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The Back-Up Point Guard Problem/Shaq Carter

RUSCFORMERLYRULOU

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Nov 12, 2017
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For all those saying NCAA's - this is one reason why this is not gonna happen this year. It's obvious Caleb McConnell is not ready for this role yet, and there's no way Geo can play 40 minutes every game. Unless he is ready or someone else (Montez Mathis?) handles a few minutes at the point, there is no way we can dance. I wish Caleb had gotten meaningful minutes in some of the other games . . .
On another note, it seems obvious that Shaq Carter is not seeing time this year. Disappointing. Again, for those who will say "he will see action in B10 games-" if that was the case, he should have gotten meaningful minutes against some of our lesser opponents to gain experience.
In short, we are eight deep - which compared to the depth we have had in previous years, might be okay. But NCAA teams are usually ten deep. Next year, we could be nine deep.
 
Duke is currently ahead of Shaq Carter. The writing was on the wall about Shaq Carter last year, but we all didn't want to read it.

Backup PG not an issue next year. Probably going to have to resign to the fact that Baker will play 38 MPG and he will hit a major wall at the end of the year. Pikiell tried early in the 2nd half and it just didn't work. I have a small issue with the other 4 he put alongside Caleb.
 
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A grad transfer PG would have been ideal this season

If Downes was a few inches taller he could spell Geo for a few minutes.

Play Downes four minutes a game. He can fill the spot. This is most critical on stretches with many games. Baker gets a break at halftime.

Baker should be okay playing 36 minutes with time in between games. What is critical is that he stays hydrated, and is eating well (lean proteins, good fats, and fruits/vegetables) during this time period.
 
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Guys...Baker will be FINE. We're talking about a 19 or 20 year old playing up to 120 minutes of basketball/week!! Worst case, rest him during practice, let him watch/listen/coach the other guys.

In the meantime, keep developing Caleb and hope he gets the point where he can run the point 5 min/game.

Luckily, we have a big time coach in Pike who understands PGs, how to rest players and game usage of TOs to extend rest times.
 
Hope the Carter situation cools both the coaching staff and the posters here on JUCO guys. They almost never live up to the expectations fans set for them.

They basically have to be all-world in JUCO to be worth a look and even then it's 50/50. Sa led all of JUCO in blocks and was pretty much a non-factor here. It worked out with Freeman but he wasn't cut out to be the second-best player on a power-conference team. Don't need to go over Souf.

Carter looks like he's going to be another Sa (in terms of impact, not style of play) at best.
 
Sa played pretty well down the stretch last season. How many guys do you all expect to get run in the rotation? Duke was a starter last year and is having trouble finding minutes. Tell me whose minutes you want Carter taking right now before we imply that Pike made a mistake with the schollie.

As to back-up PG, McConnell went through a lot right before the season. Let's see what he does in the rest of the OOC following @Wisky. His highlights are still really intriguing and he's a true frosh
 
Sa played pretty well down the stretch last season. How many guys do you all expect to get run in the rotation? Duke was a starter last year and is having trouble finding minutes. Tell me whose minutes you want Carter taking right now before we imply that Pike made a mistake with the schollie.

As to back-up PG, McConnell went through a lot right before the season. Let's see what he does in the rest of the OOC following @Wisky. His highlights are still really intriguing and he's a true frosh
Physically went through a lot?
 
It is a big question for next year whether Carter and Doucoure can be part of an NCAA tournament caliber front court. If not we need to help that situation with the last schollie. I think Johnson will start next year and be solid
 
We're running with an 8-man rotation at this point. Baker, Thiam, Omoruyi, Kiss, Doorson, Harper, Johnson, Mathis. Really need another guy to step up.
 
Duke is currently ahead of Shaq Carter. The writing was on the wall about Shaq Carter last year, but we all didn't want to read it.

Backup PG not an issue next year. Probably going to have to resign to the fact that Baker will play 38 MPG and he will hit a major wall at the end of the year. Pikiell tried early in the 2nd half and it just didn't work. I have a small issue with the other 4 he put alongside Caleb.

Curious, what was the writing on the wall last year about SC?
 
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Caleb will be okay. He just needs some more burn. He is a freshamn and wasnt super rated so he will take some time grooming.

Carter is confusing. I love Johnson and Doorsons defensive/overall progression is nice.

NCAA are a pipe dream but the NIT or the CBI would be great for this team.
 
We're running with an 8-man rotation at this point. Baker, Thiam, Omoruyi, Kiss, Doorson, Harper, Johnson, Mathis. Really need another guy to step up.

The good news is 200 divided by 8 is 25 and with the exception of Doorson they all can play multiple positions.

Baker 34
Eugene 32
Issa 25
Kiss 25
Harper 22
Mathis 22
Johnson 20
Doorson 20

Injuries, back up PG, foul trouble, match ups are the issues.
 
The good news is 200 divided by 8 is 25 and with the exception of Doorson they all can play multiple positions.

Baker 34
Eugene 32
Issa 25
Kiss 25
Harper 22
Mathis 22
Johnson 20
Doorson 20

Injuries, back up PG, foul trouble, match ups are the issues.

Foul trouble is probably the most frequent depth issue. It's pretty clear Pike isn't confident in Doucoure/Carter playing significant minutes right now, so foul trouble for our bigs could lead us into some shaky territory. Same with foul trouble for Baker leading us to rely more on McConnell before he's ready.
 
Foul trouble is probably the most frequent depth issue. It's pretty clear Pike isn't confident in Doucoure/Carter playing significant minutes right now, so foul trouble for our bigs could lead us into some shaky territory. Same with foul trouble for Baker leading us to rely more on McConnell before he's ready.

Another issue is if one of the 8 have a bad day or needs minutes taken away because of effort or not getting something. We are almost at the point where default minutes have ended, but we aren't quite there yet. I think we have a player or 2 in the rotation that isn't quite on the same page or where he needs to be defensively OR what his role is offensively.
 
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Does Pikiell have the guts to take 1 of the remaining cupcake games and play Baker 20 minutes and force fed Caleb 20 minutes.

Not if it means losing a game. Not worth it. CM can continue to get spot minutes and get more comfortable that way, and in practice. Our schedule is too hard to give away games.

Maybe Pike should try getting CM some minutes WITH GEO ON THE FLOOR.
 
Nobody has any perspective I guess.

It's December of 2016, we have a grad transfer in CJ Gettys playing, Ibrahima Diallo barely played early in that season, Shaq Doorson could not play more than 3 minutes at a time and Candido Sa was found to provide defense and rebounding.

The staff has landed Doucoure later that month as a big and looks at the roster for the following season and sees Diallo as a backup that probably isn't the best fit BUT he played valuable minutes at times on the road at Seton Hall later that month, but was not healthy most of that season....he decides to transfer after that season to Manhattan.

Shaq Doorson is 340 pounds back in 2016 when Shaq arrives...., he's dragging around a bad foot and the staff starts scouring around for rebounding and size and looks into Shaq Carter during the 2016-17 season, who had a fast start as a freshman JUCO player....I was clued in about Pike making multiple visits to FLA and making headway on his recruitment. We start really recruiting him harder and others gather interest as well.

Fast forward with no Gettys, Sa as a senior and Shaq Doorson is in a walking boot after surgery with no offseason conditioning in the spring of 2017....The staff explores Doucoure enrolling early and that happens, even though it was rumored as a likely item back after the 2016/17 season ended.

We continue to recruit Carter and land him in October of last year....Doorson is still a non factor before last season starts and not healthy and Doucoure, technically a 2018 recruit is now here early, with no summer training camp and vicious learning curve. Sa is still around as a complimentary player that provides better defense and rebounding, which is his role, but he's a senior about to depart......and we have no idea whether Doorson was a viable grad school option at RU or would he decide to take a 5th year elsewhere. You absolutely have to chase down Shaq Carter, there could have been no options up front.

Meanwhile, while we are recruiting Shaq Carter behind the scenes, Jay Young stumbles onto Myles Johnson in Indianapolis in the spring of 2017 and we start looking closer at him....he's also hampered by a bad knee from the prior season and carrying a ton of extra weight, but has a skill set of a small player at 6'10". We quickly and aggressively offer him, along with Georgia Tech and a couple of others...... knowing we may not land Shaq Carter and Myles is convinced that RU is the place for him, our engineering program etc...he's 40 pounds heavier than he should be, but we like his upside.

So Doucoure is a year early, Myles then redshirts because Shaq Doorson is available to play, we have Sa as a 3rd big....and in a pinch, we can go smaller with Freeman and Eugene, so we have the luxury of redshirting Myles Johnson.

From January of 2018 to today, Doorson has gotten into much better shape and worked very hard, Doucoure is still around competing for minutes and Myles Johnson buys into working through his redshirt season, lifts, runs and is transformed into a likely starter next year. Shaq Carter arrives and has to compete against 3 kids already a full year into the system and acclimated to what has to happen.

Right now, Doorson is providing what I expected Carter to provide and Myles Johnson is wildly talented, but very raw....but passes the ball and is likely a year away from being very nice as a complimentary big man. Doucoure is suddenly passed by because of Johnson's progress and Doorson sheds another 20 pounds and can suddenly move around a little bit. Carter goes from a likely focal point 12 to 14 months ago when he was recruited and committed to a person having to fight for time.

I don't see any path for Carter playing a lot, as long as Doorson is healthy and rebounding well and Doucoure is around to provide some threat of offense ....and Myles should play 8 to 12 minutes a night. But the biggest item to note was how uncertain things looked at the time we started pursuing Carter and how happy I am we landed Carter. He is a needed item for this year and next year. On the flip side, I really was happy we snuck in and landed Myles Johnson and that Shaq Doorson is finally able to contribute while healthy. I'm not necessarily concerned with who plays as much as how the team plays in general.

The McConnell item is separate, but I think warrants more time before jumping the gun on a thought there, before we exit November of his freshman season. We already have people believing they have the entire freshman class figured out, when we've played 3 weeks of live basketball and 6 games. Probably not a good idea to jump that far ahead.
 
Hawk, interesting history - no doubt it made sense for Pike to bring in Carter, and it's understandable why he's riding the pine. It's just disappointing that a guy we ALL thought would be relied on for 15-20+ mpg is the last man off the bench and hasn't seen a minute of meaningful playing time. And with Doorson graduating and Doucoure still a work in progress, our "big" situation for next year is quite concerning.
 
Hawk, interesting history - no doubt it made sense for Pike to bring in Carter, and it's understandable why he's riding the pine. It's just disappointing that a guy we ALL thought would be relied on for 15-20+ mpg is the last man off the bench and hasn't seen a minute of meaningful playing time. And with Doorson graduating and Doucoure still a work in progress, our "big" situation for next year is quite concerning.

I'll be shocked if we roll into next season with Johnson, Doucoure, and Carter as our big guys. Additions and/or subtractions will happen.
 
Totally makes sense why they would go after Carter.

Not every player will work out

If it was a known he had a high bust probability 6-9 months ago I don’t want Pike pulling scholarships.

We still have a lot of the season left

NJ Hawk is always a must read.
 
If the JUCO route is to be used, just use it for a backup PG. It's such a risk. A lot of coaches struggle with prospecting D1 recruits from lower conference schools. It is hard to see how the increase in competition will fair.

Adonis De Rosa from Illinois for example.
 
Not if it means losing a game. Not worth it. CM can continue to get spot minutes and get more comfortable that way, and in practice. Our schedule is too hard to give away games.

Maybe Pike should try getting CM some minutes WITH GEO ON THE FLOOR.

I like this idea as well.
 
Hope the Carter situation cools both the coaching staff and the posters here on JUCO guys. They almost never live up to the expectations fans set for them.

They basically have to be all-world in JUCO to be worth a look and even then it's 50/50. Sa led all of JUCO in blocks and was pretty much a non-factor here. It worked out with Freeman but he wasn't cut out to be the second-best player on a power-conference team. Don't need to go over Souf.

Carter looks like he's going to be another Sa (in terms of impact, not style of play) at best.

For all of the great things this staff has done, their swing and misses with JUCOs is puzzling and costly. Souf was a total bust. Sa was a disappointment. And, while the jury is still far from coming back in yet on Carter, it does not look like he'll have a big impact.
 
Nobody has any perspective I guess.

It's December of 2016, we have a grad transfer in CJ Gettys playing, Ibrahima Diallo barely played early in that season, Shaq Doorson could not play more than 3 minutes at a time and Candido Sa was found to provide defense and rebounding.

The staff has landed Doucoure later that month as a big and looks at the roster for the following season and sees Diallo as a backup that probably isn't the best fit BUT he played valuable minutes at times on the road at Seton Hall later that month, but was not healthy most of that season....he decides to transfer after that season to Manhattan.

Shaq Doorson is 340 pounds back in 2016 when Shaq arrives...., he's dragging around a bad foot and the staff starts scouring around for rebounding and size and looks into Shaq Carter during the 2016-17 season, who had a fast start as a freshman JUCO player....I was clued in about Pike making multiple visits to FLA and making headway on his recruitment. We start really recruiting him harder and others gather interest as well.

Fast forward with no Gettys, Sa as a senior and Shaq Doorson is in a walking boot after surgery with no offseason conditioning in the spring of 2017....The staff explores Doucoure enrolling early and that happens, even though it was rumored as a likely item back after the 2016/17 season ended.

We continue to recruit Carter and land him in October of last year....Doorson is still a non factor before last season starts and not healthy and Doucoure, technically a 2018 recruit is now here early, with no summer training camp and vicious learning curve. Sa is still around as a complimentary player that provides better defense and rebounding, which is his role, but he's a senior about to depart......and we have no idea whether Doorson was a viable grad school option at RU or would he decide to take a 5th year elsewhere. You absolutely have to chase down Shaq Carter, there could have been no options up front.

Meanwhile, while we are recruiting Shaq Carter behind the scenes, Jay Young stumbles onto Myles Johnson in Indianapolis in the spring of 2017 and we start looking closer at him....he's also hampered by a bad knee from the prior season and carrying a ton of extra weight, but has a skill set of a small player at 6'10". We quickly and aggressively offer him, along with Georgia Tech and a couple of others...... knowing we may not land Shaq Carter and Myles is convinced that RU is the place for him, our engineering program etc...he's 40 pounds heavier than he should be, but we like his upside.

So Doucoure is a year early, Myles then redshirts because Shaq Doorson is available to play, we have Sa as a 3rd big....and in a pinch, we can go smaller with Freeman and Eugene, so we have the luxury of redshirting Myles Johnson.

From January of 2018 to today, Doorson has gotten into much better shape and worked very hard, Doucoure is still around competing for minutes and Myles Johnson buys into working through his redshirt season, lifts, runs and is transformed into a likely starter next year. Shaq Carter arrives and has to compete against 3 kids already a full year into the system and acclimated to what has to happen.

Right now, Doorson is providing what I expected Carter to provide and Myles Johnson is wildly talented, but very raw....but passes the ball and is likely a year away from being very nice as a complimentary big man. Doucoure is suddenly passed by because of Johnson's progress and Doorson sheds another 20 pounds and can suddenly move around a little bit. Carter goes from a likely focal point 12 to 14 months ago when he was recruited and committed to a person having to fight for time.

I don't see any path for Carter playing a lot, as long as Doorson is healthy and rebounding well and Doucoure is around to provide some threat of offense ....and Myles should play 8 to 12 minutes a night. But the biggest item to note was how uncertain things looked at the time we started pursuing Carter and how happy I am we landed Carter. He is a needed item for this year and next year. On the flip side, I really was happy we snuck in and landed Myles Johnson and that Shaq Doorson is finally able to contribute while healthy. I'm not necessarily concerned with who plays as much as how the team plays in general.

The McConnell item is separate, but I think warrants more time before jumping the gun on a thought there, before we exit November of his freshman season. We already have people believing they have the entire freshman class figured out, when we've played 3 weeks of live basketball and 6 games. Probably not a good idea to jump that far ahead.

Do you think the McClung decommit/Carter commit went hand-in-hand? We would not have had the opening if McClung hadn’t changed his mind (seemingly abruptly), and the timing seems kind of odd.

I was thrilled to have Carter instead of McClung at the time. Now, in retrospect...not so much.
 
For all of the great things this staff has done, their swing and misses with JUCOs is puzzling and costly. Souf was a total bust. Sa was a disappointment. And, while the jury is still far from coming back in yet on Carter, it does not look like he'll have a big impact.

Sa originally committed to Eddie Jordan, or at least Eddie had laid the groundwork and I don't blame Pikiell for taking a commitment from anyone who was willing to come here after 2016 (Matt Bullock fits this category as well).

But unless we're getting a total no-doubt stud (like a guy who was highly rated in HS but went to JUCO for grades and put up huge numbers) then I think we should be focusing our attention on HSers and transfers.
 
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What's with the Shaq Carter obsession? People clamoring for the 4th string big? Why? Whose minutes should he be taking? Big Shaq looks great and Myles looks like a future stud. Doucoure is a 4 star former starter who can barely get minutes but we for some reason NEED to find a way to get Carter on the floor? We have another big body for depth and that is always a good thing. Not everyone can play this isn't rec ball
 
Do you think the McClung decommit/Carter commit went hand-in-hand? We would not have had the opening if McClung hadn’t changed his mind (seemingly abruptly), and the timing seems kind of odd.

I was thrilled to have Carter instead of McClung at the time. Now, in retrospect...not so much.
From McClunga play, I am okay with him not being here.
 
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What's with the Shaq Carter obsession? People clamoring for the 4th string big? Why? Whose minutes should he be taking? Big Shaq looks great and Myles looks like a future stud. Doucoure is a 4 star former starter who can barely get minutes but we for some reason NEED to find a way to get Carter on the floor? We have another big body for depth and that is always a good thing. Not everyone can play this isn't rec ball
The obsession from my perspective anyway is that while it may not matter much this year, it’s fair to wonder if a frontcourt rotation of Johnson, Doucoure, and Carter will allow this team to win 23 or so games next year like some of us are hoping for. Doucoure may improve his contribution level and Carter may turn out to be decent, but they’re question marks at best right now.
 
A grad transfer PG would have been ideal this season

If Downes was a few inches taller he could spell Geo for a few minutes.

Will people stop with the Downes kid. He is a walk-on PG, him dribbling out of trouble up 30 against EMU doesn't make him capable of playing at the B10 f*** sake. Just stop!
 
The obsession from my perspective anyway is that while it may not matter much this year, it’s fair to wonder if a frontcourt rotation of Johnson, Doucoure, and Carter will allow this team to win 23 or so games next year like some of us are hoping for. Doucoure may improve his contribution level and Carter may turn out to be decent, but they’re question marks at best right now.
Players leave teams every year. Things work itself out. No coach will be right in choosing players 100% of the time, and no student will always be correct in choosing their destination. It happens.
 
Players leave teams every year. Things work itself out. No coach will be right in choosing players 100% of the time, and no student will always be correct in choosing their destination. It happens.
Well, I think both of the guys mentioned will be back, they won’t transfer. But I also think Pikiell will use the last scholarship on somebody that can play center and can score a bit.
 
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What's with the Shaq Carter obsession? People clamoring for the 4th string big? Why? Whose minutes should he be taking? Big Shaq looks great and Myles looks like a future stud. Doucoure is a 4 star former starter who can barely get minutes but we for some reason NEED to find a way to get Carter on the floor? We have another big body for depth and that is always a good thing. Not everyone can play this isn't rec ball

Obsession? I must have missed the 10 or so threads on him the last couple of days. :rolleyes:

If you had been paying attention, Carter received a lot of interest prior to the season on this board, especially with regard to whether he could help to replace Freeman's production or even take a lion's share of the minutes at center. There was talk about his high Juco national ranking, his size underneath, his rebounding ability. Some people (not many) even listed him in their projected starting lineups at center. Many people were expecting him to play 15+ min/game this year, while others were cautioning to put the brakes on those expectations based on his Juco play last year.

Instead, he's played 11 min through 6 games, and it's understandable that would draw some attention. Why wouldn't it?

We're currently only playing an 8 man rotation, with just 2 guys taller than 6-7 in the post. While Doorson/Johnson/Omoruyi/Harper have been doing a good job in the post, it's likely as we enter B1G play that we'll run into foul trouble at points and will need to dip deeper into Doucoure/Carter at times. So far, we don't know what that will look like, because they've had so few minutes this year.
 
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