In my first post ITT (#8) I wrote that I was glad that I didn’t have to pick a side in the debate. I still don’t have to pick one but the longer this thread has run I now know which side probably makes a more compelling case for its positions.
OT: NJ Gov't to shut down #1 Disc Golf course in NJ
- Thread starter yessir321
- Start date
In my first post ITT (#8) I wrote that I was glad that I didn’t have to pick a side in the debate. I still don’t have to pick one but the longer this thread has run I now know which side probably makes a more compelling case for its positions.
Agreed. Don’t have a horse in the race but can’t see how one side makes their case.
You would be wrong then.
I can’t help it that the usual CE board morons brought up the fact the the owner is republican so now the CE constituents have to come to the rescue.
Carry on. Sad situation all around. Going to be no disc golf and a winery that the town doesn’t accept. And yes that has absolutely happened the last few days.
I am not the one with critical thinking skills issues. I think you should go back and listen to the advise of your third grade teacher.
I’ll ask again do you live in town? From what I have heard from people that actually live there. They are not taking sides.
I brought up that he was a republican and I am not on the C/E board.
I only brought it up because people were saying the issue was political and people were being paid off and he was Murphy's pal etc. I have not seen proof of any of those allegations but none if it is worth discussing because you will never convince anyone that it might just be as simple as DEP was letting something go but when someone made an official request it was something they could no longer ignore.
Nothing to do with politics, bribery or corruption.
Disc Golf and Anne Frank really do not need to have any connection though.
Ohhh.. I'd guess when you get to the heart of things here the bad guys will be some real estate types, developers, lawyers, and politicians in cahoots. (btw.. cahoots is an under-appreciated term, IMHO)
Hmm.. just read a couple posts up that suggests, strongly, otherwise. So I looked at teh area on google maps...
umm.. where do people park on popular Disc golf days?
Is parking the real issue here? I used to live in a neighborhood that got excess cars that were in the neighborhood NOT to visit someone there. It can be a real pain in the bottom... do they park at teh high school and walk? The Shoprite parking lot?
Hmm.. just read a couple posts up that suggests, strongly, otherwise. So I looked at teh area on google maps...
umm.. where do people park on popular Disc golf days?
Is parking the real issue here? I used to live in a neighborhood that got excess cars that were in the neighborhood NOT to visit someone there. It can be a real pain in the bottom... do they park at teh high school and walk? The Shoprite parking lot?
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My immediate take. Thinking there is someone looking to capitalize on this outside of the most obvious person presently being blamed.
But is it true that the town doesn't really care that much?
I have a championship disc golf course in town. I'd prefer a winery.
Oh but you really are. If you can’t see the parallel to ‘just because you can, doesn’t mean you should’ you simply lack critical thinking skills. Kupuna, you chose your side because u saw someone else attack the owner for being republican and got your panties twisted over it. Twist it however you want that’s what’s happening here… go figure the CE board idiots ruined another thread
Not at all. I have never been on the CE board. And am a centrist so don’t get your point. I was actually leaning towards supporting the disc side but you have convinced me to take the other side. Great work.
True, just wondering if the town is actually down on the winery because of this or doesn't really care.
No. Sounds like the njdep looked the other way (logically) for years but then this douche bag lawyered up and found a technicality
He might technically be right (?) but no less a douche bag
Some people can follow the madness, or maybe genius.. who knows
Either way with no dog in this fight this is simply wrong on a human level. Rich investor comes into town to build his fancy new winery, makes the assumption that disc golfers vandalized his property by cutting a hole in the fence which there is absolutely no proof of, next thing you know something incredible that was built and funded exclusively by volunteers and sponsors, that the town was immensely proud of is getting removed. I encourage you to take a look at some of the pictures online of the Stanford woods disc golf course. You will see instantly it is a special place that was built on pure love and passion, something this winery owner will never be able to replicate.
So if you wanna take the side of the winery owner because you think a guy on a Rutgers message board is annoying have at it I suppose. Just understand the side you are taking, and how much it will impact so many people in New Jersey and the surrounding area.
If you have a change of heart and would like to support the disc golfers, please sign the petition
Oh the town is very much in arms over this, my sister lives in Cherry Hill and I have friends in Moorestown (non disc golfers). Both have reached out to me since they know I play saying how the disc golf course is now the talk of the town
That is the conclusion a lot of people jump to (and could certainly be the case)
I work in government and I think there is a 99% chance it happened like this:
Some NJDEP staff realized years ago that, technically, it might not be permitted. But they let it go since: (1) no one was complaining and (2) people were enjoying the ultimate frisbeee (so why rock the boat?)
There is a far greater likelihood that this is closer to the truth
And believe me- this isn’t coming from a perspective of blindly defending bureaucrats- from experience - it’s far more likely that they looked the other (ie were lazy) then took bribes .
After all you’re far more likely to keep you job/ pension if you don’t make waves (look the other way until you’re forced not to) then if you take $
Just sayin’
Again I have no horse in the race. But the fingers should all be pointing on the incompetency of the town administration who did not document the agreement and the DEP who allowed usage without proper documentation.
The people that are not as guilty are the people that cleaned up a derelict site. Considering both the disc golfers and the owner of the winery both did so.
There is the possibility of an exception being made from state representatives who had been emailed hundreds if not thousands of times at this point. There may still be hope to save the course with enough public pressure and perhaps then it can be written into law if you will.
The DG club lawyered up as well and apparently this is the way through. A huge online petition can certainly help the cause.
If you wouldn’t mind, please take 10 seconds to sign the petition. It really might help!
You've said you have no horse in this race more than once. This sets off my "Thou doth protest too much" detector.
Just my observation. No insider info here at all.
The story as read so far points to winery owner pushing buttons and now whining about the blowback.
I think you are right. The winery owner admits to contacting the police. I don’t think his intention was to get them kicked out. As someone said above. The disc golf had a handshake agreement but once there was a complaint the DEP had no choice but to rescind the practice.
A petition will help. But that legislative district reps will have their hands out. This will not come cheap.
Kind've funny, I've been thinking about building a disc golf course on my winery's property, before all this...
He’s got a nice house in Longport, worth at least 6 million. His property tax alone is $66K per year
Yep The guy was born and raised in Marlton. The same town where he now owns the winery.
Directed at whom? Disc golfers?
Gonna be pretty disappointed how quickly they scrape the bottom of those cargo shorts.
Signed
Really sad situation. Local disc golfers took an abandoned piece of land, made it into something spectacular. The disc golf pro tour made a stop here last year, the first major tournament in NJ since the 1979 Frisbee world championships at Rutgers. Now a local winery is opening next door and the owner wants to shut down quite literally the most popular course in the state. 30,000+ annual players.
If you don't mind taking 2 seconds to sign this that's be great but more importantly, please do not support "Saddlehill Winery" or Bill Green in any way. This would genuinely be devastating for the local community
Did you read my post earlier? In addition to feedback from friends in the area, if you go to the "What's Up in Voorhees" FB page (private but easy to join, so I did), I'd guess it's 5:1 in favor of people who want to keep the course vs. people who either don't like the course or a few who don't like the winery owner being painted as the bad guy - which I think he was, as he could've very easily gone to the DG course leaders and tried to resolve the issue locally, but didn't.
The crux of this, to me, is that the NJDEP and Voorhees reps were derelict in not codifying their opinion, at the time of course installation in 2012, that DG was a passive use (as it is in many states) and the DG leadership assumed their handshake agreement with the town was all they needed (a fair assumption), which was confirmed in three separate DEP inspections of the site, none of which noted any violations to land use associated with the DG course. And while the DEP is clearly the arbiter here and has the power to shut down the course, the question should be whether that's truly the best decision with regard to either the environment at the site or the greater public good, especially when it's obvious they saw no issue with the course for over 10 years prior to one complaint being filed with zero proof that disc golfers caused the issue the neighbor complained about.
As I said in my letters to politicians and NJDEP leadership, "Perhaps a variance can be granted on the issue of passive usage (if disc golf is truly considered an active use by the NJDEP – it’s considered a passive use in many other states), which is allowed under the NJDEP regulations in cases of “the greater public good.” If there were ever a case where it seems like there is an enormous public good being weighed against an extremely minor environmental impact from an activity perspective, this is it, in my humble opinion."
And with regard to defining that "enormous public good" I wrote the following, which I think captures it pretty well. Comments welcome.
As I’m sure you’re aware, the NJDEP decision to close the Stafford Woods disc golf course in Voorhees, NJ has touched a nerve throughout the disc golf community, as there are thousands of us who treasure this gem of a disc golf course, as borne out by the fact that the course now gets about 100,000 rounds per year and we’ve already had nearly 20,000 people signing the petition to save the course in just a few days. Many of us travel from far away (it’s an hour for me, from Metuchen) just to play Stafford and while I can’t speak for everyone, I can tell you that every time I visit the course (every month or two), I always patronize the businesses in the area, whether it be Panera, Chick Fil A, Primo’s or, if I have a bit more time, Ott’s or the Chop House – and on occasion I’ll get gas and sundries at one of the local gas stations – and, having grown up nearby, last year I even did some holiday shopping at the Voorhees Town Center (which will always be the Echelon Mall to me – born in 1962). Multiply that by hundreds of other players spending money in the local area every week and imagine the economic impact to the area if the course is closed.
But that’s just the economic impact. The impact on the players who use the course will be much greater, as Stafford is one of the top 50 courses in the US for one of the fastest growing sports in the country. In addition to the fun we all have playing the course, all of us players get to enjoy a beautiful walk in the park every time we play, which is the epitome of passive park use. I know passive vs. active use is at the crux of the DEP’s concern here, but while typical “active” uses, like football, soccer, baseball, concerts, etc., require clearing all flora and fauna from an area to level it and construct a field or facility, disc golf requires none of that – the only “impact” of installing a course is the 18 tiny tee pads and baskets, which take up far less than 0.01% of the park’s area – and not only are the trees and trails left in place, but the dozens of course volunteers have made major improvements over the last decade in cleaning up the course, as the area was an absolute mess when course installation began, including the trails which had become badly overgrown. And the impact of playing on the course is no more than the impact of walkers and hikers.
