GAME 7 ILLINOIS: A cold slap to the face

[zebnatto]

The strategy of feeding Cliff in the post is not working. Stunning how obvious this is.
Same with passing to AH on wing and having him back down defender.
GG should be the centerpiece of our half court offense. Accept the growing pains.
AW has got to wake up and play with a fire in his belly.
Think of JMike as a defensive specialist and transition player.

 

[S_Janowski]

I am here and sometimes reality sets in for fans. The harsh reality is that this year's roster is still developing, where last year's roster was iron cast in February and March. Is there a stark difference in play that we saw at the RAC last year, vs what we saw vs Illinois on Saturday?? Not really.

I don't know what was different from bacs post game vs Illinois vs the following post games from last year at the RAC.....vs Nebraska, vs Michigan, vs Iowa, vs Northwestern, vs Seton Hall.....vs Hofstra (Hofstra????).......and now vs Illinois. All of these games were losses. I don't need to watch the games from last year to this year to know that Mulcahy isn't guarding Terrance Shannon.....Cam Spencer didnt score points or demonstrate any semblance of a player capable of scoring points when necessary down the stretch last year.

There are programs in transition, which is where RU has been now for 1 season and now 7 games in this year......this isn't unexpected, but we are building something beyond the limitations of last year into the future.....sometimes that process is ugly to watch but it is necessary for the future goals.

I saw RU at 58 points.....last years games at the RAC in regulation had the Ohio State team under 60 in regulation....Northwestern under 60......Michigan under 50 at 45 points........Seton Hall was a paltry 43 points at home.....even in wins vs Maryland at the RAC, RU struggled to reach 60 points.

Why is that sustainable or suddenly expected that Mulcahy and Spencer this year, would stop Illinois 1 on 1 as defenders?? Would they score 20 points a piece and outscore a good Illinois team??? We know that answer is NO.....

Please ase stop lying to yourselves about the trend lines of last year as if they didn't exist......and I give the staff credit. They cut their losses and are going to get rewarded down the road for doing so. They're not running it back with 30 minutes a game again and we're going to live with the results for minutes this year from Simpson, Davis, Griffiths and Woolfolk. And compliment those minutes with Fernandes and Austin Williams.....

If you watch Illinois, keep in mind they actually HAD RU guard Jeremiah Williams committed to them. He looks, plays and would have given them another 2-way guard, if he was somehow not caught up in the nonsense at Iowa State. There is a reason we're lucky enough to have him on RU. He gives RU a guard that can match up down the road, as a bigger guard to play that type of game.

Last years team, for 4 months was NOT a NCAA tournament team.....if Mulcahy averaged 8.5 points per game last year or for his 4 year career and Austin Williams scored 9 today, what is the huge difference.....??

If Austin Williams gives your 4 rebounds and 3 assists, how much of a difference are we talking about?? The difference is RU isn't asking Austin Williams to gobble up 33 minutes a game, we can get that type of production, in a bridge year to 2024-25, that allows Davis, Simpson and Griffiths to play.....get knocked around.....find out who wants to compete and how fast can they get better from November to February/March.

Gavin Griffiths taking a couple of 3s and making them.....that's as much production Spencer was providing in February and March last year. At least I get to see Griffiths develop this year and into 2024-25.

BUT i get it.....fans want immediate results today. They want 20 wins this year.....we were closer to 15 or 16 wins on paper last year than 19 wins folks.....

So is it fixable and can RU win enough games this year?? I think the question is, what is most important to you as a fan....???? If it is winning as many games as possible this year, then you play Austin Williams, Noah Fernandes more.....and live with the results.....BUT why does that make sense.....??? They're the same caliber of veteran guards we had last year....... Maybe better in some areas, worse in others.....no tangible difference stat wise or results wise in PPG so far this year.

Here's the larger trend that is part Spencer, part Mulcahy, part Mag, and now into this year vs Illinois.

There's no true path for long-term success, unless you get away from players who aren't athletic and aren't limited. This is the scoring breakdown of MOST games last year. Are there a couple of outliers like playing Minnesota twice?? Sure, but I'm not counting Q3 or Q4 games.

61 Miami (road)
63 Indiana (RAC)
66 Ohio State (road)
43 Seton Hall (RAC)
64 Maryland (RAC)
65 Iowa (RAC)
65 Purdue (road)
65 Northwestern (road)
57 Ohio State (RAC 40 minutes)
65 Penn State (RAC)
61 Michigan State (MSG)
60 Indiana (road)
60 Illinois (road)
72 Nebraska (RAC)
58 Wisconsin (road)
45 Michigan (RAC)
59 PSU (road)
53 Northwestern (RAC)
62 Michigan (B1G tournament)
65 Purdue (B1G tournament)
58 Illinois (RAC)

I have 20+ relevant games stretched over a season and 1 game vs Illinois.....if someone wants to include Princeton its 61 vs them......RU averages 60 PPG over these 20+ games.....that's the harsh reality, we are trying to change as we go forward this year and into 2024-25. 60PPG is NOT the standard needed.

Is that all Mulcahy, Spencer (mostly all of it is)....is that with Mag being in or out?? A lot of both him in and out.

How do you correct a 20 game trend from last year overnight into this year, 7 games into the season...?? Are Princeton and Illinois more of the same??

I am holding all judgement until i see a full 20 game sample size against similar competition this year..... AND i understand clearly, that 60PPG is apparently the standard for fans crying about Spencer and Mulcahy......60PPG.......????...really folks, that's what you see over 20 legit games, home and away......keep in mind, some of those point totals were actuality in wins........but is that sustainable or the goal, to gold every team we play, under 60 points......?? It is not sustainable, but I'm fine changing things that clearly did NOT work last year......

Sooo.....we now go to the last potential excuse that some fans are clinging and hoping for, that is not a reality-based mindset.....but lets look at the Mawot Mag situation .....as a basketball player, glue guy, rebounder, defender....player who to me, has become the fans and appears to be spreading into the teams biggest distraction......the biggest unknown.....

The one player who I believe (not asking anyone to believe me, i just use my eyes and ears) has clearly bought into a false media narrative that he is the reason RU fell apart last year......so what are we seeing or not seeing??

What we aren't seeing is Mag on the court competing.....I see a player that from everything I see, appears disengaged....disconnected.....a player who is just not what other RU players before him, have shown a willingness and ability to do.....play when you aren't 100% or close to it.....

But ut Hawk isn't being fair.......!!!.....I'm just using the prior standard that helped build the RU program and asking fans to be realistic......what is the standard that Pike and this staff is built upon......??? Don't lie to yourself, here is the standard that's been set.....but ultimately, I am not losing any sleep over results this year nor any one player. But I am going to answer the question for fans THIS year and ask about Mag and is this the standard??

When Mulcahy wrenched his shoulder, he played through it....when he banged up his finger, he played through it. Did anyone ever question his willingness to play through injuries, bumps and bruises......NO......does it mean Mulcahy is required to be a full time starter again this season?? No, his departure is a separate topic we have already discussed.

When Geo Baker cracked his thumb, he came back WAY too early. Because he knew his team needed him as a leader, even if it affected his play for 3 to 4 weeks AFTER he returned. Could he have sat out and waited....sure, but he didnt....and fans crushed him anyway on here, when he shot 3-12 or 1 of 6 from 3.....let's continue....

When RHJ jammed his foot and leg, he played through it....did he look like a player at full speed, with lift and power after his injury.....NO.....but he dragged himself onto the court anyway.....

When Caleb McConnell had his knee scoped, multiple injuries.....he came back with a back brace and was clearly limited for a solid month or so last year.........he eventually rounded into shape last year, but was still further away from the prior year, where he pinned shots on the backboard vs Ohio State....it was going to take a LOT for him to not play. When I visibly see a warrior that is at 75% max, I give that player credit for laying it out on the line......

When Eugene dislocated his knee cap....twice.....I saw a player play at 65 to 75% multiple times over extended periods of time....and a kid who worked VERY hard to compete....was he a limited and developing player at that time?? YES, but there were others who also player through it....doesn't change how he left the program but NO one questioned his grit, toughness or willingness to play at less than 100% ever.....

Why am I bringing this up, during a 2nd transition year into a better brand of basketball away from limited players etc.......because I have a player in Mawot Mag and I see every fan desperately trying to give a player all the credit or as the sole reason RU fell apart.....BUT I don't see anyone asking....when is he going to play??? The fans blinded by falsehoods, aren't holding Mag to the same standards......if we want to crush RHJ, Geo and others when they didn't play or hit every key shot, when do we hold Mag to the standard?? We have all heard he's been cleared.....Soooo....what's the delay folks....??

Are we saying he can't give his teammates or coaching staff that spent time and effort developing him ANY minutes.....???? Please stop folks........when do we deal in reality that we need to stop hyping up a player who hasn't earned the hype as a key player.

To recap.....this is a roster that averages for the most part 60PPG last year and scored 58 vs Illinois. If we are averaging 60 PPG for the next 20 B1G or Power 5/6 relevant games, then we are at a break even point or where we stood last year. Nothing more, nothing less.

To add to that recap for THIS year, I will sit and wait for Mag to play when he's full and ready to play.....and I will watch a player who might be bought into his own hype, sit and watch.....or whatever you want to believe.

My only question for the fans clinging to this nonsense...if he's that important and he's been medically cleared and his HC is essentially telling you now 5 separate times that he's waiting for Mag, what should that tell you?? When does the double standard of hype stop??

I am just watching basketball and I reserving judgement on this year, until I see more basketball. It looks like most of last year's 20 game sample size in 2 games so far, but there's a lot of upside to this roster. We were a couple of very close wins (Purdue, NW, Ohio State OT, at Wisconsin, at PSU) last year from a 7-13 type of B1G schedule and results.....mixed with a significant amount of double digit losses last year. And that includes a debacle at Minnesota.

So we can change things up and build with some younger guards, or lie to yourself that the 60PPG last year with Spencer, Mulcahy, Mag didn't happen.

And Mag is the X factor for now, sitting idle and not competing, right???

I'll wait for the smoke and responses....my Seahawks are off today on Sunday and the Niners/Eagles isn't until 4PM or so.....😁😁

37 paragraphs! That’s almost a record for you Hawk LOL.

Not sure what almost 99% of what you wrote has to do with the simple truth that:

Our current team isn’t as good as prior years….including last year’s team with Mulcahy and Spencer.

 

[Scarlet Blind]

This Noah Derek Hyatt Woolf Cliff lineup needs to end yesterday. That lineup is clunky and no one looks for or can get off their shot.

Pike wants to develop Woolf quicker in the starting lineup but Cliff and Woolf don't work on the floor together because neither can hit an outside shot, he is the replacement for Cliff next year at the 5 not a fill in starter at the 4.

Pike was hoping Mag would be back to share the 4 with Hyatt but it didn't happen, Hyatt does work better as a 4 inside/outside than a 3 which means he has to get either Oskar or Chol as primary backup at the 4 somehow until Mag is ready. Gavin can't play 4.

The other 120 minutes need to be covered by any combination of Noah, JMike, Derek, Austin and Gavin. Mostly Austin Gavin at the 3 and the other three at the 1 and 2.

That my best suggestion after watching this team play it's first B1G opponent. This team looked disjointed in half court sets on offense like too many players playing in the wrong spots/positions on the floor. These changes might open up wider driving lanes for our guards to finish not having so many defenders/traffic in the lanes. Most of our guards are slasher/scorers types but neither Cliff or Woolf are consistent enough to hit an outside shot to draw their defender away from the basket. Both on the floor is making it 2x worse. That's why Hyatt at the 4 is so important to open lanes for guards to drive thru, which might lead to easier finishes and more open shots from 3 or outside.

 

[Shelby65]

The strategy of feeding Cliff in the post is not working. Stunning how obvious this is.
Same with passing to AH on wing and having him back down defender.
GG should be the centerpiece of our half court offense. Accept the growing pains.
AW has got to wake up and play with a fire in his belly.
Think of JMike as a defensive specialist and transition player.

Of course it’s obvious. Of course Pike realizes. Cliff ‘needs to get his’ and have nba showcasing opportunities. all high major coaches accommodate and pamper keep top players engaged and recruit. He does seem like a drama queen at times, imagine how he’d act if he rarely got opportunities.

It’s not even Cliff being selfish. It’s just how the game is nowadays.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

37 paragraphs! That’s almost a record for you Hawk LOL.

Not sure what almost 99% of what you wrote has to do with the simple truth that:

Our current team isn’t as good as prior years….including last year’s team with Mulcahy and Spencer.

It's a lot, because there's a lot here.

Mag is an unnecessary distraction.....if you can't see that, not sure what to tell you.

I add context.....detail......facts.....

It takes time to break things down. But staying in denial is a very harsh reality for you and a bunch of others. It's OK, I'll lead to the information, it's up to you to at some point accept the facts.

I will ask you again a very specific question, since you are stumped.
I am not in the press....dont need to be a moderator..... .

If you watch the press conferences or read the responses from Pike, when have you heard the HC not protect his players, even those that didn't warrant it??

I will add what I did in other posts, while you and others sit and wait and kiss the feet of Mag.....the rest of the roster is going to compete and we get to find out, who earns minutes and who earns playing time this year and beyond.

How do you think we should read into the response "we are waiting for Mawot to say when he's ready to play"......say what??? LMAO

I'll wait.... I have all day.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I agree with NJH regarding Mag.

 

[Salvi's Headband]

Two years ago today we lost to Illinois 86-51. We went on to finish top 4 in the Big Ten! Just food for thought.

 

[bac2therac]

I agree with NJH regarding Mag.

I do too but everything else no

 

[rufeelinit]

It's a lot, because there's a lot here.

Mag is an unnecessary distraction.....if you can't see that, not sure what to tell you.

I add context.....detail......facts.....

It takes time to break things down. But staying in denial is a very harsh reality for you and a bunch of others. It's OK, I'll lead to the information, it's up to you to at some point accept the facts.

I will ask you again a very specific question, since you are stumped.
I am not in the press....dont need to be a moderator..... .

If you watch the press conferences or read the responses from Pike, when have you heard the HC not protect his players, even those that didn't warrant it??

I will add what I did in other posts, while you and others sit and wait and kiss the feet of Mag.....the rest of the roster is going to compete and we get to find out, who earns minutes and who earns playing time this year and beyond.

How do you think we should read into the response "we are waiting for Mawot to say when he's ready to play"......say what??? LMAO

I'll wait.... I have all day.

Would be interested in your take on the job the staff has done improving Cliff's offensive game during his time here. I assume Lathan and Ace's offensive skills are more advanced than Cliff's were coming in but I just don't understand the lack of progress in his ability on the offensive end. He flashes every once in a while but I would have expected more development and consistency. I used to think that if you put a couple of shooter around him he would be better, but he just does not finish well at all.

 

[billgumpper]

I’ve said the last 3 years that when we play the cup cakes they are tune up games. It’s a good way to judge your Big 10 team because you should dominate them in every aspect of the game, if you don’t it should throw up immediate red flags.

 

[ScarletNut]

As I posted in another thread:

How hard is it for Cliff to develop a drop step. Even when he's fed the ball at the low post with his back to the rim, his only move is toward the paint and he either loses the dribble or puts up a shot/hook with no soft touch. How about faking the move to the paint and drop step to the rim/backboard for an easy shot? Its a vital weapon that all good big men have and yet, not for Cliff.

 

[willisneverrana43]

. . .

To recap.....

My third favorite part of this post is that this particular "To recap" followed 30 previous paragraphs.


My second favorite part of this post is that the next paragraph began this way:

. . .

To add to that recap . . .

And my first favorite part of this post is that five more paragraphs then followed.

 

[jonS]

BAC--your write up is one of the best I've read in some time because it is so dead on. The warning signs have been there if we wanted to see them. We are soft and were pushed around by a very good Illinois team. Just recall the St Peters game and forget the final score . Big scoring drought at the beginning of the game. Asking Cliff to make offensive plays down low was a failure. He's best when scoring off errant shots and dunks. We were destroyed on the boards by St Peters. Not Duke , Kentucky or Purdue. Yes St Peters. How can we play effective and winning defense if we can't rebound and teams get multiple second and third chances? We have no power forward that can rebound and help Cliff guard the rim and our guards are too small to help out. Woolfolk has been asked to do that but it has not worked. He has limited offensive skills, misses FTs, , and he just doesn't clean the boards. Hyatt is not a starter and wouldn't start for any Big Team. . He failed last year when Mags went down and isn't any better this year. When he isn't hitting shots , what are his contributions? I agree with BAC 100%--Gavin needs to start --there is a reason we begin games and halves with our current lineup and have scoring droughts--having Cliff and Woolfolk out there results in little to no offense and when Hyatt is missing , we look horrible. I still like our guards , they're talented but small and looked overmatched against Illinois quick physical guards. Mags when healthy ( unlikely) will help but not to the extent people are hoping. He is not a physically dominant player that will help off the boards and his offensive game was just beginning to develop. Maybe Illinois was a bad matchup because of their physicality ......We shall see as the season unfolds. I fear it's harbinger of things to come.

 

[Scarlet Blind]

I wouldn't doubt Mag is getting the best advice/council from Austin Williams who went through an ACL tear himself and sat out 22-23 but could've returned Jan/Feb. Depending on how close he is to feeling 100% in the season, he might not waste a year of eligibility on 10-15 games left in the season, I would think if Mag doesn't play a minute before January, Mag is not playing this year. I can't see him being worked slowly into the rotation of B1G schedule, but it is his decision either way.

 

[zebnatto]

Of course it’s obvious. Of course Pike realizes. Cliff ‘needs to get his’ and have nba showcasing opportunities. all high major coaches accommodate and pamper keep top players engaged and recruit. He does seem like a drama queen at times, imagine how he’d act if he rarely got opportunities.

It’s not even Cliff being selfish. It’s just how the game is nowadays.

I do get it, Shelby. You’re stuck weighing commitments made to Cliff against what’s best for the team. But can any scout be impressed with what they’re seeing?

 

[rutobs]

My fears were realized. I know I am not alone here. The messiness could be excused for the Princeton game. It appeared we made some strides in a few of the following game. The St Peters game raised major red flags for me despite winning by 31. Today, the program has a hard cold slap in the face. Coming off of 4 successful years (albeit last year failing to make the NCAA tourney) the program has grown a reputation for being legit and a tough out. The fanbase has come to expect Rutgers to compete night and out with a gritty toughness that leans mainly on defense. We have also had expecations of competing for a NCAA bid this year. I will say some offseason departures have thrown quite the monkey wrench into this and its highlighting a bunch of recruiting miscues that to me is going to have an impact on the ceiling for this season. Next year is next year and it happens when it happens. We have Ace and Summerville coming in and fingers crossed for Dylan. I know Pike is going to get a pass for shaky recruiting this year because of what is coming next year. I get that but the plain fact may remain this team as its currently constructed does not look good enough to contend for a NCAA bid in 2024. Now this is just one game but this team as CURRENTLY constructed with this CURRENT lineup and CURRENT philosophy is not going to get it done.

For starters lost in all this is how good Illinois is. This is clearly a team going places. Illinois is likely a top 4 Big 10 team and shoo in NCAA participant. They have incredible physical presence on the court. Their rebounding philosphy is a thing of beauty. Underwood has them brimming with confidence and you can see that with their purpose offensively to attack and attack and then if they miss attack the glass. There is no shame in losing to Illinois. Its not that we lost or even that we lost by 18. Its that we looked like boys against men. To me that is a bucket of ice water to the balls for the 2023-2024 season. How does Rutgers go from being at the Illinois level and beating them 4 of 5 times to basically being wiped off their own home court by them. Pikiell traded in his big guard philsophy for a bunch of midgets who bounce off and getting swatted away like flies by a bunch of studs. Again recruiting recruiting recruiting and Pikiell has recruited a group of nice players but most of them complimentary players not Big 10 starting level. Would any of our current starting lineup except perhaps Cliff start on Illinois? Yet we keep hearing a small segment of our fans lecture on how Cam and Mulcahy were not huge losses. They were but I do not want to lament that. They are gone and Pike has to win with what he has

I keep hearing stuff how we need Mag back. Well I hope Pike went into the year knowing that Mag might not be back until January or even February. IMO, Pike has had plenty of time dating back to last year to make up for the loss of Mag. Mag is not some miracle vaccine for this team which has multiple ailments. Be prepared to play without Mag. Be prepared for the possibility that Mag does not even come back. I am not saying its going to happen but this program needs to develop with or without Mag. I actually am not happy that Mag tried to cash in and got more money from Rutgers coming off an injury. To me that just did not sit well with me given Rutgers was going to do everything to make sure Mag was well taken care of his with his health and education. So for now there is no Mag and more importantly a 100% Mag is likely needed for this team to reach any lofty goals.

As far as whats going on with court play. The continuation of slow starts has hampered Rutgers almost every game this year. Multiple horrid offensive stretches vs St Peters were realized again vs Illinois. To start the game Rutgers could not buy as basket and what an indictment that the first basket until 13:31 mark of the 1st half. By then RU was already down 14-2 and playing catch up right from the get go. A team cannot spot 15-16 point leads to a team as talented as Illinois and expect a positive result. To Rutgers credit they did not give up and showed some major resilience riding a crest from a press that bothered the bejesused out the Illini and a raucous RAC crowd that was carrying this team on its bad even when down double digits. Its amazing the resilience the RAC crowd showed in the first half. RU would raise hopes getting within 3 late in the first half. Yet it was fools gold really. RU down just 41-36 at half. It seemed like a game yet it appeared that RU had no business being that close. That proved true as RU was not able to mount any serious challenge to Illinois in the first few minutes of the 2nd half going back to its same predictable inefficient starting lineup and forcing offensive plays that have proven not to work. Alas the dam would break over a 6 minute period where Illinois just beat Rutgers down like a drum. An 18-2 run where RU had exactly zero field goals made. It was about as noxious a stretch under a Pikiell coached team as you have ever seen at the RAC and magnifed where Illinios currently sits and how much Rutgers has fallen behind.

Lineups and rotations are a hot topic on the board and they should be. 7 games and Pike still is confused. Players are being forced to do things they simply are not capable for. Perhaps a realization sets in that this year in terms of NCAA may not be in the cards. Youth and promise vs the old tired routine of trying to make something square fit in a round hole. The insistence on trying to feed the ball to Cliff every single game is not working. It did not work vs the weaker schools then why would it work against a team like Illinois. Cliff has regressed. There I said it. Yes he can play defense at time and block shots and had 8 tonight but he is just not cutting it as an offensive threat. Cliff with 5 turnovers, catching air and missing surefire alleyoops. Hyatt is our leading shot taker and our offense is running through him yet on most Big 10 teams he is a 7th player at best. 5-22 fg over the past 2 games. Our 3 small guards going 3-17 fg combined with only 4 assists. Physically totally overmatched vs Illinois. I like Woofolk but he is not starter and starting him with Cliff is killing our offense. They cannot be playing together. He had only 2 rebounds in 23 minutes!

No surprise that our biggest guard had the most impact in this game. Bravo Austin Williams who has had sporadic play all year long. Austin had 9 tonight on 3-6 fg, 4 boards, 3 assists and was almost single handedly responsible for getting RU back into the game offensively in the first half. A case could be made Austin needed to play more and that Pike took him out just as he was getting hot and unfortunately didnt start him in the 2nd. Pike's stubborness of having to play the same starters in the 2nd half is mind boggling. Not one person on this team really except for Cliff should be guarantee a starting spot on the roster. That some players like Hyatt are just given minutes needs to change.

And then we come to Gavin. You know I for one and tired of the he does not play bullshit thing especially when I saw a few small guards give up wide open 3s and get blown by for layups. Lets cut this ridiculous notion that he isnt playing because he is defense is terrible. Gavin needs to start. There I said it. He needs to be a more focal point of our offense. This is one of the highest rated recruits Rutgers has ever had yet somehow on a team that cannot put the ball on the bucket he sits during scoring droughts and when he is inserted his role is to hang out on the perimeter. Pike you need to do better with him. Gavin is part of the future. He will not be if he continues to play limited role. I get why a freshman should not shoulder a large rule. Unfortunately because of how Pike has handled recruiting, this is the situation we find ourselves at. The options are limited and I have seen enough to realize what we are seeing on offense this year is not working

And what is the Rutgers offense? Alot of discussion on the boards about identity and purpose. If RU is not converting off of turnovers it does not look they are comfortable at all in the half court set. I see alot of ill advised hoists and one on one stuff with no one under the boards not to mention Rutgers likely leading the lead in missed bunnies. There was talk in the offseason about this team being the fastest ever and capable of scoring 75 plus a game..wait wut. With what players and what shooting capabilities?

Again Illinois is very good. RU got a test today and failed. Not every team will pose the same challenges. These next two games though really are the acid test for the program. ANY hope of reaching the NCAA rests in the next 2. Wake is going to present problems on the road in a different way than Illinois more finesse than physical. Seton Hall a rivarly game that could exploit the perceived softness of Rutgers. Pike is going to have to make changes and make them quickly. Its has to happen. It needs to happen.

Good assessment here

 

[biazza38]

As I posted in another thread:

How hard is it for Cliff to develop a drop step. Even when he's fed the ball at the low post with his back to the rim, his only move is toward the paint and he either loses the dribble or puts up a shot/hook with no soft touch. How about faking the move to the paint and drop step to the rim/backboard for an easy shot? It’s a vital weapon that all good big men have and yet, not for Cliff.

He was perfect position to drop step and use the glass on a play yesterday. Instead, he got low and basically ducked into a defender. No clue what he’s doing

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

As I posted in another thread:

How hard is it for Cliff to develop a drop step. Even when he's fed the ball at the low post with his back to the rim, his only move is toward the paint and he either loses the dribble or puts up a shot/hook with no soft touch. How about faking the move to the paint and drop step to the rim/backboard for an easy shot? Its a vital weapon that all good big men have and yet, not for Cliff.

I don't know if it is on Cliff, the staff, or both. Cliff doesn't have a tool box. Should be human nature right now for him if he feels the defender over playing the middle it is a quick drop step.

 

[Saint Puppy]

I do get it, Shelby. You’re stuck weighing commitments made to Cliff against what’s best for the team. But can any scout be impressed with what they’re seeing?

I understand it too - you do owe something to your star recruits. That being said they don't get the keys to the castle with free reign. You can't let Cliff bring down the whole thing - his negative affect on the offense is glaring.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

The strategy of feeding Cliff in the post is not working. Stunning how obvious this is.
Same with passing to AH on wing and having him back down defender.
GG should be the centerpiece of our half court offense. Accept the growing pains.
AW has got to wake up and play with a fire in his belly.
Think of JMike as a defensive specialist and transition player.

The stunning obvious part isn't the feeding to Cliff....it is not using screening action to get Cliff deeper. If we are going to start Cliff and Woolfolk why isnt Woolfolk being used to help Cliff get the ball deeper and being a guy to find him from the high post.

This tell Cliff by himself to muscle and get as close to the low box is just dumb. You can go on the internet and find loads of ways with down screens to get him the ball deep. Add in to that having Gavin as a potential wing. I got to think you could have success featuring Gavin, Cliff and Woolfolk. Woolfolk is a decent and willing passer.

 

[Shelby65]

I do get it, Shelby. You’re stuck weighing commitments made to Cliff against what’s best for the team. But can any scout be impressed with what they’re seeing?

No, but that doesn’t change Pike’s commitment to and pampering of Cliff. And like I said about recruiting, it’s also important for future recruiting that top players can come here and have full opportunity to showcase their skills, or should I say, the skills they think they have.

Obviously there’s no Xs and Os reason to continue to let Cliff flail and fail with the ball.

 

[Scangg]

Mag whiplash from Hawk. After being completely wrong on Mag forever and not thinking he was any good, he then has started to say how valuable he will be this year... now he's back to saying Mag won't matter

This team has been getting absolutely destroyed on the boards. Mag is a good rebounder. Effort toughness and grit seem to be lacking. Mag brings all of that

If we play our backup 5 Wolf at the 4 and we can't rebound, it's unlikely any lineup combination is going to fix this. Mag back actually might fix it... or at least make it a smaller problem that we can overcome to win games vs a massive deficit that makes it nearly impossible to win

 

[Saint Puppy]

Mag whiplash from Hawk. After being completely wrong on Mag forever and not thinking he was any good, he then has started to say how valuable he will be this year... now he's back to saying Mag won't matter

This team has been getting absolutely destroyed on the boards. Mag is a good rebounder. Effort toughness and grit seem to be lacking. Mag brings all of that

If we play our backup 5 Wolf at the 4 and we can't rebound, it's unlikely any lineup combination is going to fix this. Mag back actually might fix it... or at least make it a smaller problem that we can overcome to win games vs a massive deficit that makes it nearly impossible to win

Couldn't agree more - Mag is being made to seem a net neutral and that's just not true. Mag at 100% very much helps this team. No, it doesn't solve everything, but Mag is definitely needed.

 

[Degaz-RU]

An excellent re-bac as usual. Bac always has his finger on the pulse of team trends and fan sentiment, and this one was spot on.

As for Hawk’s 37-paragraph response, it’s just amazing to me that you got what you wanted — quicker guards — but you haven’t really addressed the fact that the offense is no better this year, and the defense is clearly worse.

I do see the point that we’re only 7 games into this new regime, but can you at least acknowledge that what we’ve all seen so far from these guards (and the team over all) is a cause for concern?

At least you’re no longer beating the drum that GG is a “two guard,” which is so clearly NOT the case. But we all agree that GG needs more minutes, defensive warts and all.

But this attack on a guy coming back from an ACL injury? Holy cow, way off base there. There are mental aspects to an ACL injury that being PHYSICALLY cleared to return doesn’t capture. You have no idea what is going on with Mag, and to suggest that he’s not the leader Caleb, Geo, or Ron were simply because he hasn’t returned to action less than 10 months post ACL surgery is insulting and absurd.

Oh, and just a friendly reminder that we were 16-7 (8-4) last year before he went down, while scoring those 65 points per game.

I guess we will give you your 13 additional games with this new look lineup for you to provide an analysis of the team with your desired sample size of 20 games. I’m willing to acknowledge that 7 games is a small-ish sample size, but I’m also gravely concerned with the trends that are glaringly obvious thus far.

Until then…

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

I do too but everything else no

Everything else no.....what is missing for you....??

The 20+ games of 60PPG.....

The path that is cleared that allows RU to see how fast Simpson, Gavin and Davis get to develop in the backcourt??

RU landed another dynamic guard in Jeremiah Williams, who can

My third favorite part of this post is that this particular "To recap" followed 30 previous paragraphs.


My second favorite part of this post is that the next paragraph began this way:



And my first favorite part of this post is that five more paragraphs then followed.

Exactly.....this is an ugly transition and unfortunately it's going to be difficult for almost any fan who looks at things through a 1 year lease.

What my hoops eyes tell me is what I post about. I'm asking legitimate questions about a coaching staff who's rebuilt this program and is now taking it to new levels. These things cannot happen without talent, athletes and skill level that looks and moves like other ranked programs.

The other thing that keeps coming up from some Big East historians and such, is this narrative that we see that says "the B1G is down this year"......it gets repeated as often as I saw the countless nonsense about Mag being the reason RU fell apart.

I watched Illinois and they've typically been talented, but this year's version "looks" different on TV and how they move. This wasn't the plodding units under Kofi Cockburn 2 to 3 years ago. I could be wrong but the team at the RAC looked significantly better in every phase, than the 1 seed that lost to Loyola Chicago in the 2nd round of the NCAAs.

But, I get it.....the league and talent is trash according to all the experts because there's no National Titles since 2000.....even though there have been multiple Final Four or Final Game appearances in the last 20+ years.

I'm going to hammer the point home until it sinks in. Most of CBB starts and ends with the talent, skill levels of your backcourt. 2022-2023 was no different for RUs backcourt. We need to see improvements from November to February from our guards.

I am seeing Cliff criticism and while it is fair (to me), I also want to ask if a player never arrived as a scoring threat, shooter and never carried that in his game, how much can the player improve into a NBA player that dominates overnight??

Cliff had an awful game.....and at the same time, if someone has never been the focal point of an offense in HS or in college, why is it really expected that the player somehow jumps into that space??

Cliff on offense is not my issue. Cliff on defense is 100% my issue.

You cannot be the last line of defense AND aggressively try and alter or block every shot. With every shot Cliff goes for, is 1 less rebound he can get. Cliff needs to tailor his defense towards positioning and using his arms and length and then locating and tracking the ball for the rebound.

If Cliff or the staff can correct that aspect, his rebounds go way up. He gets into the flow of the game and plays under control. This isn't the playground, where the oohs and aahs get you credit for swatting a shot into the 3rd row. Good players know how to avoid having their shot blocked.

If and when Cliff fixes that and Woolfolk decides that he wants to rebound the ball, is when this season turns around. The other pieces or players are doing what I expect them to. Right now I don't see a team defense mindset from Cliff. That needs to change ASAP.

The rebounding fallout starts and ends with this correction. I expect Pike, Knight and staff to reign Cliff in and get him back on track.

 

[Scangg]

Everything else no.....what is missing for you....??

The 20+ games of 60PPG.....

The path that is cleared that allows RU to see how fast Simpson, Gavin and Davis get to develop in the backcourt??

RU landed another dynamic guard in Jeremiah Williams, who can

Exactly.....this is an ugly transition and unfortunately it's going to be difficult for almost any fan who looks at things through a 1 year lease.

What my hoops eyes tell me is what I post about. I'm asking legitimate questions about a coaching staff who's rebuilt this program and is now taking it to new levels. These things cannot happen without talent, athletes and skill level that looks and moves like other ranked programs.

The other thing that keeps coming up from some Big East historians and such, is this narrative that we see that says "the B1G is down this year"......it gets repeated as often as I saw the countless nonsense about Mag being the reason RU fell apart.

I watched Illinois and they've typically been talented, but this year's version "looks" different on TV and how they move. This wasn't the plodding units under Kofi Cockburn 2 to 3 years ago. I could be wrong but the team at the RAC looked significantly better in every phase, than the 1 seed that lost to Loyola Chicago in the 2nd round of the NCAAs.

But, I get it.....the league and talent is trash according to all the experts because there's no National Titles since 2000.....even though there have been multiple Final Four or Final Game appearances in the last 20+ years.

I'm going to hammer the point home until it sinks in. Most of CBB starts and ends with the talent, skill levels of your backcourt. 2022-2023 was no different for RUs backcourt. We need to see improvements from November to February from our guards.

I am seeing Cliff criticism and while it is fair (to me), I also want to ask if a player never arrived as a scoring threat, shooter and never carried that in his game, how much can the player improve into a NBA player that dominates overnight??

Cliff had an awful game.....and at the same time, if someone has never been the focal point of an offense in HS or in college, why is it really expected that the player somehow jumps into that space??

Cliff on offense is not my issue. Cliff on defense is 100% my issue.

You cannot be the last line of defense AND aggressively try and alter or block every shot. With every shot Cliff goes for, is 1 less rebound he can get. Cliff needs to tailor his defense towards positioning and using his arms and length and then locating and tracking the ball for the rebound.

If Cliff or the staff can correct that aspect, his rebounds go way up. He gets into the flow of the game and plays under control. This isn't the playground, where the oohs and aahs get you credit for swatting a shot into the 3rd row. Good players know how to avoid having their shot blocked.

If and when Cliff fixes that and Woolfolk decides that he wants to rebound the ball, is when this season turns around. The other pieces or players are doing what I expect them to. Right now I don't see a team defense mindset from Cliff. That needs to change ASAP.

The rebounding fallout starts and ends with this correction. I expect Pike, Knight and staff to reign Cliff in and get him back on track.

Agreed on Cliff not trying to block every shot. There are times he has no shot at it and needs to stay home and rebound. Other players need to be crashing the boards aggressively when Cliff does go for blocks though and they arent, especially on the weak side

Please stop bringing up Jeremiah. No one expects him to play this year. If he does unexpectedly get a waiver it would be amazing obviously, but no one is expecting that to happen so he's irrelevant this season. You keep bringing him up to defend this year's team being better, but he likely won't play a single minute

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

An excellent re-bac as usual. Bac always has his finger on the pulse of team trends and fan sentiment, and this one was spot on.

As for Hawk’s 37-paragraph response, it’s just amazing to me that you not what you wanted — quicker guards — but you haven’t really addressed the fact that the offense is no better this year, and the defense is clearly worse.

I do see the point that we’re only 7 games into this new regime, but can you at least acknowledge that what we’ve all seen so far from these guards (and the team over all) is a cause for concern?

At least you’re no longer beating the drum that GG is a “two guard,” which is so clearly NOT the case. But we all agree that GG needs more minutes, defensive warts and all.

But this attack on a guy coming back from an ACL injury? Holy cow, way off base there. There are mental aspects to an ACL injury that being PHYSICALLY cleared to return doesn’t capture. You have no idea what is going on with Mag, and to suggest that he’s not the leader Caleb, Geo, or Ron were simply because he hasn’t returned to action less than 10 months post ACL surgery is insulting and absurd.

Oh, and just a friendly reminder that we were 16-7 (8-4) last year before he went down, while scoring those 65 points per game.

I guess we will give you your 13 additional games with this new look lineup for you to provide an analysis of the team with your desired sample size of 20 games. I’m willing to acknowledge that 7 games is a small-ish sample size, but I’m also gravely concerned with the trends that are glaringly obvious thus far.

Until then…

I'll ask you the question....since you missed it.

What did the guards score yesterday.....what was the average PPG of the 5 guards last year in Power 5/6 competition??

I gave you TWENTY games and the point totals.....I left out a 13 point loss at Sparty, where RU scored 57 points.

Explain to me again, how that is successful, so I can understand it clearly. We play 3 guards, a hybrid forward and a center.

Mulcahy averaged 8.5 PPG....we score about 60 PPG in 80% of the Power 5/6 games against teams not named Minnesota.

Is that the standard you accept?? I don't.

It is the same dilemma in football.....you have fans in alternate universes that are giddy that RU won 6 games....but if you ask them what the plan is and you say "what about the offense", they say RU is going to a bowl game.

The response is "well Michigan State had their coach in a scandal, was up 24-6 in the 3rd quarter....then a punt was blocked, a kickoff muffed for another easy TD and fans act as if we drove 75 yards for 3 straight possessions for TDs....

The same concept applies to hoops.....the backcourt was not sufficient to winning. Winning a couple of games in the mid to low 50s, is not sustainable......if you subscribe to playing basketball games in the low 50s and playing lights out defense, great.....congratulations.....it's no different than saying Schiano should continue to run the ball 65% of the time, because that got RU to 6 wins.....

At what point does reality set in that you have to change and it's not going to happen overnight.

And my point on Mag stands.....he's a distraction....he's shown me NO semblance or anything close to earning this free pass you and others pass out like candy on Halloween......

How about he goes out and actually earns the praises and accolades that he's been labeled with.....his coach, one of the best and most patient in all of CBB, is sitting and waiting for a senior, to step up......do something.....do anything......free passes continue I guess......

 

[Degaz-RU]

Everything else no.....what is missing for you....??

The 20+ games of 60PPG.....

The path that is cleared that allows RU to see how fast Simpson, Gavin and Davis get to develop in the backcourt??

RU landed another dynamic guard in Jeremiah Williams, who can

Exactly.....this is an ugly transition and unfortunately it's going to be difficult for almost any fan who looks at things through a 1 year lease.

What my hoops eyes tell me is what I post about. I'm asking legitimate questions about a coaching staff who's rebuilt this program and is now taking it to new levels. These things cannot happen without talent, athletes and skill level that looks and moves like other ranked programs.

The other thing that keeps coming up from some Big East historians and such, is this narrative that we see that says "the B1G is down this year"......it gets repeated as often as I saw the countless nonsense about Mag being the reason RU fell apart.

I watched Illinois and they've typically been talented, but this year's version "looks" different on TV and how they move. This wasn't the plodding units under Kofi Cockburn 2 to 3 years ago. I could be wrong but the team at the RAC looked significantly better in every phase, than the 1 seed that lost to Loyola Chicago in the 2nd round of the NCAAs.

But, I get it.....the league and talent is trash according to all the experts because there's no National Titles since 2000.....even though there have been multiple Final Four or Final Game appearances in the last 20+ years.

I'm going to hammer the point home until it sinks in. Most of CBB starts and ends with the talent, skill levels of your backcourt. 2022-2023 was no different for RUs backcourt. We need to see improvements from November to February from our guards.

I am seeing Cliff criticism and while it is fair (to me), I also want to ask if a player never arrived as a scoring threat, shooter and never carried that in his game, how much can the player improve into a NBA player that dominates overnight??

Cliff had an awful game.....and at the same time, if someone has never been the focal point of an offense in HS or in college, why is it really expected that the player somehow jumps into that space??

Cliff on offense is not my issue. Cliff on defense is 100% my issue.

You cannot be the last line of defense AND aggressively try and alter or block every shot. With every shot Cliff goes for, is 1 less rebound he can get. Cliff needs to tailor his defense towards positioning and using his arms and length and then locating and tracking the ball for the rebound.

If Cliff or the staff can correct that aspect, his rebounds go way up. He gets into the flow of the game and plays under control. This isn't the playground, where the oohs and aahs get you credit for swatting a shot into the 3rd row. Good players know how to avoid having their shot blocked.

If and when Cliff fixes that and Woolfolk decides that he wants to rebound the ball, is when this season turns around. The other pieces or players are doing what I expect them to. Right now I don't see a team defense mindset from Cliff. That needs to change ASAP.

The rebounding fallout starts and ends with this correction. I expect Pike, Knight and staff to reign Cliff in and get him back on track.

The rebounding issue isn’t solely Cliff and Woolf. Pike’s teams have always had good rebounders at guard and wing, but this year’s team is sorely deficient in that respect.

Woolf is a major problem with rebounding. Cliff, not much of a concern. I’d rather him strike fear into opposing players who penetrate the paint with his shot blocking.

Not sure how you’re missing the aspect of the guards and wings being poor rebounders, unless it’s just further attempt to excuse their performance out of your bias toward smaller, quicker guards…

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Agreed on Cliff not trying to block every shot. There are times he has no shot at it and needs to stay home and rebound. Other players need to be crashing the boards aggressively when Cliff does go for blocks though and they arent, especially on the weak side

Please stop bringing up Jeremiah. No one expects him to play this year. If he does unexpectedly get a waiver it would be amazing obviously, but no one is expecting that to happen so he's irrelevant this season. You keep bringing him up to defend this year's team being better, but he likely won't play a single minute

I'll ask you the same question.....what was so great about last years backcourt, that had the team at 60PPG and had multiple games in the 50s and 2 at 45 to 43 point totals......I'll wait for your answer.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

The rebounding issue isn’t solely Cliff and Woolf. Pike’s teams have always had good rebounders at guard and wing, but this year’s team is sorely deficient in that respect.

Woolf is a major problem with rebounding. Cliff, not much of a concern. I’d rather him strike fear into opposing players who penetrate the paint with his shot blocking.

Not sure how you’re missing the aspect of the guards and wings being poor rebounders, unless it’s just further attempt to excuse their performance out of your bias toward smaller, quicker guards…

I don't have a preference in smaller or quicker guards.....I don't care if they're big or small, they need to be able to move. Last years group wasn't good. This year's group offers something different.

If you believe that Cliff can wildly attack shots and leave the glass, that is a fundamental no no in any level of basketball. Any reasonable offensive player can pump-fake and draw a foul from Cliff, trying to block shots. He's tall enough to not have to do that.

The other part is when you see him undisciplined and playing poor defense, you then see other players at the wings and guards doing the same thing. There is a fundamental defense of playing with you feet on the ground and closing out on shooters with feet down/hands up.

I counted at least 6 to 7 pump fakes and passes where Williams, Davis, Hyatt and others went for fakes, the ball moved for a better look for Illinois......watch the games and plays.

If you are playing proper defense, you guard turn to locate the ball and find it. You cannot rebound a miss, if you are lunging and out of position after trying to block a shot.

These are easy corrections that can be made and helped get the score out of hand yesterday.

 

[bac2therac]

The talent isnt there...that is on Pikes recruiting and he didnt anticipate the massive loss of Cam and Paul and the guys he has are 7th men type players...Hyatt Derek Wolf Noah

 

[Degaz-RU]

I'll ask you the question....since you missed it.

What did the guards score yesterday.....what was the average PPG of the 5 guards last year in Power 5/6 competition??

I gave you TWENTY games and the point totals.....I left out a 13 point loss at Sparty, where RU scored 57 points.

Explain to me again, how that is successful, so I can understand it clearly. We play 3 guards, a hybrid forward and a center.

Mulcahy averaged 8.5 PPG....we score about 60 PPG in 80% of the Power 5/6 games against teams not named Minnesota.

Is that the standard you accept?? I don't.

It is the same dilemma in football.....you have fans in alternate universes that are giddy that RU won 6 games....but if you ask them what the plan is and you say "what about the offense", they say RU is going to a bowl game.

The response is "well Michigan State had their coach in a scandal, was up 24-6 in the 3rd quarter....then a punt was blocked, a kickoff muffed for another easy TD and fans act as if we drove 75 yards for 3 straight possessions for TDs....

The same concept applies to hoops.....the backcourt was not sufficient to winning. Winning a couple of games in the mid to low 50s, is not sustainable......if you subscribe to playing basketball games in the low 50s and playing lights out defense, great.....congratulations.....it's no different than saying Schiano should continue to run the ball 65% of the time, because that got RU to 6 wins.....

At what point does reality set in that you have to change and it's not going to happen overnight.

And my point on Mag stands.....he's a distraction....he's shown me NO semblance or anything close to earning this free pass you and others pass out like candy on Halloween......

How about he goes out and actually earns the praises and accolades that he's been labeled with.....his coach, one of the best and most patient in all of CBB, is sitting and waiting for a senior, to step up......do something.....do anything......free passes continue I guess......

I didn’t miss anything. I don’t disagree that Pike needed to improve the team on the offensive end, and much of that was at the guard position.

But I’m not willing to just give up on an entire season in the name of “transition” to a new offense. We all pay a lot of money to watch a winning team, and I’m not willing to write off an entire season just so we can reload with smaller faster guards all in one fell swoop. The changeover needs to happen organically.

Despite what you’ve speculated on in this space over the past six months, Pike did NOT run off Spencer and Mulcahy. THEY left suddenly in May/June. This season would look a whole lot different with a healthy Mulcahy, a veteran sharpshooter Spencer, a veteran Fernandes providing another scoring option, and a young quick sophomore guard in Simpson, with an offensively challenged JMike learning the ropes, and GG playing the three like he is this year.

I know you’ll disagree with this, because you think having Paul and Cam would “take away from Simpson’s development,” but he would’ve been able to develop under the tutelage of experienced guards, and he would’ve played more than last year so that Paul and Can weren’t playing 32-34 mpg. Right now, it looks like he’s floundering a bit, perhaps because he isn’t being mentored by senior guards.

So, agree on the ultimate goal of changing style a bit to improve offense, but disagree on the implementation of same.

 

[biazza38]

The talent isnt there...that is on Pikes recruiting and he didnt anticipate the massive loss of Cam and Paul and the guys he has are 7th men type players...Hyatt Derek Wolf Noah

THIS!! People need to wake up. This team is good enough to win some games, but I’ve seen enough basketball around the league to know we don’t have enough. You have guys who can play like a starter at times, but non consistently

 

[S_Janowski]

It's a lot, because there's a lot here.

Mag is an unnecessary distraction.....if you can't see that, not sure what to tell you.

I add context.....detail......facts.....

It takes time to break things down. But staying in denial is a very harsh reality for you and a bunch of others. It's OK, I'll lead to the information, it's up to you to at some point accept the facts.

I will ask you again a very specific question, since you are stumped.
I am not in the press....dont need to be a moderator..... .

If you watch the press conferences or read the responses from Pike, when have you heard the HC not protect his players, even those that didn't warrant it??

I will add what I did in other posts, while you and others sit and wait and kiss the feet of Mag.....the rest of the roster is going to compete and we get to find out, who earns minutes and who earns playing time this year and beyond.

How do you think we should read into the response "we are waiting for Mawot to say when he's ready to play"......say what??? LMAO

I'll wait.... I have all day.

Hawk - my guy. It’s impossible to have a coherent dialogue with you.

I haven’t mentioned Mag at all in this thread. That’s a whole separate conversation.

The simple point is that we are not a better team this year than previous years. We are not a better team without Cam and Paul - despite you telling us for months how we are a much better team without them.

Maybe if you wrote less than 37 paragraphs in one single post it would be easier to follow the conversation.

Also - LOL at you saying “we were closer to 15-16 wins on paper than 19 wins last year”.

My guy - we had 19 wins last year!

We were a 19 win team despite whatever narrative in your head you’re trying to make up to make your bad takes seem better.

 

[MCKnight2004]

Our guard play is weak. Guards win in college basketball. We do not have shooters, or anyone that creates for others. There’s a reason Simpson and Davis were under recruited, and why Noah was a mid major player. They’re capable, but not consistent.

 

[goru7]

Hawk , your demeaning of MAG is just pathetic. You want to talk about your basketball eyes , well you need glasses. You forget that games have been played and they count. So remember we were 16-7 and 8-3 after the Michigan State game that Mag went down. We had a team with Caleb, Mag , and Cliff on it. The best defensive trio in the league maybe the country. No team was going to score 70 points against us period., and unlikely 65 unless they went 10-10 from three. Those all solved any rebounding problems as well as MAG rebounding and Caleb was a great defensive rebounder taking the weak side rebounding allowing Cliff to block shots and still rebound. So clearly your eyes need fixing. Paul’s last good half of the year was against Michigan State. He played lousy the rest of the year and his injured shoulder had a little to do with it. Cam was still hitting shots , not as many as we all wanted. What was missing ? MAG. So the unexpected bad guard play by Paul , Caleb’s inability to give us more offense , taking good makeable shots and missing MAG is why we faltered down the stretch. But we still should have made the NCAA after beating Michigan in the BIG 10 tourney but for the screw job by the NCAA committee that was universally acknowledged as a mess up.

Now getting back to your eyes , our guard play against Princeton and Illinois was nothing short of terrible. As much as I want Derek to take that big sophomore leap , he has been terrible in the 2 losses this year against Princeton and Illinois. . Noah was really coming on but foul trouble hurt him yesterday and still need him to be the facilitator. JMike and Austin Williams played well yesterday and not sure why Pike did not start them in the second half and bench Noah and Derek and Cliff and let the 5 that made the comeback , Austin , JMike , Gavin , Wolf and Hyatt , start the second half. It might not have made a difference but it was worth a try.
Our guards are small and have been abused by bigger guards. They are not better than last years no matter how many times you try to say it . They have a long way to go and their height is not going to change and Caleb is not there to bail anyone out. Pike has to fix our offense and get rid of our 5 play , where Cliff gets the ball at the top of the key and waits for the guard to come around and hope they can drive and penetrate either to the hole or to hit Aundre or Gavin in the corner for a 3. It doesn’t work when our guards run into quicker bigger guards that can stay with them so they cannot get to the hole . Plus Cliff is 15-18 feet away from the basket that prevents him from offensive rebounding which is something he does well. That has to be eliminated or hardly used. Pick and roll is better but has to done right.
Pike has to set up double screens , staggered screens , down screens , to get Aundre and Gavin more shots and more shots in rhythm and more uncontested. That has to be where the improvement has to happen immediately. Get back to fundamentals like jumping and going to get rebounds and using the damn backboards for layups and I am looking at Cliff, Aundre , and all our guards.

 

[zebnatto]

No, but that doesn’t change Pike’s commitment to and pampering of Cliff. And like I said about recruiting, it’s also important for future recruiting that top players can come here and have full opportunity to showcase their skills, or should I say, the skills they think they have.

Obviously there’s no Xs and Os reason to continue to let Cliff flail and fail with the ball.

We're not disagreeing.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

NJH,

2 things you need to address

1. Raw scoring without adjusting for tempo is silly. Dont give me 60 points scored in a game with 60 possessions aganjst a top D team and say it is a negative
2. Can we at least admit/factor in the fact that Paul was playing with an injury and there was a significant sifference between the 1st half and 2nd half of the year

There was a stretch in the middle of the season where we ranked to low 100s last year in offensive efficiency. That scores to me below average, but when you match it to elite defensively 5th….that is a top 25 team

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Even with this team and Gavin playing 20 MPG and our terrible DREB and our pathetic showing to Illinois. We are somehow 9th in adjusted defnesive efficiency. This is from raw data from 7 games. Removed preseason bias.

We are 12th in opp effective FG%
We are 6th in TO%

We are 295th in offense and that is really bad

 

[RUGiddy777]

My fears were realized. I know I am not alone here. The messiness could be excused for the Princeton game. It appeared we made some strides in a few of the following game. The St Peters game raised major red flags for me despite winning by 31. Today, the program has a hard cold slap in the face. Coming off of 4 successful years (albeit last year failing to make the NCAA tourney) the program has grown a reputation for being legit and a tough out. The fanbase has come to expect Rutgers to compete night and out with a gritty toughness that leans mainly on defense. We have also had expecations of competing for a NCAA bid this year. I will say some offseason departures have thrown quite the monkey wrench into this and its highlighting a bunch of recruiting miscues that to me is going to have an impact on the ceiling for this season. Next year is next year and it happens when it happens. We have Ace and Summerville coming in and fingers crossed for Dylan. I know Pike is going to get a pass for shaky recruiting this year because of what is coming next year. I get that but the plain fact may remain this team as its currently constructed does not look good enough to contend for a NCAA bid in 2024. Now this is just one game but this team as CURRENTLY constructed with this CURRENT lineup and CURRENT philosophy is not going to get it done.

For starters lost in all this is how good Illinois is. This is clearly a team going places. Illinois is likely a top 4 Big 10 team and shoo in NCAA participant. They have incredible physical presence on the court. Their rebounding philosphy is a thing of beauty. Underwood has them brimming with confidence and you can see that with their purpose offensively to attack and attack and then if they miss attack the glass. There is no shame in losing to Illinois. Its not that we lost or even that we lost by 18. Its that we looked like boys against men. To me that is a bucket of ice water to the balls for the 2023-2024 season. How does Rutgers go from being at the Illinois level and beating them 4 of 5 times to basically being wiped off their own home court by them. Pikiell traded in his big guard philsophy for a bunch of midgets who bounce off and getting swatted away like flies by a bunch of studs. Again recruiting recruiting recruiting and Pikiell has recruited a group of nice players but most of them complimentary players not Big 10 starting level. Would any of our current starting lineup except perhaps Cliff start on Illinois? Yet we keep hearing a small segment of our fans lecture on how Cam and Mulcahy were not huge losses. They were but I do not want to lament that. They are gone and Pike has to win with what he has

I keep hearing stuff how we need Mag back. Well I hope Pike went into the year knowing that Mag might not be back until January or even February. IMO, Pike has had plenty of time dating back to last year to make up for the loss of Mag. Mag is not some miracle vaccine for this team which has multiple ailments. Be prepared to play without Mag. Be prepared for the possibility that Mag does not even come back. I am not saying its going to happen but this program needs to develop with or without Mag. I actually am not happy that Mag tried to cash in and got more money from Rutgers coming off an injury. To me that just did not sit well with me given Rutgers was going to do everything to make sure Mag was well taken care of his with his health and education. So for now there is no Mag and more importantly a 100% Mag is likely needed for this team to reach any lofty goals.

As far as whats going on with court play. The continuation of slow starts has hampered Rutgers almost every game this year. Multiple horrid offensive stretches vs St Peters were realized again vs Illinois. To start the game Rutgers could not buy as basket and what an indictment that the first basket until 13:31 mark of the 1st half. By then RU was already down 14-2 and playing catch up right from the get go. A team cannot spot 15-16 point leads to a team as talented as Illinois and expect a positive result. To Rutgers credit they did not give up and showed some major resilience riding a crest from a press that bothered the bejesused out the Illini and a raucous RAC crowd that was carrying this team on its bad even when down double digits. Its amazing the resilience the RAC crowd showed in the first half. RU would raise hopes getting within 3 late in the first half. Yet it was fools gold really. RU down just 41-36 at half. It seemed like a game yet it appeared that RU had no business being that close. That proved true as RU was not able to mount any serious challenge to Illinois in the first few minutes of the 2nd half going back to its same predictable inefficient starting lineup and forcing offensive plays that have proven not to work. Alas the dam would break over a 6 minute period where Illinois just beat Rutgers down like a drum. An 18-2 run where RU had exactly zero field goals made. It was about as noxious a stretch under a Pikiell coached team as you have ever seen at the RAC and magnifed where Illinios currently sits and how much Rutgers has fallen behind.

Lineups and rotations are a hot topic on the board and they should be. 7 games and Pike still is confused. Players are being forced to do things they simply are not capable for. Perhaps a realization sets in that this year in terms of NCAA may not be in the cards. Youth and promise vs the old tired routine of trying to make something square fit in a round hole. The insistence on trying to feed the ball to Cliff every single game is not working. It did not work vs the weaker schools then why would it work against a team like Illinois. Cliff has regressed. There I said it. Yes he can play defense at time and block shots and had 8 tonight but he is just not cutting it as an offensive threat. Cliff with 5 turnovers, catching air and missing surefire alleyoops. Hyatt is our leading shot taker and our offense is running through him yet on most Big 10 teams he is a 7th player at best. 5-22 fg over the past 2 games. Our 3 small guards going 3-17 fg combined with only 4 assists. Physically totally overmatched vs Illinois. I like Woofolk but he is not starter and starting him with Cliff is killing our offense. They cannot be playing together. He had only 2 rebounds in 23 minutes!

No surprise that our biggest guard had the most impact in this game. Bravo Austin Williams who has had sporadic play all year long. Austin had 9 tonight on 3-6 fg, 4 boards, 3 assists and was almost single handedly responsible for getting RU back into the game offensively in the first half. A case could be made Austin needed to play more and that Pike took him out just as he was getting hot and unfortunately didnt start him in the 2nd. Pike's stubborness of having to play the same starters in the 2nd half is mind boggling. Not one person on this team really except for Cliff should be guarantee a starting spot on the roster. That some players like Hyatt are just given minutes needs to change.

And then we come to Gavin. You know I for one and tired of the he does not play bullshit thing especially when I saw a few small guards give up wide open 3s and get blown by for layups. Lets cut this ridiculous notion that he isnt playing because he is defense is terrible. Gavin needs to start. There I said it. He needs to be a more focal point of our offense. This is one of the highest rated recruits Rutgers has ever had yet somehow on a team that cannot put the ball on the bucket he sits during scoring droughts and when he is inserted his role is to hang out on the perimeter. Pike you need to do better with him. Gavin is part of the future. He will not be if he continues to play limited role. I get why a freshman should not shoulder a large rule. Unfortunately because of how Pike has handled recruiting, this is the situation we find ourselves at. The options are limited and I have seen enough to realize what we are seeing on offense this year is not working

And what is the Rutgers offense? Alot of discussion on the boards about identity and purpose. If RU is not converting off of turnovers it does not look they are comfortable at all in the half court set. I see alot of ill advised hoists and one on one stuff with no one under the boards not to mention Rutgers likely leading the lead in missed bunnies. There was talk in the offseason about this team being the fastest ever and capable of scoring 75 plus a game..wait wut. With what players and what shooting capabilities?

Again Illinois is very good. RU got a test today and failed. Not every team will pose the same challenges. These next two games though really are the acid test for the program. ANY hope of reaching the NCAA rests in the next 2. Wake is going to present problems on the road in a different way than Illinois more finesse than physical. Seton Hall a rivarly game that could exploit the perceived softness of Rutgers. Pike is going to have to make changes and make them quickly. Its has to happen. It needs to happen.

Good stuff as always Bac.