Take this team and coach and add a Quincy Douby type shooter and suddenly we're an NCAA team. Suddenly we're the ones making the big shot at the end of the game and not the other team. This is even with our FT woes.
The OFFICIAL RU-tOSU Game Thread
- Thread starter RutgersRaRa
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You blame the coach for players not being able to shoot fouls, most of which are players he inherited?
It's definitely mental with these kids. When I played we had a really good coach that forced us to run wind sprints if we missed FT's. We also simulated game speed and then stopped the game and immediately shot FT's. I'm sure Pikiell knows what needs to be done, but you can't really change a bad FT shooting team right in the thick of a season.
Is our three point shooting and jump shooting mental too? We cannot shoot period. No one on this team can shoot. There are no Geoff Billets or Rob Hodgsons on this team. That's why we can't make free throws.
There is bad...and theres bad
We are the latter...and it has cost us a few games. You cant just look the other way.
And for the umpteenth time I am a huge fan of our coach. But he's not perfect.
I'm not saying ANYTHING about whether you like the coach or not. I'm answering your question as to why we suck at FT's. It's mainly mental, but for some of the guys it's physical. I guarantee you Pikiell and staff have these kids shooting hundreds of FT's in practice. If they're not forcing them to play a simulated game and then shoot FT's there's no way they can improve just by shooting a gazillion FT's in the gym with no pressure on them.
Corey Sanders free throw percentage is down about 10 points this year. And Nigel Johnson has much better form than his free throw percentage. This is all mental. It's obvious to anyone who's dribbled a basketball in their life. That is on the coach and the staff.
Our team can make a run in the B1G tournament or just as easily lose in the first round. So close in so many games.
That said, 4 of our last 6 are home. Minnesota, Michigan, Maryland, Illinois. On the road @NW and @Purdue. The only one I think we lose bad is Purdue. The rest we have a shot. Feeling about Saturday the same way I did about Nebraska. We can get it.
That said, 4 of our last 6 are home. Minnesota, Michigan, Maryland, Illinois. On the road @NW and @Purdue. The only one I think we lose bad is Purdue. The rest we have a shot. Feeling about Saturday the same way I did about Nebraska. We can get it.
Look, this is the last time I'll jump in here. YOU'RE WRONG!!!! It's not on the coach. Did you ever play competitive BB? I did. I also coached. No matter how much you do with the kids, it's up to the kids to sink them in actual game when it matters.
NO...YOU ARE WRONG. I AM SHOUTING LOUDER.
btw...williams ft % down about 7 points this year.
When multiple kids who are capable of doing something don't do it to the level they're supposed to do it, that is the definition of it being on the coach and the staff.
Sorry. I am with Sir here. There is a HUGE difference between shooting from way out on the 3pt line and shooting off the jump vs. standing at the line still with the backboard squarely in your face. Everyone else standing too.
I am NOT saying this is on coach...BUT somebody please get me this answer...which if I were him MY BOSS would be asking me.
TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM?
That's all. Tell me. If it didn't work. Ok. But tell me what you did to address it?
There are pro teams that are as horrendous as us at the line. Sometimes you get a collection of players who suck at the line. The average NBA player probably shoots somewhere around 75% from the line, and we shoot 1/10 less than that, maybe worse in our conference games. There's no miracle cure--some guys can't shoot. Some of the top coaches only recruit guys who can shoot from the line as a starting point--we don't have that luxury yet.
There is nothing that can be done to practice FTs in a game other than shooting FTs in practice which I guarantee you we are doing. We don't have good FT shooters period and it's not changing.
I gave two examples of Players whose free throw percentage has gone down significantly since last year. These guys can shoot free throws. They're not doing it this year.
Playing in a power conference with a squad full of non shooters is a sure recipe for being ranked last in the B1G.The only way out of this morass is for getting a couple players to transfer and be replaced with 5th year seniors or jucos who are shooters.
Sanders and Williams shooting percentages have gone down 7% since last year going into this game. Corey's will go up slightly based on tonight's game. Is that really a significant drop?
But he has only taken five, and two have been in and out, half a minute was left and they were down by four, no one was unguarded, I guarantee you the coach did not have a problem with that shot in that situation
It's partly (and probably largely) on Jordan for not coaching these guys to play defense and rebound, which Pikiell has had to do since he got here. Those additional demands on the players are causing shortfalls in production in other areas. There's only so much time he gets with the guys, and he has had to go back to square one and teach them fundamentals. The more I see what Pike is doing, the more I see that Eddie didn't coach these guys. Corey will be very good next year since he'll understand how college offenses work, and the players he has around him will understand how to move without the ball, where to look, where to pass, etc. I'm as frustrated as the next guy because FTs were never a problem for me, but Pike had to teach defense, offense, rebounding, outlet passes, perimeter offense, inside out, all the things Eddie neglected. That explains, at least to me, why some of their numbers are off.
Very possible RaRa. I have often wondered if the intensity we are giving this year on the defensive end is affecting our free throw shooting.
If Mike, Corey and Nigel all were shooting well from the free throw line but some of our bigs (who are terrible shooters) were not, then I would buy that they are just not a talented group. However guys who have been good free throw shooters in the past and guys who have very good shooting strokes are just horrendous from the free-throw line.
I know I am repeating myself for the 5th time but I am willing to bet money that after the season coach mentions this as something he wishes he could have improved on during the season.
One other thing that's different this season is the guys are going through actual strength and conditioning which possibly could alter the free throw in that the players need to recalibrate the effort expended in getting the ball into the basket. However, all the points that RaRa has mentioned are also true. It is probably all cumulative.
LOL – – The idea that it is Jordan's fault that the team's free-throw shooting a year after he left is significantly worse than when he left is just off the charts crazy. It is obviously George Bush's fault that our free throw shooting has deteriorated.
Good point about the S&C changes--I hadn't even thought of that, but if they are lifting and conditioning differently, it could be part of it. Honestly, it could be as simple as Mike and Corey having off years at the line. It's not like their numbers are off horrendously, but it is magnified when we are losing games because they are all shooting so poorly at the line. It's bad when your guards aren't making the FTs that we see other teams' guards making, and I don't know why we are so bad. But having spent as much time in the gym in my life as I have, as well as watching college and pro basketball over the decades, it comes down to some guys can shoot and some guys can't. Coaches can only do so much to cure it. Shaquille O'Neill shot around 45% from the line, which was the advent of Hack-A-Shaq, and they brought in all kinds of experts to help his shot (including, IIRC, a stint with shooting underhanded), and nothing worked. It wasn't due to lack of trying on behalf of Shaq or the staff, he just sucked. Our guys aren't this bad, and I agree with SirScarlet that Pike might wish he had figured out what to do, but I doubt it's because he didn't try.
Which Bush? Oh wait, hang on, I wanted to continue this discussion but Coach Flood is on the line....he says hello, but that he doesn't like you very much.
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I needed to take a break from this thread last night, but wanted to circle back and get my final comments on this.
1) I fully agree with you @RutgersRaRa that he's probably tried everything. I do believe my comments on Pike "owning" the poor FT shooting are getting taken out of context a bit. But I am not backing down from my belief that the drop in FT shooting is something that we can/should hold him (and the staff accountable for). I do get all the points that we may be more tired, it might be lower on the priority list, etc.
2) At the end of the day, it has cost has several games, so I am not sure how we can just chalk it up to "we have poor shooters". I dont believe we have great shooters so I am not expecting 90+ % FT shooters (context on my position)
3) I looked up a few stats
a) Corey - last year 71%...this year 63%...8 point drop
b) Williams - last year ~80%...this year ~73%...7 point drop
c) DeShawn Freeman was a 70% FT shooter in JUCO. Did you know that? This year he is shooting 60%....10 point drop
d) Candido shot 69% at JC...this year...42%
e) I think Nigel is about the same %age from KSU to now...I checked last night...but not this morning
f) Gettys 74%....this year 68%
I didnt check the others...as I dont think there are either meaningful opportunities this year, or last year.
But people on these boards just say we have bad shooters. Rough math, if we shot 70% from the FT line (which is what all the guys above shot last year), we would have several more wins.
Am I saying this is all our staffs fault. No. But I do view this as my biggest criticism of the staff this year. Because I do believe that a coach's job is to get players to play up to their potential. and if they had these %ages in the past, they are capable of these #s. I started looking into this early in the season, and my conclusion (as I have posted numerous times on these boards) is that this has become a mental issue. and when you have a mental issue that affects essentially the ENTIRE team...how is that not on the staff?
Hope this is more clear (as I am typing this while working ;) )
And for @RU MAN ...no, I have never played or coached competitive basketball (other than playing in the gyms while at RU if that counts...lol)...but I was a damn decent FT shooter :) And this came with mucho mucho practice. But it doesnt change the legitimacy of my points.
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Good post, and I think it supports the idea that something systemic is impacting the shooting, since many of our starters' numbers are down. This, to me, suggests that the new demands on the team are impacting their psyches, which makes sense given the difference between the way Eddie coached and the way Pike coaches, especially in practice. It may be a case of an ego blow to the guys once they discovered they had so much ground to make up (especially in Corey's case, who actually tested the NBA waters but got no bites). He is an incredible athlete, but had/has a lot to learn about the position before an NBA coach will turn a team over to him. This is where the cognitive demands might be bleeding into their mental strength at the line, and perhaps they're overthinking things now because they're being trained to think about things they didn't have to under Eddie (or possibly elsewhere, such as Freeman playing Juco).
Sometimes I see our guys at the line and it reminds me of Charles Barkley's golf swing after he became a train wreck. He used to have a pretty nice swing, then he started thinking so much about it that it snowballed out of control. Our FT shooting won't devolve to that extent, but it is emblematic of the impact that thinking/overthinking can have on an athlete. I think we are taking one step back to take two forward, and the place our backward step is showing up is FT shooting because we are losing games by small margins, margins that would have been overcome with a 15% improvement in FT shooting. Mercifully, this is probably fixable, especially since the guys shot well in the past. But when the whole team reduces production by similar numbers, it says something systemic is the root cause, and to me it's most likely the new system and thinking about what they're doing on the court. Once the offense (and defense) comes more naturally, rather than cognitively, their motion at the line will return.
That's my guess.
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I don't think they necessarily need to be seniors or jucos. If Thiam or a new recruit can figure out the speed of the game and drain their shots, that will work, too. One thing is obvious tor recruits, and it's what our offensive schemes are and what they can be. Each year in this system will make it easier for new players to fit within the offense since there will be fewer players trying to figure it out. This year it was a baptism by fire due to the overhaul of every aspect of the game, but in years to come it will be possible for a freshman shooter to step onto the court and contribute. When you look at how Corey's quickness can break defenses down, and now that he is more comfortable running it, if he has a shooter who knows where to move on the perimeter without the ball, he can dish it to him and it's a free shot from there.
After every game , the same discussion takes place and the answer always should be the same,namely,the lack of players who are shooters is the reason for the losses .This explanation won't satisfy some fans who want a quick fix like more practice shooting foul shots.
You say Barkley...in the past I have said Knoblauch :) I completely believe it is a mental issue right now. As evidenced by the stats.
at the end of the day, I am more than willing to accept this 1 step back (As you said)...because it's clear that Pike is building a system that will pay off in the long run. This is why I have tried to go out of my way to say in all my points that I love what he is doing.
Thanks for the thoughtful response.