OT: Airplane crash
- Thread starter RU1977
- Start date
That depends on the controlling agency. I don't know about BEA regulations. Recall from the Malaysia Air "disappearance" that some controlling agencies don't require locking cockpit doors, at all.
On U.S. carriers the door locks automatically but I'm pretty sure that the flight crew members have each have their own keys. That's why a 1st class flight attendant will always stand in the aisle between the cabin and the lav/galley whenever one of them is transitioning to or from the cockpit.
Read on another site that authorities dispatched a Mirage fighter that didn't get there in time. Seems folks called authorities while the pilot was trying to re-enter the cockpit. That mirage fighter was broadcasting 7700 which I believe means hijack. Normally the hijacked plane would broadcast the ID not the Mirage but I could see why they would in this case.
Now that doesn't mean there def was a takeover by one pilot because passengers seeing the other pilot locked out and trying to break in may have reported it that way.
I am also told that the only way the pilot could not get back in is if the other pilot prevents that.
Very fishy.
I wouldn't really trust that information. Most planes don't have direct sat phones in the cabin anymore and there's no way anyone is getting a cell signal up there. I suppose it's possible that they had wi-fi (does GermanWings do that?) and made calls that way, but... it seems fishy.
Also adding to the potential lack of credibility - the "trouble duration" was no more than 10 minutes. From phone calls to fighter jet on a wingtip in 10 minutes? No. F*cking. Way.
Former NTSB on Anderson said that cockpit door has zero access ( no keys) outside. Procedure supposedly is if pilot leaves , crew member must be present with remaining pilot to prevent lone individual in the cockpit. Just relaying what was stated , don't know if accurate.
I fly probably 30-40 times a year. I've never seen that happen. Ever. The usual drill is:
Two bells on the intercom from the cockpit1st class FA answers1st class FA moves to a standing position in the aisle between the cabin and the forward service unit (lav and galley)Cockpit door opens, crew member comes out, closes door, goes in to lav
The New York Times article suggested the possibility of cockpit decompression, but a medical emergency also could have the same effect. You kind of have to assume that the pilot who still in the cockpit did something like slumping over the controls to cause the plane to descend, too.
But, of course, we don't really know anything yet.
But, of course, we don't really know anything yet.
I watched a little bit of Cooper and his panelists.
Cooper is an idiot, by the way.
Here's the problem I have with the "medical emergency" scenario:
So the sole remaining pilot in the cockpit strokes out while the other guy is dropping a deuce or trimming his pubes or whatever.
So what? Why does the plane go into a 3000 - 4000 fpm descent? The autopilot isn't wired to the dude's pacemaker, right? So he's dead. Big deal.
To make it work, you have to then say something like, "He fell over and hit the stick, which disengaged the sutopilot and so the plane went into a dive."
Except it wasn't a "dive". The ADS-B data on this flight is solid from take-off until impact. We discussed this above - "controlled flight into terrain". If somebody just pushed on the stick and put the aircraft into a dive, the airspeed would increase.
It didn't. It remained constant. It was a classic "cruise descent".
There is one thing and one thing only that will give you a cruise descent and that's a reduction in power. Which doesn't fit the "guy stroked out and fell over" scenario.
Engine failure, partial engine failure and somebody pulling back on the throttles.
If the engines blinked out and nobody was controlling the resulting descent, the plane would have fallen from the sky in a much bigger hurry.
There aren't too many reasons I can think of why an engine in normal operating condition would suffer a partial reduction in power output due to a failure. Generally speaking, they're on and running normally or they're not on.
Which kinda makes me lean toward Option 3. It's too soon to know, of course. The FDR data will be the key to the puzzle in this case, since it records things like throttle settings.
It's curious to me, though, that the names of the flight crew haven't been released.
RU4Real - One more post about AF447. How could they not know they were in a stall? I assume they knew they were descending. So if you are nose up, full throttle, and still falling, what else could it be? Was it just too short of a time for the pilots to figure it out? I read the transcript and the captain didn't seem to help the situation.
4Real - as usual, great insights on aviation practices, operations and safety, thanks. In reading the bold part of your post, I'm guessing you're familiar with the "Swiss Cheese Model" of accident/incident analysis, developed by James Reason in the 90s, as originally applied to aviation. In case you haven't and for the rest of the folks on the board who likely aren't familiar with it, I thought I'd provide a little background and a link to a well done article discussing its pros and cons, plus the graphic below, which represents how the model works, conceptually.
The Swiss Cheese Model has been adapted to many other fields, including chemical safety and we've used it on occasion to try to help get to the root cause (or root causes and contributing factors, more frequently) for incidents/accidents, along with tools like "5 Whys" and "Failure Mode and Effects Analysis." Essentially, for most major accidents, there are usually failures in many elements of the layers of protective systems put in place to prevent major accidents, where the "layers of protection" are like pieces of Swiss Cheese in series and the potential failure points in each layer are the "holes" in the cheese and accidents only occur when the "failures" (holes) line up perfectly in the multiple layers of protection.
It's not a perfect model and there are some criticisms out there over its use (and potential overuse), as per the link, but as a conceptual model to help guide investigators' thought processes, it was a breakthrough in thinking and is still a great tool used in multiple industries to analyze accidents. I have no clue what the outcome of the investigation into this accident will be, but I'm pretty sure it will reveal an "unfortunate culmination of a sequence of events," as you put it. My one other comment is people need to stop jumping on every piece of data/info that comes out and let the professionals do their jobs - these investigations take time to do well, since it takes time to gather all of the relevant data.
https://www.eurocontrol.int/eec/gallery/content/public/document/eec/report/2006/017_Swiss_Cheese_Model.pdf
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
This post was edited on 3/26 12:22 AM by RU848789
edit: duplicate post deleted...
This post was edited on 3/25 11:41 PM by RU848789
This post was edited on 3/25 11:42 PM by RU848789
This post was edited on 3/25 11:41 PM by RU848789
This post was edited on 3/25 11:42 PM by RU848789
As Richard Quest would say with English accent, "Indeed". I'd like to know a little more about the pilots and their backgrounds.
Two additional thoughts:
1. The authorities said as of late last night that they hadn't finished notifying next of kin, so I don't think they'd released any names, including any of the crew. (When you get reports that 2 Americans died, etc., it's usually because of notifications to the governments or the individual families.)
2. The Swiss Cheese post makes a great point - incidents like this usually are caused by a series of individually improbable events, so when you say "what are the odds x would happen?" the answer is that they're pretty low, but not 0. Major airplane crashes are - thank God! - very rare, so they're usually caused by very rare confluences of events.
1. The authorities said as of late last night that they hadn't finished notifying next of kin, so I don't think they'd released any names, including any of the crew. (When you get reports that 2 Americans died, etc., it's usually because of notifications to the governments or the individual families.)
2. The Swiss Cheese post makes a great point - incidents like this usually are caused by a series of individually improbable events, so when you say "what are the odds x would happen?" the answer is that they're pretty low, but not 0. Major airplane crashes are - thank God! - very rare, so they're usually caused by very rare confluences of events.
In summary, yes - we knew last night that one of the flight crew was locked out of the cockpit during the last 10 minutes. It's just this morning that French authorities are saying that "there was a deliberate attempt to destroy the aircraft".
The information from the FDR, if it's ever recovered, will confirm this.
It seems obvious to me that authorities are sitting on the names of the flight crew because they don't want to put the accusatory cart ahead of the horse.
But if this is what it appears to be, it's a problem that's going to have to be addressed. Not counting the 9/11 hijackings, this will be the fourth or fifth commercial airliner that was dropped from the sky by a crew member, speculatively in the name of Allah.
Failure to get out in front of the issue, somehow, some way, will have a very ugly impact on air travel.
For my part, I always stop just past the cabin door during boarding and say a quick hello to the folks on the flight deck. Give 'em the once over. Yeah, I know... it's not foolproof, but it's something.
The information from the FDR, if it's ever recovered, will confirm this.
It seems obvious to me that authorities are sitting on the names of the flight crew because they don't want to put the accusatory cart ahead of the horse.
But if this is what it appears to be, it's a problem that's going to have to be addressed. Not counting the 9/11 hijackings, this will be the fourth or fifth commercial airliner that was dropped from the sky by a crew member, speculatively in the name of Allah.
Failure to get out in front of the issue, somehow, some way, will have a very ugly impact on air travel.
For my part, I always stop just past the cabin door during boarding and say a quick hello to the folks on the flight deck. Give 'em the once over. Yeah, I know... it's not foolproof, but it's something.
They've released the names:
PARIS (AP) — The co-pilot of a Germanwings flight that slammed into an Alpine mountainside "intentionally" sent the plane into its doomed descent, a French prosecutor said Thursday.
Related Stories
Germanwings co-pilot had 630 hours' flying experience: Lufthansa AFP
Pilot locked out of cockpit before mystery French Alps crash AFP
France Faces Daunting Search for Wreckage of German Plane The Wall Street Journal
The Latest: Germanwings says 150 aboard crash plane Associated Press
Pilot on Germanwings flight locked out of cockpit before crash: reports MarketWatch
Marseille prosecutor Brice Robin said the commander left the cockpit, presumably to go to the lavatory, and then was unable to regain access. In the meantime, he said, co-pilot Andreas Lubitz manually and "intentionally" set the plane on the descent that drove it into the mountainside in the southern French Alps.
It was the co-pilot's "intention to destroy this plane," Robin said.
The information was pulled from the black box cockpit voice recorder, but Robin said the co-pilot did not say a word after the commanding pilot left the cockpit.
"It was absolute silence in the cockpit," he said.
During the final minutes of the flight's descent, pounding could be heard on the door as alarms sounded, he said.
View galleryDeadly Airbus A320 crash In the French Alps
A French gendarme helicopter flies over the crash site of Germanwings Airbus A320, near Seyne-les-Al …
In the German town of Montabaur, acquaintances said Lubitz was in his late twenties and showed no signs of depression when they saw him last fall as he renewed his glider pilot's license.
"He was happy he had the job with Germanwings and he was doing well," said a member of the glider club, Peter Ruecker, who watched him learn to fly. "He gave off a good feeling."
Lubitz had obtained his glider pilot's license as a teenager, and was accepted as a Lufthansa pilot trainee after finishing a tough German college preparatory school, Ruecker said. He described Lubitz as a "rather quiet" but friendly young man.
The Airbus A320, on a flight from Barcelona to Duesseldorf, began to descend from cruising altitude after losing radio contact with ground control and slammed into the remote mountain on Tuesday morning, killing all 150 people on board.
Lufthansa has not identified the pilots but said the co-pilot joined Germanwings in September 2013, directly after training, and had flown 630 hours.
The captain had more than 6,000 hours of flying time and been a Germanwings pilot since May 2014, having previously flown for Lufthansa and Condor, Lufthansa said.
___
David Rising in Berlin and Alan Clendenning in Madrid contributed to this report.
http://news.yahoo.com/official-1-pilot-locked-crash-plane-cockpit-072049706.html?clear-cache
Posted from Rivals Mobile
PARIS (AP) — The co-pilot of a Germanwings flight that slammed into an Alpine mountainside "intentionally" sent the plane into its doomed descent, a French prosecutor said Thursday.
Related Stories
Germanwings co-pilot had 630 hours' flying experience: Lufthansa AFP
Pilot locked out of cockpit before mystery French Alps crash AFP
France Faces Daunting Search for Wreckage of German Plane The Wall Street Journal
The Latest: Germanwings says 150 aboard crash plane Associated Press
Pilot on Germanwings flight locked out of cockpit before crash: reports MarketWatch
Marseille prosecutor Brice Robin said the commander left the cockpit, presumably to go to the lavatory, and then was unable to regain access. In the meantime, he said, co-pilot Andreas Lubitz manually and "intentionally" set the plane on the descent that drove it into the mountainside in the southern French Alps.
It was the co-pilot's "intention to destroy this plane," Robin said.
The information was pulled from the black box cockpit voice recorder, but Robin said the co-pilot did not say a word after the commanding pilot left the cockpit.
"It was absolute silence in the cockpit," he said.
During the final minutes of the flight's descent, pounding could be heard on the door as alarms sounded, he said.
View galleryDeadly Airbus A320 crash In the French Alps
A French gendarme helicopter flies over the crash site of Germanwings Airbus A320, near Seyne-les-Al …
In the German town of Montabaur, acquaintances said Lubitz was in his late twenties and showed no signs of depression when they saw him last fall as he renewed his glider pilot's license.
"He was happy he had the job with Germanwings and he was doing well," said a member of the glider club, Peter Ruecker, who watched him learn to fly. "He gave off a good feeling."
Lubitz had obtained his glider pilot's license as a teenager, and was accepted as a Lufthansa pilot trainee after finishing a tough German college preparatory school, Ruecker said. He described Lubitz as a "rather quiet" but friendly young man.
The Airbus A320, on a flight from Barcelona to Duesseldorf, began to descend from cruising altitude after losing radio contact with ground control and slammed into the remote mountain on Tuesday morning, killing all 150 people on board.
Lufthansa has not identified the pilots but said the co-pilot joined Germanwings in September 2013, directly after training, and had flown 630 hours.
The captain had more than 6,000 hours of flying time and been a Germanwings pilot since May 2014, having previously flown for Lufthansa and Condor, Lufthansa said.
___
David Rising in Berlin and Alan Clendenning in Madrid contributed to this report.
http://news.yahoo.com/official-1-pilot-locked-crash-plane-cockpit-072049706.html?clear-cache
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Time has come to fly planes without pilots and be controlled from a central location like drones. We probably need a co-pilot on the plane in case there is a need for him to communicate with the central control center.
The main reason this is not going to happen is the pilot union. They have to protect the jobs of the pilots.
The main reason this is not going to happen is the pilot union. They have to protect the jobs of the pilots.
I saw the story, and while it's certainly a plausible (maybe even likely) explanation, the French prosecutor who's saying this seems to be basing it entirely on his interpretation of the voice recorder, which even by his account does not include any audio of the co-pilot saying anything. I don't think the flight data recorder has been recovered yet.
I'm just pointing out that the evidence in support of the theory is coming from someone who doesn't have access to all of the facts. (And is not even remotely an expert in the field.) As for what might be plausible, I'd suggest reading the rest of the thread, particularly the Swiss Cheese post. Most major airplane crashes occur because of a series of unlikely events that would seem implausible until they happen.
Thanks, but since I wrote much of the rest of the thread, I'm gonna say I'm good on this. Maybe YOU should read the rest of the thread, which includes a lot of "rule out" and associated reasons behind them.
Here's the deal - a 28 year-old, relatively inexperienced co-pilot, one Andreas Lubitz, a German national, locked the captain out of the cockpit and initiated a controlled flight into terrain.
If you think there's no evidence to support this theory above all others, you haven't been paying attention.
A
anon_ivydyf0amkzay
Guest
I think you're missing a lot of "big picture".
In order to allow commercial jets to be entirely automated, there would have to be developed an entire control unit that aggregates data parameters currently not available to the autopilot or flight control systems. That control unit ("the computer") would have to contain sufficient software code to deal with every conceivable contingency. Such systems do not exist at this time. And it would have to be redundant - in fact, it would have to have multiple redundancies. This would require a redesign of all commercial aircraft as we know them.
Good luck selling plane tix to the public for "drone" flights.
Back in Freehold, we lived.next door to a then Pan Am 747 Pilot who said on multi occasions: "98% of the time we are overpaid but its during the 2% that we really earn our salary".
Don't think there will ever be a.time over the next 50 years when a US Airline has a drone fleet and NO, it will have nothing to do.with the pilot union.
This post was edited on 3/26 2:35 PM by Knight_Light
If this was a terrorism-related motivation vs. depression/suicide, wouldn't the pilot do something even more destructive than fly into a mountain? Obviously if suicide was the motivation, I can think of many better ways to do it than to take a plane full of people with you, but I have to think if this was done for terrorism purposes, you at least fly the plane into a town or city...no?
