OT: Electric vehicles

[Caliknight]

Maybe you should read my situation again. I never drive more than 200 miles at a time and I would always be fully charged via over night charging at my home and/or work.

None of that applies to me.

Then why don't you have an EV?

My CFO ironically just got his second one delivered yesterday. Covid built Tesla's are shit.

Btw, I hope you like having your insurance 2 or 3x more. Any savings you get on gas is offset by much higher insurance. If you get in an accident in an EV it's more than likely totaled.

 

[RUBlackout7]

Then why don't you have an EV?

My CFO ironically just got his second one delivered yesterday. Covid built Tesla's are shit.

Btw, I hope you like having your insurance 2 or 3x more. Any savings you get on gas is offset by much higher insurance. If you get in an accident in an EV it's more than likely totaled.

I’m in the market for one. Looking to make the move soon, hence why I’m in this thread. Already got a quote from insurance, no increase but thanks for asking. Awesome post, great insight 👍👍👍

 

[Caliknight]

I’m in the market for one. Looking to make the move soon, hence why I’m in this thread. Already got a quote from insurance, no increase but thanks for asking. Awesome post, great insight 👍👍👍

No offense, but I don't believe you on the insurance. We insure 4 of them at my company. All went up significantly.

 

[Caliknight]

"Since insurance premiums are often overlooked by buyers during the beginning stages of buying a car, Money Geek conducted a study to do some of the leg work for them. As a result, they found that electric vehicles carry a higher premium over their gasoline counterparts – by as much $1,300 to over $3,500 per year."

Electric Vehicles vs Gas Vehicles: Which One Costs More to Insure?

Electric vehicles can save you money on gas and maintenance. But they are also more expensive to insure than their gas counterparts.

www.motorbiscuit.com

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Then why don't you have an EV?

My CFO ironically just got his second one delivered yesterday. Covid built Tesla's are shit.

Btw, I hope you like having your insurance 2 or 3x more. Any savings you get on gas is offset by much higher insurance. If you get in an accident in an EV it's more than likely totaled.

Why do you need to lie? EV insurance isn't 2 or 3x ICE insurance.

Still waiting on evidence that California is suffering through brownouts because of lib policies. Maybe you watched it RT or OAN?

 

[RUBlackout7]

No offense, but I don't believe you on the insurance. We insure 4 of them at my company. All went up significantly.

Sucks to be you.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

"Since insurance premiums are often overlooked by buyers during the beginning stages of buying a car, Money Geek conducted a study to do some of the leg work for them. As a result, they found that electric vehicles carry a higher premium over their gasoline counterparts – by as much $1,300 to over $3,500 per year."

Electric Vehicles vs Gas Vehicles: Which One Costs More to Insure?

Electric vehicles can save you money on gas and maintenance. But they are also more expensive to insure than their gas counterparts.

www.motorbiscuit.com

Oh wow, Brandon. Some actual data.

In a previous post you wrote: Btw, I hope you like having your insurance 2 or 3x more. Any savings you get on gas is offset by much higher insurance. If you get in an accident in an EV it's more than likely totaled.

This is hardly 2 or 3x more. Your arguments would be helped by simply stopping lying.

 

[tom1944]

No offense, but I don't believe you on the insurance. We insure 4 of them at my company. All went up significantly.

That is interesting

I am going to call my insurance company to see how they treat EVs

 

[Caliknight]

That is interesting

I am going to call my insurance company to see how they treat EVs

Unless it's a Ca thing for some reason, I can't imagine yours won't go up too. The data is all out there. This isn't an unknown in any way.

 

[tom1944]

Oh wow, Brandon. Some actual data.

In a previous post you wrote: Btw, I hope you like having your insurance 2 or 3x more. Any savings you get on gas is offset by much higher insurance. If you get in an accident in an EV it's more than likely totaled.

This is hardly 2 or 3x more. Your arguments would be helped by simply stopping lying.

Would an increase in how many EVs are on the road possible level this off since insurance is based on a pool of customers. Smaller pools are usually higher costs

 

[Caliknight]

Would an increase in how many EVs are on the road possible level this off since insurance is based on a pool of customers. Smaller pools are usually higher costs

Ca. has the highest number of EV's. By far.

It's certainly hasn't been getting cheaper. Not out here.

 

[tom1944]

Unless it's a Ca thing for some reason, I can't imagine yours won't go up too. The data is all out there. This isn't an unknown in any way.

It is something I did not think about but it has to go into the comparison.

I got a surprise when I bought a car from Enterprise (I always buy from a rental agency for cars I use for work) since the one I bought was a rental unlike a fleet I was not aware my insurance charges higher rates.

This is the first time that happened. I have purchased 5 cars -1 was for my kid when she first got her license- from car rental agencies and always used them 10 years or more

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Would an increase in how many EVs are on the road possible level this off since insurance is based on a pool of customers. Smaller pools are usually higher costs

That's a good point about the pool of vehicles, but I'm not sure about this. I'm wondering if the differences are due to the value of the cars. The Volvo EV starts @ $55,000, while the ICE version starts at $36,000.

 

[Caliknight]

My understanding is because when an EV gets in an accident, they are likely to be totaled, unlike gas powered cars. Specifically I am talking about Tesla's. Those are my entire EV experience.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

That's a good point about the pool of vehicles, but I'm not sure about this. I'm wondering if the differences are due to the value of the cars. The Volvo EV starts @ $55,000, while the ICE version starts at $36,000.

I've pretty much convinced myself the insurance rate differences are based on the cost of the car.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/compare?trims=14671-421634_14670-421672

 

[tom1944]

That's a good point about the pool of vehicles, but I'm not sure about this. I'm wondering if the differences are due to the value of the cars. The Volvo EV starts @ $55,000, while the ICE version starts at $36,000.

That would be the major reason.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

There are a couple of contradictory pieces of info available on the web - an EV is probably more expensive to repair. (One reason is that there is a smaller pool of auto repairmen with the skills to repair EVs.) OTOH, EV owners are less likely to get into an accident. (This may be due to superior safety features and regenerative braking.)

Electric vs ICE Vehicles: Unpacking Repair Cost Impacts | CCCIS | CCC Intelligent Solutions

cccis.com

Tesla owners are 50% less likely to crash their EV than their other cars

Tesla owners who also drive another vehicle are 50% less likely to have an accident in their Tesla compared to...

electrek.co

 

[theRU]

You clearly don’t own an electric car. We do.

Do you always plan your trip around where to get gas and have to wait to get it? How many charging stations are there in NJ? How long do you think it takes to charge a battery and how many miles do you think you’d get in cold weather?

It's a transitional period... The same things were said when we shifted from horse to gas. " You will need to plan your trips around gas stations! Omg!"

Fats forward and it was the right thing to do.

I think evs can be the same thing for a few logical reasons.

1. Easier to focus on clean energy generation/emissions at fewer points
( hundreds or thousands of energy plants vs billions of small i.c.e.s that need complex tech to improve efficiency and reduce emissions.)
1.b also easier to put panels over parkings lots, big box storage and leverage the sun

2. Easier to solve for battery recycling to close loop the system than anything to do with fossil fuels.

I'm convinced tech will continue to evolve and this is the way to a sustainable future. Always better to manage fewer touch points.

 

[tom1944]

It's a transitional period... The same things were said when we shifted from horse to gas. " You will need to plan your trips around gas stations! Omg!"

Fats forward and it was the right thing to do.

I think evs can be the same thing for a few logical reasons.

1. Easier to focus on clean energy generation/emissions at fewer points
( hundreds or thousands of energy plants vs billions of small i.c.e.s that need complex tech to improve efficiency and reduce emissions.)
1.b also easier to put panels over parkings lots, big box storage and leverage the sun

2. Easier to solve for battery recycling to close loop the system than anything to do with fossil fuels.

I'm convinced tech will continue to evolve and this is the way to a sustainable future. Always better to manage fewer touch points.

I wonder if the price of horses dropped substantially as cars became more popular

I would like an EV but since cars do not mean much to me I am unwilling to pay any substantial premium to buy one

 

[Rutgers Chris]

There are a couple of contradictory pieces of info available on the web - an EV is probably more expensive to repair. (One reason is that there is a smaller pool of auto repairmen with the skills to repair EVs.) OTOH, EV owners are less likely to get into an accident. (This may be due to superior safety features and regenerative braking.)

Electric vs ICE Vehicles: Unpacking Repair Cost Impacts | CCCIS | CCC Intelligent Solutions

cccis.com

Tesla owners are 50% less likely to crash their EV than their other cars

Tesla owners who also drive another vehicle are 50% less likely to have an accident in their Tesla compared to...

electrek.co

I pay more to insure my wife’s pathfinder than I do my Tesla.

 

[sdwcpa]

My insurance experience with the Volvo xc 60 recharge a PHEV was interesting
I was debating between the Volvo and the Tesla model Y. The insurance on the a
Tesla was almost 3500 per year( I live in South Florida) The insurance on the Volvo is 1300 per year actually less than the 1400 that I am paying for my 4 year old Kia Sorrento ICE even though the Volvo cost 61k vs the Kia 41k ( when it was brand new)

 

[Caliknight]

It's a transitional period... The same things were said when we shifted from horse to gas. " You will need to plan your trips around gas stations! Omg!"

Fats forward and it was the right thing to do.

I think evs can be the same thing for a few logical reasons.

1. Easier to focus on clean energy generation/emissions at fewer points
( hundreds or thousands of energy plants vs billions of small i.c.e.s that need complex tech to improve efficiency and reduce emissions.)
1.b also easier to put panels over parkings lots, big box storage and leverage the sun

2. Easier to solve for battery recycling to close loop the system than anything to do with fossil fuels.

I'm convinced tech will continue to evolve and this is the way to a sustainable future. Always better to manage fewer touch points.

The only thing transitioning is Americas independence and the massive oil areas we have untapped, and are making China even more powerful. Who do you guys think owns all of the mines that nickel and lithium come from? Forget the fact that pulling that stuff out of the earth is an environmental nightmare, And it is. Anyone that thinks otherwise is either highly uninformed or lying ton themselves, and it’s not even having the desired effect of independence. We will be even more beholden to China than we already are.

 

[goru1869]

The only thing transitioning is Americas independence and the massive oil areas we have untapped, and are making China even more powerful. Who do you guys think owns all of the mines that nickel and lithium come from? Forget the fact that pulling that stuff out of the earth is an environmental nightmare, And it is. Anyone that thinks otherwise is either highly uninformed or lying ton themselves, and it’s not even having the desired effect of independence. We will be even more beholden to China than we already are.

100% correct! Well said!

 

[RUBlackout7]

The only thing transitioning is Americas independence and the massive oil areas we have untapped, and are making China even more powerful. Who do you guys think owns all of the mines that nickel and lithium come from? Forget the fact that pulling that stuff out of the earth is an environmental nightmare, And it is. Anyone that thinks otherwise is either highly uninformed or lying ton themselves, and it’s not even having the desired effect of independence. We will be even more beholden to China than we already are.

Nobody cares. Get a hobby and go away.

 

[theRU]

The only thing transitioning is Americas independence and the massive oil areas we have untapped, and are making China even more powerful. Who do you guys think owns all of the mines that nickel and lithium come from? Forget the fact that pulling that stuff out of the earth is an environmental nightmare, And it is. Anyone that thinks otherwise is either highly uninformed or lying ton themselves, and it’s not even having the desired effect of independence. We will be even more beholden to China than we already are.

I don't think it's true because we haven't explored everywhere yet - the pendulum has swung in terms of known oil reserves many times as exploration and new technologies develop.
Here's the thing... Oil will run out... It's inevitable. You can debate when or if we'll be here, but it'll run out.

There are also many companies which have technology that reprocesses used battery materials which allows them to be reused.

Seems like a no brainer in terms of efficiency.

 

[Knight Shift]

Interesting. Tesla fanboys in the comments taking shots at the Lightning. Newsflash- Ford was not going to make a Tesla. Even the reviewer said he personally prefers more touchscreen functions and less buttons. But guess what- a lot of people hate touch screens in cars. Personal preference. It's a reason we eliminated the small Hyundai pick up vehicle.

 

[Caliknight]

I don't think it's true because we haven't explored everywhere yet - the pendulum has swung in terms of known oil reserves many times as exploration and new technologies develop.
Here's the thing... Oil will run out... It's inevitable. You can debate when or if we'll be here, but it'll run out.

There are also many companies which have technology that reprocesses used battery materials which allows them to be reused.

Seems like a no brainer in terms of efficiency.

Facts as we know them today. Oil will run out. Sometime in roughly 250-350 years at our current consumption. And that's known oil within the United States.

China owns 90% of global nickel and lithium mines.

Neither of these two things are disputable. They are both facts as we know them.

 

[Caliknight]

Nobody cares. Get a hobby and go away.

You care. You keep responding, Nob. I like how everything you thought you understood is wrong.

 

[theRU]

Facts as we know them today. Oil will run out. Sometime in roughly 250-350 years at our current consumption. And that's known oil within the United States.

China owns 90% of global nickel and lithium mines.

Neither of these two things are disputable. They are both facts as we know them.

Actually these are facts:

Global nickel reserves by country 2023 | Statista

Indonesia and Australia had the largest nickel reserves in the world as of 2023, which amounted to a combined 79 million metric tons of the base metal.

www.statista.com

 

[theRU]

Facts as we know them today. Oil will run out. Sometime in roughly 250-350 years at our current consumption. And that's known oil within the United States.

China owns 90% of global nickel and lithium mines.

Neither of these two things are disputable. They are both facts as we know them.œ

And more facts on production and reserves

Lithium facts

www.nrcan.gc.ca

 

[lne001]

China owns 90% of global nickel and lithium mines.

Neither of these two things are disputable. They are both facts as we know them.

Are you just making this shit up?

World nickel reserves -

Indonesia 21 million tons
Australia 20 " "
Brazil 16 " "
Russia 6.9 " "
Cuba 5.5 " "
Phillipines 4.8 " "

China 2.9 " "

 

[Caliknight]

And more facts on production and reserves

Lithium facts

www.nrcan.gc.ca

When I say China owns the mines, you realize they aren't in China right?

From your own link, Canada is bragging about having lithium. Yet they aren't mining it. And likely never will. Why? Because it's an environmental nightmare to do so. Far more difficult to pull from the earth than crude oil.

 

[Caliknight]

Are you just making this shit up?

World nickel reserves -

Indonesia 21 million tons
Australia 20 " "
Brazil 16 " "
Russia 6.9 " "
Cuba 5.5 " "
Phillipines 4.8 " "

China 2.9 " "

Are you guys this stupid? China owns the mines. The mines aren't in China.

Geezus did you guys actually go to college?

 

[Caliknight]

China has only 1 percent of the world’s cobalt reserves, but it dominates in the processing of raw cobalt. The Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) is the source of over two-thirds of global cobalt production, but China has over 80 percent control of the cobalt refining industry, where raw material is turned into commercial-grade cobalt metal. Furthermore, China owns eight of the 14 largest cobalt mines in the Democratic Republic of Congo and they account for about half of the country’s output. An American company once owned the largest DRC mine, but sold it in 2016 to China Molybdenum.

China is among the five top countries with the most lithium resources and it has been buying stakes in mining operations in Australia and South America where most of the world’s lithium reserves are found. China’s Tianqi Lithium owns 51 percent of the world’s largest lithium reserve in Australia. In 2018, the company became the second-largest shareholder in Sociedad Química y Minera—the largest lithium producer in Chile. Another Chinese company, Ganfeng Lithium, has a long-term agreement to underwrite all lithium raw materials produced by Australia’s Mount Marion mine—the world’s second-biggest, high-grade lithium reserve.

China Dominates the Global Lithium Battery Market

After years of planning, China now dominates the world’s production of new generation batteries that are used in electric vehicles and most portable…

www.instituteforenergyresearch.org

 

[Caliknight]

As an a side, what China has been able to acquire in Australia, specifically Western Australia as it relates to mining, is criminal. They started acquiring mines in the 1990's and have been buying everything of value ever since.

Same thing in numerous parts of Africa. Which is especially dangerous because there are little to zero environmental regulations there. Like Australia, their environments are being severely affected pulling this shit out of the earth. The amount of water it takes to mine these minerals is insane. For a dry place like Western Australia, that's a massive issue.

 

[theRU]

When I say China owns the mines, you realize they aren't in China right?

From your own link, Canada is bragging about having lithium. Yet they aren't mining it. And likely never will. Why? Because it's an environmental nightmare to do so. Far more difficult to pull from the earth than crude oil.

Sorry Cali - we've always been respectful to one another so don't start this shit with me.

Your arguments are easy to pick apart.. so we shouldn't go into evs because china owns the mines? Well maybe we should buy them? Maybe Exxon should diversify? Thats not an argument.

The fact they are ahead of us in this game of the future is what should actually be alarming to you

 

[Caliknight]

They aren't ahead. They own it. I picked your argument a part. You are advocating for an unfriendly environmental option that is making an American enemy more powerful. Kinda blows the argument out of the water as to why to do it in the first place.

Trading Saudi oil for Chinese owned lithium. Not really a win.

Maybe we should buy them lol. That easy huh? Why would you sell something that you know someone is racing towards needing for eternity? China plays the long game. And this is playing right into their hands. Good for them. They saw the play and are dominating the game.

 

[RUBlackout7]

They aren't ahead. They own it. I picked your argument a part. You are advocating for an unfriendly environmental option that is making an American enemy more powerful. Kinda blows the argument out of the water as to why to do it in the first place.

Trading Saudi oil for Chinese owned lithium. Not really a win.

Maybe we should buy them lol. That easy huh? Why would you sell something that you know someone is racing towards needing for eternity? China plays the long game. And this is playing right into their hands. Good for them. They saw the play and are dominating the game.

Half the people in here don’t even really care about the environmental aspect of EVs. If you want to drone on and on about mines, start your own thread somewhere else.

 

[Knight Shift]

Facts as we know them today. Oil will run out. Sometime in roughly 250-350 years at our current consumption. And that's known oil within the United States.

China owns 90% of global nickel and lithium mines.

Neither of these two things are disputable. They are both facts as we know them.

It would be nice if you provided backup to your facts, some of which are wrong.

Oil is projected to run out in closer to 50 years.

When will fossil fuels run out?

When will fossil fuels run out and how will countries prepare for this situation? Natural gas, coal, and oil reserves will be empty by 2060.

group.met.com

Australia and Chile are ahead of China in lithium mines. However, China currently produces the greatest amount of battery grade lithium.

Nickel will eventually be phased out. But on mines, China is far behind Indonesia, Australia, Brazil and Russia.


www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2020/03/lithium-mining-what-you-should-know-about-the-contentious-issue.html

Global nickel reserves by country 2023 | Statista

Indonesia and Australia had the largest nickel reserves in the world as of 2023, which amounted to a combined 79 million metric tons of the base metal.

www.statista.com

 

[lne001]

Are you guys this stupid? China owns the mines. The mines aren't in China.

Geezus did you guys actually go to college?

More shit. Stick to the lacrosse board.

Unfortunately we both seem to have graduated from the same college. Did you play lacrosse without a helmet?

10 largest nickel companies in the world -

1. Nornickel Russia Owned by Vladimir Potanin and a Russian investment firm Rusal
2. Vale Brazil Owned by Sherwin Williams and the government of Brazil
3. Glencore Owned by Qatar Holding and Ivan Glasenberg
4. BHP Australia Owned by 10+ investment firms, none Chinese
5. Anglo-American Brazil Owned by Anil Agarwal (20%)
6. South32 Australia Owned by multiple investment firms, top 5 not Chinese
7. Igo Australia Owned by Yandahl, T Rowe and Fidelity
8. Eramet France EU investment consortium
9. Terrafame Finland Privately held
10. MCC-JJJ Mining China