Pikiell on 2017-18 Roster: "We plan on adding another really good player"

[Greene Rice FIG]

Top PG next year (not in order)
Edwards pur
Trimble md
Mason min
McIntosh NW
Bohannon iowa
Newkirk ind
Lyle OSU
Carr PSU
Sanders RU

Not even counting freshman next year

6 of those PG are heads and shoulders above what we have...

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Higgins

I was wrong about Walton. He has been pretty solid all year. Yes he has it in another gear now, but the lower gear is pretty good.

16-17 I can't name a better PG. I might have 5-6 in the same ballpark or a small notch below. Offensively he has been exactly what I want my point guard to be......and the opposite of what our PG is. Polar opposite

 

[RBNY87]

Some folks are grossly overestimating Baker and his ability to meaningfully contribute at this level as a freshman. He plays against awful contribution and he is fine but certainly does not dominate even at that level. He has some skills, but it will be an enormous adjustment for him to the Big Ten. He is also not a point guard at this point and the chance of him developing into a point guard as a freshman is not possible.

He is an individual that may develop into a nice complementary player in time. He is not at the level to contribute as a freshman.

It is an interesting point. Maybe the reason we picked up the grad transfer was to allow Baker to redshirt.

 

[MadRU]

It is an interesting point. Maybe the reason we picked up the grad transfer was to allow Baker to redshirt.

We picked up a grad transfer? Who is that?

Don't see Baker as a redshirt.

 

[Scangg]

It is an interesting point. Maybe the reason we picked up the grad transfer was to allow Baker to redshirt.

We picked up a grad transfer? Who is that?

Don't see Baker as a redshirt.

PG souf mensah

 

[knights1212]

Souf is a JUCO transfer not a grad transfer. He has 2 years to play not one.

 

[RUJMM78]

I do not look at the wins and losses, I look at how competitive the games were, and if they could be won next year.

Williams did everything else, and will be here next year. I am not predicting the team to be in the top half of the year next year. What Williams does is very hard to replicate.

Recruits surely look at wins and losses because top tier players have either not been coming to Rutgers or when they did come ,transferred after 2 years.

 

[bac2therac]

Bac

Totally understand your perspective

To me....there is not that much difference between the 3-15/15-18 and 9-9/21-12 on the floor

On the other hand ....in my opinion ...it is twice the jump to go from 9-9/21-12 to 12-6/25-8....and maybe three times the jump

Lot different from being number 50 and 20

respectfully disagree.....I still think its a huge jump....just look around the league and how long it has taken Northwestern and Penn State to move up. Northwestern last year I believe was 8-10/20-11 a small jump from the year before and they took another jump. Indiana struggled in the league. PSU was 6-12/7-11 this year.....3 to 9 is a huge jump in this league, you do not see it. Minnesota did it this year, one of the largest jumps in NCAA history, but that was a talented team last year that lost close games and Pitino underacheived, they added a top 25 class and moved on. RU is adding the 14th rated class in the Big 10.

3 to 9 is just wildly optimistic for a move in one season for a team that still cannot shoot and has no returning center of quality not to mention has very limited 3 point shooting capability

 

[bac2therac]

What about the idea on offense is right? I'm curious what do you like about the offense we run now vs. say last years?

one its smarter even if they there are still screw ups but last year was more up and chuck...with no rebounding. Corey is a better point then he was last year easily. Pike knows that they do not shoot well, the idea to have Williams crash the board for a rebound is brilliant, The emphasis on rebounding is part of the offensive strategy and has given RU more second chance opportunities to convert. Never happened last year. Do not get fooled by a couple back door cuts that Eddie last year, they look pretty but don't accomplish much

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

. Corey is a better point then he was last year easily.

overall YES, but slightly
defensively ABSOLUTELY
offensively NO

 

[bac2therac]

I'd feel better if I had confidence in a point guard. 9-9 teams have a steady hand at QB or in Michigan State case enormous talent elsewhere

I guess I should keep telling myself this was the exact blueprint of what a successful season for our team, after '15-16 would look like. I even sort of predicted it. I just have a tough time envisioning us getting over the hump.

the issue is what does RU have coming in to make it better and get over the hump and then comparing that to what other schools are bringing in. RU does not exist in a vacuum and for RU to move up they need to be getting better than those around them. Nebby really tanked at the end of the year but they still had some big wins this year, Huskerfan said they have top class coming in for this year. PSU got better with the young freshmen. They are looking to get over the hump as well. Illinois loses some players, picks up a new coach and gets the top class in the league and 11th in the country. Iowa won 10 league games with a freshmen dominated squad, they will be looking to make their NCAA push as they were a win or two away this year. Indiana loses Crean but has everyone back from a team that was wildly inconsistent and probably are adding a player of merit. Northwestern, Michigan, Michigan State all figure to be as good or better in league. play. Wisconsin loses alot but do not count out their system to plug players in. They may fall to 2nd tier but are you willing to say RU passes them. Ohio State has been sputtering but are young. Can RU move ahead of Illinois, Ohio State, and Nebraska next year? Maybe...but is that good enough to avoid the play in game and no post season? Guess where RU will be picked by the media and coaches poll next year.

 

[higgins3]

Recruits surely look at wins and losses because top tier players have either not been coming to Rutgers or when they did come ,transferred after 2 years.

They also play the game and can tell a 25 pt blowout and the future of the program versus 6-8 point games. This past year is an easier sell

Pikiell explains all that.

 

[higgins3]

overall YES, but slightly
defensively ABSOLUTELY
offensively NO

Fig, how can you not separate the two years?Vastly different years, and not all had to do with the ability of Sanders.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Using kenpom Tier A and B games
'16-'17 19 games played 54.5% FT 37.8% 2 point FG 33.3% 3 point FG 54 assts 53 tos
'15-'16 15 games played 77.8% FT 45.9% 2 point FG 32.9% 3 point FG 60 assts 49 tos

 

[higgins3]

Using kenpom Tier A and B games
'16-'17 19 games played 54.5% FT 37.8% 2 point FG 33.3% 3 point FG 54 assts 53 tos
'15-'16 15 games played 77.8% FT 45.9% 2 point FG 32.9% 3 point FG 60 assts 49 tos

You could be the ceo of kenpom, haha. So turnovers nearly the same, 3 pt field goals nearly the same, assist nearly the same.

He was given the keys, and he played against backups at least 30% of the time. Obviously the numbers would be widely different.

This conversation for me is done after it being played out. Look at the two years, and it is very easy to see why offensively Corey Sanders would have some, but not anywhere different offensive numbers.

He did not drop this year offensively. He was playing the best,and it showed. Last year he was playing the backups, and it showed. Simple.

 

[RUChoppin]

3 to 9 is a huge jump in this league, you do not see it. Minnesota did it this year, one of the largest jumps in NCAA history, but that was a talented team last year that lost close games and Pitino underacheived, they added a top 25 class and moved on. RU is adding the 14th rated class in the Big 10.

Agree that Minnesota isn't really a comparable example. Their conference wins went from 8->6->2->11... and that one down year saw them go 1-9 in conference in games decided by single digits, and 1-4 in games decided by 5 or less. Just in a "reversion to the mean" for Minnesota, they'd have been looking at 6ish wins this season... but they built well above that.

We've gone 2->1->3->?... and we're coming off a year where we went 4-7 in conference games decided by single digits, and 3-2 in games decided by 5 or less. By contrast, we have to avoid any reversion back to our prior level of play while continuing to build.

 

[higgins3]

Backups 60% of the time.

Just take a look at the majority of those losses. I would estimate the losses difference in terms of average to be at least 16 ppg in conference, and 12 ppg OOC.

You know what happens.Theres your dip in offensive numbers.

 

[RUChoppin]

You could be the ceo of kenpom, haha. So turnovers nearly the same, 3 pt field goals nearly the same, assist nearly the same.

He was given the keys, and he played against backups at least 30% of the time. Obviously the numbers would be widely different.

This conversation for me is done after it being played out. Look at the two years, and it is very easy to see why offensively Corey Sanders would have some, but not anywhere different offensive numbers.

He did not drop this year offensively. He was playing the best,and it showed. Last year he was playing the backups, and it showed. Simple.

It was his A/T ratio that fell from 1.22 to 1.02 from last year to this year, despite having more options around him to pass the ball to for assists. He somehow lost his FT touch - which doesn't have anything to do with playing against backups. He also lost his 3P shot for most of the year (starting 3-22 against even weaker competition than last year, even on wide open attempts... which he didn't really turn around much by the end of the season... finishing 8-33).

Offensively, Corey took a bit of a step back... but I think this partly because he was exerting a lot more energy on defense, which he definitely improved over last season.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

You could be the ceo of kenpom, haha. So turnovers nearly the same, 3 pt field goals nearly the same, assist nearly the same.

He was given the keys, and he played against backups at least 30% of the time. Obviously the numbers would be widely different.

This conversation for me is done after it being played out. Look at the two years, and it is very easy to see why offensively Corey Sanders would have some, but not anywhere different offensive numbers.

He did not drop this year offensively. He was playing the best,and it showed. Last year he was playing the backups, and it showed. Simple.

19 games vs 15 games.

If you want to use the playing against backups. i'll give you he got a chance to play with Nigel, Freeman and CJ this year.

The thing I don't see discussed is his FTs. Shouldn't they be part of the discussion. Did his FT shooting directly keep us from winning games?

Similar to when they cover up bubble NCAA teams and show you their records, RPIs etc. Can you imagine analyzing player X who is a point guard that has a 1 to 1 TO ratio shoots 35% from the field and 54% from the line. What would you say?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Despite what people say I am a realist and not negative. Other than injuries, my greatest fear for next year is that in Year 2 of the Pikiell regime we take a step down in intensity as players get "more comfortable" with coach. The newness of the coach goes away.

Hopefully
A. it doesn't happen
B. we are better strength and conditioning
C. we have more depth so PT can be a stick and/or carrot

 

[higgins3]

It was his A/T ratio that fell from 1.22 to 1.02 from last year to this year, despite having more options around him to pass the ball to for assists. He somehow lost his FT touch - which doesn't have anything to do with playing against backups. He also lost his 3P shot for most of the year (starting 3-22 against even weaker competition than last year, even on wide open attempts... which he didn't really turn around much by the end of the season... finishing 8-33).

Offensively, Corey took a bit of a step back... but I think this partly because he was exerting a lot more energy on defense, which he definitely improved over last season.

I was going off of figs numbers purely.

3 pt was very similar.

 

[higgins3]

Absolutely, like Choppin said, free throws should be part of it.

They could have helped win games, absolutely.

I would say he would never make the NBA as a backup, but that is only if he was a senior. He still has time to improve.

As fans, the majority of us face the same issue the team faces, they got used to losing. I hardly see posters saying Rutgers can improve for next year. They just mention how every other team will improve.

That is what I find very weird.

 

[RUChoppin]

Absolutely, like Choppin said, free throws should be part of it.

They could have helped win games, absolutely.

I would say he would never make the NBA as a backup, but that is only if he was a senior. He still has time to improve.

As fans, the majority of us face the same issue the team faces, they got used to losing. I hardly see posters saying Rutgers can improve for next year. They just mention how every other team will improve.

That is what I find very weird.

It's not about whether we will improve or not... personally, I feel we will. The question is whether we'll improve significantly relative to the other teams in our conference-standings-neighborhood.

It's like two kids in the same class measuring their heights... one might be two inches shorter than the other at the start of the year, but may grow 3 inches to his friend's 1 inch by the end of the year. That'd put them equal, even though the first kid grew 3x the number of inches as his friend. We need to improve significantly (not incrementally) in order to draw equal to those finishing 9-13th in our conference. Usually significant change in basketball comes with player additions more so than player growth - but that's not always the case.

Looking at the bottom of the conference, and comparing graduating players vs. incoming classes, and our results this year:
3-15 Rutgers - loses starting center (#2 rebounder), adds #13 class in conference (last year's #11 class become sophomores)
6-12 Nebraska - loses lead scorer guard, adds #12 class (last year #9)... home win by 1
6-12 PA State - loses no one, adds #14 class (last year #4)... home loss by 13, away win by 2.
7-11 Indiana - loses coach but no players, adds #4 class (last year #3)... lost by 19 on road
7-11 Ohio State - loses starting forward (#2 scorer), adds #10 class (last year #8)... lost by 6 on road, won by 9 in tournament

On paper only, it doesn't look like we're going to make any massive jump that will push us ahead of these teams in the conference standings. We could slip ahead of Nebraska to 13th... and maybe nab 12th or 11th... but I'm not expecting us to jump up to 8+ wins in conference next year without another 1-2 strong roster additions.

Edit: To fix error.

 

[bac2therac]

RU can improve but when you have limited talent how much can you expect. This team cannot shoot, its not learning overnight, it does not 3 point threats, that will not change. Thiam can get better and Eugene has well those are the two with the most upside. We know what we are getting from Nigel, Mike and De Sean and their limitations. Another year will help with decision making but you can only squeeze so much water out of a stone. Need more talent....a chance for improvement but you do not go from 4-18 vs top 150 to 12-10 vs top 150 just by getting a year older when you talent is limited and again the more optimistic tend to think RU exists in a vacuum

 

[rubaseball78]

Using kenpom Tier A and B games
'16-'17 19 games played 54.5% FT 37.8% 2 point FG 33.3% 3 point FG 54 assts 53 tos
'15-'16 15 games played 77.8% FT 45.9% 2 point FG 32.9% 3 point FG 60 assts 49 tos

So we shouldn't have fired Jordan then?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

So we shouldn't have fired Jordan then?

those are offensive stats.

I am against firing coaches until you are certain the guy cant get it done. You basically throw away time doing it. I hate it. The answer to your question....YES!!!

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

PSU is going to be VERY GOOD if Chambers can coach/motivate.

Lowering expectations is very healthy. I am trying to make the case that 4 conference wins with similar margin of defeats could be seen as decent progress.

 

[higgins3]

RU can improve but when you have limited talent how much can you expect. This team cannot shoot, its not learning overnight, it does not 3 point threats, that will not change. Thiam can get better and Eugene has well those are the two with the most upside. We know what we are getting from Nigel, Mike and De Sean and their limitations. Another year will help with decision making but you can only squeeze so much water out of a stone. Need more talent....a chance for improvement but you do not go from 4-18 vs top 150 to 12-10 vs top 150 just by getting a year older when you talent is limited and again the more optimistic tend to think RU exists in a vacuum

How about Sanders?Room for improvement?

Nigel can't become a more consistent 3 pt threat?How about the last five games?

Desean can't make opposing fours guard him at the 3 pt line?

The team needs more talent. Absolutely. Will they fight next year and win more if a rebounder comes in? Watch it happen.

 

[RutgHoops]

overall YES, but slightly
defensively ABSOLUTELY
offensively NO

I think Corey was leaps and bounds better defensively and about the same offensively. To me, Corey took a big step forward in 2016-17.

I know folks have "poo poo'd" Souf a bit, but there is NO WAY Pikiell was putting Dadika in for Corey unless he had to. Corey played 32 HARD minutes/per in B1G play. Next year we will have five scholarship guards on the roster.

Everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) thought Freeman was going to be overmatched once B1G play started. And yet the kid averaged 10.6/6.7 in league. And (in my opinion) one of the big reasons why was Coach P made sure he didn't play more than 27 or 28 minutes per. When you can go HARD during your time on the floor you tend to look better. Corey was forced to not only play 32 minutes a night, but (as GRFIG pointed out with his list above) often had to guard the best player on the opposing team, run our offense and be our leading scorer.

With five guards next year I think all our guards improve.

 

[rubaseball78]

those are offensive stats.

I am against firing coaches until you are certain the guy cant get it done. You basically throw away time doing it. I hate it. The answer to your question....YES!!!

Yes, we should not have fired Jordan? Really?

 

[RUChoppin]

RU can improve but when you have limited talent how much can you expect. This team cannot shoot, its not learning overnight, it does not 3 point threats, that will not change. Thiam can get better and Eugene has well those are the two with the most upside. We know what we are getting from Nigel, Mike and De Sean and their limitations. Another year will help with decision making but you can only squeeze so much water out of a stone. Need more talent....a chance for improvement but you do not go from 4-18 vs top 150 to 12-10 vs top 150 just by getting a year older when you talent is limited and again the more optimistic tend to think RU exists in a vacuum

I'd even say that we've already improved throughout the course of the season, which will position us much better going into next year.
- We're starting to understand what it takes to close out games (single digit games... 1-3 first half of conf play, 3-4 second half)
- Both offense and defense improved throughout the season (first half of conf play (1-9), off: 58.0, def: 71.3; second half (3-7), off: 62.9, def: 69.9)
- Sanders is getting much more comfortable in the role Pikiell wants him to play
- Thiam started to get up to game speed

Lots of things to work on in the off season, to be sure - but I think there is room for improvement.
- Decision making on offense is the biggest, and comfort in taking shots when they are there without hesitation
- FT shooting
- Overall S&C (especially by Thiam and Omoruyi)
- Freeman work on patience, and passing the ball out of the post
- Johnson work on not leaving his feet without knowing where the ball is going to go
- Sanders work on left hand

All of those will see incremental improvement across the team.

On the flip side, we will likely have a tougher OOC slate and we'll be without Gettys' steadying presence at center.

Really waiting to see what the final roster will look like, though... who will transfer, and who will come in.

 

[BillyC80]

Choppin, we beat Penn State in one of those games and also beat Illinois.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

overall YES, but slightly
defensively ABSOLUTELY
offensively NO

If I were Corey Sanders, I would do two things over the summer.

1. Obviously, work on the outside shot.

2. Work on driving the ball into the lane and then.....pull up and shoot a short-range shot.

Do both of those 500 times a day....250 each....lol

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

If I were Corey Sanders, I would do two things over the summer.

1. Obviously, work on the outside shot.

2. Work on driving the ball into the lane and then.....pull up and shoot a short-range shot.

Do both of those 500 times a day....250 each....lol

I think he has to learn how to shoot 1st. No doubt a short range shot AND the ability to distribute when in the paint are essential.

This stuff is not unique to Corey. How many guys have we seen the last week in foul trouble still getting fouls from offensive charges. 6'9'' guys are planted 5 feet from the basket just waiting to get run over and defenseless to the 8 foot shot.

You forgot #3.......250 foul shots.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Yes, we should not have fired Jordan? Really?

Ooops got your question backwards, my answer is NOOOOOO!

 

[YoucancallmeRay]

Does anyone know whether any of the guys on the team played summer league ball last summer and whether they have plans to play this summer? If so, where is the league this summer and any other details would be appreciated. In addition to working on fundamentals, all of the players need to be playing summer league ball, hopefully against high level competition. P.S. 250 shots should just be for the morning session, lol.

 

[bac2therac]

I'd even say that we've already improved throughout the course of the season, which will position us much better going into next year.
- We're starting to understand what it takes to close out games (single digit games... 1-3 first half of conf play, 3-4 second half)
- Both offense and defense improved throughout the season (first half of conf play (1-9), off: 58.0, def: 71.3; second half (3-7), off: 62.9, def: 69.9)
- Sanders is getting much more comfortable in the role Pikiell wants him to play
- Thiam started to get up to game speed

Lots of things to work on in the off season, to be sure - but I think there is room for improvement.
- Decision making on offense is the biggest, and comfort in taking shots when they are there without hesitation
- FT shooting
- Overall S&C (especially by Thiam and Omoruyi)
- Freeman work on patience, and passing the ball out of the post
- Johnson work on not leaving his feet without knowing where the ball is going to go
- Sanders work on left hand

All of those will see incremental improvement across the team.

On the flip side, we will likely have a tougher OOC slate and we'll be without Gettys' steadying presence at center.

Really waiting to see what the final roster will look like, though... who will transfer, and who will come in.

agree....the team took the steps to learn how to win, it improved over the course of the season in those situations. Are they there quite yet...well all three conference wins were last possession wins, they were not games that RU dominated and won by double digits, RU eeked out the wins....am I certainly not taking away from it, the point is to win and thats all...however looking at the process there still needs to be more improvement because trying to eek out one point wins on last possessions is a scary proposition in this league. Against OSU, RU closed things out...was it 8 points they won by? That kind of play is something to rally around, that kind of game is going to be the prototype for trying to win games next year. Thats why I feel so strongly its still a big leap from 3 to 9. Coming into the year many said well the team was hurt last year so they should have had 3 conference wins so this year they will win 6 or more, it doesnt work that way. Have to go step by step, this thing isnt going to come quick, it never does at major programs....look at Cronin, Collins, Willard for examples

 

[RUChoppin]

Choppin, we beat Penn State in one of those games and also beat Illinois.

Correcting the PA State point above. As for Illinois, I was only looking at the bottom five teams in the conference standings.

 

[RUChoppin]

agree....the team took the steps to learn how to win, it improved over the course of the season in those situations. Are they there quite yet...well all three conference wins were last possession wins, they were not games that RU dominated and won by double digits, RU eeked out the wins....am I certainly not taking away from it, the point is to win and thats all...however looking at the process there still needs to be more improvement because trying to eek out one point wins on last possessions is a scary proposition in this league. Against OSU, RU closed things out...was it 8 points they won by? That kind of play is something to rally around, that kind of game is going to be the prototype for trying to win games next year. Thats why I feel so strongly its still a big leap from 3 to 9. Coming into the year many said well the team was hurt last year so they should have had 3 conference wins so this year they will win 6 or more, it doesnt work that way. Have to go step by step, this thing isnt going to come quick, it never does at major programs....look at Cronin, Collins, Willard for examples

As far as the single digit wins... when games are that close, coming down to one or two plays late, one would hope to win about half. In conference play, we won 4 and lost 7. With a more seasoned team with more experience in those situations, maybe we get 1-2 more wins.

Several times this year we were in good shape with 2-3 minutes left, only to walk away with the lose because our guys couldn't close. Just an incremental improvement there relative to our opponents could see a couple more wins.

I agree that a big leap (like 3-15 to 9-9) is highly unlikely... but I could see us in the 5-6 win range for conference play next year, hovering in the 11-13th range in the conference standings. Unless we see some big roster moves.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

I think he has to learn how to shoot 1st. No doubt a short range shot AND the ability to distribute when in the paint are essential.

This stuff is not unique to Corey. How many guys have we seen the last week in foul trouble still getting fouls from offensive charges. 6'9'' guys are planted 5 feet from the basket just waiting to get run over and defenseless to the 8 foot shot.

You forgot #3.......250 foul shots.

I Would love to see more this this as well. Better form on Jumpshots.