OT- New WTC Transportation Hub

[RUsSKii]

The MTA isn't exceptionally well run, but one thing the subway does provide is consistent 24-7 service and replacement service when they do work, two things which the PA has fought. And the MTA (even with delays) expanded the 7 and is working on the 2nd ave line. With the PA, it was only when David Samson "lobbied" United for a flight to his summer home that the PA contemplated expanding the PATH to EWR, and the study alone is costing millions.

My other idea would be make a commission with members of the cities that are stakeholders on the PATH line, perhaps even voted on by the city residents.

The way the federal law is worded, the PA has control where the work is interstate, and thus the GWB would be in their purview but not the Tap (without looking I don't know has that but my guess is the Thruway Authority). That said, I understand why both states want a say and why those connections are federally important for security reasons.

In terms of the airports I think there can be flexibility. IMO EWR and JFK are good, not great, versus some other major hubs I've been to (LAX awful; Heathrow pleasant).

Fair enough. I've actually done work on the 2nd Avenue line for over two years now, and it's very far along. It's still on budget and scheduled to open next new year's day, and at worst may be a few months late while the new-old system's kinks are worked out. The thing is that MTA Capital Construction is fully responsible for new stations and/or construction, not the core agency division that runs the exisiting system and performs routine maintenance.

I tend to think that with the Port Authority, the facilities/crossings/PATH are better-maintained, but expansion/new construction has a better chance of being poorly managed. My firm used to provide C.M. for the World Trade Center, but tapped out several years ago because it was getting too ridiculous. The Gateway Tunnel project, currently in its initial stages to replace & supplement the Hudson rail tunnels, is being done in conjunction between Amtrak and the Port Authority, with the MTA and both NY/NJ on tap for financing (which is how it should have been done in the first place).

And for your information, the Tappan Zee bridge is indeed maintained by the New York State Thruway Authority. The whole reason the bridge was located there was to fall outside the Port Authority's 25 mile "range of influence". The more reasonable $5 one-way toll to cross an exceptionally wide portion of the Hudson River probably explains that as well.

 

[mikefla]

Thanks for posting the link and pictures OP...looks good

As always I come away wondering why all some of you guys do NOTHING...but complain.

 

[brista21]

Don't forget, it was cost overruns early in the project that caused CORE to be stopped. Those commuter rail tunnels under the Hudson are desperately needed too.

If by CORE you mean ARC or THE Tunnel, which I'm pretty sure you do, there were not only no cost overruns at the time, the project was actually under budget by something like a few hundred million dollars. Obviously, that wouldn't last forever, but its a good indicator of how bad overruns will end up, which was to say nowhere near as bad as Christie's office kept saying. Christie for whatever reason just didn't want the tunnels built, basically so he could take the money for them to patch up the TTF for a few more years.

 

[brista21]

Should not be every 10 minutes. Should be on the same schedule as the overnight subway, which is 15-25 depending. 35 is ridiculous.

Exactly. I've always thought the 30 minute headways were nuts given how packed the PATH trains were in those hours. Just moving to 20 minute headways (3 trains per hour per direction) would cut down on the overcrowding dramatically.

 

[retired711]

PATCO (which runs between Lindenwold, N.J. and center city Philadelphia) runs roughly every twenty minutes from 8 p.m. to midnight -- and every forty-five minutes from midnight to 6 a.m. I have ridden the train after 8 p.m. and at least then the riders appear sober but sleepy. There aren't many of them.

 

[T2Kplus10]

No cost is very relevant. Shall we talk about how much your boss' shenanigans at the PA have cost the NJ taxpayer? BTW, here in JC, with the most people in the state and the most property taxes paid, by your definition we should call the shots on spending. Not to mention the tax dollars that all the businesses in Jersey City and Newark bring in versus say deep red Sussex and Warren counties that consistently trail in every economic indicator. Jersey City has among the best, if not the best, job growth in the entire state. In significant part because it's easy to get to.

Also, why is that you and Christie are so angry about the PATH, but not the PATCO, which runs 24-7 between South Jersey and Philly? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the South Jersey political machine...

That said your Christiecrat ideology is showing. The CONSERVATIVE mayor of London recently made the Tube 24-7 on some lines. NJ Transit has some buses that run overnight to the reddest parts of the state with high frequency including the 139 off the top of my head. It was Rudy Giuliani that actually made the subway safe to ride in late hours.

The idea that you would attempt to turn public transportation into a left-right issue shows the level of discourse which sunk under Christie. There is not a single Republican or Democratic mayor of any sizeable city who in 2016 would seek to cut overnight transportation and in fact most are adding and increasing because it saves us all money in the long run.

What a silly post by NIRH:
1. PA is more NY than NJ - the #1 PA employee is always from NY and the #2 is from NJ
2. JC is a joke and has been financially raping the state budget for decades, this all comes to an end with the upcoming tax reassessment - just watch what's going to happen, double or triple property taxes is coming. And FYI, 90% of JC is still a dangerous dump.
3. PATCO is worse than PATH and was built by Dems for the Dems in Camden
4. All unprofitable mass transit routes/times should be stopped - buses and trains - once again, stop wasting taxpayer money and book Uber, problem solved.
5. Fulop is going to jail due to the $1m in blood money to his PAC.

You still don't have a clue.

 

[retired711]

T2K has Patco confused with the River Line (which, by the way, was built for a Republican.) PATCO has existed since the 1930s; it originally was a private rail line. It was expanded in the late 1960s to cover more of South Jersey. Without PATCO, the Ben Franklin Bridge would be crowded even more than it is.

 

[brista21]

T2K has Patco confused with the River Line (which, by the way, was built for a Republican.) PATCO has existed since the 1930s; it originally was a private rail line. It was expanded in the late 1960s to cover more of South Jersey. Without PATCO, the Ben Franklin Bridge would be crowded even more than it is.

Although to be fair the River Line has actually done better ridership-wise than expected. I'm still not sure it was needed, but it's there now and at least the highly logical transfer station between it and the Atlantic City line has been opened.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Fair enough. I've actually done work on the 2nd Avenue line for over two years now, and it's very far along. It's still on budget and scheduled to open next new year's day, and at worst may be a few months late while the new-old system's kinks are worked out. The thing is that MTA Capital Construction is fully responsible for new stations and/or construction, not the core agency division that runs the exisiting system and performs routine maintenance.

I tend to think that with the Port Authority, the facilities/crossings/PATH are better-maintained, but expansion/new construction has a better chance of being poorly managed. My firm used to provide C.M. for the World Trade Center, but tapped out several years ago because it was getting too ridiculous. The Gateway Tunnel project, currently in its initial stages to replace & supplement the Hudson rail tunnels, is being done in conjunction between Amtrak and the Port Authority, with the MTA and both NY/NJ on tap for financing (which is how it should have been done in the first place).

And for your information, the Tappan Zee bridge is indeed maintained by the New York State Thruway Authority. The whole reason the bridge was located there was to fall outside the Port Authority's 25 mile "range of influence". The more reasonable $5 one-way toll to cross an exceptionally wide portion of the Hudson River probably explains that as well.

Yes- one thing I would say is the PATH stations are cleaner and have nicer feel than the MTA ones. But, ask most PATH riders, and I think they would tell you they would prefer a few less cleanings to better service.

I think everyone is excited for the 2nd ave line, having it go all the way to Water Street will be clutch.

 

[NotInRHouse]

What a silly post by NIRH:
1. PA is more NY than NJ - the #1 PA employee is always from NY and the #2 is from NJ
2. JC is a joke and has been financially raping the state budget for decades, this all comes to an end with the upcoming tax reassessment - just watch what's going to happen, double or triple property taxes is coming. And FYI, 90% of JC is still a dangerous dump.
3. PATCO is worse than PATH and was built by Dems for the Dems in Camden
4. All unprofitable mass transit routes/times should be stopped - buses and trains - once again, stop wasting taxpayer money and book Uber, problem solved.
5. Fulop is going to jail due to the $1m in blood money to his PAC.

You still don't have a clue.

1. The corruption is all NJ. Who appointed Wildstein, Baroni and Samson again?
2. LMAO, leads the state in job growth and property value increase. Try again.
3. False as others pointed out.
4. LMAO good luck with that
5. Governor Fulop. Start getting used to it. And your gravy train is leaving the station for jail. You best hope Judge Wigenton doesn't release the list of co-conspirators because we all know Christie is one of them.

 

[brista21]

Yes- one thing I would say is the PATH stations are cleaner and have nicer feel than the MTA ones. But, ask most PATH riders, and I think they would tell you they would prefer a few less cleanings to better service.

I think everyone is excited for the 2nd ave line, having it go all the way to Water Street will be clutch.

The Second Avenue line needs to be built with three provisions in place:

1. provisions for a crosstown line along 125th Street
2. provisions for a Bronx extension
3. provisions for a Brooklyn extension

But, having it running will be a huge help to East side travel.

 

[RU_Planning]

What a silly post by NIRH:
1. PA is more NY than NJ - the #1 PA employee is always from NY and the #2 is from NJ
2. JC is a joke and has been financially raping the state budget for decades, this all comes to an end with the upcoming tax reassessment - just watch what's going to happen, double or triple property taxes is coming. And FYI, 90% of JC is still a dangerous dump.
3. PATCO is worse than PATH and was built by Dems for the Dems in Camden
4. All unprofitable mass transit routes/times should be stopped - buses and trains - once again, stop wasting taxpayer money and book Uber, problem solved.
5. Fulop is going to jail due to the $1m in blood money to his PAC.

You still don't have a clue.

#1 - I believe the #1 rotates between NY and NJ, like terms.
#2 - You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Maybe some parts look "dumpy", but that is really a matter of personal preference. I imagine most people wanting to live in an urban environment would find most of the suburban communities "dumpy" too. Jersey divider lined roadways with a bunch of parking lots and 75% filled strip malls is not desirable to everyone.
#3 - Can't speak to PATCO, but as someone else stated it was built almost a century ago.
#4 - Very shortsighted, but not surprising given your other comments. Public transportation is not intended to be "profitable", it is a public good. Are all roadways "profitable"? I think not (are any?). Removal of "unprofitable" public transit will just significantly increase traffic on your precious roadways that you somehow think are "profitable".
#5 - Can't speak to this either, but sounds like typical partisan bickering. As a Christie groupie it is ironic that you are calling for others to go to jail.

 

[T2Kplus10]

1. The corruption is all NJ. Who appointed Wildstein, Baroni and Samson again?
2. LMAO, leads the state in job growth and property value increase. Try again.
3. False as others pointed out.
4. LMAO good luck with that
5. Governor Fulop. Start getting used to it. And your gravy train is leaving the station for jail. You best hope Judge Wigenton doesn't release the list of co-conspirators because we all know Christie is one of them.

HA! JC leads NJ in corruption, including your employer Fulop. Even the wacko liberal SL has been crushing him. Word on the street is he's going to back down and not even run. Also, he's a complete jerk and nobody outside Hudson supports him. The speed of his fall was probably a record.

PA corruption all NJ - perhaps the dumbest comment in the history of this board. Go learn the facts.

And everyone knows who the unindicted co-conspirators are, they are the PA workers that actually closed the lanes. They knew there was no reason or traffic study to do so but never told the authorities. D'uh!

 

[RUsSKii]

The Second Avenue line needs to be built with three provisions in place:

1. provisions for a crosstown line along 125th Street
2. provisions for a Bronx extension
3. provisions for a Brooklyn extension

But, having it running will be a huge help to East side travel.

1. Agreed. This will become possible once Phase 2 is completed from 96 to 125th street, which I'd venture could be happen as early as 2025.
2. I'm not sure whether this would be necessary, since the second avenue line is planned to connect with the 4/5/6 station at 125th Street, where riders would transfer trains to head into the Bronx or connect to Metro-North trains anyways.
3. Agreed. But unfortunately, given the pace of construction, slow capital financing, and local opposition to the blasting/drilling/heavy heavy construction required for this project, I don't see Phases 3 and 4 of the Second Avenue Line (from 63rd Street down to Hanover Square in Fi-Di) being completed for decades..

 

[RutCorRx]

I love how for the PATH staircase it is barely wide enough for two people at a time....you have to honestly question the IQ of the people behind this crap sometimes.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

WTC-HOB used to run on the weekend and there used to be express on the Newark line to WTC during rush hour. I believe the weekend JSQ-33 also did not always stop at HOB.

I moved into Hoboken and started working downtown in 97. I'm pretty damn sure that the Journal Square to 33rd St. train stopped in Hoboken before 9/11 and that the Hoboken/WTC train did not run on weekend (Sat/Sun) nights before 9/11.

 

[RU4Real]

I don't usually agree with T2K, but in this case, he's right. Most of Jersey City is a shithole. To suggest otherwise is just silly.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

Newport, Grove St-downtown towards Exchange-south to waterfront, are all booming. Even the investment market in The Heights continues to get better and better. It's going to be interesting to see what happened to Journal Square once all the new high-rises are done there. Anyway I can't come close to agreeing with the "90%" crap being thrown out by T2K. Yes, Jersey City has its issues, no question about it, but the nightlife that has sprung up, is actually pretty damn good, and IMHO that's a true testament to the fact that people aren't just living and jworking there, they're hanging out there now, too. Iit's a world of a difference from even 5 years ago let alone 10.

 

[RU4Real]

Newport, Grove St-downtown towards Exchange-south to waterfront, are all booming. Even the investment market in The Heights continues to get better and better. It's going to be interesting to see what happened to Journal Square once all the new high-rises are done there. Anyway I can't come close to agreeing with the "90%" crap being thrown out by T2K. Yes, Jersey City has its issues, no question about it, but the nightlife that has sprung up, is actually pretty damn good, and IMHO that's a true testament to the fact that people aren't just living and jworking there, they're hanging out there now, too. Iit's a world of a difference from even 5 years ago let alone 10.

Everything east of 78 is Beirut.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

Everything east of 78 is Beirut.

I think you mean west of 78, and you're right for the most part, but that's still nowhere close to 90% of the city. I think you'd be very surprised if you went downtown, or to Grove Street, or to Newport, on a Thursday or Friday or Saturday or Sunday evening. Even later at night to be honest.

 

[RU4Real]

I think you mean west of 78, and you're right for the most part, but that's still nowhere close to 90% of the city. I think you'd be very surprised if you went downtown, or to Grove Street, or to Newport, on a Thursday or Friday or Saturday or Sunday evening. Even later at night to be honest.

Yes - I did mean "west". Sorry.

And if it's not 90% of the city, then just eyeballing it from the map it's an easy 2/3+.

And I'm in JC almost every day, for the record. I've been in or through Jersey City at least 50 days a year for the last 22 years. The parking attendants at the private lot on Columbus between Grove and Barrow can recite for you the last 7 cars i've owned (I know this because one of them did it just the other day).

 

[AreYouNUTS]

Yes - I did mean "west". Sorry.

And if it's not 90% of the city, then just eyeballing it from the map it's an easy 2/3+.

And I'm in JC almost every day, for the record. I've been in or through Jersey City at least 50 days a year for the last 22 years. The parking attendants at the private lot on Columbus between Grove and Barrow can recite for you the last 7 cars i've owned (I know this because one of them did it just the other day).

I've got no reason not to believe you. All good. What's really crazy is I have actually shown some clients, or potential ones, both investment properties and rental units in the Journal Square area already, and I'm talking clients who, in the past, would've invested, or lived, in Hoboken or Jersey City areas that we were speaking of, previously. Could be interesting to see what happens up there. A lot more work needs to be done

Crazy stat is something like 5000 new condo units completed construction, in the Newport/Grove/downtown area, in like a 15 month stretch that ended about a year and a half ago. Another huge number like that is gonna come up in the next year to year and a half again.

 

[RU4Real]

I've got no reason not to believe you. All good. What's really crazy is I have actually shown some clients, or potential ones, both investment properties and rental units in the Journal Square area already, and I'm talking clients who, in the past, would've invested, or lived, in Hoboken or Jersey City areas that we were speaking of, previously. Could be interesting to see what happens up there. A lot more work needs to be done

Crazy stat is something like 5000 new condo units completed construction, in the Newport/Grove/downtown area, in like a 15 month stretch that ended about a year and a half ago. Another huge number like that is gonna come up in the next year to year and a half again.

Right? And yet the PATH trains are overcrowded and there's nowhere to park. All those new residents are either going to have really short leashes or really big Uber bills.

When my oldest daughter was in high school she used to have to run at the armory a couple times a year during winter track season. The meets were generally all day long and at some point the girls would get bored and go off in search of carbs.

Trying to herd a bunch of Catholic schoolgirls from Monmouth County through that neighborhood was always good times.

 

[T2Kplus10]

T2K has Patco confused with the River Line (which, by the way, was built for a Republican.) PATCO has existed since the 1930s; it originally was a private rail line. It was expanded in the late 1960s to cover more of South Jersey. Without PATCO, the Ben Franklin Bridge would be crowded even more than it is.

The River Line was built by one person and one person that is a Democrat, his name is George Norcross. Look him up. And I was correct talking about PATCO.

 

[T2Kplus10]

I think you mean west of 78, and you're right for the most part, but that's still nowhere close to 90% of the city. I think you'd be very surprised if you went downtown, or to Grove Street, or to Newport, on a Thursday or Friday or Saturday or Sunday evening. Even later at night to be honest.

90% is a dump. No doubt, and extremely dangerous. And just wait for the upcoming revaluation/reassessment process. Property taxes will skyrocket and the yuppie flight will be breathtaking. No more building and live in JC on the back of other NJ taxpayers.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

90% is a dump. No doubt, and extremely dangerous. And just wait for the upcoming revaluation/reassessment process. Property taxes will skyrocket and the yuppie flight will be breathtaking. No more building and live in JC on the back of other NJ taxpayers.

Okay. Think what you'd like.

 

[retired711]

The River Line was built by one person and one person that is a Democrat, his name is George Norcross. Look him up. And I was correct talking about PATCO.

No, you weren't correct talking about Patco -- you were making it up as usual. I notice you're incapable of saying *how* you were right about PATCO, which makes me think that even you know you don't know what you're talking about. And it was Burlington County representatives who wanted the River Line, and it's Burlington County that benefits. And the Burlington County state senator who sponsored the bill was a Republican.

Or, as Nuts just wrote, "think what you like." It really doesn't affect me what you think.

 

[retired711]

I don't press your intellectual capacities too far, but the Wilkipedia article below will tell you that C. William Haines was the state senator who sponsored the River Line bill. And if you're able to google his name, you'll find he was a Republican.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Line_(New_Jersey_Transit)

 

[T2Kplus10]

No, you weren't correct talking about Patco -- you were making it up as usual. I notice you're incapable of saying *how* you were right about PATCO, which makes me think that even you know you don't know what you're talking about. And it was Burlington County representatives who wanted the River Line, and it's Burlington County that benefits. And the Burlington County state senator who sponsored the bill was a Republican.

Or, as Nuts just wrote, "think what you like." It really doesn't affect me what you think.

Wow, you really don't know about NJ politics. Norcross wanted the River Line and got the River Line. During those years, tons of Norcross money went to Burlington and Norcross actively prevented certain Dems from running against the Reps. As such, they eagerly played along. Good grief, not your finest hour here.

 

[RUfromSoCal?]

Too bad Trump couldn't get Mexico to pay for it.

 

[retired711]

Wow, you really don't know about NJ politics. Norcross wanted the River Line and got the River Line. During those years, tons of Norcross money went to Burlington and Norcross actively prevented certain Dems from running against the Reps. As such, they eagerly played along. Good grief, not your finest hour here.

I think at this point what you need is what lawyers call "evidence." I do remember there was a long piece in the Philadelphia Inquirer about the time the River Line started about how it made no transit sense and about its origins. The Inquirer's search engine on-line is so pathetic that there's no way to find it on there. Let me see what I can do to find it off-line. I definitely know that the Republican machine in Burlington County wanted it; maybe you're right that Norcross played a role. While the Inquirer story cannot prove that he did not, maybe it will show he did.

 

[T2Kplus10]

I think at this point what you need is what lawyers call "evidence." I do remember there was a long piece in the Philadelphia Inquirer about the time the River Line started about how it made no transit sense and about its origins. The Inquirer's search engine on-line is so pathetic that there's no way to find it on there. Let me see what I can do to find it off-line. I definitely know that the Republican machine in Burlington County wanted it; maybe you're right that Norcross played a role. While the Inquirer story cannot prove that he did not, maybe it will show he did.

Absolutely, the River Line makes no sense and should be ended. Norcross used the Lynch playbook from the 90's. Lynch bought several R legislators and protected them as long as they played ball and got Whitman and the R majority to pass what he needed. Once the Dems took over with the new 2001 map, they all "retired" with great jobs to make way for his handed picked D replacement. And then a few years later, he went to jail. Perhaps the same thing will happen with Norcross! :)

 

[srru86]

4. All unprofitable mass transit routes/times should be stopped - buses and trains

Sure thing, as soon as all roadways that can't be built and maintained by revenues generated by the gas tax generated from their users are shut down.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Sure thing, as soon as all roadways that can't be built and maintained by revenues generated by the gas tax generated from their users are shut down.

Silly post. Mass transit only serves a small portion of the pop, unlike roads. Stop double downing on wasteful mass transit lines/routes. By the way, many are profitable, cut the losers, especially overnight services.

 

[NotInRHouse]

The best parts about T2K-

- He insists Jersey City is a dump, yet never identifies where he lives. Unless he lives in a Rumson or Basking Ridge type place (really doubtful based on his level of intelligence), or on the beach, most condos in Jersey City would outvalue a local condo near him if not most homes.

- He advocates "ending" all public transportation, when consensus outside the Christie administration is all on expanding it. And he of course cannot compute that public transportation costs a fraction of roads, bridges, etc.

- He has no understanding of the Abbott decision or how property taxes function in the slightest regard. It is interesting that he is very concerned with taxes in Jersey City which have no bearing on the taxes in wherever his (yet unidentified) community is. There isn't even a such thing as an Abbott district anymore, but even if there were, he seems oddly unconcerned with the 30 other districts subject to the original decision.

- It's funny, Bridgegate went from "there was a traffic study" to "there was no traffic study but Christie didn't know anything" to "Christie didn't know just one of his appointees who is no longer credible because of his 7th grade social studies teacher orchestrated it with another Christie employee and Christie appointee"....just wait till the phone records show that call to Cuomo about the traffic study he knew nothing of, nevermind Samson, nevermind the illegal rerouting of the Pulaski Skyway money, speaking of roads....

And now the national Republicans are witnessing what all but 29% of New Jerseyans have been saying, that Christie is an opportunistic, not-conservative, not-liberal, but all about himself, corrupt piece of garbage that belongs in prison. He now is attacking Marco Rubio and sinking any chance of Republicans winning the presidency only because he thought Marco disrespected him, just like he hugged Obama in fear of his own reelection. He is everything that is wrong with American politics and NJ politics.

And LOL I don't work for Fulop but T2K doesn't work for a polling agency. Christie has guaranteed Democratic control of NJ for a good decade and Democrats increased their majority based on his failed governorship. It is sad when you consider how much every other surrounding state has recovered while NJ Christie yells about mops and closes bridge lanes and other politicians do their jobs.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Right? And yet the PATH trains are overcrowded and there's nowhere to park. All those new residents are either going to have really short leashes or really big Uber bills.

When my oldest daughter was in high school she used to have to run at the armory a couple times a year during winter track season. The meets were generally all day long and at some point the girls would get bored and go off in search of carbs.

Trying to herd a bunch of Catholic schoolgirls from Monmouth County through that neighborhood was always good times.

Unless you work in the suburbs, the need for cars in most of Jersey City is minimal.

 

[RU fan forever]

The, Best, Architect, since,Tom Wright, a Man with incredible vision, he transformed old Athens(Greece) to a modern functional metropolis, without loosing the charm; and character,of a true ancient and magnificent city!!!