ADVERTISEMENT

Thread for well-balanced, thoughtful RVision talk

John Otterstedt

Hall of Famer
Jul 10, 2001
25,826
6,187
113
Hello Everyone,

There are a few people who feel that the thread about RVision shouldn't have been deleted. Please understand that our small, but dedicated team of fan-moderators are doing their best to make tough decisions about hundreds of threads each day. When a thread is deleted, there are often reasons that you don't see at first glance. Often, it is not the initial post, but the follow-ups. As many of you know, a single person can ruin a thread. We cannot watch a thread 24 hours, so sometimes we give it a few chances (pruning offending posts) and then have to make a decision - keep it, lock it, delete it.

If you would like to discuss RVision, and if you can do it in a respectable and non-inflammatory way, please do so in this thread.

Thank you,

John
 
  • Like
Reactions: RUTaxEsq and JQRU91
So let's take this from the top.

Here are my questions, to start:

1. Who, specifically, is the decision-maker with regard to RVision operations? I've heard it's Jon Newman, and nobody in the AD's office has any leverage.

2. Why is Mr. Newman aka RVision raising money for "student-produced programming", only to use some amount of money to hire a non-RU student or grad for its most high-profile role?
 
Thanks John. I was under the assumption when asked last year to donate $30,000 that this was a way to get Rutgers students experience in sports programming. Taryn Hatcher was an example of this. She was basically an intern getting a great opportunity. Is this still the case, or is R Vision now a place looking to hire a pretty face whether they are Rutgers students or not?
 
it does seem that the request for donations last year (solicited heavily on this board) was under false pretenses. That's my biggest issue with this. RVision seems kinda rogue.
 
To me, the biggest issue from RVision wasn't the addition of Macy. The biggest issue was the fact that donations were solicited, and then basically the BTN took over a ton of the programming and turned it into premium content.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JQRU91
Was there no one (female or male) in SCILS or elsewhere on campus interested & remotely qualified? This position should go to a Rutgers student or alum & be used as a stepping stone to break into the industry. It should definitely not go to someone from a rival (whose name our HFBC won't even say, btw) who tweeted negatively about Rutgers, possibly even around the time she was offered or hired, & who has a JoePa idol pic years after the hiding pedophile story & trial. And after she's hired, how does no one in the AD tell her to clean up her social media?! Classic case of typical RU vetting; there obviously was none. It's a disgrace. Next time someone asks you to explain the RU Screw this is it: we hired a cult member, who negatively tweeted about us, as our sideline reporter, over our own.
 
To me, the biggest issue from RVision wasn't the addition of Macy. The biggest issue was the fact that donations were solicited, and then basically the BTN took over a ton of the programming and turned it into premium content.

Do happen to know what fiduciary ties Mr. Newman has to RVision?

According to their contact info, it's a CBS Interactive property. I'd be interested in knowing what the specific construct of its management and ownership is since, to your point, CBSi doesn't seem to have anything directly to do with BTN.
 
I don't personally know anything about him or RVision that I haven't read on this board.

I do know that we switched over the main ScarletKnights website a while back to the CBS college website thing. I would just assume everything on it is being run through those templates.

When I mentioned BTN, I was referring to the following note on the ScarletKnights website:

"RVision is your online home for the most comprehensive coverage of Rutgers Athletics. Get Games, highlights, press conferences, and the coaches shows you want - all in one place. For BTN2Go Rutgers live events click here."
 
I don't personally know anything about him or RVision that I haven't read on this board.

I do know that we switched over the main ScarletKnights website a while back to the CBS college website thing. I would just assume everything on it is being run through those templates.

When I mentioned BTN, I was referring to the following note on the ScarletKnights website:

"RVision is your online home for the most comprehensive coverage of Rutgers Athletics. Get Games, highlights, press conferences, and the coaches shows you want - all in one place. For BTN2Go Rutgers live events click here."

Gotcha. What that last bit tells me is that they're just trying to differentiate between RVision content and BTN2Go content - which could confuse some people.

It's my personal believe that RVision should be A) entirely, 100% Rutgers student/faculty/staff operated and B) should fall 100% under the control of the office of the Athletic Director.

We became aware the other night that the first of these isn't true. I learned tonight that the second isn't true, either.

Which is not to suggest that there's anything necessarily sinister in its purpose, but it's definitely an opportunity lost.
 
Do happen to know what fiduciary ties Mr. Newman has to RVision?

According to their contact info, it's a CBS Interactive property. I'd be interested in knowing what the specific construct of its management and ownership is since, to your point, CBSi doesn't seem to have anything directly to do with BTN.
CBSi is the online digital media company that all B1G schools use for their athletics website, which includes the video.


it does seem that the request for donations last year (solicited heavily on this board) was under false pretenses. That's my biggest issue with this. RVision seems kinda rogue.

To me, the biggest issue from RVision wasn't the addition of Macy. The biggest issue was the fact that donations were solicited, and then basically the BTN took over a ton of the programming and turned it into premium content.
I don't see any misrepresentation or false pretenses. He asked for $ for "new cameras, laptops and student stipends," according to the donations oage, which is where the $ went (There were no promises of free or premium content or who managed it):

We’ve eclipsed our $30K goal and are now at $32,500.

Thanks so much to all who donated. If you haven’t, it’s never too late…

For those of us who live outside of the New York Metro following Rutgers sports is easier because of the hard work of folks like Jason Baum, Colin Osborne and the many contributors to RVision.

Created in 2009, RVision now broadcasts more than 100 live events including games of Rutgers many Olympic sports. In addition, countless interviews and game highlights are posted by the RVision staff on ScarletKnights.com.

This year with Rutgers joining the Big Ten, RVision will be counted on to supply even more content, not only through the usual channels but to the Big Ten Network as well. As a result, the RVision staff needs more equipment and more manpower.

All Rutgers fans can help. Let’s raise the $30k needed for new cameras, laptops and student stipends. This short campaign between now and Opening Day for football on August 28th will hopefully fill this game.

No donation is too small. Just click the link below and show RPride. Thanks,
 
Is it smart to hire a reporter who previously bashed Rutgers (aka her current employer) in social media? I have nothing against the women but a simple background check of social media would have provided insight that could of influenced the hiring decision. Since we a consumer of these services it is well within our rights to discuss if this is someone we want as the face of RU in this media outlet.
 
CBSi is the online digital media company that all B1G schools use for their athletics website, which includes the video.

I don't see any misrepresentation or false pretenses. He asked for $ for "new cameras, laptops and student stipends," according to the donations oage, which is where the $ went (There were no promises of free or premium content or who managed it):

We’ve eclipsed our $30K goal and are now at $32,500.

Thanks so much to all who donated. If you haven’t, it’s never too late…

For those of us who live outside of the New York Metro following Rutgers sports is easier because of the hard work of folks like Jason Baum, Colin Osborne and the many contributors to RVision.

Created in 2009, RVision now broadcasts more than 100 live events including games of Rutgers many Olympic sports. In addition, countless interviews and game highlights are posted by the RVision staff on ScarletKnights.com.

This year with Rutgers joining the Big Ten, RVision will be counted on to supply even more content, not only through the usual channels but to the Big Ten Network as well. As a result, the RVision staff needs more equipment and more manpower.

All Rutgers fans can help. Let’s raise the $30k needed for new cameras, laptops and student stipends. This short campaign between now and Opening Day for football on August 28th will hopefully fill this game.

No donation is too small. Just click the link below and show RPride. Thanks,

See, now you said "he".

So what is Newman's connection to RVision, exactly?

There's a point, here... I just don't want to make it speculatively.
 
Before they switched over to BTN, a lot of the content was freely streamed. Since then, the good stuff has gone to BTN2GO. Yeah, I may still get to see a girls field hockey game, but I had the app open pretty much every night in the past. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not "what's her name that got kicked out of the lot despite 80 years of pretending to go to all the football games". The B1G and BTN are cash cows. I'm glad that the school will be able to pull in $40-50M/yr in exchange for me not being able to see a Rutgers home basketball game on RVision (or whatever it was called before the name change) for free.

If I remember correctly, a lot of the $30K was directed towards buying some extra equipment so they could provide more opportunities to film more stuff and upgrade production quality. I didn't think it was to solely fund the program and on-air talent (although I'm sure the money definitely helped that cause).
 
  • Like
Reactions: JPhoboken
So what is Newman's connection to RVision, exactly?

I thought he funded a lot of the money either to start it or take it from the old format to upgrading to the new RVision when the name changed. I forget the conversations he's had explaining it in the past. I don't know what part he has with it now, other than some input. I'm sure someone, if not Jon himself, can fill us in.
 
If I remember correctly, a lot of the $30K was directed towards buying some extra equipment so they could provide more opportunities to film more stuff and upgrade production quality. I didn't think it was to solely fund the program and on-air talent (although I'm sure the money definitely helped that cause).

I get your point, but revenue is revenue, right?

Assuming that RVision has an operating budget, if they need money for cameras and such then that's an expense. So are wages, travel costs (it was fun hanging out with Taryn in Detroit), etc.

As my wife the CPA would say, an expense is an expense and revenue is revenue. Saying that this piece of revenue pays for that expense... well, that's just bullshit.

My point being, if he didn't get people to give him $30k for cameras and computers, then he would have paid for it some other way - and maybe the on-air job would have gone to an RU intern.
 
Is it smart to hire a reporter who previously bashed Rutgers (aka her current employer) in social media? I have nothing against the women but a simple background check of social media would have provided insight that could of influenced the hiring decision. Since we a consumer of these services it is well within our rights to discuss if this is someone we want as the face of RU in this media outlet.
Isnt that the main point here. Whether shes qualifed or not - the main consumer of RVision isnt the random NJan. Its hardcore RU fans - the kind of people who you know - really really dislike Penn State.
 
Isnt that the main point here. Whether shes qualifed or not - the main consumer of RVision isnt the random NJan. Its hardcore RU fans - the kind of people who you know - really really dislike Penn State.

Not really a matter of disliking PSU or any other opponent, for that matter. It is a matter of taking care of our own. This position needs to go to an RU student or new grad, as a professional development outlet. RU Athletics needs to get on this.
 
I agree with the post above that raises the question, did anyone do a social media background check before the hire? If the comments about what she posted on twitter are true, anyone has the right to question if she the right person for a very visible Rutgers position, which relies on social media for promotion.
This has less to do about her and more to do with the hiring process from what I have read.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JQRU91 and RUsojo
See, now you said "he".

So what is Newman's connection to RVision, exactly?

There's a point, here... I just don't want to make it speculatively.
I'm not sure what you're implying & I have no idea who John is but my understanding is that he's an alum that donated $ & the Rutgers Athletics app, who knows what else, to support RVision & athletics & started the campaign to help Rutgers raise $ for those items.

Here's his website: http://hodgespart.com/gong/ & profile:

Jon Newman
Jon worked on-air and in management at a number of radio and TV news organizations in New Jersey, Tennessee and Virginia before joining The Martin Agency. He parlayed his media background into national media placements for countless clients, and that media relations focus is still a core competency at The Hodges Partnership. As the media landscape has changed, Jon’s focus now also includes social and digital media. His blog, Jon’s PR 1.5, chronicles the shift from old world PR pro to the new world of social and digital. He serves as a social media consultant for a number of clients, speaks publicly on the subject and teaches class on the topic at VCU. Jon is a graduate of Leadership Metro Richmond and has served on the boards organizations as diverse as the Henricus Historical Park and the Rockville Little League. He is a proud graduate of Rutgers University and can be seen there on home football weekends. Jon lives in Glen Allen, VA with his wife Kyra, children Sarah and Zachary and their lagotto romagnolo, Mario.
 
I agree with the post above that raises the question, did anyone do a social media background check before the hire? If the comments about what she posted on twitter are true, anyone has the right to question if she the right person for a very visible Rutgers position, which relies on social media for promotion.
This has less to do about her and more to do with the hiring process from what I have read.

I'd like to be respectful to the staff and keep this thread on track, but your post really speaks to one of the points that I made earlier. RU doesn't have direct control over the hire. From what I'm told, Jon Newman made the hire.

I get that some people donate a lot of money (we think). But my issue with this whole mess is, as I said in one of the earlier threads, a concern around "inmates running the asylum". We need donors, but if having any particular donor means giving them control over some crucial element of our program... Well, I'm not sure I want to be "that school".
 
I'd like to be respectful to the staff and keep this thread on track, but your post really speaks to one of the points that I made earlier. RU doesn't have direct control over the hire. From what I'm told, Jon Newman made the hire.

I get that some people donate a lot of money (we think). But my issue with this whole mess is, as I said in one of the earlier threads, a concern around "inmates running the asylum". We need donors, but if having any particular donor means giving them control over some crucial element of our program... Well, I'm not sure I want to be "that school".
Newman made the hire? What? Really? OMFG! Why didn't you lead with that?
 
Hasn't Newman been awfully outspoken about some other recent --- ummm --- controversies involving Rutgers athletics?
 
Newman made the hire? What? Really? OMFG

This is what I was told, by 2 people in two separate conversations.

I have no reason to believe that what they told me isn't true. I did notice also that when the whole thing blew up on Twitter the other night, he was the one who was the first to jump in and start bashing the people who were upset about the hire.

So, again - in the interest of keeping the thread off the new hire, per se, and more on the process - it's not really about the individual. It's about the fact that we have donors making personnel decisions (allegedly).

In my experience (having been born in SEC country) the only time that happens is when the head coaching job is part of the conversation and the donations in question are in the seven-figure range. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
  • Like
Reactions: MidwestKnights
This is what I was told, by 2 people in two separate conversations.

I have no reason to believe that what they told me isn't true. I did notice also that when the whole thing blew up on Twitter the other night, he was the one who was the first to jump in and start bashing the people who were upset about the hire.

So, again - in the interest of keeping the thread off the new hire, per se, and more on the process - it's not really about the individual. It's about the fact that we have donors making personnel decisions.

In my experience (having been born in SEC country) the only time that happens is when the head coaching job is part of the conversation and the donations in question are in the seven-figure range. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
Wow. I noticed he, Carlin & Danny B defending her & telling folks to chill & figured someone in the athletics dept reached out to try to calm things (& also had the original thread deleted). Even if the donors are running things, how does an alum hire her over a current student or alum?! Wow. That's bad.
 
Not really a matter of disliking PSU or any other opponent, for that matter. It is a matter of taking care of our own. This position needs to go to an RU student or new grad, as a professional development outlet. RU Athletics needs to get on this.

This is what bothers me.

Even putting aside her questionable social media comments, she should never have been hired imo. It should have gone to a RU student or grad. It's tough enough to break into that business. A RU kid should have been given the chance.

My daughter's best friend was sports editor of her college's newspaper. From there she went on to work in their media outlet. From there she interned at MLB network. By the time she was 25 she had won two Emmys for graphic content. Does that happen if her school had given the web site job to someone from another school?

Rutgers should be looking out for their own at all times.
 
This is what bothers me.

Even putting aside her questionable social media comments, she should never have been hired imo. It should have gone to a RU student or grad. It's tough enough to break into that business. A RU kid should have been given the chance.

My daughter's best friend was sports editor of her college's newspaper. From there she went on to work in their media outlet. From there she interned at MLB network. By the time she was 25 she had won two Emmys for graphic content. Does that happen if her school had given the web site job to someone from another school?

Rutgers should be looking out for their own at all times.

I look at it this way:

Have we ever hired somebody from another school to work at WRSU?
 
Hasn't Newman been awfully outspoken about some other recent --- ummm --- controversies involving Rutgers athletics?

Yes. Him and several folks who seem connected to him were bashing Julie pretty hard. Indicating she was over her head, not making enough progress, etc.

I am waiting for some answers in this thread before I pass judgment. But I can't lie...something smells here. And it dont smell good...
 
I agree with the post above that raises the question, did anyone do a social media background check before the hire? If the comments about what she posted on twitter are true, anyone has the right to question if she the right person for a very visible Rutgers position, which relies on social media for promotion.
This has less to do about her and more to do with the hiring process from what I have read.

there is no "IF". These photos and comments are direct from her twitter account:


From February: #Help

IMG_20150810_202750_zpsrvmozdnv.jpg




"Beat Rutgers":

BEAT%20RUTGERS_zpswljozhey.jpg



From this week, you know, when she was a Rutgers employee:

macy%20drawing_zps6zsscadk.jpg
 
I agree with the post above that raises the question, did anyone do a social media background check before the hire? If the comments about what she posted on twitter are true, anyone has the right to question if she the right person for a very visible Rutgers position, which relies on social media for promotion.
This has less to do about her and more to do with the hiring process from what I have read.

This in a nutshell is the entire argument. Are the people who staff R Vision Rutgers employees/interns? If they are Rutgers employees, who is in charge of hiring them? If they are interns, which class are they receiving credit, and are they matriculating students?

I personally have nothing against the woman hired, but I don't feel it was a qualified hiring. I believe the person representing Rutgers on R Vision should be passionate about what they are covering, not someone just looking to break into broadcasting. Putting this hire in a scarlet dress making her broadcast daily Rutgers updates is the same as putting anyone of us in a Maryland outfit and asking us to report on Randy Edsall's daily briefing.
 
there is no "IF". These photos and comments are direct from her twitter account:

From February: #Help

IMG_20150810_202750_zpsrvmozdnv.jpg
No surprise but she deleted this tweet & favoriting negative Rutgers replies to her tweets.
 
So this is how your reputation gets destroyed.

No, I didn't make the hire. I have no such influence. Whoever told anyone that is crazy.

I personally have given much more than $30k over the years to RVision in memory of my dad. Given my radio and TV background I thought it would be a great way to honor him.

Most of that money is earmarked to a full-time videographer position and equipment. When I promoted the fundraiser last year it was as a fan who thought he could use his donation to raise more money that Colin and he staff needed and still needs. I'm actually scheduled for a call tomorrow with Rutgers staff to discuss this year's needs.

I totally understand why some feel the way they do about Macy's hire. I also understand why some folks have brought up my past criticism of Julie as reasons to bash me again, however that it in the past and my relationship with the department is solid.

It deeply hurts me to have my name dragged through this. You guys can think what you want. I've been a long time member of this board and value getting the news that Bobby, Shawn and John work to supply. But for the first time I'm seriously considering asking John to cancel my membership.

It's just not worth watching my passion for Rutgers getting dragged through the mud. Especially for something that is grossly untrue.

If anyone wants to confront me directly my email address is widely available.
 
So this is how your reputation gets destroyed.

No, I didn't make the hire. I have no such influence. Whoever told anyone that is crazy.

I personally have given much more than $30k over the years to RVision in memory of my dad. Given my radio and TV background I thought it would be a great way to honor him.

Most of that money is earmarked to a full-time videographer position and equipment. When I promoted the fundraiser last year it was as a fan who thought he could use his donation to raise more money that Colin and he staff needed and still needs. I'm actually scheduled for a call tomorrow with Rutgers staff to discuss this year's needs.

I totally understand why some feel the way they do about Macy's hire. I also understand why some folks have brought up my past criticism of Julie as reasons to bash me again, however that it in the past and my relationship with the department is solid.

It deeply hurts me to have my name dragged through this. You guys can think what you want. I've been a long time member of this board and value getting the news that Bobby, Shawn and John work to supply. But for the first time I'm seriously considering asking John to cancel my membership.

It's just not worth watching my passion for Rutgers getting dragged through the mud. Especially for something that is grossly untrue.

If anyone wants to confront me directly my email address is widely available.

Respectfully, if this was posted the other night, rather than you engaging in a Twitter war like a teenager, perhaps we're not sitting here right now.

And from my perspective, the overarching point remains.

1. Why does ANYONE other than a RU student/grad hold this position?

2. If the POOR decision to go outside of RU is inevitable, who vetted this potential hire's social media?

It's ANOTHER sign of RU's tone deaf handling of things--regardless of who was responsible. Anyone involved with the department for 30 seconds SHOULD know that the diehard portion of the fanbase is not interested in giving a PSU alum a shot in an ultra competitive industry...and oh by the way, that shot is 40 miles from the media capital of the world? Doesn't fly here...nor should it.
 
certainly nobody cares she openly rooted for PSU to beat Rutgers while she was a student there....right?

Of course not.

And if we jump in our time machine with a smart phone and you tweeted out a pic from Shea, saying #help #MetsSuck #Pirates4Ever would you expect to be embraced by Mets fans if you ultimately joined the Mets?

There are 110+ D1 football programs in America. I suspect nearly all of them have digital content. If you wanna be a smart ass and Tweet negatively about RU, go work at one of the other 109.

I can assure you that students in the normal job market are CONSTANTLY advised to scrub their social media before going on the job market. Only at RU is a person hired with questionable social media content--and that content happens to be negative to RU.

Which obviously begs ALL SORTS of questions about how THIS particular applicant happened upon THIS PARTICULAR opportunity.

Which, ya know, is sorta the point of these threads.
 
Of course not.

And if we jump in our time machine with a smart phone and you tweeted out a pic from Shea, saying #help #MetsSuck #Pirates4Ever would you expect to be embraced by Mets fans if you ultimately joined the Mets?

There are 110+ D1 football programs in America. I suspect nearly all of them have digital content. If you wanna be a smart ass and Tweet negatively about RU, go work at one of the other 109.

I can assure you that students in the normal job market are CONSTANTLY advised to scrub their social media before going on the job market. Only at RU is a person hired with questionable social media content--and that content happens to be negative to RU.

Which obviously begs ALL SORTS of questions about how THIS particular applicant happened upon THIS PARTICULAR opportunity.

Which, ya know, is sorta the point of these threads.

Pretty much this.

And while I appreciate Jon's input, we're now left with something of an even bigger mystery thanks to his statements.

Because now it seems that nobody knows who hired this individual. AD's office doesn't know. RVision's largest benefactor doesn't know.

I can't find any historical record of the job posting - and Rutgers, being a state institution, is required to publically post for all positions.

So assuming everyone is telling the truth, we seem to be sitting in the middle of yet another example of "shit got all blown up because no one is accountable".

Which, I firmly believe, is how RU as an institution winds up looking so frequently tone deaf in the first place.
 
Of course not.

And if we jump in our time machine with a smart phone and you tweeted out a pic from Shea, saying #help #MetsSuck #Pirates4Ever would you expect to be embraced by Mets fans if you ultimately joined the Mets?

There are 110+ D1 football programs in America. I suspect nearly all of them have digital content. If you wanna be a smart ass and Tweet negatively about RU, go work at one of the other 109.

I can assure you that students in the normal job market are CONSTANTLY advised to scrub their social media before going on the job market. Only at RU is a person hired with questionable social media content--and that content happens to be negative to RU.

Which obviously begs ALL SORTS of questions about how THIS particular applicant happened upon THIS PARTICULAR opportunity.

Which, ya know, is sorta the point of these threads.
Of course not.

And if we jump in our time machine with a smart phone and you tweeted out a pic from Shea, saying #help #MetsSuck #Pirates4Ever would you expect to be embraced by Mets fans if you ultimately joined the Mets?

There are 110+ D1 football programs in America. I suspect nearly all of them have digital content. If you wanna be a smart ass and Tweet negatively about RU, go work at one of the other 109.

I can assure you that students in the normal job market are CONSTANTLY advised to scrub their social media before going on the job market. Only at RU is a person hired with questionable social media content--and that content happens to be negative to RU.

Which obviously begs ALL SORTS of questions about how THIS particular applicant happened upon THIS PARTICULAR opportunity.

Which, ya know, is sorta the point of these threads.
Sorta kinda related years ago I was at an RU event in NYC when an individual approached me and asked if I was interested in a certain RU post graduate degree. Before I could even answer this guy volunteers the fact that he obviously isn't going to be able to compete with certain schools in the area being "that it's Rutgers" so it's not an easy job for him. I asked him where he went for his masters, if he had gone to these supposedly superior options. Nope - if memory serves he didnt have a masters. I asked where he went to undergrad. He said another school. I asked him does he even like Rutgers. "It's a job man."

Still shake my head at that.
 
I love how everyone is denying that they are responsible for hiring this girl. There's gotta be some way to figure that out, right? Who is her boss? I'm assuming that's the responsible person.
 
I love how everyone is denying that they are responsible for hiring this girl. There's gotta be some way to figure that out, right? Who is her boss? I'm assuming that's the responsible person.

I think if one spends bout 10 minutes thinking it over, it's pretty obvious how she got connected to RVision.

Just look for the commonalities, grasshopper.
 
I love how everyone is denying that they are responsible for hiring this girl. There's gotta be some way to figure that out, right? Who is her boss? I'm assuming that's the responsible person.

It seems that RVision has been operating below the radar, as far as the administration is concerned. Probably nobody really cared, up to this point.

I'm getting the sense that's going to change pretty quickly. There is an overwhelming sentiment in support of the notion that RVision talent should come from within the RU student community and that the operation, in general, should be wholly internal.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT