OT: Drawing on board expertise: Toms River for a retirement residence?

[T2Kplus20]

The denials in this thread are puzzling. Anyone who follows the news in Lakewood or Jackson would find a list of how a certain group uses their religion as a tool in lawsuits fighting existing laws and rules. It's pure chicanery. No other group pulls this type of nonsense.

Jackson sued by Orthodox Jewish family over garage renovation denial

An Orthodox Jewish family alleges discrimination after Jackson denied their plans to renovate their garage and host prayer services there.

www.yahoo.com

MSN

“SEE YOU IN COURT”: Jackson Township to Face Yet Another Federal Lawsuit Over Shul Denial

The township of Jackson is about to be slapped with yet another federal lawsuit alleging the violation of religious land use protections after the Zoning Board

lakewoodalerts.com

JUST IN: Jackson Township Signs Settlement with Jackson Trails Developer

The government of Jackson Township has signed a settlement with the builder of the proposed Jackson Trails development, a religious Jew who sued the town, claim

lakewoodalerts.com

Jackson sued over approval of Orthodox school campus

Bais Yaakov of Jackson won approval to build a three-school campus that would serve over 2,300 girls from the Jackson Orthodox Jewish community.

news.yahoo.com

Tom is trying real hard to play dumb. I guess he is terrified at criticizing anything that happened/is happening in these towns.

 

[T2Kplus20]

It should be easy to show that the non-approvals were not based on religion then. The one article says non-Jewish people are suing because something was approved only because it was requested by Orthodox. Lets see how they do in court.

People sue all the time. If they have a case hopefully they win.


By hre way the builder of my development also sues the town multiple times for denying his right to build. Jackson had been sued many times for stopping builders having nothing to do with the Orthodox. The majority of the time they lost.

See the Mitch Leigh property cases. I believe Sambol construction the owner of Meted conk Golf club also had several law suits.

 

[S.W.A.I.N]

It’s because they saw what happened in Lakewood and didn’t want the same thing to happen in Jackson

That place is ruined
Gone
Finished

Tell me any other group of people that do what they do

Yeah, the demographics and culture of say, Edison is unchanged in last 40 years right. Must be the Hasids dressed as Indians…

 

[tom1944]

Tom is trying real hard to play dumb. I guess he is terrified at criticizing anything that happened/is happening in these towns.

Do you guys even read these articles?

Read this one it is interesting.

Huge project: Jackson Twenty-One finally underway

The clearance of a large swath of land marks the beginning of Jackson Twenty-One's first phase.

www.app.com

I was at meetings where the residents wanted him to give all his land to the town for free.

 

[tom1944]

So you all think I am so wrong. Tell me what should be done if Orthodox families want to buy a home in a town and build synagogues.

No one has answered this question

 

[NotInRHouse]

Are you serious? This has to be a parody account. I know of many families that have moved out of Jackson Howell because their blocks have been block busted. block busting is still going on in Lakewood. I know of many senior communities in Lakewood that have been block busted in the last 3-5 years. Not to mention the “less desirable” areas of Lakewood that were inhabited by low income residents.

I don't think this quite the same thing...it's kind of a reverse where people are moving because of who is coming in. What you are talking about was trying to keep people out. The latter is illegal and the former is more of a social phenomenon.

 

[tom1944]

I don't think this quite the same thing...it's kind of a reverse where people are moving because of who is coming in. What you are talking about was trying to keep people out. The latter is illegal and the former is more of a social phenomenon.

That is how I look at it.

There is no need for all this bad stuff because people are moving on there own.

I just added this edit. The basis of the Orthodox lawsuits is that the town of Jackson started to pass exclusionary laws and zoning strictly to stop the Orthodox from moving in.

In all of those lawsuits they attached comments made at public meetings and private emails between the mayor and council.

 

[NotInRHouse]

@rutgersal raises a good question.

Whether he realized it or not (lol)…

Why just there (Lakewood, with the now spillover outwards)?

Bradley Beach has a community like this. Obviously not as big. Although large enough to have their own stuff like a flag football league for example. But we haven’t heard anything like this happening there.

I think a big difference is Modern Orthodox tend to have less children, relatively, so the infrastructure issues are different. Also, the men typically have jobs in the secular world and are not devoted to full time study. For example, I knew a lot of Orthodox kids at RU with ties to both Flatbush and Deal (which is likely the same as the Bradley folks). The one similarity would be the rejection of public education at K-12.

I am not sure how many non Orthodox folks are in Deal anymore but I would venture it is a negligible number in line with Lakewood. Now where it gets more interesting with Bradley is they are going to be sharing a town with some folks with let's say VERY different values lol.

 

[ru66]

We get what we vote for. I'd never leave this area due to my kids and grand children . But it's loaded with problems anywhere you live.Believe it or not if you had the money and could afford a nice doorman building in Manhattan that was a great place to retire to. They got your mail, groceries were delivered, less maintenance issues , access to great hospitals and cultural events, walk to stores and keep a car in building's garage if you needed one. Try getting the permits to build or remodell a home in Bay head. It's insane. The whole area tests your patience -- no matter how much retirement money you have.

 

[NotInRHouse]

That is BS as you are taking someone that is taking an extreme view and not just a typical liberal point of view.

The irony here as Tom mentions is that this religious community is using a very conservative bunch of laws to achieve their goals. And they have certainly been voting accordingly.

The reddest town in NJ in 2020 was Lakewood. And Deal was not far behind. OTOH, Livingston, Cherry Hill and other towns we would associate with very secular folks had very much opposite results.

I will always stick up for two things. One, the choice of people to live where they wish. And two, law and order. That these people are using the laws in ways many people don't like has an obvious solution- CHANGE THE LAW! But there is reticence IMO because those laws would be evenly applied.

For example, NJ mandates busing for all private schools beyond a certain distance. Lakewood uses that to have gender segregated busing on our tax dollars, which IMO is plainly outrageous use of tax dollars. But it's no more outrageous than my tax dollars paying for Biff from Rumson to get to the Ranney school or anyone going to a parochial school. But my gut is that many, though not all, in this thread would take umbrage if that law went bye bye.

 

[NotInRHouse]

That is how I look at it.

There is no need for all this bad stuff because people are moving on there own.

Ultimately people move in and out. Like I said, I am sure poor and lower middle class folks from Hoboken, JC or Asbury necessarily love the demographic change in their areas.

My dad grew up in what became a very Hasidic block in Brooklyn. My grandparents only left when doctors told them they couldn't walk up 4 flights of stairs anymore. It was what they could afford and what they were used to. In a free society, we can pick where we live. And if we think people break the laws, prosecute. Change laws you want changed.

 

[JayDogSmooth]

Yeah, the demographics and culture of say, Edison is unchanged in last 40 years right. Must be the Hasids dressed as Indians…

Tell me you’re not really comparing the Lakewood situation to Edison

 

[JayDogSmooth]

I think a big difference is Modern Orthodox tend to have less children, relatively, so the infrastructure issues are different. Also, the men typically have jobs in the secular world and are not devoted to full time study. For example, I knew a lot of Orthodox kids at RU with ties to both Flatbush and Deal (which is likely the same as the Bradley folks). The one similarity would be the rejection of public education at K-12.

I am not sure how many non Orthodox folks are in Deal anymore but I would venture it is a negligible number in line with Lakewood. Now where it gets more interesting with Bradley is they are going to be sharing a town with some folks with let's say VERY different values lol.

Diehl and Lakewood are two completely different scenarios

 

[NotInRHouse]

Tell me you’re not really comparing the Lakewood situation to Edison

Question for you as a big private school advocate since you raise this question.

Both Lakewood and Edison I think you would agree have gone major demographic change. Edison schools, especially JP Stevens, improved majorly over that time. Lakewood not so much.

What role, if any, should the state play? For example, in NYC, somewhere in the single digit number of yeshivas did they have students in the entire city passing an English test. That to me is a big problem since they do get some taxpayer support. However, many private school advocates pushed back on the state stepping into scrutinize and restrict funds. Their reason being slippery slope- that would extend to all religious schools of course.

Should NJ look into this?

 

[e5fdny]

I think a big difference is Modern Orthodox tend to have less children, relatively, so the infrastructure issues are different. Also, the men typically have jobs in the secular world and are not devoted to full time study. For example, I knew a lot of Orthodox kids at RU with ties to both Flatbush and Deal (which is likely the same as the Bradley folks). The one similarity would be the rejection of public education at K-12.

I am not sure how many non Orthodox folks are in Deal anymore but I would venture it is a negligible number in line with Lakewood. Now where it gets more interesting with Bradley is they are going to be sharing a town with some folks with let's say VERY different values lol.

My Mom will be 91 this month.

The group in Bradley Beach has been there since she was college age. Probably even before that.

So I’m not sure what you mean by the bold?

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

Question for you as a big private school advocate since you raise this question.

Both Lakewood and Edison I think you would agree have gone major demographic change. Edison schools, especially JP Stevens, improved majorly over that time. Lakewood not so much.

What role, if any, should the state play? For example, in NYC, somewhere in the single digit number of yeshivas did they have students in the entire city passing an English test. That to me is a big problem since they do get some taxpayer support. However, many private school advocates pushed back on the state stepping into scrutinize and restrict funds. Their reason being slippery slope- that would extend to all religious schools of course.

Should NJ look into this?

I'd think it would depend on the amount each school was getting
Certainly single digit passing of English is terrible
Vis a vis Catholic school I'd assume it's in the 90 % range

 

[rcube1994]

I just dont see my 3 new neighbors and soon to be 2 more as part of a great conspiracy to take over Jackson. I see them as families who wanted to buy homes and so they did.

They will never vote or see things the way I do.

Sounds like somebody that waited too long to sell, and is now trying very hard to convince himself that all is good.

 

[kupuna133]

I don't think this quite the same thing...it's kind of a reverse where people are moving because of who is coming in. What you are talking about was trying to keep people out. The latter is illegal and the former is more of a social phenomenon.

Not at all.

 

[kupuna133]

My Mom will be 91 this month.

The group in Bradley Beach has been there since she was college age. Probably even before that.

So I’m not sure what you mean by the bold?

He doesn’t know that the Deal sect started in Bradley before they branched out into Deal. Friendly with the Lowy family that used to move the families from Brooklyn to Bradley in the summer before they were able to secure larger properties in Deal.

 

[tom1944]

Sounds like somebody that waited too long to sell, and is now trying very hard to convince himself that all is good.

Does it?

My wife told me years ago way prior to the Orthodox coming here that we are never moving. She loves her acre plus property and plans to die here.

I would have moved long ago. Having nothing to do with the Orthodox and everything to do with hating yard work.

Oh and if I did not sell fast enough my neighbor with my same house just went under contract for around $1 million in one day.

 

[newell138]

Reading Tom's responses

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

Does it?

My wife told me years ago way prior to the Orthodox coming here that we are never moving. She loves her acre plus property and plans to die here.

I would have moved long ago.

Oh and if I did not sell fast enough my neighbor with my same house just went under contract for around $1 million in one day.

It's Jackson man

Not Colts Neck
Not Holmdel
Not Readington

Jackson

If you can get 1 mil for your place, and don't sell, regardless of what your wife says or wants... you're a better man than me

 

[tom1944]

It's Jackson man

Not Colts Neck
Not Holmdel
Not Readington

Jackson

If you can get 1 mil for your place, and don't sell, regardless of what your wife says or wants... you're a better man than me

I married up.

Add to that I am easy going and have more than enough money for my needs.

I would have never bought in Jackson. I had a home in Westfield already to go.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Reading Tom's responses

Tom =

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

I married up.

Add to that I am easy going and have more than enough money for my needs.

I would have never bought in Jackson. I had a home in Westfield already to go.

That's a good problem to have!

 

[nukem]

No one has answered this question

How come you never responded to all of the problems concerning the board of education having to borrow in the 100's of millions of dollars from the state?

 

[tom1944]

Tom =

Come on T show some empathy.

I have 3 experiences with minorities moving into an area.

I grew up in Colonia and worked at Hilltop liquors in Iselin when the Indian community started to move in and buy Oak Tree Road properties. At the time Oak Tree Road was a sh1t hole of rundown and vacant buildings. As a kid I would see functional alcoholics who lived-in run-down houses make constant derogatory remarks about Indians and how they are ruining the town.

I later purchased a duplex in a lower income area of Woodbridge walkable to the train station. When I sold it, the buyer was a college educated couple. A Columbian husband and his wife from Belize. I also subdivided a side lot which had been rezoned to be too small to build on even though every house on the block was smaller than that lot. My attorney said they will definitely have to let you sell it as a buildable lot, but it should be a 1 family instead of a 2 family- even though over half the houses on the street were 2 families or more. If I went to court they would have had to allow the multifamily, but it would have cost me too much. That house was sold to a builder who built a nice one family (nicer than any home on the block) which he sold to an Indian family. The husband and wife were highly educated, and both worked in the pharmaceutical industry.
We stayed in our house while our new home in Jackson was being built. We were in the neighborhood when the Columbian and Indian family moved in. The racist nonsense that many people on street spewed was disgusting. One guy was a supposed truck driver, but he never left his porch while getting drunk every day. He made a comment to me about selling to guess the words and about how it hurts the neighborhood. I said sure everyone would rather have drunk truck drivers than highly educated married couples living on the street.

Now about that Jackson. I attended the meeting about the Orthodox seeking to build schools and anyone who denies that there was not disgusting antisemitism from the crowd and that the politicians were going to pass discriminatory statutes to attempt to keep the Orthodox out are lying to themselves.

 

[tom1944]

How come you never responded to all of the problems concerning the board of education having to borrow in the 100's of millions of dollars from the state?

Here is my position. If I was a teacher I would leave the district. Here is the reality Jackson citizens have never voted to pass a school budget. The Orthodox are no different. The big difference is the Orthodox will run for the school board and make decisions that really impact the education budget.
I do not like it but there is nothing illegal about it. It is policies I do not agree with.

The major impact is the requirement to pay for private school busing. That is not unique to the Orthodox. I will see if I can find the articles when Edison and Woodbridge Catholic schools had a dispute about busing with the public schools. The difference is the Orthodox are basically in one area while the Catholics are spread to every town in the state. Do you think there is more public money spent in NJ on Orthodox or Christian/Catholic student busing?

Greedy Catholics

Catholic school group wants N.J. public schools to provide more money for private busing costs

The request from the New Jersey Catholic Conference is drawing objections from the New Jersey School Boards Association.

www.nj.com

 

[T2Kplus20]

Come on T show some empathy.

I have 3 experiences with minorities moving into an area.

I grew up in Colonia and worked at Hilltop liquors in Iselin when the Indian community started to move in and buy Oak Tree Road properties. At the time Oak Tree Road was a sh1t hole of rundown and vacant buildings. As a kid I would see functional alcoholics who lived-in run-down houses make constant derogatory remarks about Indians and how they are ruining the town.

I later purchased a duplex in a lower income area of Woodbridge walkable to the train station. When I sold it, the buyer was a college educated couple. A Columbian husband and his wife from Belize. I also subdivided a side lot which had been rezoned to be too small to build on even though every house on the block was smaller than that lot. My attorney said they will definitely have to let you sell it as a buildable lot, but it should be a 1 family instead of a 2 family- even though over half the houses on the street were 2 families or more. If I went to court they would have had to allow the multifamily, but it would have cost me too much. That house was sold to a builder who built a nice one family (nicer than any home on the block) which he sold to an Indian family. The husband and wife were highly educated, and both worked in the pharmaceutical industry.
We stayed in our house while our new home in Jackson was being built. We were in the neighborhood when the Columbian and Indian family moved in. The racist nonsense that many people on street spewed was disgusting. One guy was a supposed truck driver, but he never left his porch while getting drunk every day. He made a comment to me about selling to guess the words and about how it hurts the neighborhood. I said sure everyone would rather have drunk truck drivers than highly educated married couples living on the street.

Now about that Jackson. I attended the meeting about the Orthodox seeking to build schools and anyone who denies that there was not disgusting antisemitism from the crowd and that the politicians were going to pass discriminatory statutes to attempt to keep the Orthodox out are lying to themselves.

Stop trolling and then we can chat. Until then, I will keep mocking you in this thread, but only this thread since I'm a nice guy! :)

 

[tom1944]

Here is the data I found with a cursory search.

In 1980 there were 190,800 Catholic students. In 2015 there were 83,000. That is still more than double what Lakewood had in 2015-see below.

The difference is the cost is carried by one town for one group and divided by 500 plus towns for the other.

Lakewood has more than 6,300 students registered in its public schools and another 30,000 mostly Orthodox Jewish students enrolled in the town's 130 private schools. Under state law, towns must fund buses for students attending private schools more than two miles from their houses.


In the upcoming school year, Lakewood expects to spend $27 million on busing alone, more than it spends on classroom instruction, according to the school budget.


Town leaders say Lakewood is severely underfunded by the state, which does not consider the busing of large numbers of private school students when calculating how much state aid the district receives. A permanent source of school funding for busing and special ed would ease many of the town's problems, said Rabbi Aaron Kotler, one of the leaders of the Orthodox Jewish community.

 

[tom1944]

Stop trolling and then we can chat. Until then, I will keep mocking you in this thread, but only this thread since I'm a nice guy! :)

T I never care if anyone mocks me. I don't pay attention to it.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Here is the data I found with a cursory search.

In 1980 there were 190,800 Catholic students. In 2015 there were 83,000. That is still more than double what Lakewood had in 2015-see below.

The difference is the cost is carried by one town for one group and divided by 500 plus towns for the other.

Lakewood has more than 6,300 students registered in its public schools and another 30,000 mostly Orthodox Jewish students enrolled in the town's 130 private schools. Under state law, towns must fund buses for students attending private schools more than two miles from their houses.


In the upcoming school year, Lakewood expects to spend $27 million on busing alone, more than it spends on classroom instruction, according to the school budget.


Town leaders say Lakewood is severely underfunded by the state, which does not consider the busing of large numbers of private school students when calculating how much state aid the district receives. A permanent source of school funding for busing and special ed would ease many of the town's problems, said Rabbi Aaron Kotler, one of the leaders of the Orthodox Jewish community.

 

[T2Kplus20]

T I never care if anyone mocks me. I don't pay attention to it.

Thanks for paying attention and replying to me mocking you.
LOL.

 

[kupuna133]

Here is the data I found with a cursory search.

In 1980 there were 190,800 Catholic students. In 2015 there were 83,000. That is still more than double what Lakewood had in 2015-see below.

The difference is the cost is carried by one town for one group and divided by 500 plus towns for the other.

Lakewood has more than 6,300 students registered in its public schools and another 30,000 mostly Orthodox Jewish students enrolled in the town's 130 private schools. Under state law, towns must fund buses for students attending private schools more than two miles from their houses.


In the upcoming school year, Lakewood expects to spend $27 million on busing alone, more than it spends on classroom instruction, according to the school budget.


Town leaders say Lakewood is severely underfunded by the state, which does not consider the busing of large numbers of private school students when calculating how much state aid the district receives. A permanent source of school funding for busing and special ed would ease many of the town's problems, said Rabbi Aaron Kotler, one of the leaders of the Orthodox Jewish community.

Your 2015 numbers are grossly out of date.

The numbers have doubled since then with 60k students attending Yeshiva in Lakewood alone. And the estimates are they will double again within 2-3 years. So keep thinking there isn’t a problem.

Lakewood is NJ's fastest growing, but its neighbors are catching up. See the numbers

Lakewood is the state's fastest growing municipality, but towns like Brick, Jackson and Toms River are catching up.

www.app.com

 

[T2Kplus20]

Your 2015 numbers are grossly out of date.

The numbers have doubled since then with 60k students attending Yeshiva in Lakewood alone. And the estimates are they will double again within 2-3 years. So keep thinking there isn’t a problem.

Lakewood is NJ's fastest growing, but its neighbors are catching up. See the numbers

Lakewood is the state's fastest growing municipality, but towns like Brick, Jackson and Toms River are catching up.

www.app.com

And Troll Tom is trying to compare catholic students across the entire state to Yeshiva students one town. LOL!

Tom =

 

[tom1944]

Your 2015 numbers are grossly out of date.

The numbers have doubled since then with 60k students attending Yeshiva in Lakewood alone. And the estimates are they will double again within 2-3 years. So keep thinking there isn’t a problem.

Lakewood is NJ's fastest growing, but its neighbors are catching up. See the numbers

Lakewood is the state's fastest growing municipality, but towns like Brick, Jackson and Toms River are catching up.

www.app.com

Where did I say busing students is not a problem?

And I said I did a quick cursory search.

 

[kupuna133]

And Troll Tom is trying to compare catholic students across the entire state to Yeshiva students one town. LOL!

Tom =

He also doesn’t realize that the orthodox students can’t share busses. Separate bussing for girls and boys and further broken down by age. Creating a traffic nightmare with as many as 4 busses entering the same street at the same time. 2 busses for boys and 2 for girls pretty much going to the same location.

 

[tom1944]

And Troll Tom is trying to compare catholic students across the entire state to Yeshiva students one town. LOL!

Tom =

You are correct T the State should make the Orthodox move to every town in the State so we can divide their student population the same way the Catholics do.

Great idea.

 

[tom1944]

He also doesn’t realize that the orthodox students can’t share busses. Separate bussing for girls and boys and further broken down by age. Creating a traffic nightmare with as many as 4 busses entering the same street at the same time. 2 busses for boys and 2 for girls pretty much going to the same location.

No, I realize that. Tell Sam Alito and Clarence Thomas we should make the Orthodox not adhere to tenets of their faith. I am fine with that.

 

[kupuna133]

No, I realize that. Tell Sam Alito and Clarence Thomas we should make the Orthodox not adhere to tenets of their faith. I am fine with that.

So the kids can sit at the same dinner table and attend the same social gatherings but cant ride a bus together? Got it. I am all for religious freedom but I am all for doing the right thing for the better good of society. But I love how you don't respond to posts where your gaslighting is proven incorrect.