OT - Not looking good for the Gateway Tunnel project

[RU4Real]

As someone who lives on the Raritan Valley Line, whose riders have been told the only way we are getting direct one seat rides into NYC is if the Gateway/ARC Tunnel is completed, I have a vested in interest in seeing that project get done. It would benefit everyone's property values not just those who actually rely on NJ Transit to get to work like myself. Having said all that, I did not think what Christie was asking for was unreasonable. The history of delivering such massive public infrastructure projects on time and on budget is poor and it getting it straight upfront as to who would be paying (shouldn't it be the winning bidders?) those overages struck me as exercising the proper due diligence.

The Raritan Valley Line will never have a one seat ride into NYC.

Remember, first and foremost, that whatever project comes to fruition in the form of a new rail tunnel, the very first thing that happens when it opens is that the old one gets closed for about 10 years worth of repairs.

After that, even with four tubes open, there are no plans to have terminal infrastructure in place to allow every train from every NJT line terminate in Manhattan.

 

[RU_Planning]

I'm not sure you'd get many impartial, reasoned perspectives with regard to the notion of NYC withering on the vine.

Personally - and this is just my opinion - I think that massive investment in commuter rail between NJ and NYC is a bad idea. I don't think that encouraging the upward growth of Manhattan benefits anyone other than the City and State of New York. Even putting aside my Jersey bias, I believe that the greater benefit is found in spending money to bring more of the global business community to places like Jersey City and Newark and I'd rather see our billions invested in that.

Newark and JC will get some overflow regardless, but clustering is still very important and companies can't do that in the same way as they can in Manhattan.

Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau, Westchester and even the Bronx will benefit from the inadequate access to Manhattan from New Jersey.

 

[RU4Real]

Newark and JC will get some overflow regardless, but clustering is still very important and companies can't do that in the same way as they can in Manhattan.

Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau, Westchester and even the Bronx will benefit from the inadequate access to Manhattan from New Jersey.

I think Goldman Sachs would disagree. Clustering isn't as important today as it was even 10 years ago.

 

[T2Kplus10]

I think Goldman Sachs would disagree. Clustering isn't as important today as it was even 10 years ago.

This is very, very true. Physical footprints of companies are shrinking and employers are less tied to home offices. I am shocked to see this happen at a rapid pace even in the pharma industry, which is normally traditional and slow to change.

There use to be 7-8 large pharma's in NYC and it's now down to 1. Also, the clustering in NJ medicine chest is long gone, companies are scattered throughout the country.

 

[RU_Planning]

I think Goldman Sachs would disagree. Clustering isn't as important today as it was even 10 years ago.

It's still important and GS's JC experiment didn't go very well.

Financial companies might be okay with back office not being in Manhattan, but why Jersey? They'd just send them to Charlotte, Atlanta or Dallas.

Tech companies clustering is still significant especially for start ups and small companies. The internet allows for more freedomofnplace, but people predicted in the 90s that it would decimate cities (like NYC) yet the exact opposite happened.

 

[RU4Real]

Tech companies clustering is significant.

Why?

 

[DJ Spanky]

Why?

I'd like to know that too.

 

[rutgersal]

Unknown unknowns?

Nonsense.

This is also nonsense: "This is a project that is going to get done eventually and the cost overruns will be even more expensive thx to inflation."

Inflation is a rising tide. If the costs are inflated, so are the dollars that pay for them.

Come on man! Of course there are going to be unknown unknowns. This is why arc grew from 7.4 billion to 10 billion+ before it was cancelled. The big dig and 2nd avenue subway had substancial unknown unknowns which is why they blew their budget and had substantial cost overruns. When's the last time NJ Transit/ Federal Government dug a tunnel under the Hudson River? The latest plan I've read about has the tunnels ending at a penn station South annex, which will increase the risk of cost overruns.

It's not true that revenue that pays for big projects are similarly inflated because these projects are financed by Bonds, and the true costs won't be known till well after the project is over, as the scope of projects of this magnitude always increases. Furthermore labor cost inflation is greater than the growth of revenue sources. This is the chief reason why it will be more expensive to build the project in 2030, then it would have been to complete it this year. ARC was Chris Christies biggest failure, and most who travel to NYC agree.

 

[rutgersdave]

Newark and JC will get some overflow regardless, but clustering is still very important and companies can't do that in the same way as they can in Manhattan.

Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau, Westchester and even the Bronx will benefit from the inadequate access to Manhattan from New Jersey.

You can see the new construction going up in Newark already. Commuting into NYC is only going to get worse the next ten to twenty years.

 

[RU4Real]

Come on man! Of course there are going to be unknown unknowns. This is why arc grew from 7.4 billion to 10 billion+ before it was cancelled. The big dig and 2nd avenue subway had substancial unknown unknowns which is why they blew their budget and had substantial cost overruns. When's the last time NJ Transit/ Federal Government dug a tunnel under the Hudson River? The latest plan I've read about has the tunnels ending at a penn station South annex, which will increase the risk of cost overruns.

Name 3.

I don't think you clearly understand the concept.

 

[T2Kplus10]

You can see the new construction going up in Newark already. Commuting into NYC is only going to get worse the next ten to twenty years.

Residential or office construction?

 

[letterhead6]

Many, if not most New Jerseyan's are just cheap and selfish with regards to doing anything that may improve the lives of us poor slobs that have to commute into NY and make the money that keeps this state afloat. They have some fantasy vision that Google or Amazon or any other hot company should re-settle in Newark (of all places). New Jersey is adjacent to NEW YORK, one of the great global cities. If NJ were not, the it would, essentially, be Ohio (but without a great football team). For 15 years politicians on both of the aisles in NY and NJ worked to get ARC approved and shovels in the ground. It was a GREAT achievement. With no public discussion Fatso cancelled it all by himself. He claimed great cost overruns...but what he really wanted was to shift monies to not raise the gas tax, and thereby improve his political future. When he cancelled, there was outrage and shock for many reasons...but the Federal Dept of Transportation said Christie flat out lied about the overruns. Furthermore, if Christie were an expert politician, he would have tried to get assurances with regards to the imagined overruns...but he didn't at all. This was a "once in a lifetime" opportunity to improve the lives of New Jerseyan's. Anyone with half a brain knows that Gateway will never happen. Why? Politics, economics, costs....these stars align once in 100 years, and that was ARC. If you live in NJ, as I do, we live in a cheap ass state. During the time that ARC should have been built, NY has embarked on or finished major transportation projects that improve the lives of their citizens and set the city and state up for future generations. 2nd avenue subway, new tappanzee bridge, extension of #7 train to westside, tunneling LIRR into grand central, rebuilding of LaGaurdia airport, the amazingly beautiful transportation hub at WTC. So, you cheapskates keep believing that Christie did something special here. You probably don't have to go into NY every day...but you'll pay anyway when you housing prices decline, because the word is out that it sucks to live in NJ and commute to NY.

 

[RU_Planning]

Why?

I'd like to know that too.

Access to various types of capital (financial, social, intellectual, etc.), not much different than why any other types of industries cluster. I'd argue that the fast pace of tech innovation makes clustering more important than it may be for other industries.

There is a lot of interdependency not only between tech companies, but tech companies with other industries in the creative fields such as design (architectural to fashion) and sciences.

Talent pool is very important. Companies hire away from other companies all the time and it is much easier to do so within a cluster. This is also a benefit to workers as they look to advance their careers.

Personal relationships matter, being able to easily get lunch with a prospective partner or employee is still very important and that isn't going to change. As the Internet has expended our ability to interact digitally it has increased the desire for more in-person interactions. You even see this at the office-location level and the embracement for co-working like WeWork and the environment that is created to foster synergy and social relationships.

 

[letterhead6]

With regards to Raritan Valley Line, it is this simple. We were here first...before midtown direct, before secaucus...but we find ourselves at the back of the line for a direct ride in. Why? Lack of political will and skill. Could we fill two trains an hour that go direct into midtown...no stop at Newark, no stop at Secaucus? Of course, but Summit and other towns are getting that privilege.

 

[rutgersdave]

Residential or office construction?

Both been telling you this the last 2 years.

http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2016/12/a_building_boom_in_newark_heres_a_dozen_big_projec.html


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2017/09/newarks_building_boom_an_echo_of_its_history_di_io.html

I was also very surprised to see at least 3 huge new apartment complex build recently in Bloomfield, right next to Newark.

 

[RU4Real]

Access to various types of capital (financial, social, intellectual, etc.), not much different than why any other types of industries cluster. I'd argue that the fast pace of tech innovation makes clustering more important than it may be for other industries.

There is a lot of interdependency not only between tech companies, but tech companies with other industries in the creative fields such as design (architectural to fashion) and sciences.

Talent pool is very important. Companies hire away from other companies all the time and it is much easier to do so within a cluster. This is also a benefit to workers as they look to advance their careers.

Personal relationships matter, being able to easily get lunch with a prospective partner or employee is still very important and that isn't going to change. As the Internet has expended our ability to interact digitally it has increased the desire for more in-person interactions. You even see this at the office-location level and the embracement for co-working like WeWork and the environment that is created to foster synergy and social relationships.

So you're saying that tech companies have a large physical presence in NYC?

 

[RUfinal4]

Trump claims he can get Bipartisanship on infrastructure but that may just be talk.
GOP - wants to turn back the clock and privatize infrastructure with mostly corporate money.
Example: sell the rights to Gateway project for a company to build the tunnels where
Amtrak and NJ Transit will pay that company lease fees. Same with bridges and highways
where private companies can charge tolls as long as they build and upkeep the roads.
Dems - want public money to pay as it is for the public good.

2 different approaches. Most of the NY subways started as private 100 years ago. NY waterway and Seastreak are examples of a private company today providing commuting services.

 

[rutgersdave]

With the train delays and cancellation only getting worse, might have to declare a state of emergency and increase number of buses and double the bus lane to two. Private cars and truck can be prohibited during commuting hours or increase their fees to $25-30 during commuter hours which can, fund to be use for construction. Way to many Uber’s drivers traveling into NYC.

 

[RU_Planning]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...enter-in-america-could-get-unimaginably-worse

 

[T2Kplus10]

With the train delays and cancellation only getting worse, might have to declare a state of emergency and increase number of buses and double the bus lane to two. Private cars and truck can be prohibited during commuting hours or increase their fees to $25-30 during commuter hours which can, fund to be use for construction. Way to many Uber’s drivers traveling into NYC.

Instead of spending money on the Gateway project, why not an expansion of the Lincoln tunnel for bus-only lanes? Bus service is much more scalable than train service.....all you need is a bus and a parking lot.

 

[RU4Real]

Instead of spending money on the Gateway project, why not an expansion of the Lincoln tunnel for bus-only lanes? Bus service is much more scalable than train service.....all you need is a bus and a parking lot.

Define "expansion of the Lincoln Tunnel"

 

[RUBand]

The revenue from Xanadu should offset it.

Why shop online when you can go to Xanadu?

 

[DJ Spanky]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...enter-in-america-could-get-unimaginably-worse

I absolutely hate articles like this when they print straight out lies.

Vision 3: In 2009, New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine put together a fully funded $8.7 billion project for new tunnels—Access to the Region’s Core, or the biblical-sounding ARC. But in a case of extreme political myopia, Corzine’s successor, the White House-eyeing Chris Christie, canceled the plan to keep gasoline taxes low.

NO! The plan was cancelled because NJ would have had to handle any cost overruns on its own.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Both been telling you this the last 2 years.

http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2016/12/a_building_boom_in_newark_heres_a_dozen_big_projec.html


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2017/09/newarks_building_boom_an_echo_of_its_history_di_io.html

I was also very surprised to see at least 3 huge new apartment complex build recently in Bloomfield, right next to Newark.

Lots of small projects on this list, nothing seems like a game changer.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Define "expansion of the Lincoln Tunnel"

Too bad this thread got f'ed up, it was a good one. Expansion of the Lincoln Tunnel would be another tube or widening existing ones (if possible). Goal would be to help bus traffic get to a brand new Port Authority bus terminal. I mentioned this before in the thread, bus operations since more flexible and scalable than trains.

 

[RU_Planning]

So you're saying that tech companies have a large physical presence in NYC?

As a percentage of overall employment it isn't large (which is expected of any large city with a diversified economy), but is growing rapidly.

The proximity to NYC's more established employment sectors is key to why the industry's physical presence has increased substantially over the past decade.

Google spent $2 billion on their NYC headquarters in Chelsea that is an entire block, IBM has an entire building for Watson in the East Village and Facebook is a block and a half away. Cornell Tech just opened on Roosevelt Island, NYU recently fully merged with the Polytech Institute in Downtown Brooklyn.

NYC is likely never going to be Silicon Valley, however tech will continue to cluster there because all of the other industries that cluster there. The fiber accessible in NYC doesn't hurt either.

 

[RU4Real]

Too bad this thread got f'ed up, it was a good one. Expansion of the Lincoln Tunnel would be another tube or widening existing ones (if possible). Goal would be to help bus traffic get to a brand new Port Authority bus terminal. I mentioned this before in the thread, bus operations since more flexible and scalable than trains.

This thread is totally broken.

You'd never be able to expand an existing tube without taking it completely out of service for the duration. I don't know what kind of RoW space is available on either side of the existing tubes but, again, if you wanted to run a TBM alongside one of the existing tubes you'd probably have to take it out of service.

 

[RU_Planning]

Lots of small projects on this list, nothing seems like a game changer.

What type of development do you think is a game changer?

 

[Tango Two]

Murphy will fix it lol

 

[rutgersdave]

What type of development do you think is a game changer?

Amazon

 

[DJ Spanky]

Murphy will fix it lol

We can use all of the illegal immigrants in our sanctuary state as labor!

 

[T2Kplus10]

What type of development do you think is a game changer?

Honestly, 75% of Newark needs to be plowed under and rebuilt, so I doubt my expectations will ever be met! But the first project on the list is a nice one.

 

[mdk01]

There's simply no reason to maintain a physical presence in NYC because A) the real estate is expensive and B) nobody works in offices anymore.

C. New York City Income Tax on top of the state income tax

D. When rent exceeds $250k per year a 3.6% Commercial Rent Tax on locations in Manhattan below 96th St. That won't affect small start-ups (which my guess would be the creators of new tech hiring) or large companies having a small presence (i.e. 3500 sq. ft.) but it makes the thought of an Amazon HQ in Manhattan absurd.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Amazon

[thumb2]
Bingo. And folks won't have to commute to NYC. I bet for Amazon, a ton of folks in NYC would do the reverse commute!

 

[RU848789]

I just finished reading that NYT article - took 2 cups of coffee to chew through it. I HIGHLY recommend everyone read that, it's sickening. Here in NYC it costs $2.5 billion to build a mile of track: on an extremely similar project in Paris, which has very powerful unions itself, it costs $450 million per mile of track. Unreal.

It's a breathtaking read, even for those very cynical about government projects. The biggest thing preventing the improvement of our infrastructure is government/union corruption, incompetence, and waste. If the Gateway is billed as $25B, it will likely cost $50-60B!

Completely agree this is a travesty, but I will tweak both of you a bit for so highly complimenting that "liberal purveyor of fake news."

Anyway, it is a great article and the MTA and everyone involved in construction projects should simply be ashamed for being so greedy and incompetent. That's not what unions, contractors, and management/gov't working on public projects are supposed to be about. The summary from the article in italics below is damning.

The fact that a similar project in an even older city (Paris), with its famously strong unions, came in at 1/6th the cost of the 2nd Ave extension in NYC is borderline criminal: "while the Second Avenue Subway cost $2.5 billion a mile, the Line 14 extension is on track to cost $450 million a mile." Somehow our politicians, unions, contractors and others need to be held accountable for this. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to build this tunnel for a far more reasonable price - our region needs it.

The Times found that a host of factors have contributed to the transit authority’s exorbitant capital costs.

For years, The Times found, public officials have stood by as a small group of politically connected labor unions, construction companies and consulting firms have amassed large profits.

Trade unions, which have closely aligned themselves with Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo and other politicians, have secured deals requiring underground construction work to be staffed by as many as four times more laborers than elsewhere in the world, documents show.

Construction companies, which have given millions of dollars in campaign donations in recent years, have increased their projected costs by up to 50 percent when bidding for work from the M.T.A., contractors say.

Consulting firms, which have hired away scores of M.T.A. employees, have persuaded the authority to spend an unusual amount on design and management, statistics indicate.

Public officials, mired in bureaucracy, have not acted to curb the costs. The M.T.A. has not adopted best practices nor worked to increase competition in contracting, and it almost never punishes vendors for spending too much or taking too long, according to inspector general reports.

 

[RU4Real]

As a percentage of overall employment it isn't large (which is expected of any large city with a diversified economy), but is growing rapidly.

The proximity to NYC's more established employment sectors is key to why the industry's physical presence has increased substantially over the past decade.

Google spent $2 billion on their NYC headquarters in Chelsea that is an entire block, IBM has an entire building for Watson in the East Village and Facebook is a block and a half away. Cornell Tech just opened on Roosevelt Island, NYU recently fully merged with the Polytech Institute in Downtown Brooklyn.

NYC is likely never going to be Silicon Valley, however tech will continue to cluster there because all of the other industries that cluster there. The fiber accessible in NYC doesn't hurt either.

But the number of people actually employed AT those facilities is relatively small. Meanwhile, tech companies that compete with the likes of IBM and are actually larger than IBM have basically zero presence in NYC.

 

[mdk01]

I previously mentioned the NYC Income Tax and Commercial Rent Tax for much of Manhattan.

And just so pass through entities don't feel left out NYC doesn't recognize an "S" election and has a NYC Unincorporated Business Tax for partnerships, sole proprietors and LLCs

 

[RU_Planning]

But the number of people actually employed AT those facilities is relatively small. Meanwhile, tech companies that compete with the likes of IBM and are actually larger than IBM have basically zero presence in NYC.

I know Oracle has a presence, although I don't know how large.

The tech companies that have a presence in NYC have it for a reason (mainly clustering with other clusters, but also access to the types of capital described above).

The industries that make up NYCs economy aren't relocating to Newark to access NJ's talent at the expense of the 13 or so million folks that have access to Manhattan on the east side of the Hudson River.

As long as those industries are clustering in NYC, the tech companies are going to continue to increase their presence in those clusters. If you know or believe otherwise it would be interesting to read your take.

 

[Wolv RU]

The thing is though, NJ is benefiting from its citizens earning those higher wages in NYC through taxation. NJ benefits when high wage earners choose to live in Montclair or Princeton or Maplewood or wherever versus LI or CT or the city itself.

The sole reason for growth in Jersey City has been the the quick access to NYC. Goldman was never coming here without it, nor the companies that followed. Yes we have walkability and yes we have sick views but so do many cities in NJ that are still way behind in the game.

Not to mention, NJ has some obvious gains on the horizon. The L Train to Brooklyn's hottest neighborhoods is closing for over a year. The PATH extension to EWR will keep more folks going to Wall Street in NJ hotels and flying to and from here and spending accordingly. And the 7 train stopping in northern Hudson County would be a huge boon there.

What NJ cannot do is allow itself to become noncompetitive to the other burbs. We already are seeing decay and population loss in parts of the state without good PT.

NJ's gain from those who work in NYC is diminished by the fact that those wages are earned in, and taxed by NY, not NJ. Considering how much state aid goes to places like JC that keeps their property taxes artificially low (state aid that comes from the income tax they're not paying), those people actually end up costing the state a fair amount.

 

[RU4Real]

I know Oracle has a presence, although I don't know how large.

The tech companies that have a presence in NYC have it for a reason (mainly clustering with other clusters, but also access to the types of capital described above).

The industries that make up NYCs economy aren't relocating to Newark to access NJ's talent at the expense of the 13 or so million folks that have access to Manhattan on the east side of the Hudson River.

As long as those industries are clustering in NYC, the tech companies are going to continue to increase their presence in those clusters. If you know or believe otherwise it would be interesting to read your take.

My take is that HP closed their NYC offices several years ago. Dell EMC has the 3 floors of 2 Penn that HP used to have and on any given day there are 10 people in that office. The Liberty Corner office in Warren has far more people.

There's simply no reason to maintain a physical presence in NYC because A) the real estate is expensive and B) nobody works in offices anymore. I'm a senior manager for a super-large tech company and, as far as work goes, I haven't left my house in a year. My project teams consist of members who can, and do, live all over the world.

Sales people visit customers at the customer sites. Meetings are held virtually. The very large telecom that I'm working with now is completely unable to put together a F2F project meeting because the project stakeholders are never in an office and live in 5 different time zones. Add to all this the fact that nobody, tech or otherwise, is building data centers in NYC anymore. It's far too cost prohibitive. Also the city of New York has a completely ludicrous fire code which requires that all fire suppression systems for data centers be water systems rather than inert gas.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

NJT and Amtrak should be privatized. The state and federal governments are incapable of running train operations. The government's role should be to subsidize rates, especially for lower income residents. Probably should cap the profit margin like with utilities and own the train line right of ways. The fact of the matter is, rates are too low and way too many unprofitable routes and times need to be eliminated.

One of your dumber posts--which is saying something

 

[brianoc]

My brother is a vp at IBM and he has not reported to an office as far back as I can remember

 

[soundcrib]

My take is that HP closed their NYC offices several years ago. Dell EMC has the 3 floors of 2 Penn that HP used to have and on any given day there are 10 people in that office. The Liberty Corner office in Warren has far more people.

There's simply no reason to maintain a physical presence in NYC because A) the real estate is expensive and B) nobody works in offices anymore. I'm a senior manager for a super-large tech company and, as far as work goes, I haven't left my house in a year. My project teams consist of members who can, and do, live all over the world.

Sales people visit customers at the customer sites. Meetings are held virtually. The very large telecom that I'm working with now is completely unable to put together a F2F project meeting because the project stakeholders are never in an office and live in 5 different time zones. Add to all this the fact that nobody, tech or otherwise, is building data centers in NYC anymore. It's far too cost prohibitive. Also the city of New York has a completely ludicrous fire code which requires that all fire suppression systems for data centers be water systems rather than inert gas.

Where do you work?

 

[RU_Planning]

My take is that HP closed their NYC offices several years ago. Dell EMC has the 3 floors of 2 Penn that HP used to have and on any given day there are 10 people in that office. The Liberty Corner office in Warren has far more people.

There's simply no reason to maintain a physical presence in NYC because A) the real estate is expensive and B) nobody works in offices anymore. I'm a senior manager for a super-large tech company and, as far as work goes, I haven't left my house in a year. My project teams consist of members who can, and do, live all over the world.

Sales people visit customers at the customer sites. Meetings are held virtually. The very large telecom that I'm working with now is completely unable to put together a F2F project meeting because the project stakeholders are never in an office and live in 5 different time zones. Add to all this the fact that nobody, tech or otherwise, is building data centers in NYC anymore. It's far too cost prohibitive. Also the city of New York has a completely ludicrous fire code which requires that all fire suppression systems for data centers be water systems rather than inert gas.

I think our difference in views is due to different takes on what a tech company is.

NYC has increased its tech workforce by over 70% from 2004 to 2014 (https://nycfuture.org/data/nycs-tech-profile)
This in large part was due to former Mayor Bloomberg putting a significant emphasis on diversifying the City's economy.

With regards to data centers, NYC isn't the only place losing out on data centers. Many companies are opening data centers in low energy cost countries like Uruguay. Besides, data centers generate very little employment. So while important in the overall infrastructure of tech they don't really play a role in clustering.

 

[NotInRHouse]

NJ's gain from those who work in NYC is diminished by the fact that those wages are earned in, and taxed by NY, not NJ. Considering how much state aid goes to places like JC that keeps their property taxes artificially low (state aid that comes from the income tax they're not paying), those people actually end up costing the state a fair amount.

And they are the ones paying the higher property taxes keeping NJ municipalities afloat. And more sales taxes on the weekends. Look at the towns and cities where most people are commuting into NJ and it's reflected there. Outside of the Morristown area, the Brain Corridor between RU and Princeton, and increasingly Hudson County, there are few places that compete salary wise with NYC in North Jersey.

And Jersey City doesn't have deflated property taxes. First of all, in terms of aid, the Abbott formulas deal with students in the school. The NJ Constitution requires a proper education. It doesn't say anything about taxing wealthy childless people extra because they happen to live in the same city as those children. It's the same baloney argument in Hoboken, Asbury and Long Branch.

Second of all, Jersey City has been one of the very few cities in NJ with substantial job growth. It employees plenty of suburban NJ citizens who rely on the PATH, HBLR, and other PT to get here. And NJ gets that revenue.

And lastly, Jersey City challenged the reval because it was set up by Crooked Healey. A quick look at the taxes people actually pay here shows they are hardly deflated. I have a 1BR with an abatement and my taxes are $6200. Compare and contrast to the burbs who are consistently shrilling on I went to pay my taxes early and there was another guy with an abatement paying 24k...with an abatement. This is just another narrative perpetuated by the NJ GOP to deflect from places like Phillipsburg and Keansburg being on the Abbott list, Lakewood being a disaster and Sussex, Warren and Ocean losing people and struggling to pay the bills.

 

[RU_Planning]

My brother is a vp at IBM and he has not reported to an office as far back as I can remember

IBM announced a change in their work from home policy this past summer. Not sure if it will change things for your brother though.

The Rise and Fall of Working From Home
https://bloom.bg/2tyGrEX

 

[Wolv RU]

And they are the ones paying the higher property taxes keeping NJ municipalities afloat. And more sales taxes on the weekends. Look at the towns and cities where most people are commuting into NJ and it's reflected there. Outside of the Morristown area, the Brain Corridor between RU and Princeton, and increasingly Hudson County, there are few places that compete salary wise with NYC in North Jersey.

And Jersey City doesn't have deflated property taxes. First of all, in terms of aid, the Abbott formulas deal with students in the school. The NJ Constitution requires a proper education. It doesn't say anything about taxing wealthy childless people extra because they happen to live in the same city as those children. It's the same baloney argument in Hoboken, Asbury and Long Branch.

Second of all, Jersey City has been one of the very few cities in NJ with substantial job growth. It employees plenty of suburban NJ citizens who rely on the PATH, HBLR, and other PT to get here. And NJ gets that revenue.

And lastly, Jersey City challenged the reval because it was set up by Crooked Healey. A quick look at the taxes people actually pay here shows they are hardly deflated. I have a 1BR with an abatement and my taxes are $6200. Compare and contrast to the burbs who are consistently shrilling on I went to pay my taxes early and there was another guy with an abatement paying 24k...with an abatement. This is just another narrative perpetuated by the NJ GOP to deflect from places like Phillipsburg and Keansburg being on the Abbott list, Lakewood being a disaster and Sussex, Warren and Ocean losing people and struggling to pay the bills.

Those folks certainly do pay property, sales, and other taxes. It's just that they pay less than those that also work in NJ.

And however you divide it out, the entire income tax is dedicated to property tax relief. So the point is that every person that doesn't have NJ income but lives in NJ is benefiting from the income tax fund (by paying lower property taxes that are subsidized in part by the income tax) but not paying it.

Jersey City receives a larger portion of the income tax fund than do some other communities. Whether that is correct policy or not is a different question, but it's just a fact. That means that the property taxes there are lower than they would be without receiving that portion of the income tax fund -- it does not mean that property taxes aren't high on their own -- just that they are lower than they would be.

These are just facts.

The reason I think this point is important is because NY looks at these projects as NJ priorities, and NJ too often lets this happen. NY benefits more than NJ from these transportation projects -- the long term effects of fewer wanting to commute from NJ to NY would affect both states. I don't think the mentality that NJ is "competing" against other suburbs for those commuters is the right way to look at it. That is the type of thinking that allows NY to take out everything that could be good about a transportation project (like the original ARC project -- that NJ even considered paying a dime to the final plan which rail advocates knew was a disaster is a symptom of this problem).

 

[RU4Real]

NYC has increased its tech workforce by over 70% from 2004 to 2014 (https://nycfuture.org/data/nycs-tech-profile)
This in large part was due to former Mayor Bloomberg putting a significant emphasis on diversifying the City's economy.

Much of that increase is in Brooklyn and the Bronx - the latter due almost entirely to the construction of the PSAC2 center for NYPD and FDNY.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Those folks certainly do pay property, sales, and other taxes. It's just that they pay less than those that also work in NJ.

And however you divide it out, the entire income tax is dedicated to property tax relief. So the point is that every person that doesn't have NJ income but lives in NJ is benefiting from the income tax fund (by paying lower property taxes that are subsidized in part by the income tax) but not paying it.

Jersey City receives a larger portion of the income tax fund than do some other communities. Whether that is correct policy or not is a different question, but it's just a fact. That means that the property taxes there are lower than they would be without receiving that portion of the income tax fund -- it does not mean that property taxes aren't high on their own -- just that they are lower than they would be.

These are just facts.

The reason I think this point is important is because NY looks at these projects as NJ priorities, and NJ too often lets this happen. NY benefits more than NJ from these transportation projects -- the long term effects of fewer wanting to commute from NJ to NY would affect both states. I don't think the mentality that NJ is "competing" against other suburbs for those commuters is the right way to look at it. That is the type of thinking that allows NY to take out everything that could be good about a transportation project (like the original ARC project -- that NJ even considered paying a dime to the final plan which rail advocates knew was a disaster is a symptom of this problem).

You are saying that, but look at towns on the train lines. Are not NYC workers part of their lifeblood for property taxes?

I would take up tax allocation especially school-related with our current gov while he's around. As you know, JC schools only left state control last year.

It is a competition. If the train lines shut tomorrow, how many people are going to move to NJ to raise families? How would it effect property values? The reality is NJ is a place that is "sold" to NYC workers as being superior to LI, Westchester/CT and city life itself. We need those workers here to sustain the area say north of 1-195. Again, NJ with a few important pockets does not have a lot of high paying jobs.

 

[RU4Real]

IBM announced a change in their work from home policy this past summer. Not sure if it will change things for your brother though.

The Rise and Fall of Working From Home
https://bloom.bg/2tyGrEX

IBM is a desperate and rapidly sinking entity. The Bloomberg article you cited very clearly describes IBM's tightening of remote work policies as an effort to foster some level of teamwork which they feel is necessary to right the ship.

Managing remote teams is a skill, like any other. Some people aren't cut out to work in that environment and the logical and appropriate solution is to evaluate them on an individual basis and, if need be, eliminate those who are unable to perform. That's precisely what we do. I've had guys who would use the opportunity of remote work to go missing for hours (or days) on end. It's an easily remediated problem.

 

[Wolv RU]

You are saying that, but look at towns on the train lines. Are not NYC workers part of their lifeblood for property taxes?

I would take up tax allocation especially school-related with our current gov while he's around. As you know, JC schools only left state control last year.

It is a competition. If the train lines shut tomorrow, how many people are going to move to NJ to raise families? How would it effect property values? The reality is NJ is a place that is "sold" to NYC workers as being superior to LI, Westchester/CT and city life itself. We need those workers here to sustain the area say north of 1-195. Again, NJ with a few important pockets does not have a lot of high paying jobs.

If we take your scenario through to its logical completion, NJ towns lose some people. But at the same time, they no longer have to provide services for the same larger population. The towns' costs would decrease as a result.

The current Governor has nothing to do with how the sales tax is used. The constitution states:

7. a. No tax shall be levied on personal incomes of individuals, estates and trusts of this State unless the entire net receipts therefrom shall be received into the treasury, placed in a perpetual fund designated the Property Tax Relief Fund and be annually appropriated, pursuant to formulas established from time to time by the Legislature, to the several counties, municipalities and school districts of this State exclusively for the purpose of reducing or offsetting property taxes.

This guarantees that anyone that pays property taxes but not income taxes in NJ is receiving some type of discount on property taxes compared to the other citizens.

Also, NJ isn't being "sustained" now. The state is in huge financial trouble. Arguably, it could use a change in its direction from trying to become the housing alternative for NY employees.

It is a matter of opinion, but mine is that NY gains more than NJ from the philosophy you have. At least some non-insignificant percentage of jobs that are currently located in Manhattan would not be there if NJ did not have reliable commuting transportation options to get to those jobs.

 

[RU_Planning]

Much of that increase is in Brooklyn and the Bronx - the latter due almost entirely to the construction of the PSAC2 center for NYPD and FDNY.

Per the link, Manhattan's tech employment grew by almost 80%.

 

[NotInRHouse]

If we take your scenario through to its logical completion, NJ towns lose some people. But at the same time, they no longer have to provide services for the same larger population. The towns' costs would decrease as a result.

The current Governor has nothing to do with how the sales tax is used. The constitution states:

7. a. No tax shall be levied on personal incomes of individuals, estates and trusts of this State unless the entire net receipts therefrom shall be received into the treasury, placed in a perpetual fund designated the Property Tax Relief Fund and be annually appropriated, pursuant to formulas established from time to time by the Legislature, to the several counties, municipalities and school districts of this State exclusively for the purpose of reducing or offsetting property taxes.

This guarantees that anyone that pays property taxes but not income taxes in NJ is receiving some type of discount on property taxes compared to the other citizens.

Also, NJ isn't being "sustained" now. The state is in huge financial trouble. Arguably, it could use a change in its direction from trying to become the housing alternative for NY employees.

It is a matter of opinion, but mine is that NY gains more than NJ from the philosophy you have. At least some non-insignificant percentage of jobs that are currently located in Manhattan would not be there if NJ did not have reliable commuting transportation options to get to those jobs.

My reference is to the state controlling the JC schools.

More and more people the world over are moving to cities, using PT, and living in transit oriented areas. I am not sure why NJ should buck this trend.

Again, outside of a few small areas, there are not a ton of high paying jobs. Disconenecting NJ from the wider region would be a tragedy.

Is it just a coincidence that wealth seems to follow the train lines in the state?

 

[RU4Real]

Per the link, Manhattan's tech employment grew by almost 80%.

I'd be curious to know what they consider "tech employment".

As an industry insider, I can tell you with 100% certainty that these jobs are fleeing the city.

 

[mikeinsec127]

Back to OP.

NJ Transit Heavy Rail:
1. Re-establish NJ Central RR line from AC to JC terminus at Liberty Park JCRR station with ferry service to NYC.
2. Re-establish the West Shore Line and Passaic-Bergaen Line to Hoboken as heavy rail.
3. Re-establish SI North Shore line as heavy rail from St George Ferry Terminal across Arthur Kill bridge to Raritan Valley Line in Cranford, with a stop at Port Richmond for HBLR.
4. Extend out to Pa with Lehigh Valley line from Allentown and Easton to Liberty Park JCRR Station.

NJ Transit Light Rail
5. Extend Hudson Light Rail from Liberty Park Terminal in JC to Newark Penn via abandoned NJ Central heavy rail line.
6. Extend Hudson Light Rail South over Bayonne Bridge to Port Richmond, SI and North on North Branch to Tennafly.
7. Re-establish NJ Transit Newark Branch from Hoboken to Montclair as light rail and extend Newark Light rail North along Rt 21 to Paterson.

Port Authority and MTA
8. Expand Outerbridge Crossing into a three bridge structure. Third bridge for Heavy Rail and extend SIRT from Tottenville to a new park and ride at old Amboy Cinemas with a stop at Amboy Station.
9. Build Greenville to Red Hook freight tunnel to take trucks off of Turnpike, GWB and East river bridges.
10. Rebuild the Spuyten Duyvil bridge on the NY Central West Side freight line and use the line for Metro North passenger service direct into Penn Station with stops along extreme west side of upper Manhattan.
11. Expand Path on NJ side to Liberty State Park, Elizabeth-Downtown and Stevens Tech/North Hoboken
12. Expand PATH on NY side from WTC to Passenger Ship Terminal with stops at PABT, Javis Center, Chelsea Piers, Christopher St and Holland Tunnel

 

[RU_Planning]

IBM is a desperate and rapidly sinking entity. The Bloomberg article you cited very clearly describes IBM's tightening of remote work policies as an effort to foster some level of teamwork which they feel is necessary to right the ship.

Managing remote teams is a skill, like any other. Some people aren't cut out to work in that environment and the logical and appropriate solution is to evaluate them on an individual basis and, if need be, eliminate those who are unable to perform. That's precisely what we do. I've had guys who would use the opportunity of remote work to go missing for hours (or days) on end. It's an easily remediated problem.

Complete agreement on IBM.

The industries that tech companies cluster with in NYC are not necessarily industries that can easily take to employees working from home.

As I mentioned, NYC isn't going to be Silicon Valley, but is going to continue to have an increasing presence as technology continues to play a significant role in non-tech industries that are located in NYC.

 

[RU#1fan]

Murphy will fix it lol

Fatso did such a great job on it.

 

[rufeelinit]

The Raritan Valley Line will never have a one seat ride into NYC.

Remember, first and foremost, that whatever project comes to fruition in the form of a new rail tunnel, the very first thing that happens when it opens is that the old one gets closed for about 10 years worth of repairs.

After that, even with four tubes open, there are no plans to have terminal infrastructure in place to allow every train from every NJT line terminate in Manhattan.

You do realize that the RVL has one seat rides currently during week just non-peak hours meaning from like 9 to 3 and then after 7. At one point the issue was diesel versus electric locomotives since RVL is a diesel line. This necessitated the transfer in Newark. Now they have locomotives that can can convert from one to the other. The other issue is sheer volume and while your point makes sense that is not what NJT has been telling the RVL ridership advocacy groups.

 

[IL Lusciato]

Many, if not most New Jerseyan's are just cheap and selfish with regards to doing anything that may improve the lives of us poor slobs that have to commute into NY and make the money that keeps this state afloat. They have some fantasy vision that Google or Amazon or any other hot company should re-settle in Newark (of all places). New Jersey is adjacent to NEW YORK, one of the great global cities. If NJ were not, the it would, essentially, be Ohio (but without a great football team). For 15 years politicians on both of the aisles in NY and NJ worked to get ARC approved and shovels in the ground. It was a GREAT achievement. With no public discussion Fatso cancelled it all by himself. He claimed great cost overruns...but what he really wanted was to shift monies to not raise the gas tax, and thereby improve his political future. When he cancelled, there was outrage and shock for many reasons...but the Federal Dept of Transportation said Christie flat out lied about the overruns. Furthermore, if Christie were an expert politician, he would have tried to get assurances with regards to the imagined overruns...but he didn't at all. This was a "once in a lifetime" opportunity to improve the lives of New Jerseyan's. Anyone with half a brain knows that Gateway will never happen. Why? Politics, economics, costs....these stars align once in 100 years, and that was ARC. If you live in NJ, as I do, we live in a cheap ass state. During the time that ARC should have been built, NY has embarked on or finished major transportation projects that improve the lives of their citizens and set the city and state up for future generations. 2nd avenue subway, new tappanzee bridge, extension of #7 train to westside, tunneling LIRR into grand central, rebuilding of LaGaurdia airport, the amazingly beautiful transportation hub at WTC. So, you cheapskates keep believing that Christie did something special here. You probably don't have to go into NY every day...but you'll pay anyway when you housing prices decline, because the word is out that it sucks to live in NJ and commute to NY.

Go to a history section in a library and look up corperate law in the early 20th century. New Jersey is a part of a vast metropolis which includes New York and Philadelphia. But we have several natural assets and long-standing corperate assets. Port Newark-elizabeth is among the busiest in the world, and that partly is bc of NYC but partly bc of our own industry and population. Newark airport was the first in this area and the busiest for some time. We have much industry and Enterprise that is home grown as well. There are many competing interests in this state and some such interests are of commuters like you who go to either NY OR Philadelphia...but they are not the only interests that are important. Yes I think we need to spend more on infrastructure, but no, we don't need to get a raw deal just to serve the sole interests of NY commuters and no one else if the expenditures are not fair and do not also encompass our interests, internal infrastructure, and ability to attract and grow our own industry and business.

 

[T2Kplus10]

IBM is a desperate and rapidly sinking entity. The Bloomberg article you cited very clearly describes IBM's tightening of remote work policies as an effort to foster some level of teamwork which they feel is necessary to right the ship.

Managing remote teams is a skill, like any other. Some people aren't cut out to work in that environment and the logical and appropriate solution is to evaluate them on an individual basis and, if need be, eliminate those who are unable to perform. That's precisely what we do. I've had guys who would use the opportunity of remote work to go missing for hours (or days) on end. It's an easily remediated problem.

+1
Seems to be a specific IBM issue.

 

[IL Lusciato]

Back to OP.

NJ Transit Heavy Rail:
1. Re-establish NJ Central RR line from AC to JC terminus at Liberty Park JCRR station with ferry service to NYC.
2. Re-establish the West Shore Line and Passaic-Bergaen Line to Hoboken as heavy rail.
3. Re-establish SI North Shore line as heavy rail from St George Ferry Terminal across Arthur Kill bridge to Raritan Valley Line in Cranford, with a stop at Port Richmond for HBLR.
4. Extend out to Pa with Lehigh Valley line from Allentown and Easton to Liberty Park JCRR Station.

NJ Transit Light Rail
5. Extend Hudson Light Rail from Liberty Park Terminal in JC to Newark Penn via abandoned NJ Central heavy rail line.
6. Extend Hudson Light Rail South over Bayonne Bridge to Port Richmond, SI and North on North Branch to Tennafly.
7. Re-establish NJ Transit Newark Branch from Hoboken to Montclair as light rail and extend Newark Light rail North along Rt 21 to Paterson.

Port Authority and MTA
8. Expand Outerbridge Crossing into a three bridge structure. Third bridge for Heavy Rail and extend SIRT from Tottenville to a new park and ride at old Amboy Cinemas with a stop at Amboy Station.
9. Build Greenville to Red Hook freight tunnel to take trucks off of Turnpike, GWB and East river bridges.
10. Rebuild the Spuyten Duyvil bridge on the NY Central West Side freight line and use the line for Metro North passenger service direct into Penn Station with stops along extreme west side of upper Manhattan.
11. Expand Path on NJ side to Liberty State Park, Elizabeth-Downtown and Stevens Tech/North Hoboken
12. Expand PATH on NY side from WTC to Passenger Ship Terminal with stops at PABT, Javis Center, Chelsea Piers, Christopher St and Holland Tunnel

Great ideas. It s long overdue that we connect and expand our infrastructure in these ways all over Central and north NJ and intwrwined with NYC

 

[ruready4somefootball]

Personally, I don't understand why they haven't revisited reactivating the MOM Line. With all the development of Western Middlesex County, Southwesternern Monmouth County, and Northwestern Ocean County, that rail line would make money,I'm sure. To see the rail-line run right through the center of Freehold, and the old rail station used as a bus depot makes no sense to me.

 

[IL Lusciato]

The thing is though, NJ is benefiting from its citizens earning those higher wages in NYC through taxation. NJ benefits when high wage earners choose to live in Montclair or Princeton or Maplewood or wherever versus LI or CT or the city itself.

The sole reason for growth in Jersey City has been the the quick access to NYC. Goldman was never coming here without it, nor the companies that followed. Yes we have walkability and yes we have sick views but so do many cities in NJ that are still way behind in the game.

Not to mention, NJ has some obvious gains on the horizon. The L Train to Brooklyn's hottest neighborhoods is closing for over a year. The PATH extension to EWR will keep more folks going to Wall Street in NJ hotels and flying to and from here and spending accordingly. And the 7 train stopping in northern Hudson County would be a huge boon there.

What NJ cannot do is allow itself to become noncompetitive to the other burbs. We already are seeing decay and population loss in parts of the state without good PT.

All true. NY cannot be ignored in the analysis and needs to be integrated as with the 7 train ... I just think we should stay mindful of our interests as well.

 

[T2Kplus10]

You do realize that the RVL has one seat rides currently during week just non-peak hours meaning from like 9 to 3 and then after 7. At one point the issue was diesel versus electric locomotives since RVL is a diesel line. This necessitated the transfer in Newark. Now they have locomotives that can can convert from one to the other. The other issue is sheer volume and while your point makes sense that is not what NJT has been telling the RVL ridership advocacy groups.

During peak, RVL has to prove equal or higher volume than one of the existing lines (since NYC crossings are limited). That's a pretty high bar to clear.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Personally, I don't understand why they haven't revisited reactivating the MOM Line. With all the development of Western Middlesex County, Southwesternern Monmouth County, and Northwestern Ocean County, that rail line would make money,I'm sure. To see the rail-line run right through the center of Freehold, and the old rail station used as a bus depot makes no sense to me.

IIRC, the MOM line would require a massive amount of capital, for train lines and stations. And of course, buying the needed right of ways. In my neck of the woods, some residents and county officials are pushing to reopen the West Trenton line, connecting Trenton to Somerville. Not going to happen! The capital investment would be astronomical. CSX owes these tracks and tore out most of the second set of tracks.

 

[RU4Real]

IIRC, the MOM line would require a massive amount of capital, for train lines and stations. And of course, buying the needed right of ways. In my neck of the woods, some residents and county officials are pushing to reopen the West Trenton line, connecting Trenton to Somerville. Not going to happen! The capital investment would be astronomical. CSX owes these tracks and tore out most of the second set of tracks.

Actually, at least one of the three MOM plans would have been pretty easy since it utilizes a current freight line. It wasn't the preferred plan because A) it didn't go to Lakewood, but rather terminated in Freehold and B) the people in Jamesburg were having NIMBY fits because the train tracks run right down Main St (actually known as Railroad Ave). I liked it because the value of my 500k house would have gone to 1M+ practically overnight.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I'm not sure you'd get many impartial, reasoned perspectives with regard to the notion of NYC withering on the vine.

Personally - and this is just my opinion - I think that massive investment in commuter rail between NJ and NYC is a bad idea. I don't think that encouraging the upward growth of Manhattan benefits anyone other than the City and State of New York. Even putting aside my Jersey bias, I believe that the greater benefit is found in spending money to bring more of the global business community to places like Jersey City and Newark and I'd rather see our billions invested in that.

The thing is though, NJ is benefiting from its citizens earning those higher wages in NYC through taxation. NJ benefits when high wage earners choose to live in Montclair or Princeton or Maplewood or wherever versus LI or CT or the city itself.

The sole reason for growth in Jersey City has been the the quick access to NYC. Goldman was never coming here without it, nor the companies that followed. Yes we have walkability and yes we have sick views but so do many cities in NJ that are still way behind in the game.

Not to mention, NJ has some obvious gains on the horizon. The L Train to Brooklyn's hottest neighborhoods is closing for over a year. The PATH extension to EWR will keep more folks going to Wall Street in NJ hotels and flying to and from here and spending accordingly. And the 7 train stopping in northern Hudson County would be a huge boon there.

What NJ cannot do is allow itself to become noncompetitive to the other burbs. We already are seeing decay and population loss in parts of the state without good PT.