fixes .Further changes on the roster must occur prior to next season in order to further improve the talent level .The longer the losing continues the harder it will be to attract difference makers on offense .All the positive vibes about the program will be impacted by another losing season and bottom tier league ranking.Rutgers fans have seen the changing of the guard with coaching staffs and players but are still waiting for the magic potion to change the status quo.

 

[mikefla]

We play good D
We have no reliable O

Its as simple as that

How Cory & Baker can go a combined 1-16 is beyond me
and still we were in the game with 7 minutes to go

Coach P WILL recruit some shooters... I have NO doubt
a couple of shooters that can play the game
and we will be good to go next year

 

[mikefla]

I wish freeman would have gotten postered at the end of the game

I nominate this for the dumbest post of the year...by far

 

[dpwhite]

I think, when a team that's already offensively challenged, loses 9 ppg with a player injured the two best players on the team start pressing and it compounds things even worse. Need a game like Iowa where the shots fall. Or need Mike back.

Or both.

 

[RU_DIO]

There is nothing to say; those hoping for success are needed to support the program, and be positive, and hope for good recruiting. If you (the general “you”) think you don’t have to support the program, that’s ok, but don’t be contributing negatively.

Have to wait for recruiting.

Confused. How would people be contributing negatively.

 

[RUJMM78]

We play good D
We have no reliable O

Its as simple as that

How Cory & Baker can go a combined 1-16 is beyond me
and still we were in the game with 7 minutes to go

Coach P WILL recruit some shooters... I have NO doubt
a couple of shooters that can play the game
and we will be good to go next year

There wasn't one Rutgers player that could dribble drive past his defender for a basket or shoot/make a jump shot off the dribble.Rutgers needs difference makers ,ie, Douby/Coleman type players which is a skill set lacking on the current roster.

 

[FELONIOUSMONK]

I repeat . How can the same school in a talent laden state never have a QB who can pass or 1 , just 1 , basketball player who can shoot over a series of decades with different recruits and different coaches? You couldnt plan this !@@

 

[Mr Magoo]

Totally agree about the recruiting part. While, we're happy with what we have coming in next year, Pikeill needs to step it up even further. With what's coming back in the B1G next year, and how our class compares to others in the league, it'll have us basically treading water or worse. He needs another big time player coming in next year - whether it be a freshman, JUCO, or grad transfer.

 

[RUblackshirt2006]

I think sanders and freeman bring it as much or more than you can expect from any player. Problem is they get frustrated and have bad nights and it gets worse when you don’t have someone else who can step up and they see that and it just builds on itself. They are in a slump and you add Thiams slump and geo caught it a bit more tonight and here were 2 really bad games in a row.

 

[FELONIOUSMONK]

Black shirt It has become systemic not a 2 game slump by 1 of them or all of them.

 

[JMD77]

We play good D
We have no reliable O

Its as simple as that

How Cory & Baker can go a combined 1-16 is beyond me
and still we were in the game with 7 minutes to go

Coach P WILL recruit some shooters... I have NO doubt
a couple of shooters that can play the game
and we will be good to go next year

It could be just an off game - but both have logged a ton of minutes and not shooting well is often a result of fatigue. And Williams injury didn't help the situation.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

While bac summarizes the long view, it comes down to fluid players....in order to have fluid players (dribble, pass, shoot, we really have one or two players that fit and the rest of the players are stationary or are not fluid, but more workmanlike, to a certain extent.

As much as Thiam is learning on the job, he is the only player that can help enough by forcing shots up and running/cutting to generate some semblance of offense beyond Baker and Sanders....we are living with his learning curve, but I'm confident that he will improve, but it's not going to be at the level of our competition....there has to be more found in 2019 recruiting at the SF position OR we will need to mix and match Thiam, Kiss and Ron Harper Jr.

Which is the point Bac started with recruiting......It is not "get a stud recruit", because a stud recruit is still only as good as the pieces around him and if those pieces are still one dimensional and not "multiple" (dribble, shoot, pass, jump, defend), then you have very limited ways to help whatever player is added to the equation.

I'm not certain that as much as this is Sanders as it is, there isn't enough trust around him to lean on. I also think more than anything, there is basketball IQ and while talent can generate individual points, I've mentioned how much I like PSU PG's Tony Carr's game....he can't out jump you, he's not quick, but wiry strong and savvy........but he's the smart player with some athletes that I'm still not quite sure Penn State isn't just Tony Carr and 3 to 4 Corey Sanders-like athletes that can run and jump.

Pat Chambers recruited a lot of talented players, but honestly, they took so many bad shots, they have no real concepts and just were better athletically than RU....I'm pretty certain that if you flip flopped Sanders and Carr, RU would be 4-5 games better and probably 4-6 or 5-5 in the B1G vs 2-8.

Is 2018 PG recruit Diego Willis that type of player that contributes and balances out the roster because he can be a shooting threat?? Sometimes, you have to upgrade your other pieces by making them accountable that they will get the ball and they will be forced to shoot and score and live with the growth spurts, some beatings along the way and learn together on the job.

I think if you landed Willis and somehow found a Hyatt for 2019 (or 2018) as a true Small Forward, things would be pieced together to add 2019 upgrades where needed (Mulcahy as your lead guard to help Baker and Mathis with perhaps Willis) and then you have some real options to go to.

 

[Andman1025]

It could be just an off game - but both have logged a ton of minutes and not shooting well is often a result of fatigue. And Williams injury didn't help the situation.

People need to notice that the last few games Baker and Sanders have been swarmed everytime they touch the ball. They will continue to shoot badly and continue to be shut down and it’s no fault of their own. Teams know we have no offense without them and as long as they neutralize our two scorers we are easy to beat. Williams injury only making this problem worse as well. Unfortunately there’s nothing this team can do because nobody else is good enough to step up offensively make up for their absence

 

[RUSJ73]

Just another losing record. Need to recruit SHOOTERS, but that has been said many times by many people. I guess coaches are not listening.

 

[KnightTerrors]

Just another losing record. Need to recruit SHOOTERS, but that has been said many times by many people. I guess coaches are not listening.

The coaches know this!

The class coming in +kiss and Johnson is very promising. People got ahead of themselves this year with expectations. This was never going to be a two year process. This is coming from a complete black hole and grinding toward relevance. You are witnessing the growing pains of having no depth in the program from a failed program. It’s going to take a few recruiting cycles.

I totally agree with your sentiment on recruiting. He needs to build on this 2018 class and follow up with an equal or better 2019 class. Or else it may just not be enough to move the needle, regardless of how good he and his staff are at coaching.

 

[LotusAggressor]

I long for the day when the players that are the answer to RU's basketball woes are in the program being developed and we're not sprinkling fairy dust on unproven HS players with fundamental shortcomings every year.

 

[RU MAN]

We all knew the team was deficient in scoring and once Mike went down it's been even harder to find points from role players. It doesn't help when Freeman reverts back to his poor BB IQ ways and tries to score against two players taller than he is. It doesn't help when Corey produces a goose egg and sulks on the court and think he's fouled, while watching his man steal the ball and take it the other way for two.

Baker looks as if he has hit the proverbial freshman wall and Thiam has been so off of late (forget the two three's in the second half) he needs to learn how to drive more to the basket and get fouled. Eugene has been a pleasant surprise this season and I think going forward he can even produce 10+ points a game on offense. His defense and drawing offensive fouls has been great to see.

I believe we do have a nice influx of players coming in next year, Pikiell's kind of guys, but Pikiell knows we need shooters, more shooters, and even more shooters. This team needs to have the balance in the back court and front court. We don't have that right now and it shows in games like this when our leader scorer is absent and our four man down low dogs it on D and puts up shots that have no way of going in. I'm tired of being patient but 2019-2020 will be a big deal.

I do believe if Mike did not go down, we beat Nebraska and the outcome of this game would have been tighter too.

 

[Roy_Faulker]

Hopefully Pike has built enough credibility with local coaches etc to keep their trust - the practice facility will hopefully push RU over the edge or at least keep the program competitive with future recruits.

 

[RUallin1]

I think everyone needs to pump the breaks with the doomsday attitude. I think expectations are way to high for this program in year two. I agree this offense is the worst I've seen in years. But think about if we averaged 70 points a game. We would have about 5 more wins in the Big this year and SB & Hartford wouldn't have had a sniff. On another note, as well much as Sanders is our only offense and responsible for a majority of our wins, I think this team will be better once he is gone. I don't believe he fits in the culture Pikes is trying to build at RU. There are good things down the road for this program. I just think we need patience.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

People need to notice that the last few games Baker and Sanders have been swarmed everytime they touch the ball. They will continue to shoot badly and continue to be shut down and it’s no fault of their own. Teams know we have no offense without them and as long as they neutralize our two scorers we are easy to beat. Williams injury only making this problem worse as well. Unfortunately there’s nothing this team can do because nobody else is good enough to step up offensively make up for their absence

This is the 6th game we have lost scoring 62 points out of 11....

This is a simple equation ...we need talent and if you look at what we have coming in.....we have three guys at the 2 and 3 spot coming in. Maybe a fourth if we can hyatt for 2018

Recruiting is going to be the only way to fix this. Like what we have added in baker and Doucoure.

Need to add 2 or 3 long term pieces every year. Think this year we added baker and Doucoure to that long term puzzle this year. Doucoure is the type of guy that I can see being a 6-7 ppg and 5 rpg as a soph and a 9 and 7 as a junior

Confident that this time next year, we will be saying that we have added real good pieces in Carter and Mathis to add to Geo, Doucoure and Eugene O plus what we sign next fall

 

[soundcrib]

I repeat . How can the same school in a talent laden state never have a QB who can pass or 1 , just 1 , basketball player who can shoot over a series of decades with different recruits and different coaches? You couldnt plan this !@@

Because anyone good doesn’t want to go to same ol Rutgers.

 

[soundcrib]

This is the 6th game we have lost scoring 62 points out of 11....

This is a simple equation ...we need talent and if you look at what we have coming in.....we have three guys at the 2 and 3 spot coming in. Maybe a fourth if we can hyatt for 2018

Recruiting is going to be the only way to fix this. Like what we have added in baker and Doucoure.

Need to add 2 or 3 long term pieces every year. Think this year we added baker and Doucoure to that long term puzzle this year. Doucoure is the type of guy that I can see being a 6-7 ppg and 5 rpg as a soph and a 9 and 7 as a junior

Confident that this time next year, we will be saying that we have added real good pieces in Carter and Mathis to add to Geo, Doucoure and Eugene O plus what we sign next fall

I used to believe in the upswing in recruiting, but I now just don’t think it’s good enough to get us there. And that includes next years class.

 

[RUfromSoCal?]

Corey is always flash and exciting to watch..... but Williams was the foundation.......... last 3 games has shown that...... I expect a couple more wins (including the first round of tourney)... but, hard to watch struggles on O..which hurt O rebounding... which is hurting boards on the defensive end.....

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

12 second half turnovers. Our guards struggle to dribble the ball, they slap it around and play it out in front of themselves,

Got Crushed on the boards as well.

Game thoughts? Pike needs to get in some faces. Mr. Nice guy isn't working.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

I used to believe in the upswing in recruiting, but I now just don’t think it’s good enough to get us there. And that includes next years class.

Unfortunately there is no "get us there", with true freshman and Kiss...what that does is shore up the rotations and roster to provide a starting point or foundation to build on...if a couple of 2018 kids aren't dominating next season, fans will already be on record on "it's surprising that we haven't improved.

Every program in the B1G has existing pieces to start with that are better OR are recruiting at a similar rate of the RU 2018 class.

You have to start somewhere folks and continue to work on the recruiting. It's definitely getting much better than folks realize.

 

[soundcrib]

Unfortunately there is no "get us there", with true freshman and Kiss...what that does is shore up the rotations and roster to provide a starting point or foundation to build on...if a couple of 2018 kids aren't dominating next season, fans will already be on record on "it's surprising that we haven't improved.

Every program in the B1G has existing pieces to start with that are better OR are recruiting at a similar rate of the RU 2018 class.

You have to start somewhere folks and continue to work on the recruiting. It's definitely getting much better than folks realize.

Unfortunately there is no "get us there", with true freshman and Kiss...what that does is shore up the rotations and roster to provide a starting point or foundation to build on...if a couple of 2018 kids aren't dominating next season, fans will already be on record on "it's surprising that we haven't improved.

Every program in the B1G has existing pieces to start with that are better OR are recruiting at a similar rate of the RU 2018 class.

You have to start somewhere folks and continue to work on the recruiting. It's definitely getting much better than folks realize.

We’ll see. And if we swing and miss on 2019?

 

[mrslate]

When you give up 60 points in a college basketball game, you should win. Shooting was beyond terrible today, Corey and Gio missing multiple open looks. Painful to watch. Thiam needs to head to the bench, and Eugene should start. The best thing we saw today was a pulse from Duke and Sa. I get your big picture stuff, Bac, but there are a lot of games left in the season, and I need a reason to attend and watch other than dreams of shooters and blind loyalty.

 

[RUChoppin]

When you give up 60 points in a college basketball game, you should win. Shooting was beyond terrible today, Corey and Gio missing multiple open looks. Painful to watch. Thiam needs to head to the bench, and Eugene should start. The best thing we saw today was a pulse from Duke and Sa. I get your big picture stuff, Bac, but there are a lot of games left in the season, and I need a reason to attend and watch other than dreams of shooters and blind loyalty.

Thiam should head to the bench after leading the team in scoring? He had a bad stretch from deep, but he's still the best option at the three.

Agree with starting Omoruyi, though... over Freeman.

 

[satnom]

With all the criticisms and moaning about the players on this board, RU could have stolen 2-3 more BIG victories against Neb, MSU away and at home with one or two more stops and a couple of made baskets. This team does not yet have enough consistent scoring from the outside to compensate for Corey, Issa and Geo all shooting poorly performances. RU needs to develop or recruit a couple more scoring threats to make team more well rounded. You could argue that RU has played well enough defense to currently have 4-6 more wins right now if team had a bullseye shooter from the outside and a center that could score. Losing sucks but every poster would be singing a different tune if RU pulls out wins against MSU and Neb and not had the brain fart games against Stonybrook and Hartford. One less player that plays defense and shoots the ball in Mike Williams but team needs to continue grinding and get some wins at home and in the BIG tourney.

GO RU

 

[goru7]

This game was disappointing on so many levels. We get an outstanding defensive effort for 30 minutes and essentially got nothing from Corey , Geo, and Issa . The help defense and swarming and rotations were outstanding. Coach switching to half court pressure defense caused some steals and gave us a chance only down 7 with 11 minutes left. I understand why Coach sat Corey for not going after the Kid after he clearly got fouled and he had a rough stretch offensively. But Coach made a mistake by keeping him down for 4 more minutes . Coach had gotten away with playing Souf who was playing some good defense on Carr and finally getting the ball down low to the bigs who were converting. But at that point they had expended all their energy clawing back to 7 despite an atrocious shooting game even for us. He should have inserted Corey and he should have gone zone to let the team get their legs under them. He did neither and the lead ballooned to 14 and Penn State was having a dunking contest as we had no legs left. Although Corey came in at the 7 minute mark and appeared to totallly defer and not shoot or be a threat either due to Coach’s message to him or what Corey thought Coach wanted from him, it left us without another scoring option. There is a fine line about sending a message and doing it dooming your team from making a comeback. Corey was having a really bad shooting game but he did score 25 points last year against this same team at this same gym and could have sparked a comeback .
Penn State did not look or create matchup problems for us to have lost by 17 points . In fact, I really liked our matchups across the board. . For Geo and Issa to have equally bad shooting nights together with Corey is mind boggling. Geo is playing too many minutes and not driving enough and has hit a wall . I do not know what has happened to Issa these last 2 games to miss 13 in a row from three before he finally connected especially on essentially open looks but his timing for a slump without Mike there to swap out , has cost us at least Nebraska .
The only good thing offensively are we are getting some looks for the bigs as Duke, Sa and Shaquille are providing another offensive option. But without threes and without Corey we have no chance no matter how great our defense plays.

 

[BoxStater]

Thiam should head to the bench after leading the team in scoring? He had a bad stretch from deep, but he's still the best option at the three.

Agree with starting Omoruyi, though... over Freeman.

If Steph Curry could shoot from 3p something like 5-33 his final 3 college games & only 38% from the season then I think that we can assume the Geo, Corey, & Thiam will have shooting slumps too

 

[Scarlet Shack]

When you give up 60 points in a college basketball game, you should win. Shooting was beyond terrible today, Corey and Gio missing multiple open looks. Painful to watch. Thiam needs to head to the bench, and Eugene should start. The best thing we saw today was a pulse from Duke and Sa. I get your big picture stuff, Bac, but there are a lot of games left in the season, and I need a reason to attend and watch other than dreams of shooters and blind loyalty.

When you give up 62 points 6 tines and lose...it means you have an offensive problem
And your answer why we are 12-11 and not 16-7.

And it’s not because we slow it down

 

[NickKnight 1]

People need to notice that the last few games Baker and Sanders have been swarmed everytime they touch the ball. They will continue to shoot badly and continue to be shut down and it’s no fault of their own. Teams know we have no offense without them and as long as they neutralize our two scorers we are easy to beat. Williams injury only making this problem worse as well. Unfortunately there’s nothing this team can do because nobody else is good enough to step up offensively make up for their absence

Looks like someone finally got it right. It is easy for defenses, especially strong ones like last night, to concentrate on our two guards
when we don't have much more offense on the team. I think coach P. can teach any player defense so why not focus on recruiting
shooters and teach the rest. He has has taught and demanded defense to Geo Baker, Williams and Sanders.

 

[jonS]

People need to notice that the last few games Baker and Sanders have been swarmed everytime they touch the ball. They will continue to shoot badly and continue to be shut down and it’s no fault of their own. Teams know we have no offense without them and as long as they neutralize our two scorers we are easy to beat. Williams injury only making this problem worse as well. Unfortunately there’s nothing this team can do because nobody else is good enough to step up offensively make up for their absence

I agree with you 100%. Williams injury has hurt a lot because we have no quality depth , others have not picked up the scoring loss , and , as you've pointed out, teams are determined to take away Geo and Corey as scoring options. Unfortunately , except for a few bursts from Thiam , none of the other players can take their man off the dribble and score. We also miss greatly Williams' hustle and energy , key offensive rebounds, timely points and tough defense.

 

[Debtbubble]

Same old Rutgers

 

[RC85]

Good Corey means we can be in almost any game to win, bad Corey and we almost zero chance to win a game. Reminds me of the good Gary/bad Gary days of RU football not too long ago.