MSG's problem with the BE Tournament

[CoralKnight]

When the BE had 16 teams, the tournament had 8 sessions. Each was sold out with 20K+.

The current BE has 10 teams, the tournament has 5 sessions. The average attendance this year was just under 14K.

You do the math.

This post was edited on 3/15 12:50 PM by CoralKnight

 

[RU85inFla]

I posted this on the RT (below). There is also a Big East fan issue. We all know there are not enough alumni from those schools so you need casual fans. Either the casual fans can't find Fox Sports 1 or the casual fan is not interested in the Big East schools. Anyway they have a problem that is going to get worse. MSG will be up for grabs shortly. They had less than 1/2 the attendance. WOW!!!




Originally posted by PatrickRU92:

Originally posted by RU85inFla:
Since the article is linked. See the future demise of the Big East below. Didn't know it was this bad.




Yet cutting the ESPN cord comes with potential risk for the Big Ten. Industry observers point to the sagging ratings for Big East basketball on Fox Sports 1. League games are averaging 96,000 viewers on the network. Meanwhile, the Big Ten averages 1.2 million viewers per basketball game on ESPN.


ESPN's lowest-rated Big Ten game (553,000 viewers for Georgetown vs. Wisconsin on Thanksgiving Day) had a higher audience than the highest-rated Big East game on Fox Sports 1 (500,000 viewers for Indiana-Butler on Dec. 20).[/B]


Here's another telling stat: Big East teams averaged more than 500,000 viewers in 21 games on ESPN and ESPN2 in which they were the visitor; the home team's games were part of the ESPN package.

[/QUOTE]

This post was edited on 3/15 1:07 PM by RU85inFla

 

[TDIrish1]

Not having Cuse and UConn is a real hit to attendance.

Large local alumni fan base that also travels well.

 

[BigEastPhil]

I posted the same thing on my thread about BET Semis and Finals....I was there this year and read what the crowds were....

When contract terminates or if MSG does the math and computes a buy-out, my prediction is that there will be a rotation in MSG consisting of the ACC, B1G 10 and probably BE every 3 years with each conference being there once per 3 years.

Barclays would be thrilled to have the BET...

 

[e5fdny]

Originally posted by BigEastPhil:

I posted the same thing on my thread about BET Semis and Finals....I was there this year and read what the crowds were....

When contract terminates or if MSG does the math and computes a buy-out, my prediction is that there will be a rotation in MSG consisting of the ACC, B1G 10 and probably BE every 3 years with each conference being there once per 3 years.

Barclays would be thrilled to have the BET...

Fitting too.

B1G and ACC are bigger deals and deserve the bigger stage IMO.

 

[Aggs]

I LOVED the old Big East, but it's lost luster for me. Creighton, Butler and Xavier ... good programs but it's just not the same.

 

[e5fdny]

Originally posted by Aggs:
I LOVED the old Big East, but it's lost luster for me. Creighton, Butler and Xavier ... good programs but it's just not the same.

As I said the other day...

my NOVA alumni relatives disagree. LOL

 

[Aggs]

Originally posted by e5fdny:

Originally posted by Aggs:
I LOVED the old Big East, but it's lost luster for me. Creighton, Butler and Xavier ... good programs but it's just not the same.

As I said the other day...

my NOVA alumni relatives disagree. LOL

Everyone feels differently, especially NOVA alums :-) The Big East will get 60% of the conference into the dance. But only NOVA is a true title contender.

 

[bac2therac]

Their ratings on Fox this year have been atrocious

 

[Scarlet Shack]

Big east moving to the high end of the mid majors is a very good thing for us long term

Big ten tournament will be a regular at MSG

 

[BoroKnight]

I know few will agree, but the Big Ten and ACC do not belong in New York, They just don't. Of course they will be a big success, no doubt. But what college basketball has become flat-out sucks.

The Big Ten belongs in Chicago. The ACC belongs in Greensboro. The Atlantic 10 should be in Philly. Screwing with college football rivalries was bad enough, but college basketball dragging teams from Lincoln or Tallahassee to the Garden just doesn't seem right.

The Big East, while in many ways a better, more cohesive conference than it was, is also a lesser deal in the sports world than it was and now should be one of those that rotates every year. Play it in NYC, DC, Cincinnati, Omaha (!?!) ... it's not the same any more and no longer needs to be in the Garden.

But I would say a conference of small to mid-sized Catholic schools including a few in the Midwest getting 14,000 in the Garden isn't half-bad. The Garden should aim for more, of course, but that's not a bad showing really.

And no, nothing about the Big East means a damn thing to Rutgers. We're on our own, no spillover effect from ANYTHING will benefit us.

 

[rufeelinit]

They need Creighton to be a contender. I understand they brought a ton of people last year.

 

[bac2therac]

while the Big 10 and ACC do not belong in NYC, I don't believe that anyone wants them every year. However I think a 3-4 year rotation is what will be in the works and that's very fair...after all these conferences have eastern presence now.

ACC with Syracuse, Pitt plus the subway ND alums will do boffo in NYC

the Big 10 with all the Big 10 alums will be huge as well..if you were at the RAC this year you saw that there are plenty of fans living in the area. NYC makes a tournament a destination spot.

Also these tourneys still rely on the average Nyc hoops fan and businessman, giving them the option of Michigan-Ohio State vs Xavier-Creighton is a no brainer at this point

 

[rutgersguy1]

I've always said on a longer term basis I see this going to a rotation between a few conferences too. I mean the B10 is already set to squeeze in there at the end of the decade. I'm not sure when the BE contract is up and what if any benchmarks there are but I don't think they'll be the exclusive conference long term (meaning past the length of the current contract).

 

[Upstream]

Originally posted by BoroKnight:
I know few will agree, but the Big Ten and ACC do not belong in New York, They just don't. Of course they will be a big success, no doubt. But what college basketball has become flat-out sucks.

The Big Ten belongs in Chicago. The ACC belongs in Greensboro. The Atlantic 10 should be in Philly. Screwing with college football rivalries was bad enough, but college basketball dragging teams from Lincoln or Tallahassee to the Garden just doesn't seem right.

The Big East, while in many ways a better, more cohesive conference than it was, is also a lesser deal in the sports world than it was and now should be one of those that rotates every year. Play it in NYC, DC, Cincinnati, Omaha (!?!) ... it's not the same any more and no longer needs to be in the Garden.

But I would say a conference of small to mid-sized Catholic schools including a few in the Midwest getting 14,000 in the Garden isn't half-bad. The Garden should aim for more, of course, but that's not a bad showing really.

And no, nothing about the Big East means a damn thing to Rutgers. We're on our own, no spillover effect from ANYTHING will benefit us.

Whether it is the Big Ten dragging UNL from Lincoln, or the Big East dragging Creighton from Omaha, someone wants to drag a team from Nebraska to NYC.

 

[Upstream]

Originally posted by CoralKnight:

When the BE had 16 teams, the tournament had 8 sessions. Each was sold out with 20K+.

The current BE has 10 teams, the tournament has 5 sessions. The average attendance this year was just under 14K.

You do the math.

This post was edited on 3/15 12:50 PM by CoralKnight

OK, so I took up the challenge and did the math.

In 2012 and 2013 (pre-split), the BET sold out MSG with attendance of 20057 per game (with 2 games per session, except for the championship game). Total attendance was 300,855 over 15 games in 2012 and 260,741 over 13 games in 2013.

After the split, attendance dropped to 14,474 per game last year, or total 130,268 over 9 games. And then attendance further dropped to 12,519 per game this year, or total 112,674 over 9 games.

From 2012 to 2015, that is a 37% drop in average game attendance, or a 62% drop in total attendance. Since 2 games per session are included in each admission ticket except for the final game, the decline is in ticket sales is 61%.

I can't imagine that MSG is happy with all the empty seats, and a 61% decline in ticket sales.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

upstream

And I believe a LOWER price too

 

[srru86]

Originally posted by Upstream:

Originally posted by CoralKnight:

When the BE had 16 teams, the tournament had 8 sessions. Each was sold out with 20K+.

The current BE has 10 teams, the tournament has 5 sessions. The average attendance this year was just under 14K.

You do the math.

This post was edited on 3/15 12:50 PM by CoralKnight

OK, so I took up the challenge and did the math.

In 2012 and 2013 (pre-split), the BET sold out MSG with attendance of 20057 per game (with 2 games per session, except for the championship game). Total attendance was 300,855 over 15 games in 2012 and 260,741 over 13 games in 2013.

After the split, attendance dropped to 14,474 per game last year, or total 130,268 over 9 games. And then attendance further dropped to 12,519 per game this year, or total 112,674 over 9 games.

From 2012 to 2015, that is a 37% drop in average game attendance, or a 62% drop in total attendance. Since 2 games per session are included in each admission ticket except for the final game, the decline is in ticket sales is 61%.

I can't imagine that MSG is happy with all the empty seats, and a 61% decline in ticket sales.

This can't be true - our friends over at the New-New Big East have told us their CYO league would be stronger than ever!

 

[RUfinal4]

besides the basketball talent of the teams it is the actual teams / schools:
The larger state schools have more alums, especially in the NYC region. in my analysis below I bolded the school that are potentially the biggest draws of fans. Some are because of hoops success and others because the large alumni base in the NYC area.

New BE:
- St Johns - local team that draws
- Seton Hall - local team that draws when they play well
- Villanova - semi local team with lots of NYC and NJ alums that draws
- Georgetown - name program that is 4 hours away. They are a draw
- Providence - while only a few hours away they are not a draw. Small fanbase
- Butler - small private school in Indiana (500 miles away). They have had hoops success but do not have a lot of alums or fans in NYC
- Xavier - small private school in Ohio 8 hours away. Not a big alumni base in NYC.
- Creighton - Nebraska private school with small alumni base in NYC
- Marquette - good hoops history but small NYC alumni base
- DePaul - good hoops history but small NYC alumni base

Former BE:
- St Johns - local team that draws
- Seton Hall - local team that draws when they play well
- Villanova - semi local team with lots of NYC and NJ alums that draws
- Georgetown - name program that is 4 hours away. They are a draw
- Rutgers - large state school in the state next to NYC with a large alumni base
- UConn - - large state school in the state next to NYC with a large alumni base and basketball success
- Syracuse - large private school where lots of NYCers go. Has a large alumni base in NYC
- Pitt - large state school with many NYC alums. When playing well they brought lots of fans to MSG.
- Notre Dame - most recognized Catholic school in the US with lots of fans that didn't even attend the school
- Louisville - hoops powerhouse that is a draw from their success
- Providence - while only a few hours away they are not a draw. Small fanbase
- Marquette - good hoops history but small NYC alumni base
- DePaul - good hoops history but small NYC alumni base
- USF - State school in Florida that was added for football
- Temple - large state school 100 miles from NYC with historical hoops success

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

hijacking the thread....

watched the last 2 minutes of the Yale-Harvard game at the Palestra.

Not sure why one of these tournaments (A10?) don't play there. That place is electric! I hope in the next 5 years RU finds a way to play in that building again.

 

[srru86]

Originally posted by RUfinal4:

New BE:
- St Johns - local team that draws
- Seton Hall - local team that draws when they play well
- Villanova - semi local team with lots of NYC and NJ alums that draws
- Georgetown - name program that is 4 hours away. They are a draw

If that is what they are going to rely on I'd say they are closer to playing that tourney in Trenton or Albany than the ludicrous assertion they have peddled that the ACC or B1G would never, ever, be able to to peel away a weekend from their parochial school hoopsters at MSG.

 

[bac2therac]

well the A10 did play there but I think with the 8700 capacity they outgrew it...with at least 12 schools that's only 750 tix available per school....and none to the general public...and it becomes a little cramped. They get a bigger stage at the Barclays even with less people in the place and probably the ameneties blow away what they get in that run down Palestra

Quite honestly I have never been a fan of the Palestra though, so antiquated, I get why people like it but we are in a new era now.

 

[Skull83]

To really analyze this issue, I think you need to know the terms of the Big East's deal with MSG. Does the league just rent the arena for a set fee? If so, I don't see why MSG would care about attendance. Is there some sort of revenue sharing? What about concessions, who controls them and profits from them? Depending on the answers to these questions, this may not be a major issue for the Big East, at least for the term of the present contract.

 

[bac2therac]

The Big East lost its top 6 fanbases.....Cuse, UConn, ND, Pitt, UL, and WVU

replaced it with Xavier, Creighton, Butler all schools from the Midwest with limited fanbases and yes Creighton brought a lot last year when they were having their best season in history. These schools will never bring 1/10 of the interest of what any of the 6 schools that left brought

the BE tourney is still a big deal for the average business men bball junkie in NYC but when the ACC and Big 10 come to town and after a few years of watching Midwest schools no one cares about, its going to erode..slowly at first but its going to be noticeable...its noticeable now but just wait.

The Big 10 tourney will be held before the Big East tourney in 2017 at MSG, given the choice who does better?

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by srru86:

Originally posted by RUfinal4:

New BE:
- St Johns - local team that draws
- Seton Hall - local team that draws when they play well
- Villanova - semi local team with lots of NYC and NJ alums that draws
- Georgetown - name program that is 4 hours away. They are a draw

If that is what they are going to rely on I'd say they are closer to playing that tourney in Trenton or Albany than the ludicrous assertion they have peddled that the ACC or B1G would never, ever, be able to to peel away a weekend from their parochial school hoopsters at MSG.

They ought to play in Philly. Its more or a Big East level city at this point.

 

[RUPete]

Originally posted by bac2therac:

The Big East lost its top 6 fanbases.....Cuse, UConn, ND, Pitt, UL, and WVU

replaced it with Xavier, Creighton, Butler all schools from the Midwest with limited fanbases and yes Creighton brought a lot last year when they were having their best season in history. These schools will never bring 1/10 of the interest of what any of the 6 schools that left brought

the BE tourney is still a big deal for the average business men bball junkie in NYC but when the ACC and Big 10 come to town and after a few years of watching Midwest schools no one cares about, its going to erode..slowly at first but its going to be noticeable...its noticeable now but just wait.

The Big 10 tourney will be held before the Big East tourney in 2017 at MSG, given the choice who does better?

I hate to say it because I'm not a huge fan of the whole celebrity college coach thing, but they also lost some of the national marquis coaching names. That always added a little to the juice and that will return with the B1G and ACC.

 

[Upstream]

Originally posted by Skull83:

To really analyze this issue, I think you need to know the terms of the Big East's deal with MSG. Does the league just rent the arena for a set fee? If so, I don't see why MSG would care about attendance. Is there some sort of revenue sharing? What about concessions, who controls them and profits from them? Depending on the answers to these questions, this may not be a major issue for the Big East, at least for the term of the present contract.

When the New BE announced their deal with MSG, there were reports that the contract contained opt-out clauses for MSG if certain performance criteria were not met. While I didn't see any reports of what the performance criteria were, I think you can assume that there would be no need for performance criteria if the contract were only that the BE rented the arena for a set fee and there was no revenue sharing on the part of MSG.

 

[RUfinal4]

Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by srru86:

Originally posted by RUfinal4:

New BE:
- St Johns - local team that draws
- Seton Hall - local team that draws when they play well
- Villanova - semi local team with lots of NYC and NJ alums that draws
- Georgetown - name program that is 4 hours away. They are a draw

If that is what they are going to rely on I'd say they are closer to playing that tourney in Trenton or Albany than the ludicrous assertion they have peddled that the ACC or B1G would never, ever, be able to to peel away a weekend from their parochial school hoopsters at MSG.

They ought to play in Philly. Its more or a Big East level city at this point.

The Wells Center in Philly can work. There is also the Pru center in Newark that is not used for any tournaments if they want to be close to NYC> The big issue with MSG is that there is demand for it so by having the BE they can't have someone else. The Wells Center and Pru center are not being used other than NBA and NHL so may be available.

 

[Knight_Light]

Originally posted by Upstream:

Originally posted by CoralKnight:

When the BE had 16 teams, the tournament had 8 sessions. Each was sold out with 20K+.

The current BE has 10 teams, the tournament has 5 sessions. The average attendance this year was just under 14K.

You do the math.

This post was edited on 3/15 12:50 PM by CoralKnight

OK, so I took up the challenge and did the math.

In 2012 and 2013 (pre-split), the BET sold out MSG with attendance of 20057 per game (with 2 games per session, except for the championship game). Total attendance was 300,855 over 15 games in 2012 and 260,741 over 13 games in 2013.

After the split, attendance dropped to 14,474 per game last year, or total 130,268 over 9 games. And then attendance further dropped to 12,519 per game this year, or total 112,674 over 9 games.

From 2012 to 2015, that is a 37% drop in average game attendance, or a 62% drop in total attendance. Since 2 games per session are included in each admission ticket except for the final game, the decline is in ticket sales is 61%.

I can't imagine that MSG is happy with all the empty seats, and a 61% decline in ticket sales.

No doubt that's a huge drop...especially when you consider all the lost concession revenue, let alone lost tix revenue.