OT: Drawing on board expertise: Toms River for a retirement residence?

[kupuna133]

All the OP is looking for is a nice, reasonable place near the beach, and Tom’s River is as nice as any.

The theme of this thread seems to be don’t move to Tom’s River because of the Orthodox.

But I have yet to read a single tangible reason as to how the Orthodox will affect OPs quality of life should he choose to live in Toms River. I have yet to see a single Orthodox live in a retirement community, where op wants to live, because these aren’t places where the Orthodox can build their McMansions.

My friends live in the vicinity of Hooper Avenue in a retirement community, and enjoy a high quality of life, making frequent trips to Island Beach State Park, which might be the best beach in New Jersey.

I’ve grown up with Orthodox as neighbors, as my hometown neighborhood is walkable to the synagogue. My experience with them is that they are very shrewd, but fair, and are exceptional negotiators.

My neighbor, who was also a rabbi, did not pay property taxes because his was a religious house of instruction. But his presence attracted other orthodox families, who tore down the houses they bought, and in their place, built McMansions. So the property taxes for those lots went from roughly $10K to $30K. My hometown neighborhood block is filled with McMansions. In fact, after my mom sold, a McMansion was built in our lot. Our house had three bedrooms. Its replacement had 8.

So yes, while certain orthodox houses won’t pay property taxes, other orthodox houses more than make up for the difference. And from my experience, they were exemplary neighbors.

In any case, the average property tax bill in Toms River is 7,470, which is quite good for New Jersey.

OP should do his own due diligence.

New Jersey has the highest property tax rates in the country. Here's how much we pay

In Camden city the average property tax bill is $1,994. While in Millburn, the annual bill reached $24,947.

www.app.com

Orthodox have taken over many a retirement community in Tom’s river, Lakewood, brick Manchester Etc….One of the most blatant was the eagle ridge development in Lakewood multiple crimes of the white color variety and many intimidation cases and a near murder of a colleague/ business friemd of mine.

Two Years Later, Brutal Beating of Elderly Lakewood Couple Who Opposed Eagle Ridge Development Remains an Unsolved Case

LAKEWOOD, NJ - It has been almost two years since Fredrick "Rob" Robison, 66, and his wife Patricia Robison, 64, were brutally beaten in their Eagle Ridge

www.shorenewsnetwork.com

 

[RUTGERS95]

love these threads where people who have no idea what they are talking about act like experts

 

[T2Kplus20]

Candlewood is toast. They're already employing the block busting techniques of renting out to undesirables and letting the properties fall into disrepair.

The only things that have saved my area so far, it's zoned ARE2, there's no sewer or gas and wetlands everywhere. We have a bog which eventually turns into a stream that feeds the Metedeconk. It's all farms by me and I have 8 acres so no one can really get close. There's no value to the Orthodox in my area since they can't asphalt the entire place.

Even with that, I could see them screaming Antisemitism and getting a Yeshiva or Synagogue built next to me in an area zoned for Agriculture and Real Estate. Unfortunately it's what they do.

No sewer is a big help with restraining development. You can't build multi/cluster-housing on septic. Lots for single family homes need enough land to pass NJDEP regs and perc tests (which get more restrictive as time goes on).

Takes a long time to get sewer maps changed and even if they do, developers are normally on the hook for new treatment plants or expanding capacity at existing one. Lots of money!

 

[tom1944]

love these threads where people who have no idea what they are talking about act like experts

Me too.

We just think it is a different set of people who do not know what they are talking about.

There are probably 250,000 Orthodox in Monmouth/Ocean Counties. Some do bad stuff. To categorize the entire population in the same fashion is inaccurate.

People should also know that the claim that they are turning massive numbers of homes into tax exempt properties is easy to dispute. That data is available both at the town level and the State level. In fact, I believe the APP.com did a story and found the claim is exaggerated.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Tom - I think we are on a similar page.

This whole thread is pretty whacky. Naturally, people are wary of any group that wants to divert money from public education to private education and home schooling. Well...maybe not ANY group. But this group is scary.

Well...people are wary of any group that wants to game the system so tax dollars go to them while they pay minimal taxes. Except billionaires. Because they're smart.

Sarcasm aside, why is it OK for people to be comfortable showing open disdain for this small ethno-religious group? I'm not trying to be the language police but WTF. I know someone will have some lame response but HOW IS THIS EVEN AN ARGUMENT?

great example of swinging and missing but then swinging again after lobbing yourself a practice ball instead of the game ball. You should sit this one out, you really don't have a single clue about what is happening here.

 

[JayDogSmooth]

Me too.

We just think it is a different set of people who do not know what they are talking about.

There are probably 250,000 Orthodox in Monmouth/Ocean Counties. Some do bad stuff. To categorize the entire population in the same fashion is inaccurate.

People should also know that the claim that they are turning massive numbers of homes into tax exempt properties is easy to dispute. That data is available both at the town level and the State level. In fact, I believe the APP.com did a story and found the claim is exaggerated.

It’s a systemic issue
Their culture permits this - it’s disgusting and grossly problematic

There’s certainly good ones
But not enough speak out against the bad apples

Which, whether they like it or not, makes them just as responsible for the nonsense as they’re allowing it to happen

 

[JayDogSmooth]

love these threads where people who have no idea what they are talking about act like experts

I dare anyone who’s even questioning this to live next to or near these people

No one or 2
I mean a whole group

Theyll quickly see what the hype is all about - their reputation is well earned

 

[RUTGERS95]

Me too.

We just think it is a different set of people who do not know what they are talking about.

There are probably 250,000 Orthodox in Monmouth/Ocean Counties. Some do bad stuff. To categorize the entire population in the same fashion is inaccurate.

People should also know that the claim that they are turning massive numbers of homes into tax exempt properties is easy to dispute. That data is available both at the town level and the State level. In fact, I believe the APP.com did a story and found the claim is exaggerated.

no we are not on the same page as you're doing you're best to subvert that actually happenings, concerns, and real world examples of what this group is doing. It's ok to try and understand the why but NOT at the expense of reality and not ok to ignore the systemic approach and cultivation of one group's efforts to game a system that ultimately hurts communities and the taxpayer

 

[JayDogSmooth]

Or he is pretending not to have a clue. He knows what's going on.

Anyone who’s pays even a little bit of attention or does two seconds of research see what’s going on

Its criminal yet they’re allowed to continually do it - it’s truly disgusting

 

[RUTGERS95]

I dare anyone who’s even questioning this to live next to or near these people

No one or 2
I mean a whole group

Theyll quickly see what the hype is all about - their reputation is well earned

I'm with you

 

[kupuna133]

I dare anyone who’s even questioning this to live next to or near these people

No one or 2
I mean a whole group

Theyll quickly see what the hype is all about - their reputation is well earned

Yea don’t get started on their Medicaid mills, fake “kosher” degrees in the allied health space, mismanagement of rehab/ skilled nursing facilities etc…

 

[JayDogSmooth]

Yea don’t get started on their Medicaid mills, fake “kosher” degrees in the allied health space, mismanagement of rehab/ skilled nursing facilities etc…

It’s absolutely disgusting and sickening
The whole thing is a scam, and they hide behind the religion

 

[TommyGunn]

Get out of NJ. South Florida baby!

 

[Rutgers Chris]

Yea don’t get started on their Medicaid mills, fake “kosher” degrees in the allied health space, mismanagement of rehab/ skilled nursing facilities etc…

I took a few meetings with a group and did my best to talk them out of entering my area of the healthcare space in NJ. It didnt work unfortunately

 

[Kbee3]

The kind where the base thumps so loud it rumbles your house five houses away. I have no idea what it's called but apparently, it's very popular in Mexico and South America.

We get that from a few houses here in Ridgefield Park too. I usually respond loudly with my classic cd I created of Dinosaur Jr's best tunes. Sometimes it works...sometimes it doesn't.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Farmingdale is spread out? It is literally 1 mile north to south with a single traffic light.

Homes are spread out- relative to Lakewood, certainly.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Have a friend who I also tailgate with for Rutgers games over there as well by the school. He's looking to get out and move down to Manahawkin. Just 5 houses up from him, Orthodox bought and rented, now nothing but loud music at all hours and garbage everywhere. It's easy for people to take the higher ground when it's not in their backyard.

I am curious about this phenomenon. Doesn't this destroy the property? And then they come in and rehab it? Why not just move direct into the neighborhood? If I remember right what jughandle Candelwood is...I think it's Friendship Road...I guess you can't walk to Lakewood unless you are feeling intrepid?

A friend of my uncle sold their home in Jackson (a McMansion type house in good condition) direct and I don't think it was going to become a rental.

 

[Kbee3]

Get out of NJ. South Florida baby!

Never happen for us. I have a good part of my family down there. Actually, since Ian, where their area took a direct hit, they've been talking about getting out of there....and Florida altogether.
My wife hates the heat and humidity and always mentions the alligators, snakes, and flying cochroaches.
Me...I don't wanna live in a red state.

 

[kupuna133]

I took a few meetings with a group and did my best to talk them out of entering my area of the healthcare space in NJ. It don’t work unfortunately

Yep had many meetings. They don’t like playing nicely with others. And even if they refer to begin with they will soon co opt and mimic your business model.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Most know that I very much lean toward no discrimination and on the left side of things. And what I am about to say has nothing to do with these group's religion.
But in the towns they target- it is a business plan for them and they treat it like a hostile takeover. They will use their religion as a way to disrupt and cause enough havoc that long time residents would rather move then stay. They take over the school boards, they take over communities, they scam every government process that there is. They feel they can intrude on your property if their religion has rules that let them do it. They are taking mult underage wives with fake marriage licenses divorce them after pregnant so that they qualify for additional government handouts as well as affordable housing- which usually happens to be owned by their ex husbands.
Housing prices are driven down and like a hostile takeover- everything else is pushed to it's breaking point. And if anyone tries to put a halt to it- they get sued.
This is not a religion but a very powerful multi billion dollar business.

 

[koleszar]

I am curious about this phenomenon. Doesn't this destroy the property? And then they come in and rehab it? Why not just move direct into the neighborhood? If I remember right what jughandle Candelwood is...I think it's Friendship Road...I guess you can't walk to Lakewood unless you are feeling intrepid?

A friend of my uncle sold their home in Jackson (a McMansion type house in good condition) direct and I don't think it was going to become a rental.

Yes, it's a business for them. An LLC owned by an Orthodox group comes in and buys the home. It rents to undesirables and lets the property fall into disrepair. Others in the neighbor begin to sell, they buy them up until they have busted the block. Then fix them up and only sell to the Orthodox and only allow the Orthodox to look at them. It's a common practice, they move into a specific area then spread from there.

Who says some of these homes are not being converted into underground Synagogues and Yeshiva's? Hell, Howell just busted an illegal Orthodox sleep over camp in a McMansion with land only because they burned the place down.

It's actually Salem Hill Rd. which goes east of Rt 9 but that's right next to Friendship Rd. which goes west of RT9

Drive through Lakewood on an education in the McMansions they build. Someone who buys a house like that is not driving 6 beat up minivans. It's a way for them to get around zoning.

 

[tom1944]

I am curious about this phenomenon. Doesn't this destroy the property? And then they come in and rehab it? Why not just move direct into the neighborhood? If I remember right what jughandle Candelwood is...I think it's Friendship Road...I guess you can't walk to Lakewood unless you are feeling intrepid?

A friend of my uncle sold their home in Jackson (a McMansion type house in good condition) direct and I don't think it was going to become a rental.

One of my 3 Orthodox neighbors is renting his home. He expects to move in once he finishes an assignment in Toronto.

He has had 2 tenants so far both have been fine. I was unaware the first tenant even moved out until I had a package left at my house which should have gone to the neighbor. I walked it over and met the new tenants who had been there for months.

The noise in our neighborhood comes from the Albanian family who bought a home prior to the Orthodox starting to buy. The daughter films Tik Toks in the driveway.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Yes, it's a business for them. An LLC owned by an Orthodox group comes in and buys the home. It rents to undesirables and lets the property fall into disrepair. Others in the neighbor begin to sell, they buy them up until they have busted the block. Then fix them up and only sell to the Orthodox and only allow the Orthodox to look at them. It's a common practice, they move into a specific area then spread from there.

It's actually Salem Hill Rd.which goes east of Rt 9 but that's right next to Friendship Rd. which goes west of RT9

Drive through Lakewood on an education in the McMansions they build. Someone who buys a house like that is not driving 6 beat up minivans. It's a way for them to get around zoning.

I did read a piece a few years ago on the Lakewood McMansions- it is fascinating stuff. What you're describing though the town could fight if they were interested as obviously discrimination and zoning violations are illegal. I always figured block busting means the family buys to live there, at least that's how I understood what happens in Jackson and TR.

 

[NotInRHouse]

One of my 3 Orthodox neighbors is renting his home. He expects to move in once he finishes an assignment in Toronto.

He has had 2 tenants so far both have been fine. I was unaware the first tenant even moved out until I had a package left at my house which should have gone to the neighbor. I walked it over and met the new tenants who had been there for months.

Ofc renting property anywhere is a crapshoot. But what has been described- if laws are being broken- changes the dynamic.

What I had figured was...Lakewood running out of space...so we will be the first religious family to buy a home and move in on the first block over the border in Jackson, Brick etc...and so on to second, third, forth. What is being described is different.

 

[koleszar]

I did read a piece a few years ago on the Lakewood McMansions- it is fascinating stuff. What you're describing though the town could fight if they were interested as obviously discrimination and zoning violations are illegal. I always figured block busting means the family buys to live there, at least that's how I understood what happens in Jackson and TR.

Towns will fight it, but once they start screaming antisemitism it starts to get sticky. Plus, they usually outlast the towns with lawsuit after lawsuit. The LLC's and Lawyers are all part of the same Synagogue and sometimes controlled by that Synagogue. So, they can usually outlast the Town monetarily, forcing the town to settle. Remember this is all about them and those apart of their Synagogue. It's a community unto itself with no care to assimilate to those around them, the rest of the world is just in their way.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Yes, it's a business for them. An LLC owned by an Orthodox group comes in and buys the home. It rents to undesirables and lets the property fall into disrepair. Others in the neighbor begin to sell, they buy them up until they have busted the block. Then fix them up and only sell to the Orthodox and only allow the Orthodox to look at them. It's a common practice, they move into a specific area then spread from there.

Who says some of these homes are not being converted into underground Synagogues and Yeshiva's? Hell, Howell just busted an illegal Orthodox sleep over camp in a McMansion with land only because they burned the place down.

It's actually Salem Hill Rd. which goes east of Rt 9 but that's right next to Friendship Rd. which goes west of RT9

Drive through Lakewood on an education in the McMansions they build. Someone who buys a house like that is not driving 6 beat up minivans. It's a way for them to get around zoning.

Towns try to fight as long as possible, but lawsuits of religious discrimination are their SOP. Once they get enough residents in town, they vote en bloc and take over the elected body. Then it's game over. Lakewood 101. Howell and Jackson will be next to fall.

 

[miketd1]

Sort of odd-topic to where this dialogue has taken the thread but…

There are studies that show that retirees are happier the closer they are to their families, particularly grandchildren.

There is a Goldilocks rule in that too close is also uncomfortable. I would wager the sweet spot to be within 15-30 minutes by car.

Anecdotally, my parents are 45-50 minutes away and the drive to us has gotten exponentially more difficult as they age. They now need to account for things like driving at night and overall, end of day fatigue when driving.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Towns will fight it, but once they start screaming antisemitism it starts to get sticky. Plus, they usually outlast the towns with lawsuit after lawsuit. The LLC's and Lawyers are all part of the same Synagogue and sometimes controlled by that Synagogue. So, they can usually outlast the Town monetarily, forcing the town to settle. Remember this is all about them and those apart of their Synagogue. It's a community unto itself with no care to assimilate to those around them, the rest of the world is just in their way.

If you have articles on lawsuits in Howell would love to read.

 

[koleszar]

If you have articles on lawsuits in Howell would love to read.

O one just happened down the road from me on Ford Rd. cost the town and DEP over a million in legal fees. Orthodox LLC. wanted to build a Yeshiva with dorms and Warehouses on the Metedeconk watershed. They bought up the whole road overtime and rented to undesirables and let almost the entire road fall into disrepair.

They screamed antisemitism and the legal battle dragged out for 6 years. Finally, the town had enough and they got money for open space preservation. They are now in the process of tearing down all the sh*tholes. In time the same thing will happen down the road and continue to happen until the town runs out of money.

https://www.app.com/story/news/loca...1/12/15/howell-yeshiva-settlement/6506964001/

 

[NotInRHouse]

O one just happened down the road from me on Ford Rd. cost the town and DEP over a million in legal fees. Orthodox LLC. wanted to build a Yeshiva with dorms and Warehouses on the Metedeconk watershed. They bought up the whole road overtime and rented to undesirables and let almost the entire road fall into disrepair.

They screamed antisemitism and the legal battle dragged out for 6 years. Finally, the town had enough and they got money for open space preservation. They are now in the process of tearing down all the sh*tholes. In time the same thing will happen down the road and continue to happen until the town runs out of money.

https://www.app.com/story/news/loca...1/12/15/howell-yeshiva-settlement/6506964001/

Seems like they could use an open space fund in that area. Or use it to build public schools or other infrastructure.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Towns will fight it, but once they start screaming antisemitism it starts to get sticky. Plus, they usually outlast the towns with lawsuit after lawsuit. The LLC's and Lawyers are all part of the same Synagogue and sometimes controlled by that Synagogue. So, they can usually outlast the Town monetarily, forcing the town to settle. Remember this is all about them and those apart of their Synagogue. It's a community unto itself with no care to assimilate to those around them, the rest of the world is just in their way.

Town of Mahwah got crushed on this exact type of lawsuit

 

[koleszar]

Seems like they could use an open space fund in that area. Or use it to build public schools or other infrastructure.

It's going to become a park for the Orthodox and Hasidic's since they've ruined all their parks or paved over them in Lakewood.

 

[tom1944]

Ofc renting property anywhere is a crapshoot. But what has been described- if laws are being broken- changes the dynamic.

What I had figured was...Lakewood running out of space...so we will be the first religious family to buy a home and move in on the first block over the border in Jackson, Brick etc...and so on to second, third, forth. What is being described is different.

That is what happened in Jackson.

Orthodox started buying on the eastern section of Jackson and along the area off of Cross Street.

I am sure there might have been some Orthodox investors buying property but from the people I know in those areas it was mostly just families buying homes to live in.

This started about 10 years ago and the houses in the Brookwood section were the least expensive and they went up substantially in comparison to the rest of the town.
Over the last few years they have been moving to my area which is towards the north western side of town. We are entirely on septic with at least an acre.

 

[e5fdny]

You want to be first or second to sell.

Or last if you're on a cul-de-sac.

 

[T2Kplus20]

O one just happened down the road from me on Ford Rd. cost the town and DEP over a million in legal fees. Orthodox LLC. wanted to build a Yeshiva with dorms and Warehouses on the Metedeconk watershed. They bought up the whole road overtime and rented to undesirables and let almost the entire road fall into disrepair.

They screamed antisemitism and the legal battle dragged out for 6 years. Finally, the town had enough and they got money for open space preservation. They are now in the process of tearing down all the sh*tholes. In time the same thing will happen down the road and continue to happen until the town runs out of money.

https://www.app.com/story/news/loca...1/12/15/howell-yeshiva-settlement/6506964001/

Towns can't wait around, they need to aggressively preserve open space regardless of the cost. It's the only way to protect themselves from lawsuits like this or other ones from traditional developers.

Will towns eventually lose? Maybe. But every year you delay, it's another year of good quality of life for your residents.

 

[tom1944]

Town of Mahwah got crushed on this exact type of lawsuit

So did Jackson . But there was proof of antisemitism driving the actions of public officials.

 

[yesrutgers01]

It's going to become a park for the Orthodox and Hasidic's since they've ruined all their parks or paved over them in Lakewood.

I think one of the things they sued Mahwah over was their use of a park. The park in question had rules in place for decades about group gatherings- how many vehicles and out of state vehicles allowed per group, etc..,and sued for antisemitism
I think the town ended up losing well into 8 figures

 

[T2Kplus20]

I think one of the things they sued Mahwah over was their use of a park. The park in question had rules in place for decades about group gatherings- how many vehicles and out of state vehicles allowed per group, etc..,and sued for antisemitism
I think the town ended up losing well into 8 figures

Any rules that don't let them do what they want are antisemitic. It's not kosher (pun intended) to change rules in response to current actions, but long existing rules, including zoning, are legit and need to be protected.

 

[koleszar]

So did Jackson . But there was proof of antisemitism driving the actions of public officials.

Ours was not, as the area is not zoned for what they proposed. They simply decided they wanted to do whatever they want and this was their best path to making that happen as the courts always bend once antisemitism is claimed. If the town decided not to buy it, they probably would have won.

 

[retired711]

Just an FYI. The Orthodox and Hassidic are not the same. The Orthodox generally are the purchasers of the properties and have a much higher income than the Hassidic.

The Orthodox have their own set of prejudices against the Hassidic.

It is comical to hear them. It's like watching Hotel Rowanda and think why do they hate each other I cannot even tell them apart.


Also Mahwah.

I actually know a fair amount about this from extensive exposure to Orthodox Jews:

Hasidim are a subcategory of Orthodox. That is, all Hasidim are Orthodox -- they obey the same religious laws -- but not all Orthodox are Hasidim.

Believe it or not, Lakewood is not Hasidic. When modern Hasidism arose in Eastern Europe at the end of the 18th century, the traditional Jewish authorities opposed them (in large part because the Hasidim threatened their power). The large yeshiva in Lakewood is a direct descendant of the Lithuanian "Mitnaggim," the opponents of Hasidism.

The biggest problem the Orthodox of any category pose is that they do not send their kids to public school. As a result, they vote against anything that would give money to those schools. This of course means that the pubic schools there are crappy.

Here are other problems:

The Orthodox (again, of any category) do not drive on the Sabbath or on Jewish holidays. Thus they want to live close to synagogues, which means they congregate in dense pockets, and bid up the price of housing. It also means there are neighborhoods that have only Orthodox.

The Orthodox tend to have large families. (They feel they're making up for the murder of 6 million Jews in the Holocaust.) That means that a lot of houses get expanded, often in ways that are not terribly attractive.

The Orthodox also often resent neighbors who do traditional things on the Sabbath or Jewish holidays (e.g. drive cars), which of course makes for friction.

There is also a problem of observance of secular laws. The prophet Jeremiah (who told the Israelites they were going to be sent into exile, and was quite unpopular for saying that) quoted God as saying that the Israelites should pray for the welfare of the country into which he sent them into exile. An essential principle of Jewish law is "dina malkuta dina" (the law of the king -- the secular authorities -- is law.) But one doesn't always see it (remember the large weddings that went on during the worst of the pandemic). The Orthodox are not violent, but there is a certain amount of low-level white-collar crime (particularly against the secular government), which other Orthodox will not report for fear of being condemned as informers.

I apologize for the length of this post.