OT: NJ Gov't to shut down #1 Disc Golf course in NJ

[ruinac]

Also - almost all of the holes are heavily wooded with foot paths, but nowhere to set up a picnic, per se, without being a bit in the way of disc golfers and/or hikers, who also use the paths. There are a few open field holes and there's plenty of space on those to picnic on the grass but out of the fairway, which could be a little dangerous (not deadly, but nobody wants to get hit in the head with a smaller heavier frisbee, which is what we use). No reason both can't coexist at all at Stafford and most courses.

My question was can Voohees designate the grounds to be used for disc use under the passive use rules. Yessir and you gave informative replies but went in a slightly different direction. But your reply raises a new question. If disc golf makes it a little dangerous for
people to passively use sections of the designated land, doesn’t that support the argument that disc golf is active use?

 

[yessir321]

Hook, line, and sinker! And all over throwing frisbees. LOL!

Wife not giving you enough attention I see…

 

[yessir321]

The NJDEP Regs for active and passive use are modeled from the EPA regulations. According to this article, golf is considered an active use based on the article linked below. If golf is considered an active use, I would strongly believe that disk golf is also active.
http://www.citymtb.org/home/understanding-active-passive-recreational-uses-part-1#:~:text=Passive recreation refers to recreational activities that do,and are highly compatible with natural resource protection

Not the same thing at all. Traditional golf requires heavy landscaping, fertilizers, pesticides, etc. none of which is required in disc golf.

The environmental impact between the two is incomparable. Mountain biking is closer in terms of environmental impact to disc golf (signs, easements built) than traditional golf. Really the only similarity is that ‘golf’ is in the name

 

[yessir321]

My question was can Voohees designate the grounds to be used for disc use under the passive use rules. Yessir and you gave informative replies but went in a slightly different direction. But your reply raises a new question. If disc golf makes it a little dangerous for
people to passively use sections of the designated land, doesn’t that support the argument that disc golf is active use?

No more dangerous than a horse riding trail and a horse biting a passerby which happens about as frequently as someone getting hit with a disc.

For some context, I’ve played disc golf for 17 years at this point multiple times per week, I’ve been hit twice with a disc

 

[ruinac]

No more dangerous than a horse riding trail and a horse biting a passerby which happens about as frequently as someone getting hit with a disc.

For some context, I’ve played disc golf for 17 years at this point multiple times per week, I’ve been hit twice with a disc

That‘s not a comparison you want to make. Unless you want disc golfers to pay for the required permits, abide by the laws and regulations, and accept the liability risks that come with trail riding.

 

[mdk01]

My question was can Voohees designate the grounds to be used for disc use under the passive use rules. Yessir and you gave informative replies but went in a slightly different direction. But your reply raises a new question. If disc golf makes it a little dangerous for
people to passively use sections of the designated land, doesn’t that support the argument that disc golf is active use?

Dangerous.? This isn't Top Job playing with his hat.

 

[ruinac]

Dangerous.? This isn't Top Job playing with his hat.

Numbers said it can be a “little dangerous” for a picnicker to be out on the course and get hit. He knows better than me if it is.

 

[yessir321]

That‘s not a comparison you want to make. Unless you want disc golfers to pay for the required permits, abide by the laws and regulations, and accept the liability risks that come with trail riding.

That’s exactly what disc golfers already do when they throw their discs in a public park. Even if that park is ‘active use’. Not the permits aspect but if a disc golfer hits another park goer the disc golfer is 100% liable.

 

[RU to the Core]

Probably the funniest post of this entire thread. Bethpage? LOL. Let's all try to keep proper perspective here.

From a perspective of economics, notoriety and history. Agree. Comical. But to the disc golf community it’s on that level and someone posted number of rounds played so it’s also on that level. Not as comical if you frame it from a usage and quality of course standpoint.

 

[RU848789]

My question was can Voohees designate the grounds to be used for disc use under the passive use rules. Yessir and you gave informative replies but went in a slightly different direction. But your reply raises a new question. If disc golf makes it a little dangerous for
people to passively use sections of the designated land, doesn’t that support the argument that disc golf is active use?

The active/passive use categories are essentially about environmental impact, not how "active" someone is doing the activity. Disc golf typically has a near zero environmental impact from installation through operation, as the tees and baskets take up a tiny footprint (normally < 0.01% of the area) and they're simply placed within the natural, unaltered environment without disturbing that environment at all, unlike ball golf, which completely changes acres and acres of any environment and unlike field sports, like football, baseball, soccer, etc., which require clearing an entire area of flora for installation of a field. And disc golf doesn't impact the environment at all by playing it - it's like hiking with occasional throwing of a disc. The link below does a nice job of detailing all of this.

http://www.citymtb.org/home/understanding-active-passive-recreational-uses-part-1

With regard to the "dangers" of disc golf, like other passive uses, such as bicycling and cross country skiing, disc golf does require the player to ensure that he doesn't endanger non-players with throws, which is pretty simple to do; cyclists also need to ensure their activity doesn't harm non-cyclists (collisions do happen). I've never been hit by a disc nor hit anyone, whereas I've been hit by golf balls a few times, with one time having a bad bone bruise that put me out of commission for a couple of days. There's no doubt in my mind that disc golf should be defined as a passive use.

 

[yessir321]

The active/passive use categories are essentially about environmental impact, not how "active" someone is doing the activity. Disc golf typically has a near zero environmental impact from installation through operation, as the tees and baskets take up a tiny footprint (normally < 0.01% of the area) and they're simply placed within the natural, unaltered environment without disturbing that environment at all, unlike ball golf, which completely changes acres and acres of any environment and unlike field sports, like football, baseball, soccer, etc., which require clearing an entire area of flora for installation of a field. And disc golf doesn't impact the environment at all by playing it - it's like hiking with occasional throwing of a disc. The link below does a nice job of detailing all of this.

http://www.citymtb.org/home/understanding-active-passive-recreational-uses-part-1

With regard to the "dangers" of disc golf, like other passive uses, such as bicycling and cross country skiing, disc golf does require the player to ensure that he doesn't endanger non-players with throws, which is pretty simple to do; cyclists also need to ensure their activity doesn't harm non-cyclists (collisions do happen). I've never been hit by a disc nor hit anyone, whereas I've been hit by golf balls a few times, with one time having a bad bone bruise that put me out of commission for a couple of days. There's no doubt in my mind that disc golf should be defined as a passive use.

Pending Closure of Stafford Woods Disc Golf Course Could Set Precedent for Recreation on Preserved Spaces

Deed restrictions limiting uses on the historic farmland could shut down the top-ranked disc golf course in New Jersey. Voorhees officials await a ruling from the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection, while players are anxiously organizing. By Matt Skoufalos | August 30, 2023

www.njpen.com

Not sure if you saw this, extremely thorough article with updates.

I don’t wanna keep the pressure off, but my god we might just pull this off!

 

[batts]

Not the same thing at all. Traditional golf requires heavy landscaping, fertilizers, pesticides, etc. none of which is required in disc golf.

The environmental impact between the two is incomparable. Mountain biking is closer in terms of environmental impact to disc golf (signs, easements built) than traditional golf. Really the only similarity is that ‘golf’ is in the name

I googled photos of the disc course and noticed a lot of grass fairways on the course which is very similar to the impact of golf course (mowing, fertilizers, etc). The main difference between golf courses and disc courses may be the size of fairways. I did notice, however, that a lot of the Stafford disc course is comprised of woodland. Sounds like a hybrid active / passisve use.

 

[RU848789]

I googled photos of the disc course and noticed a lot of grass fairways on the course which is very similar to the impact of golf course (mowing, fertilizers, etc). The main difference between golf courses and disc courses may the size of fairways. I did notice, however, that a lot of the Stafford disc course is comprised of woodland. Sounds like a hybrid active / passisve use.

Rather than presuming by googling photos, maybe ask questions of people who play there. There are 4 holes that were put into open spaces that existed way before the course was put in, so they're not maintained as part of the course - they're maintained as part of the overall property by the town and have zero similarity to a golf course, as the town simply mows parts of the area weekly to about 4-6" and lets the rest of the grasslands just grow wild (to 2-3 feet in most spots). No fertilizers. Huge difference between that and watered/daily-mowed manicured golf fairways.

So, again, with regard to environmental impact of the disc golf course, it's essentially 0.0 (i.e., passive use from an env perspective), since the course was simply installed in the woodlands (14 holes) and grassy areas (4 holes) that have existed as they are for decades and the course didn't change any of that.

 

[batts]

Rather than presuming by googling photos, maybe ask questions of people who play there. There are 4 holes that were put into open spaces that existed way before the course was put in, so they're not maintained as part of the course - they're maintained as part of the overall property by the town and have zero similarity to a golf course, as the town simply mows parts of the area weekly to about 4-6" and lets the rest of the grasslands just grow wild (to 2-3 feet in most spots). No fertilizers. Huge difference between that and watered/daily-mowed manicured golf fairways.

So, again, with regard to environmental impact of the disc golf course, it's essentially 0.0 (i.e., passive use from an env perspective), since the course was simply installed in the woodlands (14 holes) and grassy areas (4 holes) that have existed as they are for decades and the course didn't change any of that.

I don't know anyone who plays disc golf at all, Sport. My circle of acquaintances only play traditional golf. I also don't care about the outcome of the closure of the course. The tone of your post makes you sound like a condecending jerk.

I did come up with a major difference between real golf and disc golf that supports your argument, that being the use of golf carts on regular golf courses. You don't have to bother to thank me. That's a freebie.

 

[RU848789]

I don't know anyone who plays disc golf at all, Sport. My circle of acquaintances only play traditional golf. I also don't care about the outcome of the closure of the course. The tone of your post makes you sound like a condecending jerk.

I did come up with a major difference between real golf and disc golf that supports your argument, that being the use of golf carts on regular golf courses. You don't have to bother to thank me. That's a freebie.

Sorry, yeah that was a bit condenscending...and yes, carts is another difference.

As an aside, I started playing disc golf and ball golf as a teen in the late 70s and became addicted to disc golf in the early 80s, but got tired of playing the same course all the time (RU - there were no other courses within 90 minutes back then), so I switched my addiction to ball golf in the mid-80s and played tons more ball golf until just a couple of years ago, when I got re-addicted to disc golf during COVID. Haven't played much ball golf in 5+ years, but thinking about jumping back in.

All a long way to say, you might want to try DG, as lots of golfers enjoy both. The things I love about DG vs. ball golf are that it usually only takes 1.5-2 hours to play, it's free to play and way less expensive for "equipment," it's a more enjoyable walk in nature and it's more casual with less annoying people.

 

[kupuna133]

Sorry, yeah that was a bit condenscending...and yes, carts is another difference.

Is there a fee to play this course? Is there revenue for the park system?

 

[tom1944]

Disney World has a foot course where you use a soccer ball

Are there course’s around here?

 

[newell138]

I’m in Marlton about 15 minutes away.

I’m not a disc golfer but I won’t be visiting this guys winery after this. He seems to be really full of himself and clearly had no regard for the local community.

I think you’re underestimating the impact here. I’ve seen multiple local/popular businesses (Kibitz Room, Tonewood Brewery) pushing out the petition and once something like this gets going on social media it can take a life of its on.

Not unlike what happened to the Toms from Vanderpump rules when people found out one of them was cheating on his partner with her best friend. It ruined their bar.

'Vanderpump Rules' Fans Have Started Leaving Horrible Yelp Reviews After Tom Sandoval's Cheating Scandal

"Please direct ur anger towards me and not them," Sandoval says.

www.delish.com

 

[yessir321]

I googled photos of the disc course and noticed a lot of grass fairways on the course which is very similar to the impact of golf course (mowing, fertilizers, etc). The main difference between golf courses and disc courses may be the size of fairways. I did notice, however, that a lot of the Stafford disc course is comprised of woodland. Sounds like a hybrid active / passisve use.

The grass you see is primarily the grass just natural to the terrain. Some active use parks will fertilize grass areas if it’s included in the budget, the same as they do a baseball or football field, but that is not the norm.

As for Stafford Woods, no fertilizer whatsoever is used on that property as it is strictly forbidden. As for the mowing and clearing, outside of the grass fairways on maybe 4 holes that are already mowed by the township just in their regular park land maintenance, every bit of mowing and clearing of dead debree is done by volunteers of the local club.

Additionally for the grass, on a golf course the grass must be meticulously maintained, cut daily, different types of grass used and placed, landscaping completely altered to build the greens, bunkers, etc. None of which is required in disc golf. Realistically the average disc golf course gets cut about once a week at the most

As I said before, mountain biking is a closer parallel to environmental impact. Quite honestly a disc golf basket makes about as much environmental impact as a trail sign

 

[batts]

The grass you see is primarily the grass just natural to the terrain. Some active use parks will fertilize grass areas if it’s included in the budget, the same as they do a baseball or football field, but that is not the norm.

As for Stafford Woods, no fertilizer whatsoever is used on that property as it is strictly forbidden. As for the mowing and clearing, outside of the grass fairways on maybe 4 holes that are already mowed by the township just in their regular park land maintenance, every bit of mowing and clearing of dead debree is done by volunteers of the local club.

Additionally for the grass, on a golf course the grass must be meticulously maintained, cut daily, different types of grass used and placed, landscaping completely altered to build the greens, bunkers, etc. None of which is required in disc golf. Realistically the average disc golf course gets cut about once a week at the most

As I said before, mountain biking is a closer parallel to environmental impact. Quite honestly a disc golf basket makes about as much environmental impact as a trail sign

Another big difference between disc golf and traditional golf is the use of motorized golf carts on traditional golf courses, which lends creedence to the argument that it is more of an active use than disc golf.

 

[RU848789]

Is there a fee to play this course? Is there revenue for the park system?

No, although most courses have local clubs that collect maybe $20-$30 per year to join the club, which is really just a donation for upkeep and organizing things like weekly rounds with members. I played there yesterday afternoon and when I was done they were just starting their weekly "tags" round at 5 pm, where everyone does a shotgun start and plays the course and the tags (a physical small tag or fob with a number on it) are collected before the round and given back to the players in their order of finish (best score would get the #1 or lowest numbered tag and 2nd best score gets 2nd lowest tag in play and so on - it's just a way of competing). There's usually an "ace pot" of $1 per player per round and if someone gets an ace half the pot goes to the player and the other half to the club. There are maybe 20-30 courses in the US that charge a fee - if the sport keeps growing, that might change.

 

[kupuna133]

No, although most courses have local clubs that collect maybe $20-$30 per year to join the club, which is really just a donation for upkeep and organizing things like weekly rounds with members. I played there yesterday afternoon and when I was done they were just starting their weekly "tags" round at 5 pm, where everyone does a shotgun start and plays the course and the tags (a physical small tag or fob with a number on it) are collected before the round and given back to the players in their order of finish (best score would get the #1 or lowest numbered tag and 2nd best score gets 2nd lowest tag in play and so on - it's just a way of competing). There's usually an "ace pot" of $1 per player per round and if someone gets an ace half the pot goes to the player and the other half to the club. There are maybe 20-30 courses in the US that charge a fee - if the sport keeps growing, that might change.

Glad to hear there are still recreational opportunities that are free or at minimal cost.

I wonder if we would be having this conversation if the town or state charged a fee?

My cynicism wonders if now that legislators are involved if bureaucrats will want their cut.

 

[RU848789]

Glad to hear there are still recreational opportunities that are free or at minimal cost.

I wonder if we would be having this conversation if the town or state charged a fee?

My cynicism wonders if now that legislators are involved if bureaucrats will want their cut.

At some levels, on occasion, politics kind of works and in this case pissing off tens of thousands of voters and pissing off dozens of businesses by cutting off income streams, is just bad politics, especially when there's a very, very easy solution, i.e., a variance for the course to stay in place, given its small net positive impact on the local environment from the thousands of volunteer hours keeping the park/course/trails clean. That's why I'm pretty sure the variance will be granted. We'll see of course.

 

[tom1944]

At some levels, on occasion, politics kind of works and in this case pissing off tens of thousands of voters and pissing off dozens of businesses by cutting off income streams, is just bad politics, especially when there's a very, very easy solution, i.e., a variance for the course to stay in place, given its small net positive impact on the local environment from the thousands of volunteer hours keeping the park/course/trails clean. That's why I'm pretty sure the variance will be granted. We'll see of course.

I would be surprised if they did not allow disc golf to continue being played

 

[RU848789]

At some levels, on occasion, politics kind of works and in this case pissing off tens of thousands of voters and pissing off dozens of businesses by cutting off income streams, is just bad politics, especially when there's a very, very easy solution, i.e., a variance for the course to stay in place, given its small net positive impact on the local environment from the thousands of volunteer hours keeping the park/course/trails clean. That's why I'm pretty sure the variance will be granted. We'll see of course.

Big step along this path was just taken by Voorhees Twp (see text and link, below), as they (as landowner of the Stafford Woods parcel, including the course), needed to petition the NJDEP for relief to retain the course and they clearly have done so, as per below.

Voorhees Township Committee thanks the hundreds of people and groups who have voiced their concerns regarding Disc Golf at Stafford Woods. We appreciate your interest and willingness to understand the complexities of this entire situation.

Since receiving the notice regarding the mandated restoration of Stafford Woods, Voorhees Township has been working with concerned members of the community, including State and County officials, to seek a solution that will be beneficial to all.

Voorhees Township will work with Disc Golf groups and enthusiasts as well as neighboring property owners to find a long-term solution that will maintain the Disc Golf course while keeping with the spirit of the Deed of Conservation. Furthermore, we have requested that the Department of Environmental Protection please consider a solution that will keep the course open and benefit the township and all interested parties.

In the interim, we will postpone the dismantling of the Disc Golf course and restoration plan until the Department of Environmental Protection states otherwise and/or an agreement has been made.

Thank you again for your attentiveness and understanding.

https://voorheesnj.com/2023/08/31/s...VAzLL8fcfyFbdKvtKKrE8MApMZ52cSVxwJvMg6Fy70vA0

 

[fsg2]

Glad to hear there are still recreational opportunities that are free or at minimal cost.

I wonder if we would be having this conversation if the town or state charged a fee?

My cynicism wonders if now that legislators are involved if bureaucrats will want their cut.

I'd say there are more recreational opportunities than ever that are low cost, especially from a use standpoint.

 

[Bagarocks]

I don't know anyone who plays disc golf at all, Sport. My circle of acquaintances only play traditional golf. I also don't care about the outcome of the closure of the course. The tone of your post makes you sound like a condescending jerk.

I did come up with a major difference between real golf and disc golf that supports your argument, that being the use of golf carts on regular golf courses. You don't have to bother to thank me. That's a freebie.

Ya got the "condescending jerk" part right.

 

[yessir321]

Sorry, yeah that was a bit condenscending...and yes, carts is another difference.

As an aside, I started playing disc golf and ball golf as a teen in the late 70s and became addicted to disc golf in the early 80s, but got tired of playing the same course all the time (RU - there were no other courses within 90 minutes back then), so I switched my addiction to ball golf in the mid-80s and played tons more ball golf until just a couple of years ago, when I got re-addicted to disc golf during COVID. Haven't played much ball golf in 5+ years, but thinking about jumping back in.

All a long way to say, you might want to try DG, as lots of golfers enjoy both. The things I love about DG vs. ball golf are that it usually only takes 1.5-2 hours to play, it's free to play and way less expensive for "equipment," it's a more enjoyable walk in nature and it's more casual with less annoying people.

Did our conversation years ago pre-Covid have anything to do with you jumping back into disc golf?

Just wondering as we first talked about disc golf on this board circa 2019

 

[robcac26]

Disney World has a foot course where you use a soccer ball

Are there course’s around here?

I know there are two footgolf courses in Monmouth--a 9-hole course in Wall and an 18-hole course in Manalapan.

 

[T2Kplus20]

I don't know anyone who plays disc golf at all, Sport. My circle of acquaintances only play traditional golf. I also don't care about the outcome of the closure of the course. The tone of your post makes you sound like a condecending jerk.

I did come up with a major difference between real golf and disc golf that supports your argument, that being the use of golf carts on regular golf courses. You don't have to bother to thank me. That's a freebie.

Yes, Numbers acts like a jerk quite often. This land has a conservation easement, so the illegal activity needs to be shutdown.
:)

 

[yessir321]

Yes, Numbers acts like a jerk quite often. This land has a conservation easement, so the illegal activity needs to be shutdown.
:)

Hahahahaha if that’s not the pot calling the kettle black I don’t know what is!

Wife still not giving you enough attention?

 

[yessir321]

No, although most courses have local clubs that collect maybe $20-$30 per year to join the club, which is really just a donation for upkeep and organizing things like weekly rounds with members. I played there yesterday afternoon and when I was done they were just starting their weekly "tags" round at 5 pm, where everyone does a shotgun start and plays the course and the tags (a physical small tag or fob with a number on it) are collected before the round and given back to the players in their order of finish (best score would get the #1 or lowest numbered tag and 2nd best score gets 2nd lowest tag in play and so on - it's just a way of competing). There's usually an "ace pot" of $1 per player per round and if someone gets an ace half the pot goes to the player and the other half to the club. There are maybe 20-30 courses in the US that charge a fee - if the sport keeps growing, that might change.

Oh there’s a lot more than that that charge a fee they’re just almost exclusively on private land.

Even the ‘Pay the Play’ courses don’t cost a tremendous amount. For example, Lake Marshall in Virginia which is imo the best course on the east coast (for real, make the trip to lake marshall) is $20 for the day, or $30 for the weekends.

The most expensive pay to play course in the entire country is the ‘infamous’ Eagle’s Crossing (the Big money skins match course) which costs $40 to play. So figure the MOST expensive place to play in the entire country, still costs less for a round than the average 18 hole rate at any local municipal ball golf course

 

[T2Kplus20]

Hahahahaha if that’s not the pot calling the kettle black I don’t know what is!

Wife still not giving you enough attention?

It's funny to see adults so upset over "disc golf". Dude, you can throw a frisbee like anywhere. LOL!

 

[yessir321]

It's funny to see adults so upset over "disc golf". Dude, you can throw a frisbee like anywhere. LOL!

No, you really can’t. Tell you what, stand 100 feet in front of me and I’ll throw a disc golf distance driver straight at you….

You will end up in the hospital.

Is it fun going through life as someone completely clueless?

Woman calls for changes to disc golf after coming within a whisker of losing an eye

www.9news.com.au

This is what a lady looked like after being hit with a disc, it’s EXTREMELY necessary for disc golfers to have a defined place to play

 

[T2Kplus20]

No, you really can’t. Tell you what, stand 100 feet in front of me and I’ll throw a disc golf distance driver straight at you….

You will end up in the hospital.

Is it fun going through life as someone completely clueless?

Woman calls for changes to disc golf after coming within a whisker of losing an eye

www.9news.com.au

This is what a lady looked like after being hit with a disc, it’s EXTREMELY necessary for disc golfers to have a defined place to play

The township just released a video of people playing "disk golf" at the park:

 

[tom1944]

I know there are two footgolf courses in Monmouth--a 9-hole course in Wall and an 18-hole course in Manalapan.

Have you ever played?

Is it a game for soccer players looking for something to do or is it fairly easy for most people?

 

[robcac26]

No, you really can’t. Tell you what, stand 100 feet in front of me and I’ll throw a disc golf distance driver straight at you….

You will end up in the hospital.

Is it fun going through life as someone completely clueless?

Woman calls for changes to disc golf after coming within a whisker of losing an eye

www.9news.com.au

This is what a lady looked like after being hit with a disc, it’s EXTREMELY necessary for disc golfers to have a defined place to play

Just ignore him, he thinks he's an expert on everything but never contributes anything of substance to any discussion.

Have you ever played?

Is it a game for soccer players looking for something to do or is it fairly easy for most people?

Sorry, I haven't played or been there. All I know about them is that they exist lol.

 

[RU to the Core]

Also for the misinformed. It’s not a frisbee that is light with fat sides. These are very aerodynamic and hard plastic discs that get some serious velocity and can go hundreds of yards. Just like golf you have a bag of different “tools” depending upon distance and objective. Discs that are drivers, approach, putters etc. you wouldn’t want to try and catch a driver disc being launched at you.

 

[bitnez]

I’m trying to wrap my head around how 90k rounds are played there every year. That’s like 10 rounds per hour for every hour of the year.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Also for the misinformed. It’s not a frisbee that is light with fat sides. These are very aerodynamic and hard plastic discs that get some serious velocity and can go hundreds of yards. Just like golf you have a bag of different “tools” depending upon distance and objective. Discs that are drivers, approach, putters etc. you wouldn’t want to try and catch a driver disc being launched at you.

This just gets more and more hilarious.