OT: Francesca makes the left column on Drudge with SI soccer rant

[mildone]

Soccer is, IMO, among the top two most beautiful and exciting games to watch, when it's played properly by the best players in the world. Ultimate (Frisbee), played at the Nationals or Easterns level, is maybe even better.

There's an artistry and grace and flow to both sports that is hard to match in most other sports, IMO. Basketball has elements of it, as does hockey and lacrosse, but teamwork is part of the artistry and in basketball, there are fewer people interacting than soccer (or Ultimate, by a couple people per side).

Like all sports though, one's enjoyment usually increases greatly the more a person understands about the strategies and tactics and skills involved.

I do not like (and mostly cannot watch) MLS games. But I do recognize that they've improved and will continue to improve. If MLS is irrelevant in this country today, an arguable assertion, they will not remain so for very long. And in any event, the event Francesca is mocking has nothing to do with MLS games.

 

[Proud NJ Sports Fan]

MLS is lame, so are the puppet fans and their scripted chants, songs and reactions.

3rd world hooliganism coming to a stadium near you

 

[NotInRHouse]

Fatcessa is typical of the baseball blowhards in this part of the country.

It simply torturous to his ilk that people care more about college football or soccer than what Vinny from Howard Beach has to say about the Mets are handling second base.

MLS does not tell the story, many Americans follow foreign clubs and other nation's teams.

The demographic shifts in both increased number of Hispanics and the millenials and the following generation not willing to give 4 hours to watch a baseball game portend poorly for him.

That and obesity.

 

[mildone]

MLS is lame, so are the puppet fans and their scripted chants, songs and reactions.

3rd world hooliganism coming to a stadium near you

It's okay. I tend to ignorantly insult things I don't understand too. An unfortunate part of human nature I've failed to completely evolve from. Maybe you'll get there before me and can help me along?

 

[RUChoppin]

The numbers EPL, UEFA, EUROPA, Bundesliga, and La Liga put up in addition to MLS DWARFS HOCKEY.

This is where it gets more difficult to examine. When one says "football", we're really talking about a single professional league. It's relatively easy to get information on revenues, attendance, ratings, etc. Same with baseball, basketball, and hockey. There is also a college level that can be added to the numbers for football and basketball, but you're still looking at really a maximum of two entities for any given sport.

Those sports are also entirely located within the US and Canada, and the vast majority are within the US... so getting US numbers for revenue, attendance, ratings, etc. isn't too difficult.

Soccer complicates all of that.

MLS is only one of many professional leagues that are followed by US soccer fans. Since there's so much interest in foreign clubs, "attendance" becomes a much less useful metric for comparison. "Revenue" is also much less useful, since we can only take 100% of the revenue of MLS... but we'd need to somehow account for an unknown portion of the revenue of the foreign leagues. "Ratings" is still fairly useful, but it's fragmented across many different leagues and providers (both cable and internet), which make the numbers difficult to aggregate.

As I said earlier, soccer is already clearly more popular than hockey in pockets around the country. In certain places, it's probably more popular than baseball and basketball, too. It's really hard to quantify, though.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

His point about hearing for 40 years now that soccer is going to take off in America was spot on.

People are still spouting this drivel today. Not gonna happen.

It is going to happen just like hearing Spanish spoken, every day, all over America is going to happen. get used to it. Be part of the changing culture or be marginalized by it.

 

[MulletCork]

It is going to happen just like hearing Spanish spoken, every day, all over America is going to happen. get used to it. Be part of the changing culture or be marginalized by it.

Already has happened my friend.

 

[chrisru99]

Already has happened my friend.

If your out and about during fleet week look at what the servicemen and women look like. Los Estados Unidos son de nosotros tambien. In my family it's 2 out of three of my mom's sons including myself. Copa America starts soon here and semi finals and finals are in NJ should be a great time.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

Soccer is a beautiful game. Find a European league team to latch onto and enjoy some of the best, most intense sporting competition on the planet. For as much as I love soccer, I can't get into MLS. It's just not as good as the bigger European leagues.
Unfortunately, in the US, there aren't enough youth coaches who understand the game. I cringe when I hear coaches and parents applauding a "big kick" up the field to absolutely no one. And it's no fault of their own. Many youth coaches are volunteering their time to coach despite having no soccer experience or knowledge. Youth soccer in England, Spain, or Italy doesn't have this problem since everyone knows the game.

 

[Bamm Bamm Rubble]

Soccer is a long, long, long, long, long, long way from knocking off hockey as the #4 sport in the US. As per Wiki, the NHL made 10 times the revenue as MLS in 2014. This may not be a perfect comparison, but we don't need one when the difference is so massive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue

Trust me The MLS doesn't even bother thinking about The NHL because they know soccer has already passed hockey especially when played at its highest level. The MLS is now positioning itself to battle the rest of the planets best for millennials eye balls.

 

[Virginiarufan]

Average per game attendance:

NFL: 68,216
MLB: 30,517
MLS: 21,574
NBA: 17,809
NHL: 17,503

But please, keep pretending soccer in the US is irrelevant.

Complete bull$hit argument. Not gonna do it but if someone did the research, TV viewership and revenue would knock soccer down below women's wrestling and about 20 other sports. And this is coming from someone who had 3 German uncles who played the sport at a high level. Americans don't care about soccer other than a sport for kids who can't play games that require true physical contact.

 

[ruready4somefootball]

My younger brother played soccer at Raritan HS in the late 80's, when they were the #1 ranked team in the state by The Star Ledger. He made 1st team All State and I was at a lot of those games and really got into it. I remember when the Cosmos used to fill Giants Stadium and my Dad would say the sport is about to explode in this country. Never happened, and never will.

 

[RUChoppin]

Complete bull$hit argument. Not gonna do it but if someone did the research, TV viewership and revenue would knock soccer down below women's wrestling and about 20 other sports.

Not sure why you believe this.

If you aggregate soccer TV viewership (MLS, various Euro leagues, US National Team, etc), it is already one of the most watched sports in the US (easily top ten, probably top five).

Looking at revenue, MLS is just a piece of the pie. For example, MLS/US Soccer just signed a media deal running through 2022 netting $90M/yr... while the Premier League just signed a US broadcast rights deal running through 2022 for $177M/yr... while UEFA Champions league has a deal running through 2018 for $83M/yr... etc, etc. That's not including the FIFA World Cup or other periodic tournaments that don't have a "per year" figure. There's a lot of moving parts, each with their own media deal in the US.

Meanwhile, the "record-breaking" NHL deal signed in 2011 pays out $200M annually through 2021.

 

[Virginiarufan]

But at the same time the B1G signed a $250M deal for 50% of it's football programming. College football will dwarf all the soccer put together. I imagine NCAA basketball broadcast rights far exceed soccer as well. Go in to any bar and see what happens if someone turns a hockey game off to watch a soccer match. Nobody cares about soccer in this country except for transplants and soccer moms till their kids stop playing it.

 

[oldman87]

What channel is women's wrestling on?

 

[RUChoppin]

But at the same time the B1G signed a $250M deal for 50% of it's football programming. College football will dwarf all the soccer put together. I imagine NCAA basketball broadcast rights far exceed soccer as well. Go in to any bar and see what happens if someone turns a hockey game off to watch a soccer match. Nobody cares about soccer in this country except for transplants and soccer moms till their kids stop playing it.

No one's arguing that soccer (or any other sport) will come close to catching football. So, that's a straw man. No one's arguing that it'll catch up to baseball or basketball, either.

"Go into any bar"... meaning "go into any of the bars I usually frequent". Plenty of soccer bars all around the country - see what happens if you go in one and turn off the soccer game to turn on hockey. Like I've said a couple times, both sports exist in pockets around the country.

Lots and lots of people couldn't care less about soccer. Lots and lots of people couldn't care less about hockey, too.

But if you think "nobody" cares about soccer in this country, you obviously haven't been paying attention - or are just trolling.

 

[MulletCork]

What channel is women's wrestling on?

Late night G.L.O.W. replays on.
Tina Ferrari was the best

 

[lighty]

Furthermore, soccer in general has 100% passed hockey in terms of interest. Not even close. The numbers EPL, UEFA, EUROPA, Bundesliga, and La Liga put up in addition to MLS DWARFS HOCKEY.

I would argue the overall eyeballs for soccer easily pass hockey AND basketball, and probably rival baseball as well. Soccer, as many have pointed out, is hardly just the MLS. I watch the Bundesliga every week, yet rarely tune in for MLS. I know many here regularly watch games in England and Spain as well. How many can say they actively watch baseball from Japan? I know it's broadcast on at least one station these days.

There's nothing more tiresome than people who think soccer hasn't become more popular in the last 40 years. Reality, and statistics, all say otherwise whether they want to admit it. Too many Americans seem scared of anything that's popular around the world coming here...

 

[mikemarc1]

Trust me The MLS doesn't even bother thinking about The NHL because they know soccer has already passed hockey especially when played at its highest level. The MLS is now positioning itself to battle the rest of the planets best for millennials eye balls.

Are we talking leagues or sports? Different argument. No clue if soccer has passed hockey like you say (not even sure what that means)..but the MLS is no where near the NHL...which is no where near the NBA..in terns of popularity/exposure in this country.

 

[RUChoppin]

Are we talking leagues or sports? Different argument. No clue if soccer has passed hockey like you say (not even sure what that means)..but the MLS is no where near the NHL...which is no where near the NBA..in terns of popularity/exposure in this country.

I was talking sports, which is very hard to quantify given the various soccer offerings available across multiple leagues and channels. Just taking the top three yearly deals (above), the sport brings in more media money than hockey does (and that's not even including the World Cup).

As far as leagues, MLS has a long way to go to be competitive with leagues like EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga, etc... and a long way to go to be competitive with other US professional leagues like the NHL, NBA, and MLB.

That doesn't mean the "sport" is lagging in audience, just that MLS doesn't even have the biggest soccer audience in the US (EPL deal is bigger than the MLS/US Soccer deal, even given that EPL games are 5 hours shifted due to time zone).

 

[mikemarc1]

I was talking sports, which is very hard to quantify given the various soccer offerings available across multiple leagues and channels. Just taking the top three yearly deals (above), the sport brings in more media money than hockey does (and that's not even including the World Cup).

As far as leagues, MLS has a long way to go to be competitive with leagues like EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga, etc... and a long way to go to be competitive with other US professional leagues like the NHL, NBA, and MLB.

That doesn't mean the "sport" is lagging in audience, just that MLS doesn't even have the biggest soccer audience in the US (EPL deal is bigger than the MLS/US Soccer deal, even given that EPL games are 5 hours shifted due to time zone).

Agree. Soccer is also much "easier" to play. All u need, technically, is a ball. Its much less expensive and affordable than hockey, which requirs skates, equipment, and a knowledge of skating. This definitely helps soccers move towards and past hockey.

Doesnt mean MLS is overtaking NHL. Long way to go for that, if ever.

 

[Virginiarufan]

But if you think "nobody" cares about soccer in this country, you obviously haven't been paying attention - or are just trolling.

I said nobody cares except for soccer moms and transplants. I don't live in NJ anymore but since it's sort of a melting pot I assume there's more interest for the game there. But in most of Virginia and probably elsewhere around the country, the only place you're going to find a soccer game on TV is in a Mexican restaurant.

 

[RUChoppin]

Agree. Soccer is also much "easier" to play. All u need, technically, is a ball. Its much less expensive and affordable than hockey, which requirs skates, equipment, and a knowledge of skating. This definitely helps soccers move towards and past hockey.

Doesnt mean MLS is overtaking NHL. Long way to go for that, if ever.

I think the MLS has a very high ceiling, and it's been showing growth. The TV deals have been a bit better, and they seem to be expanding to new markets gradually. With more teams and games will come more TV money, which will allow them to bring in better players. Still a long way off from hockey, but it's moving in a direction of positive growth.

Demographics also help, and have been shifting in a direction that favors the growth of interest in soccer.

 

[RUChoppin]

I said nobody cares except for soccer moms and transplants. I don't live in NJ anymore but since it's sort of a melting pot I assume there's more interest for the game there. But in most of Virginia and probably elsewhere around the country, the only place you're going to find a soccer game on TV is in a Mexican restaurant.

You're projecting your own experience onto the rest of the country, which is a really false assumption. There's a reason US television networks pay more each year for soccer content than they do for hockey content... and it's not to corner the transplant and soccer mom markets.

As for VA, you're probably more likely to find soccer on in an Irish bar than a Mexican one (here's a quick Google search link for "soccer bars" in VA: http://www.livesoccertv.com/pubs/virginia/). Still, the soccer scene in any of VA's cities would pale next that of, say, Seattle, Kansas City, or Portland.

 

[satnom]

I said nobody cares except for soccer moms and transplants. I don't live in NJ anymore but since it's sort of a melting pot I assume there's more interest for the game there. But in most of Virginia and probably elsewhere around the country, the only place you're going to find a soccer game on TV is in a Mexican restaurant.

Dude,

You're full of it. Virginia is one of top states in the country for soccer talent with soccer clubs all over the state. Heck, the NJ
PDA program is having a showcase tournament this weekend in central Jersey with over 70 U14, 15 and 16 teams from across the country coming in to play eachother and with 80 division 1 program coaches coming to see this talent. Their are 8 teams from Virginia alone. Northern VA and the Tidewater has big time interest in soccer. You must live in the Roanoke/Lynchburg areas.

I grew up playing football, basketball and baseball. I've watched more soccer in the past year than I've watched baseball in the past 3 years. The demographics of our country are changing even if the Francesca"Make America Great Again" crowd don't realize it. In the US, the top two sportsleagues are the NFL and College Football. Baseball is sliding and only a matter of time before basketball surpasses. NHL is a waaaay distant 4th and already has fewer fans than soccer in the US. Soccer is the #1 sport in the rest of the entire world. All you need is a soccer ball and open field and anyone and every country participates in it.

The Premier, La Liga, Bundesliga, along with revenue from the Americas blow away any world sport revenue not emanating from US style football or Basketball. Dems the facts.

GO RU

 

[RUhasarrived]

One problem it may have in movin' on up here is that the MLS isn't the top league in the world.I still don't understand why the indoor league didn't make it big.I went to a few NJ Rockets games in 1982,and thought that it was a superior game to the outdoor version.

 

[mikemarc1]

One of the reasons I dislike soccer....this is unbelievable

 

[mildone]

View embedded media

One of the reasons I dislike soccer....this is unbelievable

[laughing] That player (on the ground) did that bad-acting job twice in the game.

I'm a traditionalist and don't favor changing the FIFA laws of the game much, if at all. But one thing I'd do is have a mandated review process in which refs review games and give out suspensions for players that take outrageous dives or attempt to fake the refs into giving out yellow/red cards like that player did.

The idea isn't so much to be punitive as to eliminate that ugly aspect of the game.

 

[BoroKnight]

Average per game attendance:

NFL: 68,216
MLB: 30,517
MLS: 21,574
NBA: 17,809
NHL: 17,503

But please, keep pretending soccer in the US is irrelevant.

Irrelevant, as indoor arenas are obviously a lot smaller (and filled a lot closer to capacity) AND there are a lot more basketball and hockey games in a season. Multiply that 17,000 by 41 and the MLS' 21,000 by however many home game they play and the totals aren't even close.

Soccer finally has achieved its proper place -- a solid niche with financially viable franchises across the nation. Pretending it's more than that in the U.S. other than for the major international events is silly. It took MLS years just to stop losing money, and it appears its most successful franchises off the field are its newest ones. Good for it, but let's not lose perspective here.

And note how so many soccer people note baseball's "demise" and yet there is MLB averaging more than 30,000 fans per game for an 81-game home slate. Looked at that way, no other sport is close.

 

[RUChoppin]

Irrelevant, as indoor arenas are obviously a lot smaller (and filled a lot closer to capacity) AND there are a lot more basketball and hockey games in a season. Multiply that 17,000 by 41 and the MLS' 21,000 by however many home game they play and the totals aren't even close.

Soccer finally has achieved its proper place -- a solid niche with financially viable franchises across the nation. Pretending it's more than that in the U.S. other than for the major international events is silly. It took MLS years just to stop losing money, and it appears its most successful franchises off the field are its newest ones. Good for it, but let's not lose perspective here.

And note how so many soccer people note baseball's "demise" and yet there is MLB averaging more than 30,000 fans per game for an 81-game home slate. Looked at that way, no other sport is close.

I think the biggest indicator of increased "interest" in soccer in the US is the increased viewership of the English Premier League. MLS is essentially the equivalent of the Canadian Football League - if you want to watch the best football teams, you don't watch the Argonauts. Same in soccer, if you want to watch the best soccer teams, you don't watch MLS.

The fact that the English Premier League has such a big US media rights deal is something that wouldn't have happened 20 years ago, and points to a much-increased interest level in the sport itself.

The MLS is trying to bask in reflected light, a bit, with the "If you love Arsenal or Real Madrid, you can watch live professional soccer right here at home!" They don't have the quality of play of the European leagues, but they're the "only game in town" if you want to see the sport played live (short of when the Euro teams come over to play games on US soil). The on-field product of the MLS has to get much, much, much better if it's going to be seen as competitive with the European leagues.

In the US, we have the best professional leagues in the world for football, baseball, basketball, and hockey. Our soccer league probably isn't in the top five. Just like much fewer people watch arena football or the CFL, in favor of the NFL.... so too do people favor the Premier League or Champions League to MLS. Until the US product is in the conversation as one of the top leagues in the world, it's going to struggle with an audience that wants to watch the best teams.

Edit: As I've mentioned a few times, soccer (and MLS) interest is definitely blossoming in pockets around the country (Seattle, Kansas City, Portland, etc). Soccer-mania is far from gripping the US, though, and won't really ever get close to that point - Football is king, and is not going to relinquish its crown.

 

[RU848789]

[laughing] That player (on the ground) did that bad-acting job twice in the game.

I'm a traditionalist and don't favor changing the FIFA laws of the game much, if at all. But one thing I'd do is have a mandated review process in which refs review games and give out suspensions for players that take outrageous dives or attempt to fake the refs into giving out yellow/red cards like that player did.

The idea isn't so much to be punitive as to eliminate that ugly aspect of the game.

I like that idea a lot, as I hate the diving culture. As we discussed the other day, the other rule change I'd like to see is giving the ref some discretion to not call a PK for fouls in the box that aren't clear scoring opportunities. In a sport where one goal is so precious, giving a PK, which has an ~80% success rate, for fouling a guy moving away from the goal or for a hand ball that has a really minor impact is too harsh, IMO.

Maybe give the other team the choice of where outside the 18 yard box to take a direct kick from or bring in my favorite concept for soccer - the penalty box - let the other team decide to send that guy off for 5 or 10 minutes, which is nowhere near as penal as a PK. I'd use the penalty box, also, instead of red cards (unless egregious) - losing a guy for the rest of the match for 2 yellows seems excessive. And while we're at it, let's eliminate PKs to decide elimination games.

 

[RU848789]

70 posts and nobody (nobody!) noted the misspelling in Kapy's thread title? You guys are slipping.

 

[mildone]

I like that idea a lot, as I hate the diving culture. As we discussed the other day, the other rule change I'd like to see is giving the ref some discretion to not call a PK for fouls in the box that aren't clear scoring opportunities. In a sport where one goal is so precious, giving a PK, which has an ~80% success rate, for fouling a guy moving away from the goal or for a hand ball that has a really minor impact is too harsh, IMO.

Maybe give the other team the choice of where outside the 18 yard box to take a direct kick from or bring in my favorite concept for soccer - the penalty box - let the other team decide to send that guy off for 5 or 10 minutes, which is nowhere near as penal as a PK. I'd use the penalty box, also, instead of red cards (unless egregious) - losing a guy for the rest of the match for 2 yellows seems excessive. And while we're at it, let's eliminate PKs to decide elimination games.

The rules for penalty kicks probably evolved to make it possible to score. Otherwise, why not always foul the crap out of anybody about to shoot? I think it'd be too controversial to allow refs to distinguish between a soft or hard foul in the penalty area. Or between an accidental or purposeful hand ball.

 

[mildone]

70 posts and nobody (nobody!) noted the misspelling in Kapy's thread title? You guys are slipping.

I still don't see a misspelling.

 

[RU848789]

I still don't see a misspelling.

Look harder, young Padawan, especially since you misspelled the same word earlier in the thread.

 

[mildone]

Look harder, young Padawan, especially since you misspelled the same word earlier in the thread.

Must be the name of whatshisname, the sports show dude. I have no idea how to spell his name and, other than when someone posts a video clip of him here, have never watched his show.

 

[RUBlueLot]

In terms of all time Francessa rants.... I'm not sure this makes the top ten.

 

[RU848789]

Must be the name of whatshisname, the sports show dude. I have no idea how to spell his name and, other than when someone posts a video clip of him here, have never watched his show.

Correct, it's Francesa, not Francesca or Francessa; Fatcessa is an acceptable variant, however. I've never watched or listened to him either.

 

[miketd1]

MLS -- and soccer knowledge/culture in general -- has come a long way since World Cup '94 (USA).

As we continue to improve coaching and participation at the youth level (small-sided games, added emphasis on skill over sheer athleticism, etc.), the exponential improvement of American soccer on will continue at all levels (youth, academy, MLS, national teams).

A rising tide raises all ships.

 

[MSRU71]

MLS -- and soccer knowledge/culture in general -- has come a long way since World Cup '94 (USA).

As we continue to improve coaching and participation at the youth level (small-sided games, added emphasis on skill over sheer athleticism, etc.), the exponential improvement of American soccer on will continue at all levels (youth, academy, MLS, national teams).

A rising tide raises all ships.

Miketd1 hit the nail on the head. My generation grew up playing Baseball, Basketball and Football. My kids grew up playing soccer, basketball and baseball/softball. The next generation will be coached by men and women who grew up playing soccer. It is a perfect sport for kids too small to play basketball and football and are too bored to play baseball. And you do tend to be interested in the sports you played.

It was not too long ago that you wouldn't even think of soccer as having any place on the American sport scene. But the USA Men and Women's soccer team captivated a lot of attention in the World cups and Olympics. If you really want to get a flavor, go to an RU Soccer (men or women) game and take in some fine play. The Red Bulls are fun too watch. Will soccer replace any of the major sports here in the USA? Not in my lifetime.

But will it keep growing? Absolutely. As for hockey, there is no better sport to watch in person, and the worst sport to watch on TV. I love going to the hockey games, but the game does not translate well to TV.