OT (Military): What Is the Fuel That Propels Long-Range Missiles?

[RutgersRaRa]

These things can go a long way, and it seems that seemingly relatively small projectiles wouldn't have enough fuel to travel the 800-1,000 miles that ICBMs do. Is it that they rapidly achieve such a high velocity that the remaining few hundred miles are without fuel, and are guided by its guidance system? Was just reading about China's new Dong Feng 41 ICBM, and it got me wondering (for the first time), how do these things travel so far? Maybe they're bigger than it seems, but 1,000 miles is a long distance.

Here's China's new deal:

 

[RU Husky]

White Castles

 

[saran]

. Is it that they rapidly achieve such a high velocity that the remaining few hundred miles are without fuel, and are guided by its guidance system?

They mix kerosene with Vasoline and and General Tso's chicken sauce. That moves rockets far and fast but of course they are hungry again two hours later.

 

[ArminRU]

When I was a kid I could launch model rockets a couple miles away and that was with a tiny engine costing $5. Doesn't seem too difficult to do if you have a million dollar budget.

 

[mullerpesq]

The larger ones use various solid dry propellants that boost the rocket into low earth orbit in just a couple of minutes and then falls away. The warhead is basically a bowling ball after this with no additional push necessary. Range can be over 5,000 miles.

 

[RutgersRaRa]

The larger ones use various solid dry propellants that boost the rocket into low earth orbit in just a couple of minutes and then falls away. The warhead is basically a bowling ball after this with no additional push necessary. Range can be over 5,000 miles.

I knew the warheads were small, and never studied jet propellants, but learned enough randomly to be curious. In bullets, for instance, the oxygen is supplied in the gunpowder, so that an oxidation-reduction reaction occurs extremely rapidly. But the ICBMs have to be more controlled due to be efficacious, and it's pretty cool how they pull it off with the various projectiles. When I was around eight years old and learned that Revolutionary War cannonballs travelled many miles (IIRC up to 75), I was floored. And curious.

 

[RU848789]

I knew the warheads were small, and never studied jet propellants, but learned enough randomly to be curious. In bullets, for instance, the oxygen is supplied in the gunpowder, so that an oxidation-reduction reaction occurs extremely rapidly. But the ICBMs have to be more controlled due to be efficacious, and it's pretty cool how they pull it off with the various projectiles. When I was around eight years old and learned that Revolutionary War cannonballs travelled many miles (IIRC up to 75), I was floored. And curious.

Having blown a lot of things up, professionally (safety testing), I have a little knowledge in this area. Gunpowder is a mixture of charcoal (carbon), sulfur, and potassium nitrate; the first two are fuels and the latter is the oxidant that, once sparked, drives the oxidation (combustion, really) reaction to propel a bullet or a cannonball. And Revolutionary War cannons typically had a useful range of about a mile and physical range of a little over 2 miles. Not sure where you got your 75 mile figure from for RW cannons - the biggest artillery guns in the World Wars had ranges of 50 miles or more, but they weren't particularly accurate at such long ranges. And as Muller said, ICBMs are essentially launched into orbit, like rockets, with most of their flight being ballistic in nature, i.e., not powered. Google is your friend, here...

 

[Babybull244]

Google Jack Parson's inventor of solid rocket fuel - founder of JPL - also a Satanist and devotee of Aleister Crowley...interesting guy to say the least. He and L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology fame attempted to bring the Anti-Christ to earth via a sex majik ritual. Unclear at this time if they were successful. lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons_(rocket_engineer)

 

[RutgersRaRa]

Having blown a lot of things up, professionally (safety testing), I have a little knowledge in this area. Gunpowder is a mixture of charcoal (carbon), sulfur, and potassium nitrate; the first two are fuels and the latter is the oxidant that, once sparked, drives the oxidation (combustion, really) reaction to propel a bullet or a cannonball. And Revolutionary War cannons typically had a useful range of about a mile and physical range of a little over 2 miles. Not sure where you got your 75 mile figure from for RW cannons - the biggest artillery guns in the World Wars had ranges of 50 miles or more, but they weren't particularly accurate at such long ranges. And as Muller said, ICBMs are essentially launched into orbit, like rockets, with most of their flight being ballistic in nature, i.e., not powered. Google is your friend, here...

Uh uh, YOU are my friend here. Stop slacking off and give me the info I need. This is intellectual stuff, and there's not enough of that around these parts. I am performing a valuable service to my Rutgers brethren and lurkers, so keep it coming.

As for the 75-mile range, it may have been Civil War cannons or WW1 battleships for all I remember. I was eight or so. In any case, someone's cannonballs went 75 miles, and that is still mindblowing.

Also, since "ballistic" means "not powered," the expression "going ballistic" is a bit off target.

 

[RutgersRaRa]

Google Jack Parson's inventor of solid rocket fuel - founder of JPL - also a Satanist and devotee of Aleister Crowley...interesting guy to say the least. He and L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology fame attempted to bring the Anti-Christ to earth via a sex majik ritual. Unclear at this time if they were successful. lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons_(rocket_engineer)

Well they seem to have misunderstood the nature of "anti-Christ," and were whackos who used their religion and philosophy to blow shit up. In a weird way I kind of admire them. I would love to blow major shit up in the name of Bible study. Classes would be well attended, and we could have Saturday services in the Blue Lot.

 

[RUseaweed]

Somewhat in the vein as the OP's question, here's a really good page by XKCD about why it's so hard to get in to orbit. Also very timely for all of the Bassos and Musk activities going on recently.

https://what-if.xkcd.com/58/

 

[Will Scarlet]

Well they seem to have misunderstood the nature of "anti-Christ," and were whackos who used their religion and philosophy to blow shit up. In a weird way I kind of admire them. I would love to blow major shit up in the name of Bible study. Classes would be well attended, and we could have Saturday services in the Blue Lot.

Although my quick scan didn't reveal a response to this particular question, if you're not adverse to losing a couple-hours-at-a-time to scanning questionable-to-brilliant answers to questions that you've vaguely considered, but never seriously assessed, if you haven't already, try: quora.com.

 

[R1776U]

depending of the range its a solid booster (kinda like a bottle rocket) and if longer range then LOX

 

[Extra Point]

These things can go a long way, and it seems that seemingly relatively small projectiles wouldn't have enough fuel to travel the 800-1,000 miles that ICBMs do. Is it that they rapidly achieve such a high velocity that the remaining few hundred miles are without fuel, and are guided by its guidance system? Was just reading about China's new Dong Feng 41 ICBM, and it got me wondering (for the first time), how do these things travel so far? Maybe they're bigger than it seems, but 1,000 miles is a long distance.

Here's China's new deal:

View embedded media

I don't think it is a good idea to name a rocket Dong.

 

[RU4Real]

depending of the range its a solid booster (kinda like a bottle rocket) and if longer range then LOX

All U.S. ICBMs utilize solid propellant, regardless of launch platform.

Russian sub-launched missiles utilize solid propellant, as do a number of their transportable land-based missiles. Back in my day, their silo-based ICBMs utilized liquid propellant, which represented a decided disadvantage for the former Soviet strategic rocket forces - U.S. surveillance satellites were able to detect the fueling process (you can't leave liquid propellant in the rocket, it has to be fueled just prior to launch), which provided an early warning capability for the U.S.

 

[saran]

When I was a kid I could launch model rockets a couple miles away and that was with a tiny engine costing $5. Doesn't seem too difficult to do if you have a million dollar budget.

I remember those Estes rockets and engines. The instructions that came with the engines had a cautionary tale about a kid who blew up his hand not doing things correctly. You wondered what happened to him. I assume he didn't play defensive end in the NFL. Moms let you do stuff back then. Now you have to "stay thafe" at home with CoD and gooey girl videos

 

[RutgersRaRa]

Although my quick scan didn't reveal a response to this particular question, if you're not adverse to losing a couple-hours-at-a-time to scanning questionable-to-brilliant answers to questions that you've vaguely considered, but never seriously assessed, if you haven't already, try: quora.com.

Won't that just re-direct me back here? ;-)

 

[derleider]

and were whackos who used their religion and philosophy to blow shit up.

Well thats nothing new.

 

[RutgersRaRa]

Well thats nothing new.

I've equally enjoyed blowing stuff up as a (former) professed atheist and as not, so my conclusion is simple; blowing stuff up is fun.

 

[miketd1]

 

[RUinPinehurst]

Well they seem to have misunderstood the nature of "anti-Christ," and were whackos who used their religion and philosophy to blow shit up. In a weird way I kind of admire them. I would love to blow major shit up in the name of Bible study. Classes would be well attended, and we could have Saturday services in the Blue Lot.

You, sir, are one "Odd Fellow." Perhaps this organization would suit you: http://www.ioof.org/

;)

 

[RU Cheese]

All U.S. ICBMs utilize solid propellant, regardless of launch platform.

Russian sub-launched missiles utilize solid propellant, as do a number of their transportable land-based missiles. Back in my day, their silo-based ICBMs utilized liquid propellant, which represented a decided disadvantage for the former Soviet strategic rocket forces - U.S. surveillance satellites were able to detect the fueling process (you can't leave liquid propellant in the rocket, it has to be fueled just prior to launch), which provided an early warning capability for the U.S.

Didn't know the surveillance / fueling thing. Pretty cool, thanks for sharing

 

[RutgersRaRa]

You, sir, are one "Odd Fellow." Perhaps this organization would suit you: http://www.ioof.org/

;)

How did you know about the organization to which you refer me? Asking for spreadsheet purposes.

 

[Piscataway]

I knew the warheads were small, and never studied jet propellants, but learned enough randomly to be curious. In bullets, for instance, the oxygen is supplied in the gunpowder, so that an oxidation-reduction reaction occurs extremely rapidly. But the ICBMs have to be more controlled due to be efficacious, and it's pretty cool how they pull it off with the various projectiles. When I was around eight years old and learned that Revolutionary War cannonballs travelled many miles (IIRC up to 75), I was floored. And curious.

No Friggin Way! I think about 2+ miles at most. Remember the 16 inch gun from a Battleship could only sling a projectile 20+ miles.

http://www.nps.gov/fosu/planyourvisit/upload/18_Pounder_Cannon.pdf

 

[srru86]

No Friggin Way! I think about 2+ miles at most. Remember the 16 inch gun from a Battleship could only sling a projectile 20+ miles.

Correct. The American 16/50 naval rifle (artillery) went about 25 miles. A little less in the naval turret mounting on the Iowa class battleships. A little longer in some of the shore mounted coast defense guns because they could elevate higher. The Japanese 18' gun of the same period went just a mile or two further.

For field guns the 155mm "Long Tom" of WWII vintage went about 14 miles. During the Cold War the long range hitter was the 8 inch howitzer. It went about 15 miles. With a rocket boost shell about 18 miles.

No artillery shot much farther than that, including the Atomic Cannon, until the arrival of modern tactical rocket systems rocket like MLRS. Though during the Cold War there were some specialty rockets and missiles like the Honest John and Lance. But those were more about the Army being able to shot nukes than traditional artillery.

 

[RUich]

I've equally enjoyed blowing stuff up as a (former) professed atheist and as not, so my conclusion is simple; blowing stuff up is fun.

Hmmmmm, better hope you don't have Homeland Security monitoring this site.:boom:

 

[RutgersRaRa]

Hmmmmm, better hope you don't have Homeland Security monitoring this site.:boom:

I live four blocks from the Director, and his entourage, which consists of 8-10 vehicles parked outside his house when he's home, regularly stare me down when I drive by. I'll roll over on all of you if I have to, so give me likes. Turns out they already knew about Nuts and MrScrew, though, and they like them a lot. No further details available.

 

[RUich]

LOL

 

[RUfromSoCal?]

As this drawing clearly shows, it has to do with pixie dust and black magic.

 

[Skull83]

This made me smile and I thought it deserved another look, thanks miketd1.

 

[RutgersRaRa]

As this drawing clearly shows, it has to do with pixie dust and black magic.

In a remarkable coincidence, this is exactly what Flood was trying to draw during games.

 

[RUMorrisC]

In a remarkable coincidence, this is exactly what Flood was trying to draw during games.

Who you thinking of blowing up?

 

[RutgersRaRa]

Who you thinking of blowing up?

Tsk tsk, nobody--I'm a lover, not a hater. Although I'm pretty sure I've fantasized about blowing myself up for being a diehard RU fan/lab rat, but I immediately come here to feel better because we're all friends.

 

[SkilletHead2]

As this drawing clearly shows, it has to do with pixie dust and black magic.

I didn't know they had to go over the North Pole.

 

[RU4Real]

I didn't know they had to go over the North Pole.

They would take the shortest Great Circle route. Kansas to Moscow would go through the southern third of Greenland.

 

[RutgersRaRa]

They would take the shortest Great Circle route. Kansas to Moscow would go through the southern third of Greenland.

Which would be awesome because I think Abba is playing Greenland that night.

 

[miketd1]

They would take the shortest Great Circle route. Kansas to Moscow would go through the southern third of Greenland.

No stopovers?

 

[ChasRC69]

These things can go a long way, and it seems that seemingly relatively small projectiles wouldn't have enough fuel to travel the 800-1,000 miles that ICBMs do. Is it that they rapidly achieve such a high velocity that the remaining few hundred miles are without fuel, and are guided by its guidance system? Was just reading about China's new Dong Feng 41 ICBM, and it got me wondering (for the first time), how do these things travel so far? Maybe they're bigger than it seems, but 1,000 miles is a long distance.

Here's China's new deal:

View embedded media

I was a Missile Crew Commander in the USAF in the early 70's, and the Titan II missile used a fuel of hydrazine and unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine and an oxidizer of nitrogen tetroxide. It had a range of up to 10,000 miles. It's flight was very similar to the diagram shown a little later in this thread. Most of the distance was travelled by the warhead, not the missile.

 

[RutgersRaRa]

I was a Missile Crew Commander in the USAF in the early 70's, and the Titan II missile used a fuel of hydrazine and unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine and an oxidizer of nitrogen tetroxide. It had a range of up to 10,000 miles. It's flight was very similar to the diagram shown a little later in this thread. Most of the distance was travelled by the warhead, not the missile.

What was the preferred altitude for distances of, say, 3,000 miles or more?

 

[thad23]

I knew the warheads were small, and never studied jet propellants, but learned enough randomly to be curious. In bullets, for instance, the oxygen is supplied in the gunpowder, so that an oxidation-reduction reaction occurs extremely rapidly. But the ICBMs have to be more controlled due to be efficacious, and it's pretty cool how they pull it off with the various projectiles. When I was around eight years old and learned that Revolutionary War cannonballs travelled many miles (IIRC up to 75), I was floored. And curious.

The Paris Gun would shell Paris from 75 miles away during WWI.