This is exactly what he need. Can we afford him?
Ithiel Horton in the portal
- Thread starter jerzeyguy
- Start date
Killer shot release. Played at Delaware, then Pitt, then UCF.
6'3" guard - looking for his 4th college, shot 38% from the field overall, as many turnovers as assists, DRtg = 100!
This. Talk about bad fits. He’s not a good defender. Hasn’t stuck with any team - not a team player. He’s 6-5 (on paper) but that’s about it. Averaged 30+ min and is going to expect that at least. Hard pass here in my opinion. I understand the concerns about adding a small player like JT.
Regardless - at this point I’d add any plus defender (regardless of height) who would only be coming in off a 21 mpg prior season over this kid. Unless we’re adding an absolute stud, we can’t take a low percentage shooting starter who doesn’t defend well.
Another thing to keep in mind - Mag is the “press master”. His return likely means we return to deploying that style for 10-15 minutes a game. Height matters less in the full court pressure scheme. Maybe those 10 minutes or so are when Noah gets his rest if we can pick up a defensive pest to compliment Derek. Gavin has the length to compliment Mag with Cliff protecting the rim down low.
I guess what I’m saying is height shouldn’t be the end all. At this late juncture, top priority should be getting a plus (or at least reliable defender). Anyone questionable on that end has to be a pass. We have too many holes to fill on that end. We’re not getting a shooter like Cam at this point. Getting someone who makes a slightly better percentage of shots but defends worse isn’t going to be that helpful.
I guess what I’m saying is height shouldn’t be the end all. At this late juncture, top priority should be getting a plus (or at least reliable defender). Anyone questionable on that end has to be a pass. We have too many holes to fill on that end. We’re not getting a shooter like Cam at this point. Getting someone who makes a slightly better percentage of shots but defends worse isn’t going to be that helpful.
I think you have to look at height - not height uber alles - but you have to figure Noah is getting 30ish minutes, Simpson 20 (maybe more if he improves as most expect). How many minutes do you play them together, if you have a third small guard, how many minutes do you want to go with two small guards?
To what I think you're getting at though - we're at the beggars can't be choosers point - or a least pretty close - if a guy fits culturally, we can't pass him up because he's 2 inches shorter than some fictional character we hope to get, but who isn't really out there.
Right - to the last part. So many of our fans think we need to prioritize adding a shooter. When you have youth (and a mid-major step up defender) leading your backcourt with no veteran perimeter defense depth, I disagree.
I’m sure these same fans would jump at the chance to pick up a Sean McNeil type of kid - right? All I can say is look what happened to Ohio State’s defense when they went that route with an otherwise frosh backcourt. Sharp shooters who aren’t known for their defense belong on teams where everyone else is a plus defender (McNeil was a better fit on WVU where he was the weakest link not the anchor defender in the backcourt leading a bunch of frosh).
Green - where are you my man on this discussion? Looking for a defense advocate to weigh in….
We need perimeter defense on the wing, and we need more shooters. Both can be true, but that doesn't mean we're going to get a guy who checks all boxes.
A big thing we're losing from our defense this year is length. We've been spoiled with length for years and it's suddenly in short supply. That will require some different approaches defensively as passing lanes get a little wider.
A big thing we're losing from our defense this year is length. We've been spoiled with length for years and it's suddenly in short supply. That will require some different approaches defensively as passing lanes get a little wider.
Rutgers had a mediocre season with plenty of experienced players but not enough consistent scoring .This upcoming season has lots of question marks on offense, defense and bench contributions.A additional 3 point shooter is needed to replace Spencer scoring and to assist Giffiths.Replacing the 3 players that transferred because of lack of playing time with similar talent level players isn't the answer to a better team this season.
One guy not pressing ruins the soup. A Pike team can't carry guys without some defensive intensitity unless they add so much 3pt shooting that we redesign the team. He'd be good somewhere but not here.
I would be careful here, have to be real smart who we pick in terms of team fit, chemistry. Pike would need to weigh if kid who plays 30+ min, takes plenty of shots, three point% good, 2pt % not so good vs how it impacts team, others guys minutes and does he pout if he doesn’t get enough shots/minute. Also, how big a factor is NIL? We need the right kid so hopefully Pike and staff make the best assessment to fill an important spot.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but I find it very unlikely Steve will get involved based on this dust up with Pittsburgh PD:
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/pitt-guard-ithiel-horton-pleads-lesser-charges/
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/pitt-guard-ithiel-horton-pleads-lesser-charges/
Pike is a defense first coach. His best offense by far was in the Covid year. It was Kenpom 72 (just to go with the metrics). That team was loaded with scorers. I think we can be better than the 150 we were last year but if you think we have a top 50 offense on our hands your dreaming. It doesn’t matter who else we add.
Right now Im worried about the defense and with all the press on Huggins I can’t help but think of the year Huggs had when press VA fell apart. He had plenty of offensive talent on that team by the way… They went 14-20.
If our halfcourt bread and butter D fails on Pike, and he doesn’t have the right cast of guys to surround Mag with on the press I’m worried it could be a long season even if we have talented scorers.
Agree that he's a defense first coach, and he's prioritized getting length/size on the perimeter. Since 2017-18, we have had only one season where a player under 6-4 has averaged more than 21.3 minutes, which was Young's final year.
Going into next season, we currently have 3 (Fernandes/Simpson/Davis) and still need another body (or two) at guard.
Total minutes by scholarship players under 6-4 by season
2022-23: Simpson (684), Miller (140)
2021-22: Miller (184)
2020-21: Young (844)
2019-20: Young (638)
2018-19: n/a
2017-18: Sanders (1127), Williams (583), Mensah (180)
2016-17: Sanders (1003), Williams (865), Johnson (838)
Some notes
- The last time we had 3 scholarship guys under 6-4 was 2017-18
- The last time we had even 2 guys under 6-4 on the court together for any real time was also 2017-18
- In 2017-18, we were forced to play Mensah because of a lack of depth and an injury to Williams
The current roster is a departure from Pikiell's normal approach - and his defensive concepts will need to be adjusted due to less length on the perimeter. I'd agree, though, that it'd be more important to grab a 6-6 decent defender with poor shooting than another 6-2 guy with suspect defense and good shooting.
Ideally some minor conference grad transfer will enter the portal with 6-6 size, passable defense and .300+ shooting that's looking for a chance to prove himself, and we can snatch him up for depth.
An average mid-major defender isn’t going to be good enough. I think people really undervalue how much help Caleb provided to Paul and Cam on the perimeter. He’s not there to help Noah and Gavin. Adding someone else whose going to be on par with those two could be a big problem for us.
Quick release. The possibility of having three 40% 3-shooters with great releases on the floor at the same time has to be intriguing. Golden State Warriors style offense anyone?
No not correct. A Peter Kiss type is not going to be helpful. Shooting is a crapshoot when you step up. Defense carries. When in doubt take the body that you know can play defense at the next level.
You can teach defense much easier than shooting. Paul, Cam - those guys were not high-level individual defenders. But they were part of one of the best team defenses in the country.
It’s a very different situation when you are playing Caleb and a healthy Mag in your 5 combination most of the game. You pick up the slack on defense. Also - defense is taught over the progression of more than one year. Caleb was not a plus defender as a frosh. Jaden Jones was an excellent high school shooter. As Green pointed out, so was Mike Williams. We’re not getting an all star caliber low major like Cam at this point. Picking up a 6-5/6-6 JUCO or low major who put up efficient 5-6 points on lower volume likely adds nothing. Most low majors play at that level because they can’t defend at the next level.
I hope they get two 6'5"-6'6" low major guys, efficient/low-volume offensively who can or at least have the will to try to play decent defense at the 2/3. Get two - hopefully one a little better outside shooter, one a little more athletic. How much more can we realistically hope for at this point?
The transition from low to mid to high major is due to overall talent level, including athleticism. Both offensively and defensively. To say the only reason they are low major is because of defense is not correct.
Where I’m coming from in short - I’d take 6-2 Miller back in a second to fill one of those 2 slots. I understand I’m in the minority but I guess we can reflect on that after his next season. Outside of his height - let’s see what his so called inferior offensive stats look like when it’s an apples to apples comp vs. the mid-major kid most our fans would prefer since Miller’s replacement will have scored 5-7 or so ppg last season for a bad mid-major.
And oh yeah - I make no claim to Miller being an amazing defender. He’s servicable though and likely materially better than what we’re going to bring in on that end and not as much worse on the other end as our fans think. Unfortunately.
I guess it depends on what we get.
I think Miller/Simpson/Noah on the court at the same time would be a disaster defensively/rebounding and barring major improvement from Simpson (which is within the realistic/expected amount or improvement), offensively too.
When you start looking at lineups when Griffiths is out with what we have right now, it gets ugly, and that's putting a lot of pressure on a Freshman - who I think can handle it but there is no plan B at the moment and he's not playing 40 minutes/game.
Whoever we bring in is likely going to be a utility player. For 5-10 minute stretches - full court press is always an option if we need to go with a smaller backcourt. Miller was fine in that role early for a few minutes here and there.
I’m more worried about line ups without Simpson… Noah, GG and “who” defending on the perimeter is the question.
Lineups without Simpson get ugly as well - lots of pressure on him too - assuming big improvements by him.
If you break the roster down by primary positions to look at lineups - he's the only 2 and Gavin is the only 3
With three 5's and three 4's and two 1's
And 3 guys coming off injuries - YIKES!
The scary part is that even if Simpson doesn’t improve, we still have glaring holes with him on the bench. Gavin may be a stud, but it’s really unlikely he’s going to be a plus defender as a frosh. Noah wasn’t known to be a good defender in the A-10. We’re in trouble if Hyatt is replacing Simpson on D on the perimeter with those 2.
Heck - even if we wanted to go that route, then you’d also have to worry about ball handling on the other end because you’ve got Hyatt, Cliff, Mag - is GG ready off the bat to be Noah’s only source of help?
Of course - if Davis comes in ready a lot of these concerns are addressed. But we are paper thin regardless and desperate for a 3 star frosh to stick immediately. Not a great situation. As I said - I’d actually feel somewhat better if Miller was on the bench as an option to come in and spell Simpson for 5 mins or so. I don’t think it’s a given that we’re getting someone who would serve that purpose better.
I wish we had both, but Paul leaving us creates a very big hole. For all his shortcomings it’s easier not to be that deep when you have versatile guys like Paul and Caleb who can slide 1-4. Now we’re not only not deep but we lack that versatility across the board. Our forwards / BIGs can’t handle the ball. And our guards (outside of maybe GG) don’t rebound.
What if the reasons they left are things that if they’d stayed would have made them so unhappy they would have hurt the team more than they helped?
They were both good players I enjoyed watching play but good riddance to both of them.
No doubt. Losing an all-in version of Paul is a big hit to this team though despite his limitations. While it would’ve been nice to have another sharp shooter in Cam, he’s less of a comprehensive loss because he really couldn’t play anywhere well except the 2. Paul could spell a lot of guys. We went from having 2 guys like that to -0-.
So true.
BTW, all one needed to do was look at Paul's face and his body language at the post-game press conference after what turned out to be his last game in a Rutgers uniform and you could tell that he was done here.
Well it depends what you mean.
Cam was going to be a starter averaging 25+ minutes and 14+ points in an offense that would have allowed him more open looks than last year. Not much to be unhappy about from an on court prospective.
Paul, on the other hand, was going to be a backup and a potentially very valuable 1st-2nd guy off the bench. Would that have made him unhappy and ultimately hurt the team? Very possible.
Cam might not have been happy slipping down a spot or even two on the priority list offensively
