Thans, Fanu! We have 4Runners and Xterras, in fact, all that you've mentioned except maybe the Patrol. But I live on the less populated part of NZ, so the Aucklanders may have that!
OT: What car to buy?
- Thread starter zealott
- Start date
Thans, Fanu! We have 4Runners and Xterras, in fact, all that you've mentioned except maybe the Patrol. But I live on the less populated part of NZ, so the Aucklanders may have that!
Dude, you live under Down Under. You are obligated to buy the Holden Ute that the rest of us can't have.
Holdens are pretty popular down here. Basically Chevys built in Aussie. I laughed when I saw the photo as when most kiwis think ute, they think of a pos ragtag beater with a single cab and a flatbed back with wire or wood sides to carry hay and sheep.
We had this yellow Morris for a while, and it was a beautiful car, but just about next to useless. No power, miserable brakes, had to use a choke to start it. But it looked great.
Hell, I put a couple non-functioning panels on my front roof just because my neighbors couldn't see the ones on my back roof.
No sense having solar if you can't broadcast to the world that you're better than them.
:pizza:
Skillet, what's that in the background? You give up on the pizza oven and decide to build a whole pizza parlor? :pizza:Holdens are pretty popular down here. Basically Chevys built in Aussie. I laughed when I saw the photo as when most kiwis think ute, they think of a pos ragtag beater with a single cab and a flatbed back with wire or wood sides to carry hay and sheep.
We had this yellow Morris for a while, and it was a beautiful car, but just about next to useless. No power, miserable brakes, had to use a choke to start it. But it looked great.
Hah! Shot's a couple years old. It's a house we rented when we were building our place (see below). The thing you saw was a kind of pergola our landlord put up. It's like a house with no roof. I have no idea what he was thinking. As far as my pizza oven is concerned, it's still on hold. I can't believe I'm married to Santillo's granddaughter and I can't get a pizza oven!
Hah! Shot's a couple years old. It's a house we rented when we were building our place (see below). The thing you saw was a kind of pergola our landlord put up. It's like a house with no roof. I have no idea what he was thinking. As far as my pizza oven is concerned, it's still on hold. I can't believe I'm married to Santillo's granddaughter and I can't get a pizza oven!
You have to stop posting this picture. I'm concerned that @mildone is gonna wind up with his name on a list...
Skillet - you obviously have one heck of a property there in NZ. How about an up-to-date picture? I understand if you're sensitive about posting a picture of your home, but how about a picture of the view behind your home??
Probably too late. If there's any such list, I'm probably already on it.
I've been talking about sheep this way for over 20 years. I have friends that gave me a life-size inflatable sheep doll for Christmas almost 10 years ago. I finally un-packaged and inflated it for my annual Halloween party a couple years back.
I don't want to start any rumors, and I was deep into some Macallan and Balvenie at the time, so I can't be sure, but I could swear @RU848789, who was supposed to be DJ-ing, and the sheep doll had mysteriously disappeared for a while during the party.
So all I can hope for now is that the authorities have a sense of humor.
And, as you may have heard, he has several degrees in the field of chemistry, so he probably roofied her.
Not that there was any need. I'd be willing to bet that by the time he finished explaining to her the precise chemical composition of date-rape drugs, the complex process of creating them and why he was the most qualified person to expound on the subject, she was already dead.
Regarding EV's, those batteries are an environmental disaster. Anyone who thinks they are doing the environment good by driving one is uninformed.
I read an article recently that states it takes 10 years for the those vehicles to start paying environmental dividends. I will see if I can dig it up. Let's see how many of these people are driving those cars in year 11 existence.
To the OP, get the Audi and don't look back.
I read an article recently that states it takes 10 years for the those vehicles to start paying environmental dividends. I will see if I can dig it up. Let's see how many of these people are driving those cars in year 11 existence.
To the OP, get the Audi and don't look back.
I took the wife's A4 in for service this morning and the loaner car that Catena in Freehold gave me is a 2015 A4 Prestige S-Line.
It's so freakin' sweet.
The man loves and knows his science.
As for boring a "partner" to death, (no pun intended) I have no right to talk. A handful of years back, I got into a deep discussion about abortion with our smoking hot waitress (always a good pickup topic) during a boys night out. RU#s and other guys that were there later confiscated my man card. I've tried pointing out that at least she kept coming back to talk with me. But I have yet to live that down.
As we both know, you were beyond hammered that night and I never get hammered, so I'm guessing you don't really want me to reveal what really happened between you and the inflatable sheep doll that Halloween - but I'm guessing the board would love to know. Blackmail anyone?
Chemical engineering, not chemistry. And for the record, I've never had to use drugs on any farm animals, including sheep.
Yes, that night is definitely in your "Not Top Ten."
Can't blackmail me for something I've already admitted. Not to mention I could reverse blackmail you by telling everyone what your favorite drink is. I think we're looking at a mutually assured destruction scenario here. Anyway, that was a fun night, the bits I can remember at least.
This, with respect to sheep at least, is undeniably true. Because it's a well established fact that sheep never say no.
I was this :pray: close to getting her phone number. :cool2:
Here I am. Although my profession appears to be the most dumped on in the public sector right now, it’s a busy time of year for it and I apparently don’t have the same kind of time to visit a message board while working (or being retired) like the rest of you do or while at home chasing around my 3 year old.
What are these “tailgate wenches” you speak of? My days for possession of or affiliation with any such persons are long gone.
“The thread was started by someone who wanted to know about luxury performance sedans. While the Tesla is an interesting curiosity it's certainly not a best of breed performance sedan - the reliability issues have been significant.”
The title of the thread (What car to buy?) doesn’t mention it being solely about “luxury performance sedans.” The initial post also only says that maybe “a sedan” would be a nice complement to an Odyssey and the only real qualification made says “don't need a muscle car or 400 horses.” I don’t see how a Model S gets wiped out from the discussion because you decide later the whole thread is all about “best of breed performance sedans.” Have you driven a Model S? I have on several occasions and it’s incredibly low center of gravity because of the battery pack’s and engine’s placement makes its handling (and resulting low roll potential and high safety rating) very unique and in my opinion, worthy of being called a high performance sedan. But what do I know, I otherwise drive a Prius daily.
What is the long list of reliability issues that you speak of? I am only aware of software-related issues that usually were remedied rather quickly OTA and of course, the 5 fires that received disproportionately more attention from the media than the thousands of fires (explosions) that happen in ICE cars every year with a combustible liquid nearby. The gouging of the aluminum plate protecting the lithium ion batteries caused by high speed collisions of some of the cars with road debris like tow hitches while it was at its lowest height setting led to the plate’s very quick replacement with a titanium version (free of charge to all new and legacy owners) and the software increased the minimum height of the car while travelling at high speeds. In each case, the car warned the driver they should pull over and leave the car and 10-15 minutes passed before a real fire broke out. Motor Trend, Car & Driver and Consumer Reports certainly wouldn’t name a car with “significant reliability issues” “Car of the Year” (sometimes, more than once). You’ll have to enlighten me about these issues.
As an aside, a safer car than the Model S doesn’t exist as detailed here so since the OP’s wife already owns an Odyssey, unless no one else but the OP will ever ride in this new car, I’m thinking family safety will play at least some part in the purchase, too.
“I have no misconceptions about EVs. On the contrary, you seem to be able to do little more than parrot talking points. To the extent that EV purchases are subsidized - guess what? That's not "free money". It's tax revenue. Macroeconomics can be your friend.”
“I don't understand why Tesla isn't being sued for making the claim.
A $10k fuel savings over 5 years (which at today's fuel prices is right about 4,000 gallons or 81,000 miles at a very conservative 20 mpg, which is more than most people drive) doesn't LOWER the price of the car.”
Hey, thanks for the condescending tip. But I’m good – I remember well the basics of micro and macro from the great eco prof who taught them to us at the RU College of Engineering and I have had to make use of them quite often in my occupation and life. I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you never claimed outrage when marketers of other products and services have used very similar, very common “value prop” in their advertising. What’s especially ironic about your indignation is that in the case of Tesla, you have to actually visit their site to see the tax and gas savings get subtracted from the cost since Elon Musk refuses to use more traditional, external advertising means based on a personal belief it is a practice based on deception. If the price gets posted as such by a magazine or other media outlet with a story on the Model S, that’s on them. I also am going to guess that you never got on your soapbox in the past to protest the tax breaks both individual and business purchasers of SUVs got in some cases. Governments make laws, regulate and sometimes provide political or financial incentives to encourage certain social or economic behaviors. Take your beef up with the fed government on this one with their decision to motivate high end car shoppers (not just potential buyers of the Leaf and Volt) to buy a luxury sedan EV. If the purchase of a specific thing leads to a direct reduction in your taxes, I find it very reasonable for that thing’s seller to point that out and state its existence in relation to the competitive pricing of its product. Other people with a brain like yours that think it’s b.s. won’t do the suggested subtraction. If you think it’s deceptive and other people won’t see through it to consider the real price, they probably shouldn’t be shopping for a high performance sedan in the first place.
“Additionally, all EVs now use lithium ion batteries. Educate yourself on something called the "lithium cycle". Learn how lithium is one of the most rare of the rare earth elements, how it's not renewable and how 90% of all lithium deposits are found in countries which are unfriendly to our interests (China is the biggest producer) or have unstable governments (Chile). Learn also that the process of mining, extracting and refining lithium is one of the most environmentally horrific processes in the modern world and that entire ecosystems (again, Chile) have been completely destroyed by the process.”
OK, this equally condescending and “all over the place” lesson in science and natural resources really did elicit a chuckle. This completes my 24th year of teaching mostly honors or AP-level physics and chem at a well-respected high school in southern NJ. After writing the curriculum for an accelerated level planetary science elective for juniors and seniors in 2001, I have taught it since and naturally I have been required to know what I am talking about in this area.
“Lithium cycle???” That’s when I laughed. I sure hope you are referring to the “life cycle” of the element in batteries because by definition, a nonrenewable resource like a metal can’t have a natural cycle that restores it to an earlier state. It is NOT a rare earth metal (Google it) – it is an alkali metal and it comes in at #33 on the abundance list of the 78 elements found in the crust. Your logic suggests then we should also just stop mining/extracting/buying from enemies elements like lead, boron, tin, uranium, silver and gold (just to name a few) that are below it on the abundance list. Yes, like any active metal in a battery, the passage of time and the temperature extremes that occur within this specific type of battery lead to degradation of its ability to ionize and transport electrons internally. It appears though that lithium has potential to be recyclable but the facts that 1) 1st generation hybrids still have functioning batteries and 2) lithium is so inexpensive (around $3 or $4 a pound) has not led to any serious R&D efforts on the process. Lithium only accounts for about 3% of the cost of lithium-ion batteries despite being its namesake with cobalt and nickel being more expensive elements within them.
OK, when you raise environmental and political concerns related to lithium mining and commerce, let me make sure I’m clear on this – are your concerns for the damaged ecologies and political instabilities of Bolivia, Chile and China actually trying to sell us all on the lack of both and ecological virtues that accompany drilling, transporting and using………oil? OK, that time, I smirked.
Ask the folks in California how the 59 million dollar clean-up of last month’s spill alone is going and just take a look at how often (usually at least once a year) billions of gallons of oil are spilled/leaked potentially anywhere in the world as we transport it to serve as a “mobile ecosystem wrecking system” that makes a static stripped mine seem much more manageable. Unless you are proposing we start policing the world with our military for yet another reason, this time environmental, history has shown us that nations run by totalitarian governments will always go for the fast money at the expense of their environments and people with diplomacy and economic sanctions usually our only options. But cutting off our nose in spite of our face has never been the right choice if the mined/drilled commodity in question was vital to a crucial, maturing technology. Thank God you weren’t in a position of power in 1973 during the Arab-Israeli Conflict when the hatred from and instability in the Middle East had us twisting in the wind or we would have never become the number 1 oil-producing nation in the world that we are today.
If you want to express concerns about lithium being “nonrenewable” (despite such small amounts of it being needed in batteries), don’t forget that oil and its sisters coal and natural gas are not endless but “endful” (as shown in great detail in this blog that I strongly recommend), with disastrous economic consequences that will be massive as they just start to run out in the not too distant future. 30 years ago when I was in high school, there were 4 billion people on this planet. Now we are looking at 7 billion. Even when taking into consideration how new reserves of each are often discovered over time with new technologies, with the rapidly growing, car-buying middle class in China kicking into gear, here’s a conservative estimate of how much we have left of each:
If we instead consider how the consumption of coal will likely accelerate once oil and natural gas begin to dwindle, here’s a more pessimistic outlook:
The 2nd outlook includes my daughter’s lifetime and before I get too far away from addressing your environmental concerns about the use of lithium, I haven’t even addressed what fossil fuels turn into once used. I won’t make the mistake of being two specific with what I say here (as the issue I’m touching on turns threads into liberal vs. conservative pissing matches that moves them to the CE board) but what is depicted in these graphs just can’t be good:
You accused me of “parroting talking points” earlier. I must say in return that your lithium rant sure made me feel like I had just opened up an issue of Newsmax or sat down in front of Fox News, like you were straight from an oil corporation’s PR or marketing firm shouting “nothing to see here” about the tech that supports zero emissions EVs. I felt like I was hearing all over again about the economic and geopolitical dangers of buying and depending on Chinese solar panels as their proliferation began to threaten the utilities that were completely in bed long term with coal and nuclear power. In the end, the largest solar installer in the US, Solar City, is now about to start making its own panels in New York, with more domestic production on the horizon.
“Then, since you're such a fan of reading, study the Tesla S a bit more. The price on the 75D (the cheapest) is $75k. The lower prices quoted include the $7500 federal tax credit and "$10,000 in gas savings". For that you get 0-60 in 5.2 seconds. Yeah, that's not so great for that kind of money.
And here's a lesson in consumerism - any time a prospective seller quotes you a price that includes some putative, prospective savings, you should walk away.
To get the Model S that everyone really wants - the fast one with the little "hyperspace button" on the dashboard - $105,000. And there are options on top of that.
You're not making your money back with a Tesla. The money you would save by just buying a plain, old luxury performance sedan more than pays for the gas you use.”
Look – at 47, I’m no longer a young buck sowing my oats or trying to score chicks or “tailgate wenches” with a super fast accelerating car. 0-60 in 5.2 in the suburbs with a small child buckled up in the back most of the time is plenty for me and maybe the OP who’s wife has a minivan since again, the thread wasn’t titled “What car to buy that goes 0-60 faster than 5 seconds?” If you want to only dwell on performance numbers though, I am all about the 50 to 70 in 2 seconds with instantaneous torque and acceleration most ICE cars for 75k can’t deliver while on the highway, the only time most of us ever need to accelerate fast for a practical, non-“bad boy” reason.
I keep looking at the additional options that you say are necessary for inclusion if I want a decent “hyperspace”-capable car that jack its cost up to 105k and I’m just not seeing it. A sun roof would be nice along with their premium sound system but I don’t need them just like I don’t need their more potent batteries and engines to go from rest to 60 mph any faster. At a net of 67,500, IMHO I get an awesome, incredibly safe car which I never claimed would end up “making my money back” – I simply pointed out that the tax credit and potential gas savings for some like me make its lower out of pocket costs over 5-10 years worth considering (I’ll be more specific below as to why I would specifically save a LOT because of my house’s solar system).
“Look, I'm not anti-Tesla. Like I said - cool car. I just think it's ironic that I'm getting scolded by Tesla guy for being a knowledge-deficient snob while he's believing that "savings" actually lowers the price of the car.”
If you truly think the car is a curiosity and cool, then we are in the same boat, but I’ll take that curiosity a step further. I find it ridiculous and absurd that we more or less depend on the same transportation technology that was available 200 years ago. Case in point, here is a steam engine’s source of propulsion in 1815:
…and here is your 4 cylinder engine of today:
Sure, we now inject a highly combustible fuel into the cylinders at just the right moment in just the right amounts with the help of onboard computers but it is still an engine that runs on the same basic principles that those with the burning of coal to create steam did. In the end, only about 25% of the energy in gasoline pushes a car forward (some estimates say less) with the rest lost as useless heat despite the liberal use of oil in engines to keep contact surfaces sliding over each other.
An AC induction motor is far simpler and much more efficient:
…with an axle through the heart of a bar magnet that is strongly attracted (or repelled) and spun by magnetic forces that are created by AC at points A, B and C for immediate acceleration on demand and an efficiency of 85% to 90%. It is a perfect demonstration of the axiom “keep it simple, stupid” (K.I.S.S.) in automotive engineering that gives you a car that basically should only require the replacement of its tires and cabin filters for lifetime maintenance (which is so far true for the 2 Model S owners I know with cars from the first production year in 2011). Call me a foolish early adopter that pays more than he should but I want to not only own but also support the growth of this kind of smarter technology that leaves a much smaller environmental mark on my daughter’s future world (with tiny use of lithium considered) than any other luxury sedan in existence.
As for how owning a Model S would indeed result in savings for me personally, here is a breakdown of how my switch to solar panels for electricity from using my utility, the thieves at Atlantic City Electric, has gone so far:
I’ll briefly try to explain what this shows – that since I pushed for a system from Solar City that would produce 95% of our kWh consumption from the 12 months before its design (the maximum allowable by law), we are not only saving about $100 month over what we would have paid ACE in 2014-15 anyway but I am intentionally “banking” a huge amount of kWhs that I can instead use to charge an EV in the future. Yes, I am losing money right now (the excess 1242 so far has a retail value of $174) by not actually using the excess kWhs my system creates (since after a year, only its wholesale value gets refunded to me which is far less than the retail price I had to buy it with) but since I still stand to save about $1000-$1200 each year over what I used to pay, I can handle that loss until I buy an EV. So right now, I appear to be headed for the “banking” of about 2000 kWhs in the first year of my system’s operation. Even during this June which has been hot (in need of running the AC often) but often overcast (not a ton of kWhs produced by our panels), my meter still reads 100 kWhs below where it started the month.
The bottom line is this: 2000 kWhs ($280 worth of electrical power from SC) is exactly the energy I need to cover my commuting to work with a Models S for a calendar year. I am POSITIVE gasoline for the same year commuting with a luxury sedan using premium or regular gasoline would cost much more. So even though we are paying $100 less than we used to for the power we now get from our panels, it already includes what I need to go to work every day for a year with a Tesla EV. Add to that the fact that for the regular trips we take to Virginia to visit family, we will pass 2 Tesla supercharging stations that will be completely FREE OF CHARGE fill up spots for my car’s battery for the life of the car (with my wife and child preferring to make frequent stops on long trips anyway), getting a Tesla is a no brainer for me with all costs considered.
“No. He said "My contribution to this discussion was about the Tesla Model S that I plan to buy next." I call bullshit.”
Here’s where you might be right. With the impending dissolution of my pension a real possibility with me 10+ years out from retiring, it would be irresponsible for me to purchase a Model S while still wanting to play a part in funding at least some part of my 3 year old daughter’s future education. It now looks like a wait until 2017 or 2018 for the mid-sized Model 3 is likely.
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I confess I didn't read that wall of text. However I do want to help.Here I am. Although my profession appears to be the most dumped on in the public sector right now, it’s a busy time of year for it and I apparently don’t have the same kind of time to visit a message board while working (or being retired) like the rest of you do or while at home chasing around my 3 year old.
What are these “tailgate wenches” you speak of? My days for possession of or affiliation with any such persons are long gone.
“The thread was started by someone who wanted to know about luxury performance sedans. While the Tesla is an interesting curiosity it's certainly not a best of breed performance sedan - the reliability issues have been significant.”
The title of the thread (What car to buy?) doesn’t mention it being solely about “luxury performance sedans.” The initial post also only says that maybe “a sedan” would be a nice complement to an Odyssey and the only real qualification made says “don't need a muscle car or 400 horses.” I don’t see how a Model S gets wiped out from the discussion because you decide later the whole thread is all about “best of breed performance sedans.” Have you driven a Model S? I have on several occasions and it’s incredibly low center of gravity because of the battery pack’s and engine’s placement makes its handling (and resulting low roll potential and high safety rating) very unique and in my opinion, worthy of being called a high performance sedan. But what do I know, I otherwise drive a Prius daily.
What is the long list of reliability issues that you speak of? I am only aware of software-related issues that usually were remedied rather quickly OTA and of course, the 5 fires that received disproportionately more attention from the media than the thousands of fires (explosions) that happen in ICE cars every year with a combustible liquid nearby. The gouging of the aluminum plate protecting the lithium ion batteries caused by high speed collisions of some of the cars with road debris like tow hitches while it was at its lowest height setting led to the plate’s very quick replacement with a titanium version (free of charge to all new and legacy owners) and the software increased the minimum height of the car while travelling at high speeds. In each case, the car warned the driver they should pull over and leave the car and 10-15 minutes passed before a real fire broke out. Motor Trend, Car & Driver and Consumer Reports certainly wouldn’t name a car with “significant reliability issues” “Car of the Year” (sometimes, more than once). You’ll have to enlighten me about these issues.
As an aside, a safer car than the Model S doesn’t exist as detailed here so since the OP’s wife already owns an Odyssey, unless no one else but the OP will ever ride in this new car, I’m thinking family safety will play at least some part in the purchase, too.
“I have no misconceptions about EVs. On the contrary, you seem to be able to do little more than parrot talking points. To the extent that EV purchases are subsidized - guess what? That's not "free money". It's tax revenue. Macroeconomics can be your friend.”
“I don't understand why Tesla isn't being sued for making the claim.
A $10k fuel savings over 5 years (which at today's fuel prices is right about 4,000 gallons or 81,000 miles at a very conservative 20 mpg, which is more than most people drive) doesn't LOWER the price of the car.”
Hey, thanks for the condescending tip. But I’m good – I remember well the basics of micro and macro from the great eco prof who taught them to us at the RU College of Engineering and I have had to make use of them quite often in my occupation and life. I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you never claimed outrage when marketers of other products and services have used very similar, very common “value prop” in their advertising. What’s especially ironic about your indignation is that in the case of Tesla, you have to actually visit their site to see the tax and gas savings get subtracted from the cost since Elon Musk refuses to use more traditional, external advertising means based on a personal belief it is a practice based on deception. If the price gets posted as such by a magazine or other media outlet with a story on the Model S, that’s on them. I also am going to guess that you never got on your soapbox in the past to protest the tax breaks both individual and business purchasers of SUVs got in some cases. Governments make laws, regulate and sometimes provide political or financial incentives to encourage certain social or economic behaviors. Take your beef up with the fed government on this one with their decision to motivate high end car shoppers (not just potential buyers of the Leaf and Volt) to buy a luxury sedan EV. If the purchase of a specific thing leads to a direct reduction in your taxes, I find it very reasonable for that thing’s seller to point that out and state its existence in relation to the competitive pricing of its product. Other people with a brain like yours that think it’s b.s. won’t do the suggested subtraction. If you think it’s deceptive and other people won’t see through it to consider the real price, they probably shouldn’t be shopping for a high performance sedan in the first place.
“Additionally, all EVs now use lithium ion batteries. Educate yourself on something called the "lithium cycle". Learn how lithium is one of the most rare of the rare earth elements, how it's not renewable and how 90% of all lithium deposits are found in countries which are unfriendly to our interests (China is the biggest producer) or have unstable governments (Chile). Learn also that the process of mining, extracting and refining lithium is one of the most environmentally horrific processes in the modern world and that entire ecosystems (again, Chile) have been completely destroyed by the process.”
OK, this equally condescending and “all over the place” lesson in science and natural resources really did elicit a chuckle. This completes my 24th year of teaching mostly honors or AP-level physics and chem at a well-respected high school in southern NJ. After writing the curriculum for an accelerated level planetary science elective for juniors and seniors in 2001, I have taught it since and naturally I have been required to know what I am talking about in this area.
“Lithium cycle???” That’s when I laughed. I sure hope you are referring to the “life cycle” of the element in batteries because by definition, a nonrenewable resource like a metal can’t have a natural cycle that restores it to an earlier state. It is NOT a rare earth metal (Google it) – it is an alkali metal and it comes in at #33 on the abundance list of the 78 elements found in the crust. Your logic suggests then we should also just stop mining/extracting/buying from enemies elements like lead, boron, tin, uranium, silver and gold (just to name a few) that are below it on the abundance list. Yes, like any active metal in a battery, the passage of time and the temperature extremes that occur within this specific type of battery lead to degradation of its ability to ionize and transport electrons internally. It appears though that lithium has potential to be recyclable but the facts that 1) 1st generation hybrids still have functioning batteries and 2) lithium is so inexpensive (around $3 or $4 a pound) has not led to any serious R&D efforts on the process. Lithium only accounts for about 3% of the cost of lithium-ion batteries despite being its namesake with cobalt and nickel being more expensive elements within them.
OK, when you raise environmental and political concerns related to lithium mining and commerce, let me make sure I’m clear on this – are your concerns for the damaged ecologies and political instabilities of Bolivia, Chile and China actually trying to sell us all on the lack of both and ecological virtues that accompany drilling, transporting and using………oil? OK, that time, I smirked.
Ask the folks in California how the 59 million dollar clean-up of last month’s spill alone is going and just take a look at how often (usually at least once a year) billions of gallons of oil are spilled/leaked potentially anywhere in the world as we transport it to serve as a “mobile ecosystem wrecking system” that makes a static stripped mine seem much more manageable. Unless you are proposing we start policing the world with our military for yet another reason, this time environmental, history has shown us that nations run by totalitarian governments will always go for the fast money at the expense of their environments and people with diplomacy and economic sanctions usually our only options. But cutting off our nose in spite of our face has never been the right choice if the mined/drilled commodity in question was vital to a crucial, maturing technology. Thank God you weren’t in a position of power in 1973 during the Arab-Israeli Conflict when the hatred from and instability in the Middle East had us twisting in the wind or we would have never become the number 1 oil-producing nation in the world that we are today.
If you want to express concerns about lithium being “nonrenewable” (despite such small amounts of it being needed in batteries), don’t forget that oil and its sisters coal and natural gas are not endless but “endful” (as shown in great detail in this blog that I strongly recommend). Even when taking into consideration how new reserves of each are often discovered over time with new technological tools, with the rapidly growing, car-buying middle class in China kicking into gear, here’s a conservative estimate of how much we have left of each:
If we instead consider how the consumption of coal will likely accelerate once oil and natural gas begin to dwindle, here’s a more pessimistic outlook:
The 2nd outlook includes my daughter’s lifetime and before I get too far away from addressing your environmental concerns about the use of lithium, I haven’t even addressed what fossil fuels turn into once used. I won’t make the mistake of being two specific with what I say here (as the issue I’m touching on turns threads into liberal vs. conservative pissing matches that moves them to the CE board) but what is depicted in these graphs just can’t be good:
You accused me of “parroting talking points” earlier. I must say in return that your lithium rant sure made me feel like I had just opened up an issue of Newsmax or sat down in front of Fox News, like you were straight from an oil corporation’s PR or marketing firm shouting “nothing to see here” about the tech that supports zero emissions EVs. I felt like I was hearing all over again about the economic and geopolitical dangers of buying and depending on Chinese solar panels as their proliferation began to threaten the utilities that were completely in bed long term with coal and nuclear power. In the end, the largest solar installer in the US, Solar City, is now about to start making its own panels in New York, with more domestic production on the horizon.
“Then, since you're such a fan of reading, study the Tesla S a bit more. The price on the 75D (the cheapest) is $75k. The lower prices quoted include the $7500 federal tax credit and "$10,000 in gas savings". For that you get 0-60 in 5.2 seconds. Yeah, that's not so great for that kind of money.
And here's a lesson in consumerism - any time a prospective seller quotes you a price that includes some putative, prospective savings, you should walk away.
To get the Model S that everyone really wants - the fast one with the little "hyperspace button" on the dashboard - $105,000. And there are options on top of that.
You're not making your money back with a Tesla. The money you would save by just buying a plain, old luxury performance sedan more than pays for the gas you use.”
Look – at 47, I’m no longer a young buck sowing my oats or trying to score chicks or “tailgate wenches” with a super fast accelerating car. 0-60 in 5.2 in the suburbs with a small child buckled up in the back most of the time is plenty for me and maybe the OP who’s wife has a minivan since again, the thread wasn’t titled “What car to buy that goes 0-60 faster than 5 seconds?” If you want to only dwell on performance numbers though, I am all about the 50 to 70 in 2 seconds with instantaneous torque and acceleration most ICE cars for 75k can’t deliver while on the highway, the only time most of us ever need to accelerate fast for a practical, non-“bad boy” reason.
I keep looking at the additional options that you say are necessary for inclusion if I want a decent “hyperspace”-capable car that jack its cost up to 105k and I’m just not seeing it. A sun roof would be nice along with their premium sound system but I don’t need them just like I don’t need their more potent batteries and engines to go from rest to 60 mph any faster. At a net of 67,500, IMHO I get an awesome, incredibly safe car which I never claimed would end up “making my money back” – I simply pointed out that the tax credit and potential gas savings for some like me make its lower out of pocket costs over 5-10 years worth considering (I’ll be more specific below as to why I would specifically save a LOT because of my house’s solar system).
“Look, I'm not anti-Tesla. Like I said - cool car. I just think it's ironic that I'm getting scolded by Tesla guy for being a knowledge-deficient snob while he's believing that "savings" actually lowers the price of the car.”
If you truly think the car is a curiosity and cool, then we are in the same boat, but I’ll take that curiosity a step further. I find it ridiculous and absurd that we more or less depend on the same transportation technology that was available 200 years ago. Case in point, here is a steam engine’s source of propulsion in 1815:
…and here is your 4 cylinder engine of today:
Sure, we now inject a highly combustible fuel into the cylinders at just the right moment in just the right amounts with the help of onboard computers but it is still an engine that runs on the same basic principles that those with the burning of coal to create steam did. In the end, only about 25% of the energy in gasoline pushes a car forward (some estimates say less) with the rest lost as useless heat despite the liberal use of oil in engines to keep contact surfaces sliding over each other.
An AC induction motor is far simpler and much more efficient:
…with an axle through the heart of a bar magnet that is strongly attracted (or repelled) and spun by magnetic forces that are created by AC at points A, B and C for immediate acceleration on demand and an efficiency of 85% to 90%. It is a perfect demonstration of the axiom “keep it simple, stupid” (K.I.S.S.) in automotive engineering that gives you a car that basically should only require the replacement of its tires and cabin filters for lifetime maintenance (which is so far true for the 2 Model S owners I know with cars from the first production year in 2011). Call me a foolish early adopter that pays more than he should but I want to not only own but also support the growth of this kind of smarter technology that leaves a much smaller environmental mark on my daughter’s future world (with tiny use of lithium considered) than any other luxury sedan in existence.
As for how owning a Model S would indeed result in savings for me personally, here is a breakdown of how my switch to solar panels for electricity from using my utility, the thieves at Atlantic City Electric, has gone so far:
I’ll briefly try to explain what this shows – that since I pushed for a system from Solar City that would produce 95% of our kWh consumption from the 12 months before its design (the maximum allowable by law), we are not only saving about $100 month over what we would have paid ACE in 2014-15 anyway but I am intentionally “banking” a huge amount of kWhs that I can instead use to charge an EV in the future. Yes, I am losing money right now (the excess 1242 so far has a retail value of $174) by not actually using the excess kWhs my system creates (since after a year, only its wholesale value gets refunded to me which is far less than the retail price I had to buy it with) but since I still stand to save about $1000-$1200 each year over what I used to pay, I can handle that loss until I buy an EV. So right now, I appear to be headed for the “banking” of about 2000 kWhs in the first year of my system’s operation. Even during this June which has been hot (in need of running the AC often) but often overcast (not a ton of kWhs produced by our panels), my meter still reads 100 kWhs below where it started the month.
The bottom line is this: 2000 kWhs ($280 worth of electrical power from SC) is exactly the energy I need to cover my commuting to work with a Models S for a calendar year. I am POSITIVE gasoline for the same year commuting with a luxury sedan using premium or regular gasoline would cost much more. So even though we are paying $100 less than we used to for the power we now get from our panels, it already includes what I need to go to work every day for a year with a Tesla EV. Add to that the fact that for the regular trips we take to Virginia to visit family, we will pass 2 Tesla supercharging stations that will be completely FREE OF CHARGE fill up spots for my car’s battery for the life of the car (with my wife and child preferring to make frequent stops on long trips anyway), getting a Tesla is a no brainer for me with all costs considered.
“No. He said "My contribution to this discussion was about the Tesla Model S that I plan to buy next." I call bullshit.”
Here’s where you might be right. With the impending dissolution of my pension a real possibility with me 10+ years out from retiring, it would be irresponsible for me to purchase a Model S while still wanting to play a part in funding at least some part of my 3 year old daughter’s future education. It now looks like a wait until 2017 or 2018 for the mid-sized Model 3 is likely.
So my advice is, have more kids. Yes, that's right. More kids. Lots of them. That way, you can sell some or all the daughters to Saudi Princes and you'll have (a) plenty of money to send the rest to college and (b) plenty of money to retire on, and (c) you can get all the Teslas you wish.
Simple answers to tough questions. It's what I live for. :sunglasses:
Damn, I thought I put enough graphs and pictures in it to lead folks to actually read it. Oh well.
Thanks for the tip, but our reproductive years came to an end with our daughter's birth. I'll see if Google can lead me to a way to contact the Saudi royalty to pursue your idea though with her.
I missed the golden opportunity with my blond haired, blue eyed daughter - she would've fetched at least 5 million. Now she's much too old (21) and, other than a potential wedding, no longer particularly expensive. Also, I stupidly allowed myself to form those persnickety emotional attachments and all. Not to mention her brothers would beat me up if I tried to sell her now.
There's a moral to this story somewhere, but I'm dammed if I can find it. [laughing]
Hmmmm. You have a point there. I think I might be too attached to my little maniac too to sell her.
Really? Nothing? I figured my detailed reply to RU4Real would lead the fans of internal combustion engines and tree hugger-hating fans of Big Oil to come out swinging.
If anyone's reading this, I'll meet you back here in 15 years when EVs have gone from a curiosity to a significant market share while we are figuring out what we can do about our disappearing coasts and species.
I'm not a big car guy. Have a Honda CRV that I bought in 2004, paid off in 2008 and is still running great at 200,000 miles. I do however, want our next car to be an upgrade into the luxury class. My main concern however is safety over performance. In terms of things like maneuverability, rear and back warning systems and stopping automatically and things like that, which is the best way to go?
Right on cue, an article from yesterday - wind and solar to overtake coal and oil in 15 short years due to investment, NOT tax breaks and subsidies as the right insists, with EVs no doubt to rise along with renewables:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/three-ways-the-world-s-power-mix-is-about-to-change/
In a recent article, the highly regarded and long-respected industry magazine Car & Driver gave pretty high praise to the recently upgraded Tesla Model S 70D — even going so far as to referring to it as “a driving experience to rival the best.” In fact, it named the Model S in this article about the 70D the “car of the century.”
Nice praise, even though the article has some trumped up nonsense about "charge anxiety" in it, as if 200 miles of range from a full overnight isn't enough for 99.99% of daily driving.
http://cleantechnica.com/2015/06/30...esla-model-s-car-driver-writes-in-70d-review/
Actual article:
http://m.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model-s-70d-instrumented-test-review
Nice praise, even though the article has some trumped up nonsense about "charge anxiety" in it, as if 200 miles of range from a full overnight isn't enough for 99.99% of daily driving.
http://cleantechnica.com/2015/06/30...esla-model-s-car-driver-writes-in-70d-review/
Actual article:
http://m.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model-s-70d-instrumented-test-review
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I have the Lexus GS 350 F Sport (competes with BMW 5 Series, MB E Class and Audi A6) and it is has been much better than I expected. It's fast and has more standard features than any of the others. Also Lexus has not had great sales the past couple of years and is offering aggressive lease programs that are better than the competitors.
Looked at the e350. Didnt like the interior styling and thought the GPS was poor.
Tesla Model S update:
There now is a rear wheel drive base model of the Model S available for a $70k real price (tax rebate and potential gas savings not included) that has so many standard features that were options on earlier versions of the car that it's a damned nice base model.
For the performance crowd, the top Model S now has a Ludicrous Mode that will allow you to go 0-60 in 2.8 seconds, making it the fastest luxury sedan in the world. (There will indeed be a Maximum Plaid Mode, "Spaceballs" fans, for the next generation of Tesla's 2-seater, the Roadster, that will come out in 4 years. I'm not joking.)
Specs for the curious straight from Musk here:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/three-dog-day
There now is a rear wheel drive base model of the Model S available for a $70k real price (tax rebate and potential gas savings not included) that has so many standard features that were options on earlier versions of the car that it's a damned nice base model.
For the performance crowd, the top Model S now has a Ludicrous Mode that will allow you to go 0-60 in 2.8 seconds, making it the fastest luxury sedan in the world. (There will indeed be a Maximum Plaid Mode, "Spaceballs" fans, for the next generation of Tesla's 2-seater, the Roadster, that will come out in 4 years. I'm not joking.)
Specs for the curious straight from Musk here:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/three-dog-day
It's still only a thing if you're really serious about electric cars.
$70k plus $1200 "regulatory and doc fee" (aka "bullshit gouging") minus the $7500 tax incentive makes it a $63,700 car.
For that money it does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, which is more or less average for luxury performance sedans, and doesn't have all-wheel drive, which is decidedly NOT average for luxury performance sedans.
For the same money I'll take an A6, which has the same performance numbers, comes with all-wheel drive and can go further than 200 miles before you have to stop for however long it takes the batteries to charge.
Incidentally, the 200 miles is at 70 mph. This car would be useless for long highway trips, since its range at 80+ mph wouldn't be enough to get you across most states.
The Tesla is a nice "v1.0" for its genre, but as a mainstream alternative it's just not there yet.
Although I'm a little disappointed you didn't address some of my specific points about lithium and the AC induction motor that I believe will be the automotive norm in 15-20 years from my previous super post on page 2 here, it's good to hear from you, RU4Real.
As far as considering the Model S just an "early adopter" car right now, I agree with you. It's range will keep it as such until it increases and the related cost of the lithium ion batteries comes down to make its price comparable to those of luxury sedans with similar 0-60 times, AWD instead of RWD and identical or better torque numbers.
With that said, it's not "Car and Driver's" nominee for "The Car of the Century" for no reason. You never did tell me all about the issues and problems you cited that Teslas have had and I still haven't found anything significant in the media anywhere. It's a game-changer that, as its price drops, will show in the end that 90% efficiency from each electron pushing a car forward beats 25% efficiency from each molecule of hydrocarbons in gasoline every time. And this is all in a world where growing numbers of people (agree with them or not) are concerned about what coal, oil and natural gas may (or may not) be doing to our climate, something that is already making cars like the Model S attractive in ways an ICE car never will. (This just in - 2015 is already likely to be a warmer year globally than 2014 which was the warmest on record since modern civilization began burning fossil fuels in earnest:
http://gizmodo.com/remember-when-2014-was-the-hottest-year-on-record-now-1719139622)
I'll see you here in 10 or 15 years and we can compare notes on the sales and performance numbers for luxury sedan EVs then. Cheers.
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I like the idea of the Tesla but unless you have a garage to install a charger or are close to one of the super chargers it makes no sense. It may take a while longer for the infrastructure to be built up correctly. Then what happens during a blackout or prolonged power outage from a storm? With a lot of Americans in a situation where they live in a place where they can't install a charger (high rises, condos, garden apts, rentals, etc...) and park at work in lots without electric chargers it makes it tougher to own one of these.
I think the near term future will be better hybrids. Look at the Infiniti Q70 hybrid and the Lexus GS Hybrid. Both have over 300 HP and Torque with the Infiniti surpassing 400 torque. Both average around 30 mpg.
With improved r and d over the next 10 years I think these vehicles will be looking at 40 mpg with similar or better engine performance.
I also think that gas stations will become energy distribution stations that sell gas, hydrogen gas, electric, and other techs. You may even see the covered areas by the pumps having solar panels on top. You may even see charging stations at coffee places, supermarkets, and other retail places.
I think the near term future will be better hybrids. Look at the Infiniti Q70 hybrid and the Lexus GS Hybrid. Both have over 300 HP and Torque with the Infiniti surpassing 400 torque. Both average around 30 mpg.
With improved r and d over the next 10 years I think these vehicles will be looking at 40 mpg with similar or better engine performance.
I also think that gas stations will become energy distribution stations that sell gas, hydrogen gas, electric, and other techs. You may even see the covered areas by the pumps having solar panels on top. You may even see charging stations at coffee places, supermarkets, and other retail places.
All of that is true.
The biggest problem with gas:
The biggest problem I have with gas is not global warming (yes it is important to slow it down but we are all screwed no matter what, nothing can't stop global warming) but rather that every time you fill up that gas tanks you are funding terrorism. The idea is to reduce our need for oil to the point where domestic oil is enough for our needs without having to pretend to be buddy buddy to horrible nations which we would never have deals with if they didn't have oil supplies. That is the #1 reason to support Tesla, BMW, Ford and whoever else is making cars that don't rely on gas alone.
charging during blackouts:
Also, the charging station at home and the superchargers all have solar backups in case that happens.
You do know that we get less than 19% of our crude oil from OPEC nations, right?
