OT: Should cursive still be taught in schools

[NickKnight 1]

I trued to explain to my daughter and wife that I did not agree with no Cursive writing in
my grandson's school, and worse yet no emphasis on printing it is what it
is and they don't correct penmanship at all. MY daughter and wife asks
:"what make you smarter than the school system." My reply is just because
this generation of tattooed teachers make changes just for the sake of changes
doesn't make it right. I hate it besides how do they sign documents.

 

[J.L. Gotrocks]

Shouldn't kids be learning slide rules? ;-)

Been a while since I've been in school. Have these gone out of style?

 

[graystork]

This has got to be the world's dumbest thread. I teach 7th grade Social Studies. Know what we were told the other day? We are to teach "Digital Citizenship." Yes, how not to get in trouble in chat rooms, how to never post a picture without giving someone else credit for it, and when it is and is not proper to use an alternate identity. Know where we're supposed to find the extra time to teach it? Well take some time from ancient Greece and Rome and maybe the Age of Exploration. I'm serious. Why learn about that Columbus guy when after all he was responsible for bringing smallpox to the Western Hemisphere and killing Native Americans.

Every day the actual history I get to teach is being gutted and replaced by "character education," "digital citizenship," and other crap that a remotely competent parent should be teaching their kids at home.

And you guys want to worry about cursive? Have at it. Your kids will have beautiful penmanship and not know where Philadelphia is. So much for education in Christie's New Jersey.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

And I can imagine that nearly every document in the world will soon be available in audio format, as prices of storage media come down to near zero and huge projects to digitize gain momentum.

Should we stop teaching children to read?

If you think your kid "didn't do science today" 2-3x a week, for the 34ish weeks he was in school, due to 20 hours of cursive instruction, I worry more for you critical thinking skills, than his nascent biology ability.

You think your child is getting serious STEM instruction in the 2nd grade? As he is being instructed by the sam teacher for english, math, spelling, social studies and science?

 

[ruhudsonfan]

This has got to be the world's dumbest thread. I teach 7th grade Social Studies. Know what we were told the other day? We are to teach "Digital Citizenship." Yes, how not to get in trouble in chat rooms, how to never post a picture without giving someone else credit for it, and when it is and is not proper to use an alternate identity. Know where we're supposed to find the extra time to teach it? Well take some time from ancient Greece and Rome and maybe the Age of Exploration. I'm serious. Why learn about that Columbus guy when after all he was responsible for bringing smallpox to the Western Hemisphere and killing Native Americans.

Every day the actual history I get to teach is being gutted and replaced by "character education," "digital citizenship," and other crap that a remotely competent parent should be teaching their kids at home.

And you guys want to worry about cursive? Have at it. Your kids will have beautiful penmanship and not know where Philadelphia is. So much for education in Christie's New Jersey.

While I sympathize with your situation, I think your example is an epic strawman.

 

[robcac26]

I don't know why I prefer block letters to cursive letters (maybe it has to do with being left handed), but other than when required in grade school, I have never written anything in cursive.

I write everything in block letters and in all caps because it is easy for everyone to read and there is no confusion. I think whether you are taught handwriting in school or not, if you're handwriting is bad as an adult, it is primarily because you just don't care. I actually had to bring this up with someone in an employee evaluation yesterday because his poor handwriting was causing usage counts to become very inaccurate because other employees can't read his numbers, and sometimes he can't even read his own.

 

[Caliknight]

This has got to be the world's dumbest thread. I teach 7th grade Social Studies. Know what we were told the other day? We are to teach "Digital Citizenship." Yes, how not to get in trouble in chat rooms, how to never post a picture without giving someone else credit for it, and when it is and is not proper to use an alternate identity. Know where we're supposed to find the extra time to teach it? Well take some time from ancient Greece and Rome and maybe the Age of Exploration. I'm serious. Why learn about that Columbus guy when after all he was responsible for bringing smallpox to the Western Hemisphere and killing Native Americans.

Every day the actual history I get to teach is being gutted and replaced by "character education," "digital citizenship," and other crap that a remotely competent parent should be teaching their kids at home.

And you guys want to worry about cursive? Have at it. Your kids will have beautiful penmanship and not know where Philadelphia is. So much for education in Christie's New Jersey.

Sounds more like Common Core.

 

[oldman87]

I would like to see science classes replaced by bible studies.

 

[MADHAT1]

 

[REDRICH65]

Why bother? Schools have already stopped teaching courtesy, morality, personal responsibility. They can use the time to teach kids how to react when someone WHO LOOKS like the opposite sex wants to use their bathroom or shower.

 

[RUChoppin]

Kids should be taught how to read cursive, definitely, simply to be able to read primary sources, but I don't know about the hours spent learning to write it. Someone mentioned art class - that might be a better place for teaching the writing of cursive, along with some sort of calligraphy unit or unit on fonts and typographic art.

 

[MoobyCow]

The argument that "my kids will be learning math and become the next Einstein" is about as ridiculous as it gets.

My son is learning it in 3rd grade, though it isn't a priority. They also learned Roman numerals. For a modest investment of 20-30 hours, they can learn something that they'll have for a lifetime and which requires zero additional investment of time or effort.

As someone who employs recent college graduates in technical areas of finance, economics, statistics and coding, I would caution all you STEM or bust guys as it relates to emphasizing STEM to the detriment of soft communicating skills or liberal arts. As we've overcompensated to hard skills, these kids simply cannot communicate at levels that are acceptable. They lack culture or any ability to make "small talk"--which will really put a damper on their ability to transition into leadership roles in our world of consulting. The last thing we should want to emulate are the systems of Asia which produce socially inept robots--regardless of their STEM genius.

All well said, and completely and utterly useless when deciding if you need to learn cursive or not. Cursive isn't going to help with soft skills, or how to better communicate in the workplace, or how to win friends and influence people. Take the time you were going to use to teach them cursive and teach them social skills instead.

Besides all that, my daughter is in second grade, has never been taught cursive and simply picked it up because she was interested. It's not rocket science, if you can read you can figure out script pretty quickly.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

All well said, and completely and utterly useless when deciding if you need to learn cursive or not. Cursive isn't going to help with soft skills, or how to better communicate in the workplace, or how to win friends and influence people. Take the time you were going to use to teach them cursive and teach them social skills instead.

Besides all that, my daughter is in second grade, has never been taught cursive and simply picked it up because she was interested. It's not rocket science, if you can read you can figure out script pretty quickly.

In second grade?

You latched on to a point I didn't make and proved the opposite.

Congrats, I suppose.

One thing that is in agreement on this thread is learning the skill would likely take about 20-25 class hours.

Why not incorporate it into spelling lessons like Sister Mary Rottencrotch did for me?

Nobody is suggesting 50 minutes a day for a school year dedicated to handwriting.

 

[SleepingGiantIsAwake]

This has got to be the world's dumbest thread. I teach 7th grade Social Studies. Know what we were told the other day? We are to teach "Digital Citizenship." Yes, how not to get in trouble in chat rooms, how to never post a picture without giving someone else credit for it, and when it is and is not proper to use an alternate identity. Know where we're supposed to find the extra time to teach it? Well take some time from ancient Greece and Rome and maybe the Age of Exploration. I'm serious. Why learn about that Columbus guy when after all he was responsible for bringing smallpox to the Western Hemisphere and killing Native Americans.

Every day the actual history I get to teach is being gutted and replaced by "character education," "digital citizenship," and other crap that a remotely competent parent should be teaching their kids at home.

And you guys want to worry about cursive? Have at it. Your kids will have beautiful penmanship and not know where Philadelphia is. So much for education in Christie's New Jersey.

And on next year's curriculum, please let everyone know how the "How to Determine What Sexual Orientation You Are Feeling Today" goes, and thank Mr. Obama.

 

[mal359]

Why bother? Schools have already stopped teaching courtesy, morality, personal responsibility. They can use the time to teach kids how to react when someone WHO LOOKS like the opposite sex wants to use their bathroom or shower.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Upstream]

Shouldn't that be "Someday, we old folks"

 

[mildone]

The private schools I know of still teach it.

Sometime in the near future a "progressive" politician will use it as rhetoric against the 1%.

Not everybody's as used to holding a pencil as you, Cali.

 

[mal359]

Shouldn't that be "Someday, we old folks"

I liked both posts because I can't read these moon runes.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Cursive isn't useful. Other than signing their name, most people under 35 or maybe even 40 have likely not used it in years.

I'm sure there are things more useful. One thing I notice is basic geography- how many Americans can name the states, even the ones surrounding their own a map? Or how many can select the US on a world map...there are studies where more people select Brazil. In my adult life, of all the things people whine about having to learn, I've used capitals and abbreviations and some obscure math concepts more than any cursive that didn't involve signing my name.

 

[MoobyCow]

In second grade?

You latched on to a point I didn't make and proved the opposite.

Congrats, I suppose.

One thing that is in agreement on this thread is learning the skill would likely take about 20-25 class hours.

Why not incorporate it into spelling lessons like Sister Mary Rottencrotch did for me?

Nobody is suggesting 50 minutes a day for a school year dedicated to handwriting.

I honestly don't know what point you were trying to make, or at least I couldn't sort out what the point you seemed to be making had to do with learning cursive. Perhaps you need some additional time learning how to communicate ;)

 

[RU-05]

Cursive isn't useful. Other than signing their name, most people under 35 or maybe even 40 have likely not used it in years.

I'm sure there are things more useful. One thing I notice is basic geography- how many Americans can name the states, even the ones surrounding their own a map? Or how many can select the US on a world map...there are studies where more people select Brazil. In my adult life, of all the things people whine about having to learn, I've used capitals and abbreviations and some obscure math concepts more than any cursive that didn't involve signing my name.

Like the 9th grade polynomial kid, the lawyer who didn't know a single person on US currency, and a bunch of other "anecdotes" in this thread, I'm not buying it.

 

[RU-05]

Kids should be taught how to read cursive, definitely, simply to be able to read primary sources, but I don't know about the hours spent learning to write it. Someone mentioned art class - that might be a better place for teaching the writing of cursive, along with some sort of calligraphy unit or unit on fonts and typographic art.

I think we found our solution.

 

[RU-05]

Why bother? Schools have already stopped teaching courtesy, morality, personal responsibility. They can use the time to teach kids how to react when someone WHO LOOKS like the opposite sex wants to use their bathroom or shower.

Was this ever a thing, or did parents always not exist?

 

[RUPete]

My memory may fail me, but I don't think we spent a ton of time on it at school. We spent a portion of a marking period on it and never devoted a full day to it. I think it's useful to have some basic knowledge of putting pen to paper as a back-up.

 

[MozRU]

You write notes to your kids teachers in block letters ?

basically

 

[MozRU]

Totally agree. Our education system seems to deprioritize anything to do with arts or creative thinking after elementary school. I'm all for science and math skills but the most basic skill I see lacking in my teenagers and their friends is simple communication skills. It's to the point that I am impressed when one of my kids 15 year old friends can sit and have a rational conversation with an adult face to face. It's pretty sad that I am impressed by that.

What does writing cursive have to do with communicating with another human being?

The difference between a young person who can converse a well thought out thought and a kid who can't is the amount of reading they did as a child, the number of papers they "typed," and forced communicating in class. As opposed to a kid who played video games and had his face planted in social media the entire time.

 

[FanuSanu52]

While I sympathize with your situation, I think your example is an epic strawman.

Didn't you just bring up reading and audio books? That's like a strawman village you might take the kids to on a brisk October Saturday (bye week).

 

[FanuSanu52]

basically

Don't know why this is surprising. I have notebooks full of print notes that I can read years later.

My mom writes cards in script and sometimes I just gotta give up and get to the "love ya" at the end.

 

[zoby]

While I got straight "A"s in penmanship throughout my school years, I have to admit that at times I have difficulty reading my lists at the grocery store.

 

[MozRU]

This has got to be the world's dumbest thread. I teach 7th grade Social Studies. Know what we were told the other day? We are to teach "Digital Citizenship." Yes, how not to get in trouble in chat rooms, how to never post a picture without giving someone else credit for it, and when it is and is not proper to use an alternate identity. Know where we're supposed to find the extra time to teach it? Well take some time from ancient Greece and Rome and maybe the Age of Exploration. I'm serious. Why learn about that Columbus guy when after all he was responsible for bringing smallpox to the Western Hemisphere and killing Native Americans.

Every day the actual history I get to teach is being gutted and replaced by "character education," "digital citizenship," and other crap that a remotely competent parent should be teaching their kids at home.

And you guys want to worry about cursive? Have at it. Your kids will have beautiful penmanship and not know where Philadelphia is. So much for education in Christie's New Jersey.

This makes me sad. Society is asking you to be a parent to 100 kids a year.

 

[MozRU]

Don't know why this is surprising. I have notebooks full of print notes that I can read years later.

My mom writes cards in script and sometimes I just gotta give up and get to the "love ya" at the end.

I feel ya on that. Too many examples to post here.

 

[RUChoppin]

My memory may fail me, but I don't think we spent a ton of time on it at school. We spent a portion of a marking period on it and never devoted a full day to it. I think it's useful to have some basic knowledge of putting pen to paper as a back-up.

We spent a ton of time on it. Each letter, uppercase and lowercase, was taught and written over and over again. A whole page of the capital "A", then a whole page of the capital "B", etc... then all the lowercase... then you had to practice connecting letters and learn special cases like how a lowercase "o" connects to other letters (like a lowercase "r" or "i"). Easily 50+ hours of instruction just spent on learning an alternate way to write letters.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

I honestly don't know what point you were trying to make, or at least I couldn't sort out what the point you seemed to be making had to do with learning cursive. Perhaps you need some additional time learning how to communicate ;)

If you spent less time with your flash cards and more time reading and communicating with human beings, you would learn the art of nuance.

My point is debates over cursive are symptoms over the greater sickness of overcompensating toward STEM instruction. Somebody decided America had a STEM crisis because children of Indian and Asian heritage scored better on standardized tests. There was no mention that those kids can't barely speak in sentences or make eye contact during a conversation.

It makes even less sense to kvetch over little Suzie missing science class for 8-10 periods of instruction in order to teach her a skill that lasts a lifetime and serves as a small, yet important, link to her cultural past.

There is more to education than differential equations and how many stomachs a cow has...

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Didn't you just bring up reading and audio books? That's like a strawman village you might take the kids to on a brisk October Saturday (bye week).

you're better than this. I brought it up as a ridiculous analogy.

The heat getting to you?

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

Was this ever a thing, or did parents always not exist?

It's 2016, get with it! Kids are now made using 3D printers.

 

[MulletCork]

I went to forge my wife's signature on a document the other day and had to Google how to do it, because I haven't written anything in cursive other than my own signature in probably 25+ years!!

 

[RUPete]

We spent a ton of time on it. Each letter, uppercase and lowercase, was taught and written over and over again. A whole page of the capital "A", then a whole page of the capital "B", etc... then all the lowercase... then you had to practice connecting letters and learn special cases like how a lowercase "o" connects to other letters (like a lowercase "r" or "i"). Easily 50+ hours of instruction just spent on learning an alternate way to write letters.

Sorry, but I don't recall it being that way at all. Different school districts, different experiences. I will always remember my biology teacher quizzing us each week on Latin prefixes and suffixes so we had a better grasp of the terms. It actually helped with my overall vocabulary and reading comprehension.

 

[MoobyCow]

If you spent less time with your flash cards and more time reading and communicating with human beings, you would learn the art of nuance.

My point is debates over cursive are symptoms over the greater sickness of overcompensating toward STEM instruction. Somebody decided America had a STEM crisis because children of Indian and Asian heritage scored better on standardized tests. There was no mention that those kids can't barely speak in sentences or make eye contact during a conversation.

It makes even less sense to kvetch over little Suzie missing science class for 8-10 periods of instruction in order to teach her a skill that lasts a lifetime and serves as a small, yet important, link to her cultural past.

There is more to education than differential equations and how many stomachs a cow has...

I agree with the larger point on STEM education being overemphasized, but I don't see cursive being much of an issue in and of itself and I don't see it as being much of a link to the cultural past, no more so than olde English.

 

[Crazed_RU]

What does writing cursive have to do with communicating with another human being?

The difference between a young person who can converse a well thought out thought and a kid who can't is the amount of reading they did as a child, the number of papers they "typed," and forced communicating in class. As opposed to a kid who played video games and had his face planted in social media the entire time.

I was replying to a post around the over focus on STEM. Sorry if I drifted off the "cursive" topic - I clearly have diminished communication skills.

 

[Upstream]

With all due respect, you suffer from failure of imagination. As technology improves, I can just as easily envision a completely digital future.

"What dream of the mind's eye will remake the world?"
-Carl Sagan

Quite honestly, you are the one failing to imagine here.

In a digital future, there still needs to be a mechanism to convert your thoughts to a digital medium. Maybe one day computers will be able to read your thoughts, eliminating the need for another interface. But that seems somewhat unlikely to happen before today's schoolkids become adults. So there is still a need for some sort of interface.

Right now, the keyboard and mouse are the most common interfaces, with the mouse being replaced by touch screens. And sometimes the physical keyboard is replaced by the digital keyboard on a touch screen.

The other common interface is voice recognition. But there are lots of instances where voice recognition is not appropriate, especially in areas where you don't want to make noise, you want to keep information confidential, or too many people using voice interfaces would be disruptive (like a classroom setting).

But right now, pretty much the only quiet interface is some sort of keyboard. And as good as keyboard are, they are somewhat cumbersome, space consuming, and require two hands to operate efficiently. A keyboard may be fine if you are typing a long paper or you're sitting down at a desk to do work. But for when you are on the go, or just need to make a quick note, it is far from ideal.

But imagine. What if there were some sort of interface that took up less room, that only required one hand, that you could use anywhere? That interface exists in handwriting. With improved handwriting recognition, you wouldn't need a keyboard. You could use the whole screen on your tablet or phone .... or better yet, maybe you could use your finger to write in the air.

If you want bigger fonts, just write bigger letters, If you want to draw a line or circle, just draw it. Handwriting gives you all sorts of flexibility that is not so easy with a keyboard.

Just imagine.