OT: Drawing on board expertise: Toms River for a retirement residence?

[JayDogSmooth]

Have you been on Oak Tree Road in Iselin or in Ft Lee

Communities change to the needs and wants of the people who live there.

When did you move to Howell? Like Jackson the people who lived there 30 or 40 years ago think you and others like you destroyed their way of life.

The big difference while they are not happy with it their animosity never reaches the type we see with the Orthodox. Or in the 70’s in Iselin with the Indians or as I was told the Koreans in Ft Lee and Palisades Park.

There’s a difference between building the mansions on farms that have been there for hundreds of years, and completely destroying communities

We’ve been here since 2012, and my wife having grown up in Manalapan knew the area well

I grew up in Redington, and saw firsthand with zoning, was all about with all of the houses that went up in Branchburg into a certain extent of the White House station part of our town

Again, what happened in Hunterdon & Somerset counties in the 90s vs what’s happening in Ocean County now is not even remotely the same

They’re literally attempting to take over entire neighboring towns - which is why, as ive discussed and with my wife asnaseum, we have our head on a swivel and will be immediately moving out if they come up by us

 

[JayDogSmooth]

Clark may be a town that could elicit more negative reactions than Lakewood. Though both definitely generate a lot of work for the legal community.

More negative reactions is certainly a stretch, but they’re certainly no choirboys over in Clark

 

[NotInRHouse]

Get back to me when you live near Lakewood - they’ve literally ruined it

It’s plain as day how these guys act and get away with it

Frankly, it’s criminal

Call me an asshole
Call me politically incorrect
Hell, even call me insensitive

But don’t call me a inaccurate
Don’t call me misinformed
And certainly don’t call me a liar

I think the issue is typecasting. My guess is based on your age (which sounds a little older than me) Lakewood was never a wonderful place to live in our lifetimes. Maybe Staten Island was wonderful before our own people arrived there. I don't know. What I do know is we can't throw everyone in one bucket. If you read about the issues in Lakewood it's often religious people fighting religious people on things. I'm personally deeply sceptical of organized religion but I know plenty of religious people of all religions who are terrible and those that are some of the best people I know. Everyone has a right to choose what is best for them. Safe to say basically anyone in NJ, if they are selling right now, is making money and it's hard to argue with that.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Have you been on Oak Tree Road in Iselin or in Ft Lee

Communities change to the needs and wants of the people who live there.

When did you move to Howell? Like Jackson the people who lived there 30 or 40 years ago think you and others like you destroyed their way of life.

The big difference while they are not happy with it their animosity never reaches the type we see with the Orthodox. Or in the 70’s in Iselin with the Indians or as I was told the Koreans in Ft Lee and Palisades Park.

One thing I will say is those communities benefited in two ways. Home values and caliber of public education. JP Stevens is probably a top 20 HS in NJ, and Fort Lee certainly top 100.

Howell and Freehold Twp probably around the 100 mark and Colts Neck inside of it (the three HS you can go to there). I think a lot of the people in the area want to make sure that value is protected because that is probably why they moved there to begin with.

 

[NotInRHouse]

If you haven't noticed you must have your eyes closed. Im in Farmingdale and consider my days numbered.

This doesn't seem to make sense as I am not sure they can walk to services in Farmingdale. That area is pretty spread out.

I also know of a lot of people who would love to buy homes in that area if they would just build some more. It's close to the shore and good schools, a nice place to work from home if you can.

 

[tom1944]

Do the people who live in Lakewood think it is ruined?

You think the building of McMansions did not ruin the town and that is fine. But to people who lived there before they were built many do think it ruined it.

And it would be wrong for them to say you know those (whatever) are all crooks and ruin everything. It is fine to say I do not like the changes and do not want to live here if the changes are not what I like.

 

[T2Kplus20]

That they changed the zoning and built in a way that the people who lived there wanted to build?

You do realize that to people who lived in Jackson and Howell up to 1990 the same thing happened to them. As it does in every town in NJ.

Will Jackson change as the demographics of the residents change of course. I am not sure that calls for the vilification of the people who move here.

I understand what you are doing but know you are smart enough to know the truth. My original post perfectly sums up the situation.

 

[tom1944]

One thing I will say is those communities benefited in two ways. Home values and caliber of public education. JP Stevens is probably a top 20 HS in NJ, and Fort Lee certainly top 100.

Howell and Freehold Twp probably around the 100 mark and Colts Neck inside of it (the three HS you can go to there). I think a lot of the people in the area want to make sure that value is protected because that is probably why they moved there to begin with.

JFK went from the worst high school in Woodbridge to the best.

 

[JayDogSmooth]

I think the issue is typecasting. My guess is based on your age (which sounds a little older than me) Lakewood was never a wonderful place to live in our lifetimes. Maybe Staten Island was wonderful before our own people arrived there. I don't know. What I do know is we can't throw everyone in one bucket. If you read about the issues in Lakewood it's often religious people fighting religious people on things. I'm personally deeply sceptical of organized religion but I know plenty of religious people of all religions who are terrible and those that are some of the best people I know. Everyone has a right to choose what is best for them. Safe to say basically anyone in NJ, if they are selling right now, is making money and it's hard to argue with that.

Thats definitely a fair sentiment, as I think anytime change happens it’s going to elicit certain reaction from certain groups of people

 

[tom1944]

I understand what you are doing but know you are smart enough to know the truth. My original post perfectly sums up the situation.

What is the truth- that people moved there, elected people who represented them and changed zoning laws?

I am fine with anyone not liking change to their town. I think it is wrong to call the Orthodox all crooks and other derogatory terms and accuse them all of acting in bad faith. We should save that for MAGA republicans. That way you are not antisemitic, but you include the Orthodox.

And for anyone with hurt feelings I am being sarcastic.

 

[JayDogSmooth]

Do the people who live in Lakewood think it is ruined?

You think the building of McMansions did not ruin the town and that is fine. But to people who lived there before they were built many do think it ruined it.

And it would be wrong for them to say you know those (whatever) are all crooks and ruin everything. It is fine to say I do not like the changes and do not want to live here if the changes are not what I like.

Do people who live in North Korea think it sucks?

 

[T2Kplus20]

What is the truth- that people moved there, elected people who represented them and changed zoning laws?

I am fine with anyone not liking change to their town. I think it is wrong to call the Orthodox all crooks and other derogatory terms and accus them all of acting in bad faith. We should save that for MAGA republicans. That way you are not antisemitic, but you include the Orthodox.

And for anyone with hurt feelings I am being sarcastic.

I stand by my original post. Feel free to refer back to it regarding what I said and didn't say.

 

[tom1944]

Do people who live in North Korea think it sucks?

Sure, some not all.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Do the people who live in Lakewood think it is ruined?

You think the building of McMansions did not ruin the town and that is fine. But to people who lived there before they were built many do think it ruined it.

And it would be wrong for them to say you know those (whatever) are all crooks and ruin everything. It is fine to say I do not like the changes and do not want to live here if the changes are not what I like.

Ironically many anti-development folks there are part of the religious communities from what I have read.

I think everyone knows I'm sceptical around religion. But people do have 1A rights. My issue is only when there is compulsion- some of the stories you hear about people who want to leave or can't, or gender segregated buses that taxes pay for.

But...people wanting to spend top dollar for homes and raise a family, that i don't think we should ever be against. Because, at some time, someone was against my ancestors coming here. Someone was against moving to JC and "gentrifying." Every place has a before and after.

 

[tom1944]

Has nothing to do with nice vs not nice or good vs bad. The issue is that it's a very insular community that consolidates in areas, eventually takes control of local govs, and governs for their unique needs first and foremost.

What happened in Lakewood will soon happen in Jackson.

This the post you mean right?

My posts about people voting and changing laws was in response to this. That fact that the Orthodox are more efficient at it does not mean we should call them crooks and other derogatory names.

I would think ultimately the people of a town where the community is insular is actually better for those that live there than a town where 51% versus 49% of the population want different things.

 

[T2Kplus20]

This the post you mean right?

My posts about people voting and changing laws was in response to this. That fact that the Orthodox are more efficient at it does not mean we should call them crooks and other derogatory names.

I would think ultimately the people of a town where the community is insular is actually better for those that live there than a town where 51% versus 49% of the population want different things.

Yup, this one. Any questions?

 

[tom1944]

Yup, this one. Any questions?

I think what you said is accurate. I just don't think it is a reason to question the character of the Orthodox.

 

[Scarlet1984]

JFK went from the worst high school in Woodbridge to the best.

Which just goes to show that school rankings are stupid. JP Stevens and Edison High School have the same resources available to them. The school ranking has way more to do with the IQs of the kids (and the income and IQs of the parents) than it does with the teaching quality. (My opinion based on anecdotal and obvious information.)

 

[yesrutgers01]

I think when talking about some towns such as Lakewood, it is less about the religion but the business behind the religion that are bullying their way through towns.

 

[yesrutgers01]

When I think of Tom's River- my mind always goes back to the early 2000's- a co worker of mine who I had become pretty close with- he and his wife were murdered in their home there and their son barely survived.

 

[fg7321]

Have they started moving into Southern Howell? We're in the Northern part and haven't seen any but I've heard rumblings about it

Yes S Howell is an issue now.

 

[fg7321]

is your preference new jersey because of proximity to family?...I'm researching Lewes/Rehoboth area to retire in 5-7 years ...figure the NJ taxes will continue to go up...

We wanted to move to deleware. Kids are staying in NJ and grand kids will be after that. I don't want to be 3+ hours away

 

[fg7321]

Being from Monmouth Cty what is happening in Lakewood and the surrounding areas are scaring away long term homeowners. Hassidic folks are moving in and forcing their religious doctorine on the town.

Schools are being built with dorms that were approved after court decisions.

Homes are being turned into places of worship upsetting neighborhoods and if challenged a court fight ensues and people are called antisemitic because they didn't want to live next to a home that is now a temple. That takes that home off the tax roll as well

Other interesting side notes Lakewood owes the state of New Jersey 200 million in loans for their schools. How will they ever pay that back?

There's a school in Lakewood that is for special needs kids that is 95% Hasidic cost of the school was over $100,000 per pupil. The leader of that school is eventually going to jail he's been fighting it for years.

Lakewood schools gets more money and Erate federal funding then Jersey City or Newark schools.

A couple years ago Amnesty was granted for Medicaid fraud to allow Hasidic families to pay back the government for money/benefits that they received illegally.

Look into upstate NY Orange Cty to see what happened there.

I have Jewish family members and grew up and live in a town that has a large percentage of Jewish population. Feel free to practice your religion as you wish I just don't want to be overwhelmed by it.

 

[Plum Street]

When I think of Tom's River- my mind always goes back to the early 2000's- a co worker of mine who I had become pretty close with- he and his wife were murdered in their home there and their son barely survived.

Whoa ….what a terrible story.
Was it a home invasion?

 

[jreinsdorf]

This doesn't seem to make sense as I am not sure they can walk to services in Farmingdale. That area is pretty spread out.

I also know of a lot of people who would love to buy homes in that area if they would just build some more. It's close to the shore and good schools, a nice place to work from home if you can.

Farmingdale is spread out? It is literally 1 mile north to south with a single traffic light.

 

[jreinsdorf]

I don’t venture past Home Depot in Howell very often and I never see them in there

Were in Farmingdale weekly for church and I’ve never one in town during our 12 years living there

You wont see them residing there...yet. They own commercial warehouse space in Farmingdale. As residents they have quickly saturated the areas from Aldrich road south.

 

[jreinsdorf]

The Edgar Felix bike path near Allaire State Park- always seems to be an older father, looks to be in 50s, wife looks like she is in her teens or early 20s, multiple kids- they wander aimlessly back and forth across the bike path, oblivious to bike riders.

Allaire Park. The Manasquan reservoir. Soldier Memorial Field.

 

[jreinsdorf]

I'm in Southern Howell. Yes, in certain areas they have and are renting to undesirables to get people out. My area off Kent has seen one, but that's it as a lot of its mostly farms. It's a lot of wetlands down this way being on the Metedeconk watershed. So, ripping every tree out and asphalting over every blade of grass like they want is a no go. My area is ARE2. So, they need at least 2 acres to build, they don't like that.

The town just bought most of Ford Rd.. As an Orthodox wanted to put in a school with dormitories and some warehouses right on the watershed. The town and DEP said no and after a long legal battle he sold to the town.

That watershed must be the difference because Candlewood is slightly north of you and is being ruined.

 

[JayDogSmooth]

You wont see them residing there...yet. They own commercial warehouse space in Farmingdale. As residents they have quickly saturated the areas from Aldrich road south.

They’re trying to do the same thing in northern Howell, where we live off of Adelphia Road and Vanderveer, and over by the schools on Fairfield road

Truly scary stuff and beyond corrupt, hopefully it does not go through as it will ruin things quickly.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Whoa ….what a terrible story.
Was it a home invasion?

It was actually an off duty cop- broke into Gary's home, shot his wife in the living room, found Gary in his office at the back of the house and their son was able to escape out a window. Guy goes to another neighbor shoots them and then heads to his boss's house in another town where he only wounded him and then shot himself.
Gary was my co-worker. We all worked out of Lyndhurst and would get together 3-4 days each month to reconcile timesheets and contracts for our various staffs. We had just finished up one of these events and the day after, we find out about it. I worked with him for 3 years.

 

[koleszar]

That watershed must be the difference because Candlewood is slightly north of you and is being ruined.

Candlewood is toast. They're already employing the block busting techniques of renting out to undesirables and letting the properties fall into disrepair.

The only things that have saved my area so far, it's zoned ARE2, there's no sewer or gas and wetlands everywhere. We have a bog which eventually turns into a stream that feeds the Metedeconk. It's all farms by me and I have 8 acres so no one can really get close. There's no value to the Orthodox in my area since they can't asphalt the entire place.

Even with that, I could see them screaming Antisemitism and getting a Yeshiva or Synagogue built next to me in an area zoned for Agriculture and Real Estate. Unfortunately it's what they do.

 

[kupuna133]

Tom - I think we are on a similar page.

This whole thread is pretty whacky. Naturally, people are wary of any group that wants to divert money from public education to private education and home schooling. Well...maybe not ANY group. But this group is scary.

Well...people are wary of any group that wants to game the system so tax dollars go to them while they pay minimal taxes. Except billionaires. Because they're smart.

Sarcasm aside, why is it OK for people to be comfortable showing open disdain for this small ethno-religious group? I'm not trying to be the language police but WTF. I know someone will have some lame response but HOW IS THIS EVEN AN ARGUMENT?

Remember a sociology class I took at Rutgers. This was back in early to mid 90’s. Professor asked who is the largest user of government entitlements it was by far the orthodox Jewish community. He recited the multiple levels of government subsidies they were entitled. It starts at Medicaid and balloons to almost every other government subsidy. Most only have religious weddings so they are single parents with multiple children and father is a career student.

 

[jreinsdorf]

Candlewood is toast. They're already employing the block busting techniques of renting out to undesirables and letting the properties fall into disrepair.

The only things that have saved my area so far, it's zoned ARE2, there's no sewer or gas and wetlands everywhere. We have a bog which eventually turns into a stream that feeds the Metedeconk. It's all farms by me and I have 8 acres so no one can really get close. There's no value to the Orthodox in my area since they can't asphalt the entire place.

Even with that, I could see them screaming Antisemitism and getting a Yeshiva or Synagogue built next to me in an area zoned for Agriculture and Real Estate. Unfortunately it's what they do.

Yeah I have several close friends in Candlewood. The stories they tell regarding the tenants, frequent police visits, noise, drinking etc sucks. He had to send camera footage to the cops just last week because some guy walked onto his property at 5am and was looking around. When a light went on the guy casually made off. That dude doesn't know how close he was to getting shot. A lawyer told my buddy he has to sell within a year "or the bottom will fall out."

 

[koleszar]

Yeah I have several close friends in Candlewood. The stories they tell regarding the tenants, frequent police visits, noise, drinking etc sucks. He had to send camera footage to the cops just last week because some guy walked onto his property at 5am and was looking around. When a light went on the guy casually made off. That dude doesn't know how close he was to getting shot. A lawyer told my buddy he has to sell within a year "or the bottom will fall out."

Have a friend who I also tailgate with for Rutgers games over there as well by the school. He's looking to get out and move down to Manahawkin. Just 5 houses up from him, Orthodox bought and rented, now nothing but loud music at all hours and garbage everywhere. It's easy for people to take the higher ground when it's not in their backyard.

 

[JayDogSmooth]

We’re in NJ for another 9 years then out
Hoping they stay south of 195 until then

 

[Leonard23]

May want to look up Kiryas Joel, NY, their annexation in Monroe, and what Shalom Lamm did in Bloomingburg, NY. The fraud is pretty staggering. Jackson, Toms River, Brick, and Howell are at risk.

Bloomingburg

Real Estate Developers Sentenced In White Plains Federal Court For Conspiracy To Corrupt The Electoral Process In Bloomingburg

www.justice.gov

Lamm sentenced to 10 months in prison for voter-fraud scheme

WHITE PLAINS - A federal judge sentenced developer Shalom Lamm on Thursday to 10 months in prison for his role in the scheme to fraudulently register voters for the March 2014 Bloomingburg village el…

www.recordonline.com

https://www.timesofisrael.com/developer-sentenced-in-scam-to-build-hasidic-catskills-village/

KJ

HASIDS RAN $4.5M FRAUD MILL: FEDS

A pillar of an upstate Hasidic community headed a “full-service fraud factory,” using phony identities to steal $4.5 million in tax refunds, business loans and life-insurance payoffs, p…

nypost.com

https://www.timesofisrael.com/fierce-protest-against-satmar-annexation-of-ny-town/

Kiryas Joel raids: 5 things to know

The FBI is raiding several locations in Kiryas Joel, a small, predominantly ultra-Orthodox village in Orange County.

www.lohud.com

https://www.timesofisrael.com/7-arrested-including-rabbi-in-alleged-14m-scam-to-steal-from-ny-schools/

Family accused in $20 million mortgage fraud scheme

The indictment includes charges of bank fraud, identity theft and theft of public money.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Kbee3]

Have a friend who I also tailgate with for Rutgers games over there as well by the school. He's looking to get out and move down to Manahawkin. Just 5 houses up from him, Orthodox bought and rented, now nothing but loud music at all hours and garbage everywhere. It's easy for people to take the higher ground when it's not in their backyard.

What kind of loud music ?

 

[rutgersal]

All the OP is looking for is a nice, reasonable place near the beach, and Tom’s River is as nice as any.

The theme of this thread seems to be don’t move to Tom’s River because of the Orthodox.

But I have yet to read a single tangible reason as to how the Orthodox will affect OPs quality of life should he choose to live in Toms River. I have yet to see a single Orthodox live in a retirement community, where op wants to live, because these aren’t places where the Orthodox can build their McMansions.

My friends live in the vicinity of Hooper Avenue in a retirement community, and enjoy a high quality of life, making frequent trips to Island Beach State Park, which might be the best beach in New Jersey.

I’ve grown up with Orthodox as neighbors, as my hometown neighborhood is walkable to the synagogue. My experience with them is that they are very shrewd, but fair, and are exceptional negotiators.

My neighbor, who was also a rabbi, did not pay property taxes because his was a religious house of instruction. But his presence attracted other orthodox families, who tore down the houses they bought, and in their place, built McMansions. So the property taxes for those lots went from roughly $10K to $30K. My hometown neighborhood block is filled with McMansions. In fact, after my mom sold, a McMansion was built in our lot. Our house had three bedrooms. Its replacement had 8.

So yes, while certain orthodox houses won’t pay property taxes, other orthodox houses more than make up for the difference. And from my experience, they were exemplary neighbors.

In any case, the average property tax bill in Toms River is 7,470, which is quite good for New Jersey.

OP should do his own due diligence.

New Jersey has the highest property tax rates in the country. Here's how much we pay

In Camden city the average property tax bill is $1,994. While in Millburn, the annual bill reached $24,947.

www.app.com

 

[koleszar]

I have yet to see a single Orthodox live in a retirement community, where op wants to live, because these aren’t places where the Orthodox can build their McMansions.

You do realize those structures are not single family, right? It's their way of getting around zoning where only single family homes are allowed. They usually have up to 4 family's living in there. You seriously didn't think one family owned 6 minivans, did you?

 

[koleszar]

What kind of loud music ?

The kind where the base thumps so loud it rumbles your house five houses away. I have no idea what it's called but apparently, it's very popular in Mexico and South America.