Huddling the team - Ash vs Schiano

[Randal7]

Interesting insight this week from an insider on Schiano’s practices vs Ash’s. Apparently, Ash NEVER huddled the team in practice. Schiano does frequently; every 20-30 minutes (5+ times in a practice).

Bizarre on the Ash side; awesome on the Schiano side. That’s how you build family. Proximity is absolutely a part of it.

link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/boardwalk-sports-talk/id1544327445?i=1000537798001

 

[mildone]

I would've thought Ash would model his practices on what he experienced at OSU under Meyer. Did the podcast address how OSU does it? If Ash was following the OSU model, then I think we can probably discount the structural differences to how GS does it and assume the key differentiators lie elsewhere (the relative quality of the overall coaching staff would be my first guess, followed by the head coach's leadership skills on and off the field).

 

[Randal7]

I would've thought Ash would model his practices on what he experienced at OSU under Meyer. Did the podcast address how OSU does it? If Ash was following the OSU model, then I think we can probably discount the structural differences to how GS does it and assume the key differentiators lie elsewhere (the relative quality of the overall coaching staff would be my first guess, followed by the head coach's leadership skills on and off the field).

Nah there was no insight into OSUs approach. To never huddle the team is odd though, no?

 

[mdk01]

I would've thought Ash would model his practices on what he experienced at OSU under Meyer. Did the podcast address how OSU does it? If Ash was following the OSU model, then I think we can probably discount the structural differences to how GS does it and assume the key differentiators lie elsewhere (the relative quality of the overall coaching staff would be my first guess, followed by the head coach's leadership skills on and off the field).

Ash was assuming the head coach would do it. Oh, wait......

 

[mildone]

Nah there was no insight into OSUs approach. To never huddle the team is odd though, no?

I have zero football coaching experience and no idea what is and isn’t common practice. So I have no basis upon which to judge.

We can all easily say that, in the aggregate, GS is a better head coach than Ash. But it gets much harder to know exactly why, knowledgeably. I’ve heard all kinds of theories, including commentary on his personality. But I think the reality is more nuanced than that and there are lots of contributing factors.

I think the act of huddling the team is probably less important than what is said in the huddles. And for all I know, huddling the team on field that way is inefficient and the same benefits can be achieved in team gatherings off the field. Not saying that’s the case. Just saying I don’t have nearly the experience doing it to be able to know.

 

[mildone]

Ash was assuming the head coach would do it. Oh, wait......

Ha. Maybe that was it. He couldn't stop thinking like a co-coordinator and start thinking like an head coach.

Ash had a lot stacked up against him. Low assistant budget. First time head coaching in a program that was always difficult to recruit to. A lack of innate understanding of the region. A lack of understanding of the politics of the job. All that is bound to magnify and shortcomings in Ash's head coaching ability.

By all accounts, he was a very good x's and o's and technique coach on defense. And he's doing that (at least the technique thing) in the NFL now. So perhaps that's where he belongs.

 

[yesrutgers01]

I have zero football coaching experience and no idea what is and isn’t common practice. So I have no basis upon which to judge.

We can all easily say that, in the aggregate, GS is a better head coach than Ash. But it gets much harder to know exactly why, knowledgeably. I’ve heard all kinds of theories, including commentary on his personality. But I think the reality is more nuanced than that and there are lots of contributing factors.

I think the act of huddling the team is probably less important than what is said in the huddles. And for all I know, huddling the team on field that way is inefficient and the same benefits can be achieved in team gatherings off the field. Not saying that’s the case. Just saying I don’t have nearly the experience doing it to be able to know.

I would say first that GS1 vs GS2 is vastly different. But both versions is better than Ash. I just don't think Ash did a single thing that made a player or coach want to do anything extra for him. He came in and took all air out of the Jersey ballon but never bothered to put it back in.
Going back to when we were going through the recruiting process. Kevin was down to USF/GaTech/Rutgers - what really made the difference to him was that those other schools took his personal identity away from him. Rutgers Lockerroom and players/coaches- just felt like home and his home was NJ. Said those other places were just different and he didn't like it.
I feel that Ash made the Rutgers lockerroom feel anything but Jersey

 

[mildone]

I would say first that GS1 vs GS2 is vastly different. But both versions is better than Ash. I just don't think Ash did a single thing that made a player or coach want to do anything extra for him. He came in and took all air out of the Jersey ballon but never bothered to put it back in.
Going back to when we were going through the recruiting process. Kevin was down to USF/GaTech/Rutgers - what really made the difference to him was that those other schools took his personal identity away from him. Rutgers Lockerroom and players/coaches- just felt like home and his home was NJ. Said those other places were just different and he didn't like it.
I feel that Ash made the Rutgers lockerroom feel anything but Jersey

I does seem like Ash just couldn't quite ever understand and adapt to the rhythms of NJ or even the north-east in general. In my experience, some people adapt quickly to regional differences and some don't.

I also think Ash made some poor choices early on due to his lack of understanding of NJ culture and in a job as tough of the RU head-coaching job, he had no margin to recover from and survive those early errors.

Unlike many here, I don't feel compelled to bash him or heap hate on him though. I think he did his best but it's a tough job and he just wasn't able to make it work.

 

[yesrutgers01]

I does seem like Ash just couldn't quite ever understand and adapt to the rhythms of NJ or even the north-east in general. In my experience, some people adapt quickly to regional differences and some don't.

I also think Ash made some poor choices early on due to his lack of understanding of NJ culture and in a job as tough of the RU head-coaching job, he had no margin to recover from and survive those early errors.

Unlike many here, I don't feel compelled to bash him or heap hate on him though. I think he did his best but it's a tough job and he just wasn't able to make it work.

Typically I wouldn't care and it is time to move past but if he is brought up, he made it very personal against NJ.

 

[Randal7]

I does seem like Ash just couldn't quite ever understand and adapt to the rhythms of NJ or even the north-east in general. In my experience, some people adapt quickly to regional differences and some don't.

I also think Ash made some poor choices early on due to his lack of understanding of NJ culture and in a job as tough of the RU head-coaching job, he had no margin to recover from and survive those early errors.

Unlike many here, I don't feel compelled to bash him or heap hate on him though. I think he did his best but it's a tough job and he just wasn't able to make it work.

I'm providing just one hypothesis for why Schiano seems to be successful here, while Ash was not. I'm not bashing Ash, so much as I am factually stating a difference in the approach.

If I told you, when Ash was hired, that he would never huddle the team in practice, would you have just *shrugged* and said, "well, how important is that, really, anyway?"

I've been on a lot of teams. Sports teams, work teams/groups, fraternity, church, family. Huddling is a huge part of "the process".

 

[mildone]

I'm providing just one hypothesis for why Schiano seems to be successful here, while Ash was not. I'm not bashing Ash, so much as I am factually stating a difference in the approach.

If I told you, when Ash was hired, that he would never huddle the team in practice, would you have just *shrugged* and said, "well, how important is that, really, anyway?"

I've been on a lot of teams. Sports teams, work teams/groups, fraternity, church, family. Huddling is a huge part of "the process".

I hear what you're saying and I very much agree that game-time huddles are important.

But I'm less convinced that they're all that important in practices. It depends on the situation. Again, not saying you're wrong. But also not agreeing that you're entirely right about the critical importance of on-field practice-time huddles.

If the team "huddling" is taking place off the field, in meeting rooms or whatever, then I'm not sure it really matters that it doesn't happen a lot on the practice field. You only get so much time to practice on a field, so the priority needs to be whatever can only be done on a field versus stuff that can be done equally well off the field.

I also don't think that there are any hard and fast rules about the value of huddles in practices. It'll vary. Experienced and self-motivated teams probably don't benefit much from them, for instance. Less experienced or less self-motivated teams probably benefit more from them, right? It's common sense.

And I've also been on a lot of teams, and coached and/or led a lot of teams.

 

[Knight Shift]

Interesting insight this week from an insider on Schiano’s practices vs Ash’s. Apparently, Ash NEVER huddled the team in practice. Schiano does frequently; every 20-30 minutes (5+ times in a practice).

Bizarre on the Ash side; awesome on the Schiano side. That’s how you build family. Proximity is absolutely a part of it.

link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/boardwalk-sports-talk/id1544327445?i=1000537798001

NEVER? Or NEVER EVER?
Is this f-bomb Vinny again? Pretty thin. No, not defending Ash. Glad he is gone, and happier that Schiano is here.

Zapruder sent these. Maybe they are not huddles in the truest sense of a huddle?

 

[mildone]

NEVER? Or NEVER EVER?
Is this f-bomb Vinny again? Pretty thin. No, not defending Ash. Glad he is gone, and happier that Schiano is here.

Zapruder sent these. Maybe they are not huddles in the truest sense of a huddle?

I often find that reports of such things are exaggerated. Seems that may be the case here.

I mean, if Ash was so bad personality-wise, then perhaps it's a good thing he didn't have too many huddles. He was doing the team a favor. LOL

 

[Scarlet16E]

Not team huddle-related, but to me the defining example of how Ash never understood how to work within the local NJ culture is the use of "The Hunt" mantra. Yes, it's just a motivational thing and is not important in the larger scheme of things, but it is telling of a tone-deafness that, at least in hindsight, showed that he would fail at Rutgers.

My guess is that some staffer came up with it, along with "Fence The Garden", etc. I can understand why someone with no local ties would think it could be a good mantra. But the fact is that there was already something else referred to by that name in the local vernacular (the Far Hills Races). Someone must have told him that "The Hunt" already WAS something here. But he did not care. He decided that he would use it anyway. It made him look clueless, and it foretold many other decisions he would make.

 

[mildone]

Not team huddle-related, but to me the defining example of how Ash never understood how to work within the local NJ culture is the use of "The Hunt" mantra. Yes, it's just a motivational thing and is not important in the larger scheme of things, but it is telling of a tone-deafness that, at least in hindsight, showed that he would fail at Rutgers.

My guess is that some staffer came up with it, along with "Fence The Garden", etc. I can understand why someone with no local ties would think it could be a good mantra. But the fact is that there was already something else referred to by that name in the local vernacular (the Far Hills Races). Someone must have told him that "The Hunt" already WAS something here. But he did not care. He decided that he would use it anyway. It made him look clueless, and it foretold many other decisions he would make.

I didn't find "The Hunt" to be so awful. Chop means focus on the next play and win it, do that often enough and you win - which is okay. The hunt is a lot more vague, so a lot less useful, but not particularly offensive or anything.

I generally find all that sort of stuff, "chop", "the hunt", whatever, to be inefficient silliness. I'd probably instead go with something like "Focus On The Moment" because at least it's directly relevant to the game at hand and doesn't require anybody to form an abstraction to understand it's full meaning.

 

[Plum Street]

I does seem like Ash just couldn't quite ever understand and adapt to the rhythms of NJ or even the north-east in general. In my experience, some people adapt quickly to regional differences and some don't.

I also think Ash made some poor choices early on due to his lack of understanding of NJ culture and in a job as tough of the RU head-coaching job, he had no margin to recover from and survive those early errors.

Unlike many here, I don't feel compelled to bash him or heap hate on him though. I think he did his best but it's a tough job and he just wasn't able to make it work.

He didn’t do his best . By all accounts from
Hs coaches ash was lazy.

 

[mildone]

He didn’t do his best . By all accounts from
Hs coaches ash was lazy.

I bet if you think about it some, you can come up with reasons why HS coaches would be unhappy with Ash.

But even putting that aside, all HS coaches know is how their interactions with Ash went. What they cannot know is what Ash was doing instead of talking with them. So what HS coaches say isn't evidence of laziness, although it might be evidence of poor judgement on how he spent his time.

 

[Scarlet16E]

I'm not saying it was an awful motivational phrase in a vacuum. Just that it was co-opting a term already used locally. It was tone deaf.

Kind of like if Indiana began calling their stadium "The Brickyard", or if Louisville started calling their season "The Run for the Roses".

 

[Randal7]

NEVER? Or NEVER EVER?
Is this f-bomb Vinny again? Pretty thin. No, not defending Ash. Glad he is gone, and happier that Schiano is here.

Zapruder sent these. Maybe they are not huddles in the truest sense of a huddle?

That's more of a "take a knee" formation. But hey, I'll give it to him, thats better than nothing.

And no, this isn't Vinny. Vinny is unemployable (as per the listeners) so we sent him back to the NJ state offices to collect his check. We had another student manager on...My brother Jared. Alot less swearing

 

[Randal7]

I hear what you're saying and I very much agree that game-time huddles are important.

But I'm less convinced that they're all that important in practices. It depends on the situation. Again, not saying you're wrong. But also not agreeing that you're entirely right about the critical importance of on-field practice-time huddles.

If the team "huddling" is taking place off the field, in meeting rooms or whatever, then I'm not sure it really matters that it doesn't happen a lot on the practice field. You only get so much time to practice on a field, so the priority needs to be whatever can only be done on a field versus stuff that can be done equally well off the field.

I also don't think that there are any hard and fast rules about the value of huddles in practices. It'll vary. Experienced and self-motivated teams probably don't benefit much from them, for instance. Less experienced or less self-motivated teams probably benefit more from them, right? It's common sense.

And I've also been on a lot of teams, and coached and/or led a lot of teams.

All good points! Yes.

 

[RUPete]

NEVER? Or NEVER EVER?
Is this f-bomb Vinny again? Pretty thin. No, not defending Ash. Glad he is gone, and happier that Schiano is here.

Zapruder sent these. Maybe they are not huddles in the truest sense of a huddle?

These photos look suspiciously like practice huddles. Are you sure someone didn't photoshop Ash in there?

 

[RUPete]

That's more of a "take a knee" formation. But hey, I'll give it to him, thats better than nothing.

And no, this isn't Vinny. Vinny is unemployable (as per the listeners) so we sent him back to the NJ state offices to collect his check. We had another student manager on...My brother Jared. Alot less swearing

Not even Barstool wants Vinny?

 

[yesrutgers01]

NEVER? Or NEVER EVER?
Is this f-bomb Vinny again? Pretty thin. No, not defending Ash. Glad he is gone, and happier that Schiano is here.

Zapruder sent these. Maybe they are not huddles in the truest sense of a huddle?

Worst words in the dictionary are Never and Always...And for some reason, my wife uses both...lol

 

[Knight Shift]

Worst words in the dictionary are Never and Always...And for some reason, my wife uses both...lol

Those pictures could have been practices 1 or 2 of Ash's tenure, and by player vote at practice #3, they decided to run "no huddle" practices thereafter. 😂 The guy did not inspire.

 

[gef21]

Interesting insight this week from an insider on Schiano’s practices vs Ash’s. Apparently, Ash NEVER huddled the team in practice. Schiano does frequently; every 20-30 minutes (5+ times in a practice).

Bizarre on the Ash side; awesome on the Schiano side. That’s how you build family. Proximity is absolutely a part of it.

link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/boardwalk-sports-talk/id1544327445?i=1000537798001

Interesting. In every sport I have ever coached, we huddle multiple times a practice to discuss positives and negatives. A major part of the culture building process is self correction.

 

[mildone]

Worst words in the dictionary are Never and Always...And for some reason, my wife uses both...lol

I never use "always". I always avoid "never".

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Many of you were probably there.. but once in GS first run here I saw a scrimmage where GS stopped it for an injured player... NOT the regular injury stoppage.. but to TEACH the player to NOT drag himself off the field. To drop to the ground and make the officials call the injury timeout. He did this loudly enough that the whole team heard. I suspect this is the root of the huddles... some teaching moment revealed by one player or one unit or one coach in practice that has a generally relevant point for the whole team. Yes.. that is good coaching in my book.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Those pictures could have been practices 1 or 2 of Ash's tenure, and by player vote at practice #3, they decided to run "no huddle" practices thereafter. 😂 The guy did not inspire.

OMG- makes me think of business...so many wasted hours of sales teams huddles.

 

[Knight Shift]

OMG- makes me think of business...so many wasted hours of sales teams huddles.

As @gef21 noted, in sports, huddles are key in building culture. In offices, maybe, it depends on who the boss is. Chris Ash was the Bill Lumbergh of football coaches. The looks on the employees faces above may be the same looks RU football players had on their faces during huddles with the coach.

 

[rubaseball78]

I didn't find "The Hunt" to be so awful. Chop means focus on the next play and win it, do that often enough and you win - which is okay. The hunt is a lot more vague, so a lot less useful, but not particularly offensive or anything.

I generally find all that sort of stuff, "chop", "the hunt", whatever, to be inefficient silliness. I'd probably instead go with something like "Focus On The Moment" because at least it's directly relevant to the game at hand and doesn't require anybody to form an abstraction to understand it's full meaning.

During Schiano 1.0, the chop never really did anything for me and I thought a player chopping a stump before a game was pretty hokie. However, I think it is important part of Schiano 2.0 is making it clear with instilling a culture. I'm more in tune with it during Schiano 2.0 than I was during 1.0.

I thought the Hunt was terrible. As said above, we already have the Hunt and it came across as a ripoff of Schiano's chop.

 

[beaced]

I would say first that GS1 vs GS2 is vastly different. But both versions is better than Ash. I just don't think Ash did a single thing that made a player or coach want to do anything extra for him. He came in and took all air out of the Jersey ballon but never bothered to put it back in.
Going back to when we were going through the recruiting process. Kevin was down to USF/GaTech/Rutgers - what really made the difference to him was that those other schools took his personal identity away from him. Rutgers Lockerroom and players/coaches- just felt like home and his home was NJ. Said those other places were just different and he didn't like it.
I feel that Ash made the Rutgers lockerroom feel anything but Jersey

Did your kid ever get to start at RU?

 

[mildone]

Interesting. In every sport I have ever coached, we huddle multiple times a practice to discuss positives and negatives. A major part of the culture building process is self correction.

Me too. But I’ve also never coached in a situation where I had the luxury of lots of off-field time with the players, with the benefit of a video recording we could refer back to, to work on certsin things.

I’d still halt practice as necessary to make coaching points, or for other team building or character building stuff. But probably not as much since using film to make some points is probably more efficient than relying on the perspective of the players at that moment in time. Kind of depends on the exact situation if I’d chose to disrupt practice or not.

Pretty sure Ash’s position coaches were bringing their position groups in all the time to make technical coaching points.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Did your kid ever get to start at RU?

Me love me some beaced lol

 

[bethlehemfan]

During Schiano 1.0, the chop never really did anything for me and I thought a player chopping a stump before a game was pretty hokie. However, I think it is important part of Schiano 2.0 is making it clear with instilling a culture. I'm more in tune with it during Schiano 2.0 than I was during 1.0.

I thought the Hunt was terrible. As said above, we already have the Hunt and it came across as a ripoff of Schiano's chop.

The hunt was truly pathetic.

 

[beaced]

Me love me some beaced lol

Right back atchoo

 

[mildone]

Right back atchoo

Gesundheit.

 

[RC80]

could not figure out with Rich Rod went to Jacksonville St. Appreciate the reasoning; this is funny - who sucks worse Ash or Shea; why don't we ask GS - he has had to clean up the mess from both.

 

[RU848789]

I'm thinking this whole thread is erroneously based on a simple typo, as I think the OP meant to have a thread about the importance of the team "cuddling" not "huddling." We all know how important cuddling is. Huddling, not so much.

 

[NickRU714]

Reading this thread.
You are all vastly overrating the whole "copying The Hunt means you don't know NJ culture".

I've lived in NJ for 37 years.
Grew up in Union/Essex County.
The only place I've heard of "The Hunt" (Far Hills Race) is literally on this board and people complaining about it.
I couldn't name a single person who has ever gone.

I would imagine most of NJ have no clue that "The Hunt" is a horse race.

 

[RedTeam1994]

….Unlike many here, I don't feel compelled to bash him or heap hate on him though. I think he did his best but it's a tough job and he just wasn't able to make it work.

Ash deserves all the contempt he gets and more

your comment would be fine if he was simply incompetent. For example we’ve had a number of basketball coaches over the last few decades that weren’t up to the task…I don’t wish them ill. You’re right - tough job.

but Ash was different. Ash was not just incompetent. from NUMEROUS accounts he was insanely arrogant and utterly DISMISSIVE of Rutgers and NJ

for THOSE reasons (not just his incompetence) he fully deserves our scorn.