If you don't think Jordan could have willed some of those poor Cleveland teams to an NBA final with the weak ass watered down Eastern Conference, then I don't think you were around to see Jordan
OT: Lebron
- Thread starter RUfanSinceAnderson
- Start date
Imagine if Curry were to drive on Oakley, Mason and then do the “shimmy”. He would be broken in 2, the next time he drove inside. I don’t remember the pansy touch calls in the 90s NBA that Harden gets from behind the 3 point line.
Jordan also had HOF Phil Jackson throughout his career, and a front office with the commitment and the pocketbook to build a team around him.
Cleveland has shown twice now that they aren't able to do that.
For Jordan's second run, he was one of three HOF players with a HOF coach.
Jordan was amazing, but people sometimes think he accomplished what he did in a vacuum.
It's a toss up to me.. LeBron is great Jordan is great. I hate the way the NBA is now, no defense, no post play, no contact allowed but that doesn't make LeBron any less great. Unfortunately, Jordan retired for three years still in his prime so we will never know what he could have done with a full career.
I don't watch a lot of NBA and hadn't seen Boston. They looked like kids to me. Their late shots were rushed and sloppy - chucking the ball and hoping for hits.
People forget MJ has Pippen for all six titles and Rodman for half of them. That's 3 HOF on one team. MJ and Pippen are on the list of the "50 greatest NBA players". Before Pippen, MJ was just stat padding while getting pushed around by quality playoffs teams like Detroit and Boston. LeBron did more with less, but the truth is they aren't the same type of players. MJ was allowed to focus more on scoring. Pippen usually guarded the best opponent outside of the 4 and 5 positions. Pippen was the point forward for the Bulls. LeBron has to do it all for the Cavs. IMO I rated them as co-number 1, but for different reasons. Both have dominated the competition but through different aspects of the game.
Sure I was. I saw him fail with better players. I guess you get butt hurt when anyone is compared to Jordon.
Jordan made Pippen. He made guys like John Paxton and Bill Cartwright look legit.
Funny to see millenials post who never saw Jordan play.
Im 57 so you are wrong again. Cartwright was Rookie of the Year and an All Star player before he joined the Bulls. Horace Grant was a All Star too.
Please if the Bulls were so bad how did they win 55 games without him??
Anyone who remembers the Bulls without Jordan knows exactly how much he meant to that team. They were a non factor even having made the playoffs. Scottie Pippen pout was the takeaway.
They won 55 games and made they playoffs. The 2007 Cleveland Cavaliers and this year's team would have been in the lottery draft without Lebron. Your comparison between the Bulls of the 90s and Cavaliers is laughable.
I remember the days when Cartwright formed half of the twin towers (Marvin Webster the other half) for the Knicks. When the Knicks drafted Ewing, it spelled the end for Cartwright. My favorite player on those Knicks' teams was Bernard King. I remember Reggie Theus being the dude who was involved in King's knee injury.
I saw LeBron fail with the Dream Team in Miami too. And who the heck is Jordon?
Let’s also not forget, Lebron’s historic run was aided by being on great Miami teams. He couldn’t get it done on his own so went there.
Lebron is a solid number 2. Nothing to scoff at.
Jordan never would have lost with those Miami teams. A real black mark on Lebron’s career.
When Jordan came in 1984 as the #3 pick, he immediately changed the Bulls' fortunes and got them to the playoffs, but he couldn't do it alone.
In 1987, the Bulls picked up Scottie Pippen (#5) and Horace Grant (#10)... which rounded out the "core three" of that team.
In 1988, they traded for Bill Cartwright, and with Jordan/Pippen/Grant/Cartwright finally made it to the Eastern Conference finals.
In 1989, Phil Jackson arrived as the final major piece, and Jordan played in his first Eastern Conference Game 7 (and lost).
In 1990, with all the core pieces in place along with Jackson, they finally made it over the hump and won three national championships.
Every one of the top 8 scorers on the 1990-91 and 1991-92 champion squads were first round draft picks, with Paxson being the lowest pick at 19. In 1992-93, one non-first-rounder snuck in at #6.
The Bulls front office did a great job with the draft and with trades to build a championship squad with a champion coach. Jordan was a phenom, but he was supported by the organization in a way that James never has been in Cleveland.
When Cleveland finally had a front office that seemed to know what they were doing and two superstars in James/Irving (with a third star in Love).... Dan Gilbert managed to lose the GM who was making things happen, and then traded Irving away for a handful of magic beans. Imagine if the Chicago ownership traded Pippen away after the first championship and got nothing back in return... yeesh.
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But as I said, two different types of player in two different eras, with two totally different support systems.
In 1987, the Bulls picked up Scottie Pippen (#5) and Horace Grant (#10)... which rounded out the "core three" of that team.
In 1988, they traded for Bill Cartwright, and with Jordan/Pippen/Grant/Cartwright finally made it to the Eastern Conference finals.
In 1989, Phil Jackson arrived as the final major piece, and Jordan played in his first Eastern Conference Game 7 (and lost).
In 1990, with all the core pieces in place along with Jackson, they finally made it over the hump and won three national championships.
Every one of the top 8 scorers on the 1990-91 and 1991-92 champion squads were first round draft picks, with Paxson being the lowest pick at 19. In 1992-93, one non-first-rounder snuck in at #6.
The Bulls front office did a great job with the draft and with trades to build a championship squad with a champion coach. Jordan was a phenom, but he was supported by the organization in a way that James never has been in Cleveland.
When Cleveland finally had a front office that seemed to know what they were doing and two superstars in James/Irving (with a third star in Love).... Dan Gilbert managed to lose the GM who was making things happen, and then traded Irving away for a handful of magic beans. Imagine if the Chicago ownership traded Pippen away after the first championship and got nothing back in return... yeesh.
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But as I said, two different types of player in two different eras, with two totally different support systems.
I guess you guys toss San Antiono Spurs to the side because they are nobodies. With their coach and talent, they would have beat Chicago a few times. There is a reason why they have been the most consistent team in the NBA for the last 20 years.
There’s really no point in debating people who don’t even watch today’s NBA. They are stuck in the past and are convinced that everything was better back then. Every generation has these types, those of us living in the present just need to ignore them.
LeBron and the Dream Team including Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen (two other soon to be hall of famers along with LeBron) lost 4-1 in the finals.. that is failure
Jordan playing against those great Piston teams at least got to a game 7
Oscar thinks he would have taken MJ to the woodshed.
When you play at that level you should always think there is NO one better
I'm sorry but what two full years off did Jordan have to rest his knees?
The two years when he training to play a different sport and riding the bus in minor league baseball? Sound pretty easy on the knees
School is in
Session 1: 1) Detroit wasn't a powerhouse team when it came to scoring. They were all about rough and tumble and built on stopping you from scoring. 2) That Detroit team was at the end of the road as a group. The next year the Bulls exposed the Pistons and not long after the Detroit team was split up. Detroit's prime years were lost at the hands of Boston. They were lucky enough to get two chips before the window closed.
Session 2: 1) As stated before the Spurs were a machine at the time under Popovich. The year the Spurs beat Miami (4-1), they had six players average double-figures in scoring. You had all-stars Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili leading the way. What people forget was Kawhi Leonard, Patty Mills, and Marco Belinelli also averaging double-figures. Leonard's development cut into Boris Diaw and Danny Green minutes. Still, both averaged over 9 points a game. 2) The Spurs had more depth, plus quality players, and better coaching.
So what I got from that is you minimized how good of a Detroit Piston team was. Those teams consisted of Isaiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Vinnie Johnson, Dennis Rodman, Mark Aguirre, John Salley and Bill Laimbeer.. three hall of famers, and a near hall of famer in Mark Aguirre and multiple all star in Bill Laimbeer. But they were lucky to win those two championships because they may have been a veteran group.. but San Antonio wasn't a veteran group in 2014?
What team approaches that level in the Eastern Conference while LeBron has been playing?
What team approaches that level in the Eastern Conference while LeBron has been playing?
I'm not minimizing Detroit. I just put it into perspective. During the 80s the NBA was dominated by the Lakers and the Celtics. Detroit was just a step below. Both those teams were a little older than Detroit. As those teams aged so did Detroit. Detroit was fortunate Boston started the process of breaking up their team. Detroit filled the void and played a Laker team on the downside of the hill. But just as quickly Detroit filled the void their window started to close. One of the most important things you probably don't remember is HC Chuck Daly had one foot out the door after the second chip. Within two seasons after winning a chip, he was in NJ with the Nets where he had more say and control of player personnel. Daly didn't like the fact that Detroit's front office was making moves on players without consulting him. It destroyed the chemistry of the team.
Btw, Duncan and Ginobili were old (37 & 36). Parker was 31 and the rest (Leonard, Mills, Belinelli were in their twenties.
Neither LeBron or Michael need to be criticized. They are both great. As good as any other player.
Going by that metric...
Bill Russell... 13 seasons played, 11 rings.
MJ... 15 seasons played, 6 rings
The people who played with him did. And they all say that today’s league is far more athletic and difficult. Who has said this, you ask? One is a guy named STEVE KERR.
And I may not have seen MJ play in his prime but I’m a student of basketball and have seen all his great games.
Of course he said that. He’s coaching these guys guys.
You weren’t alive when MJ was in his prime. You aren’t expected to know.
I’d put Kobe ahead of Lebron now that I think about it.
You weren’t alive when MJ was in his prime. You aren’t expected to know.
I’d put Kobe ahead of Lebron now that I think about it.
Harden would be more comprable to Kobe. Again, LeBron plays a completely different role.
If I could pick anybody to build a team around from scratch, I would take MJ or LeBron well before Kobe.
If I could pick anybody to build a team around from scratch, I would take MJ or LeBron well before Kobe.
My BB Mount Rushmore (based on ability; impact on the game in general; social-commercial impact; pro and college combined)
Jordan, James, Magic, Kareem
Next four: Bird, Kobe, Robertson, Chamberlain
Jordan, James, Magic, Kareem
Next four: Bird, Kobe, Robertson, Chamberlain
