OT - Not looking good for the Gateway Tunnel project

[T2Kplus10]

Two important articles. First, Trump's DOT is not recognizing the old handshake agreement on matching state money. Probably not a big deal, but the project is essentially starting from scratch:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/20...ject_no.html#incart_2box_nj-homepage-featured

But more damaging is the recent and ongoing massive corruption of similar projects. Breathtaking crooked stuff going on:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/...region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0&referer=

Good luck to all train commuters!

 

[RU4Real]

Should be on the CE board.

 

[LevaosLectures]

Two important articles. First, Trump's DOT is not recognizing the old handshake agreement on matching state money. Probably not a big deal, but the project is essentially starting from scratch:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/20...ject_no.html#incart_2box_nj-homepage-featured

But more damaging is the recent and ongoing massive corruption of similar projects. Breathtaking crooked stuff going on:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/...region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0&referer=

Good luck to all train commuters!

ARC would be opening this coming year.

 

[Tango Two]

Two important articles. First, Trump's DOT is not recognizing the old handshake agreement on matching state money. Probably not a big deal, but the project is essentially starting from scratch:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/20...ject_no.html#incart_2box_nj-homepage-featured

But more damaging is the recent and ongoing massive corruption of similar projects. Breathtaking crooked stuff going on:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/...region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0&referer=

Good luck to all train commuters!

Oooooooooooooooooooooooook

 

[T2Kplus10]

ARC would be opening this coming year.

ARC would have ran out of money and been stalled for the past 5 years as the two states and feds pointed fingers at each other.

 

[jtung230]

The revenue from Xanadu should offset it.

 

[T2Kplus10]

The revenue from Xanadu should offset it.

That project is a testament of what NJ politics truly is!

 

[Section124]

Anything other than brining the 7 train to Secaucus is waste. Need to connect the regional train systems.

 

[FastMJ]

Anything other than brining the 7 train to Secaucus is waste. Need to connect the regional train systems.

Extending the 7 train is the best option

 

[T2Kplus10]

Extending the 7 train is the best option

Probably the least expensive option as well.

 

[MadRU]

Except if the existing tunnel which received damage during Sandy has more issues. Amtrak has to run constant inspections and ice removal in the tunnel.

 

[ScarletKid2008]

But they want to extend the PATH to the Newark airport guys. The billions are better spent there , duplicating access that already exists and is not regularly used. (Sarcasm)

 

[mdk01]

ARC would be opening this coming year.

You forgot to tell us how many BILLION dollars of cost overruns the taxpayers of New Jersey, and ONLY the taxpayers of New Jersey would be on the hook for. I can tell you the number for the federal government and New York: ZERO!!!!!

 

[Doctor Worm]

ARC would be opening this coming year.

I believe that Christie's decision to kill ARC will be his primary legacy.

 

[mdk01]

I believe that Christie's decision to kill ARC will be his primary legacy.

And if the whole story is told he will be vindicated. I wonder what impact it will have on the legacies of Lautenberg and Menendez, who didn't do squat to get their constituents a fair deal.

 

[rutgersal]

ARC would have ran out of money and been stalled for the past 5 years as the two states and feds pointed fingers at each other.

That's baloney. They would have found the money and the project would have been almost done. The federal government would have stepped in and curtailed some of New Jersey's Risk. But Christie did not want to negotiate in good faith because stopping ARC had been the cornerstone of his campaign. During his term Chris Christie singlehandedly transformed NJ Transit into Bombay Rail. Conditions on the northeast corridor are simply deplorable, as is commutting to NYC. Which is why I'm considering moving to NYC because I dont want to deal with the NJ Transit BS. Christie set back public transit in NJ by at least one decade, perhaps more.

 

[ScarletKid2008]

The commute into NYC is a disaster.

Significant delay train delays, disgusting , over crowded and inadequate hubs (Port Authority, Penn Station) , the commuting times are nowhere near efficient, old technology (if any)... and every year we keep paying more and getting worse service .

Train or bus both answers = misery for NJ residents and their quality of life and embarrassing mis-managent of the massive revenue they took from us in both in tax dollars and monthly fees to ride

The PATH and ferries are the only human like experiences that have remained reliable

 

[Ridge 22]

And if the whole story is told he will be vindicated. I wonder what impact it will have on the legacies of Lautenberg and Menendez, who didn't do squat to get their constituents a fair deal.

If ARC was a bad deal for NJ, then Christie was right to cancel it. My problem is that he failed to replace it with a reasonable alternative. Here we are all these years later and we still don't have a viable project anywhere even close to being underway. I feel for those commuters from NJ who have suffered in hell on a daily basis as time continues to march on with no end in sight.

 

[T2Kplus10]

That's baloney. They would have found the money and the project would have been almost done. The federal government would have stepped in and curtailed some of New Jersey's Risk. But Christie did not want to negotiate in good faith because stopping ARC had been the cornerstone of his campaign. During his term Chris Christie singlehandedly transformed NJ Transit into Bombay Rail. Conditions on the northeast corridor are simply deplorable, as is commutting to NYC. Which is why I'm considering moving to NYC because I dont want to deal with the NJ Transit BS. Christie set back public transit in NJ by at least one decade, perhaps more.

"Found" the money? Where exactly would the $10b+ in cost overruns be found by NJ? And based on the second article I posted, $10b in overruns is likely way too low of an estimate.

 

[kcg88]

Even if the project was delayed, opening in 2019 is a hell of a better than letting the tunnels rot indefinitely and MAYBE there being a plan for sometime in the 2020s, which is the situation right now.

 

[T2Kplus10]

If ARC was a bad deal for NJ, then Christie was right to cancel it. My problem is that he failed to replace it with a reasonable alternative. Here we are all these years later and we still don't have a viable project anywhere even close to being underway. Those commuters from NJ who have suffered in hell on a daily basis as time continues to march on with no end in sight.

Agreed on both points.

 

[kcg88]

"Found" the money? Where exactly would the $10b+ in cost overruns be found by NJ? And based on the second article I posted, $10b in overruns is likely way too low of an estimate.

So now instead of being responsible for cost overruns (which could have been negotiated with the feds) we're responsible for the entire project. Brilliant.

 

[Plum Street]

But they want to extend the PATH to the Newark airport guys. The billions are better spent there , duplicating access that already exists and is not regularly used. (Sarcasm)

Is this true ? I thought the point of that extension was to put another path station in Newark - in between penn station and airport. I believe they would be getting some fed money because it serves a low income area of Newark that is mostly shut off from the rails.

 

[DJ Spanky]

If you didn't read that NY Times article, you need to. Dear lord, a mile of tunnel in NYC costs at least 5 times the amount it does everywhere else around the world.

You forgot to tell us how many BILLION dollars of cost overruns the taxpayers of New Jersey, and ONLY the taxpayers of New Jersey would be on the hook for. I can tell you the number for the federal government and New York: ZERO!!!!!

Yep, that was a disaster just waiting to happen. For us. The taxpayers of NJ. And anyone who thinks there wouldn't be cost overruns lives in fantasy world. Just look at the Big Dig.

 

[RUsSKii]

Is this true ? I thought the point of that extension was to put another path station in Newark - in between penn station and airport. I believe they would be getting some fed money because it serves a low income area of Newark that is mostly shut off from the rails.

Not only that, but the PATH extension to Newark Airport would also offer the following benefits:

-under a public/private partnership funding, a commuter parking garage would be added to the new station, making the PATH train an even more viable park/ride alternative for NYC/Jersey City commuters from central/south jersey
-once the path extension to Newark airport, as well as ATC signaling to allow a higher frequency of trains, are completed, then Path becomes a more realistic backup to NJTransit/Amtrak for both commuters and airport travelers in the event of a catastrophic failure to the Hudson north train tunnels. Path's handling of additional ridership from Hoboken during the "summer of hell" at NyPenn station this year bears that out.

 

[ScarletKid2008]

Is this true ? I thought the point of that extension was to put another path station in Newark - in between penn station and airport. I believe they would be getting some fed money because it serves a low income area of Newark that is mostly shut off from the rails.

The extra Newark station is a “bonus” or being pitched as a collateral benefit. It’s being sold as a “one-seat” train from World Trade Center to NWK airport. But anyone who looks at this and knows politics in NJ can make a reasonable guess that the station in Newark is probably the real driver in hopes it creates a redevelopment of a section of Newark. Which I’m okay with but they’re not selling it to the public as that (and it’s undetermined if that would even be part of the PATH extension plans)

 

[T2Kplus10]

So now instead of being responsible for cost overruns (which could have been negotiated with the feds) we're responsible for the entire project. Brilliant.

Um, no. The Gateway project nor whatever it becomes will definitely not be 100% funded by NJ. Silly post.

 

[T2Kplus10]

If you didn't read that NY Times article, you need to. Dear lord, a mile of tunnel in NYC costs at least 5 times the amount it does everywhere else around the world.

Yep, that was a disaster just waiting to happen. For us. The taxpayers of NJ. And anyone who thinks there wouldn't be cost overruns lives in fantasy world. Just look at the Big Dig.

The ARC or Gateway will make the Big Dig costs look like a rounding error. The waste, fraud, and cost overruns could be biblical in scope!

 

[RUJMM78]

Politics and delivery of service usually lead into cost over runs and endless delays in project completion.In the meantime passengers will face delays , crowded trains and probably increased fares.

 

[irishflu92]

Is this true ? I thought the point of that extension was to put another path station in Newark - in between penn station and airport. I believe they would be getting some fed money because it serves a low income area of Newark that is mostly shut off from the rails.

This is correct. The new PATH line will extend from Penn Station along McCarter Highway (elevated for much of the distance) with a new terminal at the airport alongside the existing monorail/Amtrak stop. It will be funded by Port Authority and the Feds. It’s already built into the PA capital budget. The Feds are presently going through a review process but will ultimately fund it. Construction to begin in 12-18 months.

 

[T2Kplus10]

This is correct. The new PATH line will extend from Penn Station along McCarter Highway (elevated for much of the distance) with a new terminal at the airport alongside the existing monorail/Amtrak stop. It will be funded by Port Authority and the Feds. It’s already built into the PA capital budget. The Feds are presently going through a review process but will ultimately fund it. Construction to begin in 12-18 months.

So all this money would only do is eliminate the transfer of PATH riders to an NJT train? Seems like many other priorities than this.

 

[Plum Street]

So all this money would only do is eliminate the transfer of PATH riders to an NJT train? Seems like many other priorities than this.

Yeah. But the new station in Newark neighborhood is probably the driving force behind it. It does seem like a big waste of a project otherwise.

 

[RUsSKii]

So all this money would only do is eliminate the transfer of PATH riders to an NJT train? Seems like many other priorities than this.

That's not the only benefit, as much as I would personally prefer to take PATH to Newark airport and avoid NJTransit/NYPenn station at all costs. Refer to my post above.

 

[DJ Spanky]

I just finished reading that NYT article - took 2 cups of coffee to chew through it. I HIGHLY recommend everyone read that, it's sickening. Here in NYC it costs $2.5 billion to build a mile of track: on an extremely similar project in Paris, which has very powerful unions itself, it costs $450 million per mile of track. Unreal.

 

[rutgersdave]

Maybe we need to have “commuter license fees” similar to stadium fees to generate capital funds and might have to wait for Elan Musk boring company to reduce the cost for tunnels, current train seem to be bulky and requires manpower to operate. We should be able to develop a system that totally automated reducing operation cost.

https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/

We seem to be using 1920-1940 techniques for building tunnels and for trains from the 1910’s while other countries are moving to the 2030’s.

 

[NotInRHouse]

You forgot to tell us how many BILLION dollars of cost overruns the taxpayers of New Jersey, and ONLY the taxpayers of New Jersey would be on the hook for. I can tell you the number for the federal government and New York: ZERO!!!!!

Can you tell us about all the employees that can't get to work and all the revenue lost there?

Why didn't Christie negotiate a better deal? I mean I know he did have to spend a lot of time raising tolls, PATH fare, NJT fare, the gas tax, and millions in legal fees after his appointees costs the state millions in shutting down bridge lanes, but you think he could have at least done it while he sat on a closed beach to the taxpayers while the gov shutdown?

 

[rutgersdave]

Maybe it’s insane to continue to have more commuters commuting to NYC from NJ. Companies executives might have to make decisions that’s best for their employees and provide more satellite locations in NJ to work simultaneously with their NYC location or allow more people to work from home.

 

[NotInRHouse]

The bottom line is the PATH extension, 7 extension, and new tunnel would would all be funded if we had a gov committed to infrastructure.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Should be on the CE board.

It is a sad commentary in a state whose economic wellbeing relies on mass transit to neighboring states and its major cities that some celebrate mass transit being inadequate, making your point correct.

 

[T2Kplus10]

I just finished reading that NYT article - took 2 cups of coffee to chew through it. I HIGHLY recommend everyone read that, it's sickening. Here in NYC it costs $2.5 billion to build a mile of track: on an extremely similar project in Paris, which has very powerful unions itself, it costs $450 million per mile of track. Unreal.

It's a breathtaking read, even for those very cynical about government projects. The biggest thing preventing the improvement of our infrastructure is government/union corruption, incompetence, and waste. If the Gateway is billed as $25B, it will likely cost $50-60B!