Lots of points being scored by all four teams tonight

[Barnaby&Neill]

Yes they are Defensive minded but have enough talent to score when needed. You need both to be where they are.

Agreed, but a good defense solves a lot of problems. Georgia held Tennessee—the nation’s best offense—to 13 points this season. I think we’re so traumatized by just the total ineptitude of our offense that we forget that a good defense and effective offense can still be a very powerful combo. We’re craving points like addicts in withdrawal

 

[Yeah Baby]

They scored 51 not 14 and they wouldn’t even have been in that spot without their 13th ranked total offense and 3rd ranked scoring offense.

Their D is good enough and the team is physical enough and that allowed them to go toe to toe with a Michigan.

They would not have won if they allowed Michigan to run the ball and eat up the clock. That first stop and the pick 6 set the tone. Their Offense was the better unit but without a solid run D this is a totally different game.

 

[Yeah Baby]

Agreed, but a good defense solves a lot of problems. Georgia held Tennessee—the nation’s best offense—to 13 points this season. I think we’re so traumatized by just the total ineptitude of our offense that we forget that a good defense and effective offense can still be a very powerful combo. We’re craving points like addicts in withdrawal

Totally agree.

 

[Caliknight]

Wow-
You watch these games (not just the final four) and marvel at the concepts, philosophies and talent on the field compared to us.

I marvel at how easily they scheme people open. It takes using the entire field including throwing over the middle. Schiano is loath to do this because of the potential for a turnover. He’d rather run 3 x and punt.

I also marvel at how fun these teams are to watch. This is entertainment after all. If Schiano is going to lose, at least make it interesting.

I’ll watch us play, but man is it boring as shit.

 

[Caliknight]

Didn’t tcu get two pick sixes and two goal line stops. That’s 28 points that I think was their defense. You need both offense and defense to win a natty. (Obviously).

They would have very likely scored points had those picks led to possessions.

 

[Caliknight]

Here's an excerpt from an Athletic article. I've said this before pretty much against the grain of quite a few here. I see opportunity as good as its ever been for those down the status totem pole despite everyone worrying about portal and NIL. It's not perfect parity but the opportunity is greater than it has been in the past.

From the article:

“In today’s college football world, it is a lot different assembling a team than it used to be,” Dykes said. “You used to rely on signing the recruiting class, you redshirted the class if your program is good enough to do that, so all the programs that were good historically had an advantage because they didn’t have to play freshmen. Those teams went to bowl games, got those 15 extra practices and got a chance to work those young players. There was only one way to acquire players, and that was through traditional high school recruiting.

“Well, in today’s world, it’s, it’s a lot different, you know, you can acquire players and a lot of different ways. People don’t really redshirt as much anymore. Because if you do redshirt somebody, chances are, they’re not going to be there for very long. … So what happens is, that opens the door for maybe non-traditional programs to be able to acquire players in a different way, which is kind of what we did.”

TCU took 13 transfers in the offseason. The defensive line was going to be a major issue, but Dykes and his staff were able to address that in the portal. And on a stage like this, against a team like Michigan with a nasty offensive line, those guys showed up.

“Had we not been able to add those 13 transfers, you know, we would have been in trouble defensively,” Dykes said. “So our roster is probably constructed a little bit differently than Michigan’s is, but I do think that you’re going to start to see more teams like TCU, you know, to get on stages like this.”

Exactly the model Schiano should have been using.

He’s using an analog phone in a digital world.

 

[Yeah Baby]

It's changing and that worries me if we don't keep up. The SEC has leaned towards more offense and I see the B10 doing the same slightly now with expansion. USC is that with Riley. UCLA has their moments with Kelly. Physical tough midwest and as B10 as it gets Luke Fickell decided that Leach influenced Phil Longo is what is needed to take the next step at Wisconsin. Walters seems to want to keep the offense going with Harrell as his OC. I see more leaning in that direction.

IMO, our first hurdle is to get an offense that can compete with these teams. The way TCU is built this year, IMO is the mold that has the best potential to compete in the B10 for a lower status team. The offense if very productive, the defense is mediocre but the team as a whole has enough of an element of physicality. Not the most physical you'll see out there but good enough. IMO, a team built like that can compete and be respectable in the B10 and occasionally have a magical season.

We need both. MD and Purdue have great QB’s and good Offenses but we were able to beat them both 2 years ago when their young QB’s we’re making mistakes and we had a good Defense full of veterans and portal transfers. Vedral getting hurt this year completely derailed what we wanted to do. Our young QB’s made too many mistakes and when you are in that situation and your Defense is playing well enough to win then you lean that way. We needed less mistakes to beat Iowa and Nebraska this year. We needed way more Offense to win our other 6 games. Way more.

 

[rutgersguy1]

Agreed, but a good defense solves a lot of problems. Georgia held Tennessee—the nation’s best offense—to 13 points this season. I think we’re so traumatized by just the total ineptitude of our offense that we forget that a good defense and effective offense can still be a very powerful combo. We’re craving points like addicts in withdrawal

Sure that's true about UGA/Tenn but how many teams have the talent up and down the roster of UGA, especially on defense? Very few, probably won't even take 1 hand. Alabama couldn't even stop them with their talent. I don't know what the hell happened in the South Carolina game both with Tenn's offense and USCe.

BTW, it's not as if UGA is playing exclusively slugfest football, Monken is pretty creative in the things he does. Their offense is ranked in the top 10 in both scoring and total.

UGA isn't the blueprint you follow when you're RU. We're not going to get their talent. There's a reason I often bring up WFs, Dukes, TCUs, Oregon States, Baylors, etc...those are comparable programs of what can be done from our level as far as more with less for flashes or longer. UGA is a team doing more with more and that will never be us.

Even these top defensive teams if you're going to beat them, it's likely with offense, not some slugfest. Playing in the mud is exactly what they want and what you shouldn't do because it's hard to compete that way with a talent imbalance. UGA were in dog fights with OSU and OU in the playoffs. Michigan with TCU. MSU with Baylor. It doesn't mean you'll win if it's a shootout but it's the best potential avenue to win. Could you win a slugfest with these kind of teams? Sure anything is possible but the point is which avenue has the most potential for success. In our case, which avenue has the most potential to be competitive, respectable and occasionally even more.

Defense and physicality matter, I do agree and have said that many times over the years. But it doesn't need to be UGA level or Iowa level. It just needs to be mediocre and the team should have some physicality overall. Sometimes you can even get away without the defense being even mediocre but it's better to meet at least that threshold. The offense though needs to be quite productive.

 

[rufan4ever]

I see dynamic,, strong, physically gifted , fast players all over the field on both sides of the ball for TCU.
Duggan is one tough load.
I don’t care about the circumstances or how they got to TCU.
You don’t just get it done without speed, size, explosiveness and physicality

And that is why the concept that it will take 5-7 years to rebuild is ridiculous.

 

[rutgersguy1]

Much better coaches than Schiano (like Saban) recognized that the game changed.

Alabama had plenty of success with a great defense and game managing QBs, and Saban didn’t assume that was going to continue to work in today’s game (even with having among the best defensive recruits) and completely changed his team to an offensive juggernaut.

How is Schiano’s style ever going to work with our recruiting when Saban saw his couldn’t with top 5 recruiting?

UGA also has a top 10 offense both scoring and total. It's not as if they're Iowa. Monken is creative too when necessary.

 

[ashokan]

Agreed, but a good defense solves a lot of problems. Georgia held Tennessee—the nation’s best offense—to 13 points this season. I think we’re so traumatized by just the total ineptitude of our offense that we forget that a good defense and effective offense can still be a very powerful combo. We’re craving points like addicts in withdrawal

Alabama's season ended vs TN when they let a Vol WR get 5 TDs on only 6 receptions - a high school type stat.
Football rule changes the last 12 years have greatly favored offense
A defender practically has to play with one hand behind his back
Cant go too low, can't go too high, no helmets contacting etc
Offense is relatively all-out, and you never see an offensive player ejected and rarely are any called for targeting.
A great defense is harder to assemble and luck is more of a factor
Ohio lost last night because their secondary was awful (and not just because of passing - runners scooted right past them).

 

[Yeah Baby]

Alabama's season ended vs TN when they let a Vol WR get 5 TDs on only 6 receptions - a high school type stat.
Football rule changes the last 12 years have greatly favored offense
A defender practically has to play with one hand behind his back
Cant go too low, can't go too high, no helmets contacting etc
Offense is relatively all-out, and you never see an offensive player ejected and rarely are any called for targeting.
A great defense is harder to assemble and luck is more of a factor
Ohio lost last night because their secondary was awful (and not just because of passing - runners scooted right past them).

Good point on the refs and Defense. Look no further than our game vs Nebraska. Their big RB actually stepped out of bounds so Igbonsun let up and then the back steamrolls him. At the end of the game Abraham starts his tackle in bounds and then throws the receiver or RB to the ground. No call on the Offensive player and a game deciding call against the Defensive player. Either both of those should be called or neither. In my opinion it’s football so neither should be called.

 

[bac2therac]

We scored a decent amount in 2020 and finished 3-6 in a BIG only schedule with 2 tough losses.

We threw the ball plenty from 2005-2014 when we were a good team relative to our schedule.

It’s not like we are trying not to play Offense. Anyone who thinks this is pretty clueless. The 4 playoff teams have tons of talent. TCU was the most creative on both sides of the ball but still had a great OL, very good QB and some stud WR’s plus a wrecking ball at RB.

Our coach often decides its best not to try and score with 2-3 minutes before half

 

[Yeah Baby]

I marvel at how easily they scheme people open. It takes using the entire field including throwing over the middle. Schiano is loath to do this because of the potential for a turnover. He’d rather run 3 x and punt.

I also marvel at how fun these teams are to watch. This is entertainment after all. If Schiano is going to lose, at least make it interesting.

I’ll watch us play, but man is it boring as shit.

That was his mindset against Iowa and we lost because of Turnovers. I think he will open it up when we can just like he did two years ago. Agree 100% that fans want to be entertained but I also know our fans want to win. I watched Graber get booed because he was only winning 5-7 games with an exciting Offense. I remember “hey Oug where’s the D?”

The fact is we fans want It all and we need to have both to win. Schiano is stubborn but he’s not stupid.

 

[Yeah Baby]

Our coach often decides its best not to try and score with 2-3 minutes before half

Sometimes that is the right thing to do but if by often you mean the MSU game I agree that was a bad decision. Smart idea to run at first but we got a decent run so why not at least run a few more plays jnstead if letting the clock drain. I see BIG coaches do this all of the time. I don’t like it.

 

[Barnaby&Neill]

Sure that's true about UGA/Tenn but how many teams have the talent up and down the roster of UGA, especially on defense? Very few, probably won't even take 1 hand. Alabama couldn't even stop them with their talent. I don't know what the hell happened in the South Carolina game both with Tenn's offense and USCe.

BTW, it's not as if UGA is playing exclusively slugfest football, Monken is pretty creative in the things he does. Their offense is ranked in the top 10 in both scoring and total.

UGA isn't the blueprint you follow when you're RU. We're not going to get their talent. There's a reason I often bring up WFs, Dukes, TCUs, Oregon States, Baylors, etc...those are comparable programs of what can be done from our level as far as more with less for flashes or longer. UGA is a team doing more with more and that will never be us.

Even these top defensive teams if you're going to beat them, it's likely with offense, not some slugfest. Playing in the mud is exactly what they want and what you shouldn't do because it's hard to compete that way with a talent imbalance. UGA were in dog fights with OSU and OU in the playoffs. Michigan with TCU. MSU with Baylor. It doesn't mean you'll win if it's a shootout but it's the best potential avenue to win. Could you win a slugfest with these kind of teams? Sure anything is possible but the point is which avenue has the most potential for success. In our case, which avenue has the most potential to be competitive, respectable and occasionally even more.

Defense and physicality matter, I do agree and have said that many times over the years. But it doesn't need to be UGA level or Iowa level. It just needs to be mediocre and the team should have some physicality overall. Sometimes you can even get away without the defense being even mediocre but it's better to meet at least that threshold. The offense though needs to be quite productive.

There are no shortcuts, you’re not going to draw up an offensive scheme to make a bad team compete with the blue bloods over a full season.

I don’t really care how we try to play, but I think we’re closer to getting to respectability on the Iowa route than switching gears to the fun and gun route.

People forget there are teams failing at creative offenses all over the country. Also, for all of the criticism of Michigan’s “man ball” in this thread, they tried to run no huddle spread for a few years with Josh Gattis and they sucked.

Hal Mumme got fired from multiple college jobs. Creativity doesn’t guarantee success. And there’s no reason to think we’re a creative offense away from being good.

 

[brgRC90]

Both games were won with last minute heroics. If you don't have an offense capable of that you won't win.

 

[rutgersguy1]

There are no shortcuts, you’re not going to draw up an offensive scheme to make a bad team compete with the blue bloods over a full season.

I don’t really care how we try to play, but I think we’re closer to getting to respectability on the Iowa route than switching gears to the fun and gun route.

People forget there are teams failing at creative offenses all over the country. Also, for all of the criticism of Michigan’s “man ball” in this thread, they tried to run no huddle spread for a few years with Josh Gattis and they sucked.

Michigan didn’t run that with Gattis and I don't think Miami is running it with Gattis now either. Gattis was at Michigan last year and they were smashmouth just like they are now. Harbaugh was in charge of the offense and influences it just like he does now.

I'm not expecting 1 year turnarounds but it doesn't have to take forever either. Also quick turnarounds do happen on offense and I've given examples here. TCU was 5-7 last year, this year Riley and Dykes were able to kick it up a notch on offense and they're in the playoff. WKU had a prostyle offense ranked in the 100s before Kittley got there and when he came 2 years ago and with Arbuckle this past year they got into the top 2-20 in total/scoring offense both years. Mizzou had a similar jump on offense when Heupel became their OC. Tenn had an offense in the 100s the year before Heupel and was 3-7. He comes in as HC and their offense jumped into the top 10 scoring/total and turned it into a 7-6 record and now year 2 an 11 win season. Washington is another one. 4-8 last year with a horrible offense ranked in the 100s to 11-2 this year and an offense ranked 2 and 8 in scoring/total. There are some other examples I've mentioned as well.

Offense isn't a guarantee but IMO it is the avenue with the most potential and ideally you need a mediocre defense and a little physicality to go with it. It also doesn't necessarily take forever to turn things around.

It doesn't mean these results will last or consistency will remain but you can get anywhere from flashes to more consistent respectability.

 

[rutgersguy1]

Article by Forde with some stats on how B10 defenses of Michigan and OSU might not be as good as their ranks because they’re not challenged as toughly by B10 offenses. I’ve said similar before when our defense was brought up here. It doesn’t mean they’re bad but might not be as good as you think either. The SEC has moved towards being more offense oriented and I think the B10 has started to with the additions of USC, UCLA and hires like Longo and Harrell.


From the article:

Ultimately, both teams were not good enough defensively. That’s a recurring theme which could be indicative of being unprepared to face high-octane offenses after weekly doses of underwhelming opposition on that side of the ball.

For the second straight season, Michigan compiled gaudy defensive statistics and then was exploited in the Playoff. TCU’s 6.97 yards per play was the highest the Wolverines allowed all year. Georgia’s 7.89 per play last year in the Orange Bowl was a season-high against Michigan, as well. Alabama creased Harbaugh’s defense for a season-high 8.73 yards per play in the ’19 Citrus Bowl. Florida gouged Michigan for 6.67 in the ’18 Peach Bowl, second-highest that season to Ohio State’s 8.46.

For the Buckeyes, Georgia’s 8.88 yards per play was their highest allowed this season, even higher than the 8.83 Michigan dropped on them in the Horseshoe. (Another damning defensive stat from those two games: Ohio State was outscored 18-3 in the fourth quarter by the Bulldogs and 21-3 in the fourth by the Wolverines.) Last year, Utah scored a season-high 45 points against Ohio State. Alabama ripped Ryan Day’s defense for 52 points and 7.48 yards per play in ’20. Clemson posted season highs of 29 points and 6.73 yards per play in ’19.

Among Big Ten teams, Ohio State and Michigan are so far ahead of their peers offensively that their defenses might not be adequately prepared for postseason play. This season, the Buckeyes are No. 1 nationally in yards per play (7.28), while the Wolverines are 18th (6.62). After that, the rest of the league checks in at 40th (Penn State), 49th (Minnesota), 63rd (Wisconsin), 65th (Maryland), 80th (Purdue), 82nd (Michigan State), 86th (Nebraska), 93rd (Illinois), 123rd (Northwestern), 126th (Indiana), 127th (Rutgers) and 129th (Iowa).

The Southeastern Conference, meanwhile, has seven teams within the top 35 nationally in yards per play. The Big 12 has five. Whether it’s scheme or talent, the leagues of both Playoff finalists are farther along than the Big Ten offensively after its top two teams.

Michigan, Ohio State losses in CFP show Big Ten still has work to do - Sports Illustrated

While the conference made big waves this past offseason, the on-field results are still a work in progress.

www.si.com

 

[Yeah Baby]

We already knew we are not a playoff caliber team. I don’t get some of the responses to this thread. These are the best of the best teams.

Watching Illinois Vs Miss St now and a TD was finally scored well into the first half. Watched Iowa and MD and both teams won with D. Check the scores of all the bowl games. Should we start a thread on all the low pt totals in bowl games too? Defense mattered in all of those games. We now just need a step up in our Offense to win 6-8 games next year. We recently beat Illinois, MD, Cuse and Purdue. MD plays our same unbalanced schedule so if they can do it so can we. If we played the schedule of all these mediocre teams we could have done it already. Keep your heads up.

 

[rutgersguy1]

We already knew we are not a playoff caliber team. I don’t get some of the responses to this thread. These are the best of the best teams.

Watching Illinois Vs Miss St now and a TD was finally scored well into the first half. Watched Iowa and MD and both teams won with D. Check the scores of all the bowl games. Should we start a thread on all the low pt totals in bowl games too? Defense mattered in all of those games. We now just need a step up in our Offense to win 6-8 games next year. We recently beat Illinois, MD, Cuse and Purdue. MD plays our same unbalanced schedule so if they can do it so can we. If we played the schedule of all these mediocre teams we could have done it already. Keep your heads up.

I wouldn’t read much of anything from the bowl games. They’re often not the same teams you saw during the season. There’s a long layoff and players sit or leave. Coaches also leave.

 

[Yeah Baby]

I wouldn’t read much of anything from the bowl games. They’re often not the same teams you saw during the season. There’s a long layoff and players sit or leave. Coaches also leave.

So what is the purpose of this thread then? We are saying the Top 4 teams scored a lot of pts. No $hit. That’s why they are in the playoffs. And don’t take this personally because I have enjoyed all of your comments in this thread and a few others.

I’m with Barbnaby and Neill above. I don’t care what we run but the teams I just mentioned all do it with defense year in and year out and we are closer to them than we are to TCU. I don’t expect any OC to come in and put up 30-40 ppg. We need to step it up obviously and then we have a good chance against more teams on our schedule. Fast forward to when we start having winning seasons and then I will be more inclined to say we need to really open up our Offense. Again, not arguing against it but just feel we have beaten many teams in bowl games. We just need a pulse on offense as a first step to get over that hurdle.

 

[rutgersguy1]

So what is the purpose of this thread then? We are saying the Top 4 teams scored a lot of pts. No $hit. That’s why they are in the playoffs. And don’t take this personally because I have enjoyed all of your comments in this thread and a few others.

I’m with Barbnaby and Neill above. I don’t care what we run but the teams I just mentioned all do it with defense year in and year out and we are closer to them than we are to TCU. I don’t expect any OC to come in and put up 30-40 ppg. We need to step it up obviously and then we have a good chance against more teams on our schedule. Fast forward to when we start having winning seasons and then I will be more inclined to say we need to really open up our Offense. Again, not arguing against it but just feel we have beaten many teams in bowl games. We just need a pulse on offense as a first step to get over that hurdle.

I take it less about the 4 teams specifically but more about the theme of what the trend of CFB is and also how teams lower down the status pole can outperform that status. Theoretically, anything can work and you have instances of different ways. I look for the one with most potential for working and which way seems more ubiquitous towards respectability or better.

 

[Yeah Baby]

I take it less about the 4 teams specifically but more about the theme of what the trend of CFB is and also how teams lower down the status pole can outperform that status. Theoretically, anything can work and you have instances of different ways. I look for the one with most potential for working and which way seems more ubiquitous towards respectability or better.

Yeah this is the trend but like we both said, for every team lighting it up on Offense there are teams that do it with Defense. You need both obviously. I think really good QB’s are at a premium but there are systems that can work for any pretty good QB.

I like what the Giants are doing right now and it took Jones a few years and Barkley to get healthy but the Giants do it with a balanced offense, great D and a great Kicker. I’m okay with that but not sure how far this can take them. I’m just glad they’re winning again.

 

[Knight Shift]

Yeah this is the trend but like we both said, for every team lighting it up on Offense there are teams that do it with Defense. You need both obviously. I think really good QB’s are at a premium but there are systems that can work for any pretty good QB.

I like what the Giants are doing right now and it took Jones a few years and Barkley to get healthy but the Giants do it with a balanced offense, great D and a great Kicker. I’m okay with that but not sure how far this can take them. I’m just glad they’re winning again.

Think that the two posts below pretty much nail it.
Totally agree that you need both obviously. RU did OK in 2020 with semi-functional offense and good defense. This year was tough for a lot of reasons that have been discussed, but the defense did suffer in the games against the top teams with all of the 3 and outs by the offense.

Well, if Michigan played better D they would have won so yea, defense does win championships

Article by Forde with some stats on how B10 defenses of Michigan and OSU might not be as good as their ranks because they’re not challenged as toughly by B10 offenses. I’ve said similar before when our defense was brought up here. It doesn’t mean they’re bad but might not be as good as you think either. The SEC has moved towards being more offense oriented and I think the B10 has started to with the additions of USC, UCLA and hires like Longo and Harrell.


From the article:

Ultimately, both teams were not good enough defensively. That’s a recurring theme which could be indicative of being unprepared to face high-octane offenses after weekly doses of underwhelming opposition on that side of the ball.

For the second straight season, Michigan compiled gaudy defensive statistics and then was exploited in the Playoff. TCU’s 6.97 yards per play was the highest the Wolverines allowed all year. Georgia’s 7.89 per play last year in the Orange Bowl was a season-high against Michigan, as well. Alabama creased Harbaugh’s defense for a season-high 8.73 yards per play in the ’19 Citrus Bowl. Florida gouged Michigan for 6.67 in the ’18 Peach Bowl, second-highest that season to Ohio State’s 8.46.

For the Buckeyes, Georgia’s 8.88 yards per play was their highest allowed this season, even higher than the 8.83 Michigan dropped on them in the Horseshoe. (Another damning defensive stat from those two games: Ohio State was outscored 18-3 in the fourth quarter by the Bulldogs and 21-3 in the fourth by the Wolverines.) Last year, Utah scored a season-high 45 points against Ohio State. Alabama ripped Ryan Day’s defense for 52 points and 7.48 yards per play in ’20. Clemson posted season highs of 29 points and 6.73 yards per play in ’19.

Among Big Ten teams, Ohio State and Michigan are so far ahead of their peers offensively that their defenses might not be adequately prepared for postseason play. This season, the Buckeyes are No. 1 nationally in yards per play (7.28), while the Wolverines are 18th (6.62). After that, the rest of the league checks in at 40th (Penn State), 49th (Minnesota), 63rd (Wisconsin), 65th (Maryland), 80th (Purdue), 82nd (Michigan State), 86th (Nebraska), 93rd (Illinois), 123rd (Northwestern), 126th (Indiana), 127th (Rutgers) and 129th (Iowa).

The Southeastern Conference, meanwhile, has seven teams within the top 35 nationally in yards per play. The Big 12 has five. Whether it’s scheme or talent, the leagues of both Playoff finalists are farther along than the Big Ten offensively after its top two teams.

Michigan, Ohio State losses in CFP show Big Ten still has work to do - Sports Illustrated

While the conference made big waves this past offseason, the on-field results are still a work in progress.

www.si.com