OT: NYC Congestion Pricing is back

[mildone]

There are cities not even reporting crime to teh FBI for their UCR anymore... I'd call that inaccurate. And if they won't do that, do you really think they don't massage data to help themselves look better?


How about this.. I'll play your little game and use the data and crime rates you seem to rely on.

I'll even limit the data to cities.. though I think a better test, which would surely come out supporting my argument, would be to take enough small rural towns to come up with a population base of 9 million like NYC and then compare crime rates.

But I'll settle for 10 conservative-leaning cities with populations over 250K (since there are only a dozen or so total). And then pick, not cherry-picked because the Pew list has no reference to crime in any way and I am picking consecutive cities whose graphic representation mirrors that of the conservative cities, This list from Pew Research from 2014. Cleveland, the first on the liberal side, seems to be as liberal as Mesa is conservative. The remaining on each list become successive less conservative or less liberal.

Here's the data of ten cities on each side:

CONSERVATIVE LEAN	POP	VIOLENT CRIMES		RATE
Mesa AZ	518160	1953		0.003769106068
OK City, OK	657890	4751		0.007221571995
VA Beach VA	449038	581		0.001293877133
CO Spring CO	479648	2806		0.005850123424
Jax FL	909142	5886		0.006474236148
Arlington TX	402304	2055		0.005108077474
Anaheim CA	353915	1120		0.00316460167
Omaha NE	470481	2883		0.006127771366
Tulsa OK	401700	3964		0.009868060742
Aurora CO	380600	2799		0.007354177614
TOTALS	5022878	28798		0.005733366409
	POP
LIBERAL LEAN		VIOLENT CRIMES		RATE
Cleveland, OH;	381829	5791		0.01516647505
Kansas City, MO	495964	7099		0.01431353889
Honolulu HI	974902	2638		0.002705913005
San Diego, CA	1441737	5215		0.003617164573
Memphis, TN	650410	12367		0.0190141603
Sacramento, CA	513934	3223		0.006271233271
San Jose, CA	1040008	4559		0.004383620126
Raleigh, NC	477828	1222		0.002557405594
Long Beach, CA	467974	2369		0.005062247048
Milwaukee, WI	590923	7874		0.01332491712
TOTALS	7035509	52357		0.007441821196
0.0074 - 0.0057 = 0.0017 higher violent crime rate in 2019 as reported in FBI UCR
Thats a 31% higher crime rate for those in liberal cities

Any questions?

Do you really need me to do this but list cities that prosecute criminals versus sanctuary cities that do not?

Do you need me to look at old data for Aurora Colorado vs this year's stats?

Wake up.

Meh.. not sure why I bother.. the UCR is incomplete at best.. blatantly manipulated at worst.. linky

That's an entirely political post. I have zero interest interest in politics, in liberals vs conservatives, etc. First of all, that's stuff that supposed to be on the CE board, not out here. Secondly, I just don't care about it and never did.

Bac used to say, when I was on the CE board, that I wasn't arguing in good faith. I mean, duh. Of course I wasn't arguing in good faith. I was there for only one reason, to have fun messing with all you politically obsessed people. I never had any interest in engaging in the same endlessly repeating stupid debates about stuff nobody on the CE board, including me, is remotely qualified to judge.

Y'all have fun with that. But I'm just never going to be interested.

You want to discuss crime and information, fine, up to a point. Filter out all the nutty politics and I might participate for a bit. But soon as anybody brings up ideologies or parties or all that BS, I'm out.

 

[mdk01]

I wasn't looking to make things political, or choose sides. Everything you just said supports what I said.

I cited 4 objective facts and what those facts say about accountability in the US. There was a judge, rules of evidence, the best defense lawyers money can buy, and a jury chosen in accordance with our justice system. The jury saw only evidence that passed our justice system's strict rules of evidence. The jury arrived at a guilty verdict.

These are not left or right leaning facts. Just objective facts. Voters ignored that evidence-based verdict and decided not to hold the guilty party (guilty according to our justice system) accountable.

All the political narratives surrounding these facts is CE board material and utterly uninteresting to me, doesn't matter if they're narratives from the left or right. Just not interested in people's narratives.

Two things will be my only comments . I believe change of venue was rejected by the judge. So it was a Manhattan jury with their proclivities. I believe the were objections denied, of course Trump's obnoxiousness out of the courtroom didn't help.

 

[mildone]

Two things will be my only comments . I believe change of venue was rejected by the judge. So it was a Manhattan jury with their proclivities. I believe the were objections denied, of course Trump's obnoxiousness out of the courtroom didn't help.

He will have the opportunity to appeal, like anybody else.

I’m not making a political statement here. Not defending or attacking politicians in NYC or DC or anyplace else. I have no interest in doing that sort of thing.

My only point is that accountability issues are not restricted to NYC politicians. It’s a widespread problem that starts at the top and exists everywhere. People with political biases will always produce narratives to absolve politicians on their chosen side of wrong-doing. Is the same with some people on both sides.

Doing that, regardless of which side is doing it, is not accountability. And it’s gotten much worse in my lifetime.

What it seems most people want is accountability only from the other side. Which is no kind of accountability at all.

 

[ashokan]

I wasn't looking to make things political, or choose sides. Everything you just said supports what I said.

I cited 4 objective facts and what those facts say about accountability in the US. There was a judge, rules of evidence, the best defense lawyers money can buy, and a jury chosen in accordance with our justice system. The jury saw only evidence that passed our justice system's strict rules of evidence. The jury arrived at a guilty verdict.

These are not left or right leaning facts. Just objective facts. Voters ignored that evidence-based verdict and decided not to hold the guilty party (guilty according to our justice system) accountable.

All the political narratives surrounding these facts is CE board material and utterly uninteresting to me, doesn't matter if they're narratives from the left or right. Just not interested in people's narratives.

Yes you were - your "above it all" narrative never really works lol
You have no idea of what the facts were.
They lawfare has failed everywhere and the response from the perps is to target SCOTUS for annihilation - not to mention the half the country they hate.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

That's an entirely political post. I have zero interest interest in politics, in liberals vs conservatives, etc. First of all, that's stuff that supposed to be on the CE board, not out here. Secondly, I just don't care about it and never did.

Bac used to say, when I was on the CE board, that I wasn't arguing in good faith. I mean, duh. Of course I wasn't arguing in good faith. I was there for only one reason, to have fun messing with all you politically obsessed people. I never had any interest in engaging in the same endlessly repeating stupid debates about stuff nobody on the CE board, including me, is remotely qualified to judge.

Y'all have fun with that. But I'm just never going to be interested.

You want to discuss crime and information, fine, up to a point. Filter out all the nutty politics and I might participate for a bit. But soon as anybody brings up ideologies or parties or all that BS, I'm out.

So.. moving the goalposts.

What if I prefaced it, as you did later with, "I'm not make a political statement".. would that mean you could take my post to refute what you asserted about per capita crime numbers?

You used a reference to per capita crime numbers to claim that people complaining about crime are just wrong to do so.. because per capita crime data showed the city was safer than.. what? Some cherry-picked town elsewhere?

Lets compare NYC and a name at random from flyover country.. how about Dubuque, Iowa.. lets see...

2019 (last year FBI has)
NYC 8,379,043 47,821 violent crimes.. 0.0057 rate
Dubuque 57,973 110.. 0.00189 way less than half

Let's try someplace more urban.. how about in the same state.. Buffalo..

255,686 people 2533 violent crimes.. 0.0099 whoa.. NYC is nearly half

How about Albany.. 0.0075 rate.. more than NYC.
Yonkers.. 200,075.. 708 violent crimes.. 0.0035 much less than NYC

Orlando, FL 292,120.. 2,157.. 0.0073 more than NYC.. go Florida man!

Its all mostly meaningless because different states require different levels of reporting... different police departments have different abilities and standards in charging, prosecuting and reporting to the FBI.

Crime Rates.. per capita crime rates.. are only used to change the argument from stuff like why violent criminals are not charged properly and are released from custody to attack more citizens.

Using the FBI tool.. LINKY to Crime Data Explorer

I made a graph of ten years of violent crime in NYC.. and, gee, when did illegal immigration boom in NYC? Anecdotal stories of crime in NYC are not mirrored by per capita crime rates as pushed by big media and Democrat administrations in New York and DC? Oh.. right.. that's political... how about this.. Eric Adams became mayor Jan 1 2022 and suddenly the data corrected itself from 2021's obviously bad data. What was that about? Politics?

 

[NotInRHouse]

I own several apartments in NYC and usually always defend Manhattan. It's not as bad as the 70-80's but to be honest it's not like before DiBlasio. NY's problem is that few people vote in the primaries so it gets stuck with poor choices in the city council, etc. No accountability.

Crime was lower under DeBlasio than disbarred Rudy.

It went up in 2020 nationally because of "leadership" or lack thereof.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Two things will be my only comments . I believe change of venue was rejected by the judge. So it was a Manhattan jury with their proclivities. I believe the were objections denied, of course Trump's obnoxiousness out of the courtroom didn't help.

That pesky Constitution in the way again!

The Constitution mandates trials in the jurisdiction where they occured.

Why should a trial for acts committed in Manhattan not be tried there? You have to show it would be unfair. Politics is not a reason.

And, it's sure interesting that I did not see anyone complaining when Menendez was tried in SDNY and NJ federal court in Newark which draw from mostly deeply Democratic areas. Was that unfair?

How about Eric Adams...should he be tried in West Virginia? Or Long Island?

 

[ru66]

I'd argue that what you're describing is not limited to NYC. The entire country, and perhaps much of the developed world, is teeming with poor political choices and a pronounced lack of accountability.

I mean, we just elected a twice-impeached convicted felon to be president of the United States. Putting aside how people feel about the House votes or the jury's verdict, it inescapably points to the fact that more voters in our country believe in narratives than in our justice system with all its checks and balances.

It's logically impossible to reconcile that reality with a nation that believes in accountability.

When one party-- and I don't care which-- has a stranglehold on a city and it's politicians have no fear of being thrown out of office due to bad decisions , you get what's happening in NYC. This has no relationship to the recent presidential election. So few people vote , it literally takes less than 25% to get you elected in a NYC. Bringing Trump into the discussion is ridiculous.

 

[mildone]

When one party-- and I don't care which-- has a stranglehold on a city and it's politicians have no fear of being thrown out of office due to bad decisions , you get what's happening in NYC. This has no relationship to the recent presidential election. So few people vote , it literally takes less than 25% to get you elected in a NYC. Bringing Trump into the discussion is ridiculous.

Nonsense. The subject of the post to which I responded was accountability. All I did was point out that NYC’s accountability situation is common everywhere, including at the federal level. And I provided a 100% factual example.

You don’t see me trying to shut down conversation of NYC accountability, or defending NYC politicians. Why are you trying to shut down conversation about other cities or politicians? That’s what’s ridiculous.

Cities all over the country have single-party strangleholds. It’s not just NYC, which again was my while point.

 

[ru66]

Nonsense. The subject of the post to which I responded was accountability. All I did was point out that NYC’s accountability situation is common everywhere, including at the federal level. And I provided a 100% factual example.

You don’t see me trying to shut down conversation of NYC accountability, or defending NYC politicians. Why are you trying to shut down conversation about other cities or politicians? That’s what’s ridiculous.

Cities all over the country have single-party strangleholds. It’s not just NYC, which again was my while point.

Did you forget that over 150 Americans voted in our election . They made their choice and there was accountability ,like it or not, they're getting rid of the current administration.

 

[fsg2]

Did you forget that over 150 Americans voted in our election . They made their choice and there was accountability ,like it or not, they're getting rid of the current administration.

I sure hope over 150 Americans voted, especially for pres! 😜

 

[mildone]

Did you forget that over 150 Americans voted in our election . They made their choice and there was accountability ,like it or not, they're getting rid of the current administration.

People voted for the politicians in NYC too. Does that mean there’s accountability in NYC after all?

People only want accountability for the folks they didn’t vote for. Which, like I said, is no kind of accountability at all. It’s tribalism. It’s stupid and harmful to our nation. It sucks.

Me, I want accountability for everyone, regardless of their political affiliations. ‘Cause I’m not interested in being in anybody’s dumb ass tribe.

 

[mildone]

I sure hope over 150 Americans voted, especially for pres! 😜

I didn’t want to get sidetracked with his typo after he so helpfully illustrated my point for me. But yeah. 😀

 

[ru66]

I sure hope over 150 Americans voted, especially for pres! 😜

What a dumb comment-- people who know anything know over 150 million voted-- only an asshole or d bag needs to point out a meaningless gotcha.

 

[fsg2]

What a dumb comment-- people who know anything know over 150 million voted-- only an asshole or d bag needs to point out a meaningless gotcha.

Only an asshole takes himself that seriously and doesn't know how to emoji.

Lighten up.

 

[ru66]

People voted for the politicians in NYC too. Does that mean there’s accountability in NYC after all?

People only want accountability for the folks they didn’t vote for. Which, like I said, is no kind of accountability at all. It’s tribalism. It’s stupid and harmful to our nation. It sucks.

Me, I want accountability for everyone, regardless of their political affiliations. ‘Cause I’m not interested in being in anybody’s dumb ass tribe.

This is it for me arguing with someone with an agenda like yourself. If you don't understand that when less than 25% of those eligible to vote in a primary fail to do so that there is a problem,then good for you. I agree that voters get what they deserve and as far as N.YC is concerned a city council and NYS senate that leave much to be desired, that have little accountability . Goodnight Gracie.

 

[iReC89]

I didn’t want to get sidetracked with his typo after he so helpfully illustrated my point for me. But yeah. 😀

There is no main track on these threads. This belongs in the dark place.

 

[mildone]

This is it for me arguing with someone with an agenda like yourself. If you don't understand that when less than 25% of those eligible to vote in a primary fail to do so that there is a problem,then good for you. I agree that voters get what they deserve and as far as N.YC is concerned a city council and NYS senate that leave much to be desired, that have little accountability . Goodnight Gracie.

Wait, you think I’m the one with an agenda? 🤣

 

[mildone]

There is no main track on these threads. This belongs in the dark place.

I agree.

 

[Rutgers NJ]

Sounds like you've never actually been there.

And you would be wrong,big time.
My wife and I go into the city a couple of times a summer to see Broadway shows before the sun goes down,lol. Also we meet my son at his office along Bryant Park, checking out the little shops around the ice rink during Christmas every year for the last 11 years, so I think I prove you wrong mildone,bigtime.

 

[mildone]

And you would be wrong,big time.
My wife and I go into the city a couple of times a summer to see Broadway shows before the sun goes down,lol. Also we meet my son at his office along Bryant Park, checking out the little shops around the ice rink during Christmas every year for the last 11 years, so I think I prove you wrong mildone,bigtime.

Nah.

 

[Rutgers NJ]

Nah.

Can't fix stupid and the border was secure also I'm sure you think,too funny.

 

[mildone]

Can't fix stupid and the border was secure also I'm sure you think,too funny.

Que que?

 

[OTBOTOR]

As someone who works in Manhattan and spends a lot of personal time there and in the boroughs, this thread is hilarious 😂

 

[NotInRHouse]

As someone who works in Manhattan and spends a lot of personal time there and in the boroughs, this thread is hilarious 😂

But you don't spend time in the cul de sacs to know the real experts on urban living, and how desperately Manhattanites need parking spaces and how scared they are go outside, and how they wished they all lived in Alabama.

 

[29PAS]

As someone who works in Manhattan and spends a lot of personal time there and in the boroughs, this thread is hilarious 😂

As someone who has lived in Manhattan for 40, I totally agree with you.

 

[Tango Two]

Here’s how you can get discounts on the new $9 toll to enter Lower Manhattan​

Here’s how you can get discounts on the new $9 toll to enter Lower Manhattan

Two congestion pricing issues remain for drivers before a $9 toll can be charged to enter Manhattan starting Jan. 5.

www.nj.com