[pfftt]
Did either of them come close to sleeping with 20K women?
Wilt = GOAT
Did either of them come close to sleeping with 20K women?
Wilt = GOAT
OT: Lebron
- Thread starter RUfanSinceAnderson
- Start date
Celtics were 10 and 0 at home. The Cavs lost their second best player. The Cavs were blown out the 1st 3 games in Boston.
It came as no shock that LeBron led his team to victory.
That says a lot about his game.
It came as no shock that LeBron led his team to victory.
That says a lot about his game.
In that case you’d have to throw Magic in the discussion, though some of them were dudes.
If Kyrie Irving was healthy it would be Boston in the finals instead of Cleveland. Without him Boston’s PG’s Rozier and Smart put up a combined shooting stat line of 3-24 and 0-14 from 3 point range in game 7 at home.
IMO that’s where the game was lost for the Celtics. Very John Starks like when he couldn’t throw the ball into the ocean against Houston in 1994.
Has everyone who complains about how LeBron's teammates sucks are only there because LeBron wanted them there?
Maybe the MJ crowd should give love to Bill Russell if its all about championships. But they don't, they have their head in the sand.
LeBron had no input his first go around in Cleveland, so he left. He had some input and influence with the prior GM when he came back, and they won a title. Then Gilbert screwed that up.
I get that LeBron loves Cleveland and Ohio, but that organization has not been good for his career overall.
I get that LeBron loves Cleveland and Ohio, but that organization has not been good for his career overall.
15th season.
100th game of the season
Played 48 minutes in a game 7 of ECF.
35-15-9.
Can’t put into words how unbelievable that is. No player has ever entered the league with greater expectations, and all he’s done is surpass them by mile. Greatest basketball talent we’ve ever seen.
Kobe is borderline for top ten. And there is a drop off from the trio of KAJ, Jordan, and Lebron. Those three are the serious mentions of an unwinnable argument.
I'm with you. Kobe might not even be in the top 20 for me. Can't forget about Wilt, Oscar Robertson, etc.
Lebron is the best player I've ever seen and I've felt that way for a while. I think he's the clear number 1 at this point.
In the two years after Jordan left the first time, the Bulls finished 3rd (55-27) and 5th (47-35) in the Eastern Conference, and advanced to the Conference Semis both years - both times losing to the eventual Eastern Conference champion.
In the two years after LeBron left (the first time?), the Cavs finished 15th (19-63) and 13th (21-45) in the Eastern Conference, missing the playoffs entirely.
Yikes - Starks is exactly who I was thinking off (I was a big Riley/Ewing Knick fan back in the day). Then I went a memory too far and thought of Charles Smith.
In the year after LeBron left only 2 of the top 8 rotational players remained on the Cavs.. completely different team.
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That's fair. Do you think this Cavs team would win 55 games without James next year?
Not 55, but depending on LeBron's replacement they could fare better than you think. Should Jordan be penalized for finally having a good surrounding cast? Pippen, Grant and Kukoc were hitting their prime. They still didn't come close to winning the NBA championship which is kind of the point. The Miami Heat won 48 games two years after LeBron left.
I'm not penalizing Jordan at all. But you can't take what he accomplished in a vacuum and say it was all on him, because it wasn't. He blossomed in fertile soil and became a legend - but put him on a team that didn't make moves to support him as a superstar, and he wouldn't have been what he was.
If anything, James has been handicapped throughout much of his career by an organization that can't get out of its own way. Competent management could have parlayed James into multiple rings in Cleveland... but while Chicago used Jordan's early years to build a juggernaut around him, Cleveland had no discernible strategy. When he came back, they started acting like they belonged at the big kids table... but that was short lived, and it ended when Gilbert let Griffin go.
As for the Cavs next year if (when?) Lebron leaves.... if they added a rookie Toni Kukoc and traded late in the season for a 3rd year Luc Longley, do you think they win 55 and finish 3rd in the Eastern Conference?
As for the Heat winning 48 after he left, that's kind of the point - in Miami, he had a supporting cast that could carry their own weight, and he won 2 rings there.
James briefly had the fertile soil that Jordan enjoyed, but chose to come back to Cleveland to win a championship for his home city. Now, though, that soil has dried up, and he's almost certainly going to go somewhere next year that cares about building a team instead of just asking him to play hero ball.
Once Cleveland traded Irving away for essentially nothing, the writing was on the wall.
As for "best player ever" consideration, though, they are really hard to compare because they play different roles within their teams, play in completely different eras, and have completely different competition.
This season? I think James is going to run into a buzzsaw in the Finals. GSW has too many weapons, and the Cavs really just have James. Even if James outshines Durant and is the best player on the floor.... Love/Korver/Hill just don't compare to Curry/Thompson/Green.
I'm a Jordan guy but here are facts:
'92-'93- Chicago Bulls- 57-25
'93-'94- Chicago Bulls- 55-27 (no Jordan)
'94-'95- Chicago Bulls- 47-35 (no Jordan sort of)
'09-'10- Cleveland Cavaliers- 61-21
'10-11- Cleveland Cavaliers- 19-63 (no LeBron)
'11-'12- Cleveland Cavaliers- 21-45 (no LeBron)
When LeBron has had any amount of talent around him (Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love) he has won or been super close to the title. When he has had no talent around him he still dragged his team to NBA Finals. Not a knock on Jordan but he never took his talentless teams to the Finals, but he also had Detroit/Boston in his way which LeBron didn't have.
Good discussion. Jordan and Lebron are two of the four heads on NBA Mount Rushmore for certain.
'92-'93- Chicago Bulls- 57-25
'93-'94- Chicago Bulls- 55-27 (no Jordan)
'94-'95- Chicago Bulls- 47-35 (no Jordan sort of)
'09-'10- Cleveland Cavaliers- 61-21
'10-11- Cleveland Cavaliers- 19-63 (no LeBron)
'11-'12- Cleveland Cavaliers- 21-45 (no LeBron)
When LeBron has had any amount of talent around him (Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love) he has won or been super close to the title. When he has had no talent around him he still dragged his team to NBA Finals. Not a knock on Jordan but he never took his talentless teams to the Finals, but he also had Detroit/Boston in his way which LeBron didn't have.
Good discussion. Jordan and Lebron are two of the four heads on NBA Mount Rushmore for certain.
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Wilt.
1.Scored 100 points in a game-without the 3.
2.Gathered 55 rebounds in a game-against Bill Russell
3.Got 28 assists in another game.
4.Never fouled out of a game despite playing 48 minutes in almost all of them.
5.When he had the supporting cast,he won.
If today's athletes are so much better,then why can't NJ's high school track and field boys even approach the performances of Carl Lewis,Ron Freeman,Renaldo Nehemiah,Marty Liquori,Mark Murro,etc.
1.Scored 100 points in a game-without the 3.
2.Gathered 55 rebounds in a game-against Bill Russell
3.Got 28 assists in another game.
4.Never fouled out of a game despite playing 48 minutes in almost all of them.
5.When he had the supporting cast,he won.
If today's athletes are so much better,then why can't NJ's high school track and field boys even approach the performances of Carl Lewis,Ron Freeman,Renaldo Nehemiah,Marty Liquori,Mark Murro,etc.
What is Golden State, then? They've won 80% of their regular season games over the last 4 seasons.
They aren't in Lebron's way to get to the Finals, but they sure are in his way to win a ring.
Toni Kukoc was rookie in name only. At the time he was the greatest player in Euro history. Everyone wanted him. He was already a pro.
I think the San Antonio and Golden State teams that beat Lebron's teams were better than any teams Jordan's teams beat.
Cleveland does not have to go thru Golden State to get to the NBA Finals. Chicago had to go thru Detroit or Boston to get to the NBA Finals.
Jordan finally beat the Bad Boys at the end of their run. When Jordan was winning the East every year, he was beating the 1-2 punches of the Knicks (Ewing & Starks) and Pacers (Miller & Smits). Hard to argue that those duos are much better than the east Lebron faced in his career.
Lebron = Magic Johnson. When Johnson and Jordan played, no one even argued Johnson over Lebron. Don't know why anyone is even comparing Lebron to Jordan. Jordan was the best athlete in the gym, every night and combined with that will to win, he was almost as unstoppable as Shaq was in his prime.
Shaq was the greatest NBA player ever. Period. End of story. The dude was a man playing with kids.
Shaq was the greatest NBA player ever. Period. End of story. The dude was a man playing with kids.
I don't think Shaq was the best NBA player ever.
I don't think he was the best center ever.
So you say LeBron=Johnson and then use it as evidence to support your argument. How about this. LeBron is Johnson with a whole bunch more scoring ability. He is better than Magic was. Was Magic a better passer than LeBron? Probably. Was Jordan a better scorer? Definitely. Was Shaq a better rebounder? Of course? Could any one person do all three as well as LeBron? No. No they could not.
LeBron is what happens when Shaq and Magic produce an offspring.
Lebron > Magic
Though I agree it's probably a better reference for comparison. Lebron is almost like an improved version of Magic.
If you start with a base of Magic Johnson.... add more power, add more scoring, add the ability to shoot from outside, and slightly improve the rebounding... then reduce his assist numbers a bit due to more shooting/scoring... then you start to approximate Lebron James.
Johnson only led the Lakers in scoring 3 seasons. In two of those, he had a fellow 20+ ppg player (HOFer James Worthy). In the third, he had 3 other guys averaging 17+ (Worthy, Jabbar, Scott).
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Shaq would have a harder time in today's game, I think. He'd struggle covering centers that step out beyond the arc - which really wasn't a thing when he was in his prime.
