Who do you want us to be?

[RUGT]

Well that's kinda the problem.

It's patently silly to have faith in the belief that somebody else has a plan that you don't know about and can't articulate.

That's the definition of Santa Claus.

As opposed to what, the logically sound and bullet-proof arguments that all boil down to 'Barchi, Hermann, and Rutgers are all incompetent'?

The situation and financials have changed. I think my scenario is significantly more likely to happen than others who think we will sit on our hands. Time will tell I guess.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

As opposed to what, the logically sound and bullet-proof arguments that all boil down to 'Barchi, Hermann, and Rutgers are all incompetent'?

The situation and financials have changed. I think my scenario is significantly more likely to happen than others who think we will sit on our hands. Time will tell I guess.

Not to break your stones, as the conversation has come back to a generally positive give and take, but the financials WILL change. As of now, they have't changed all that much. The deficits have improved. But the guy in charge wants revenue neutral--which really means he wants the AD to operate at worst at break even. That mindset has stuck us with Elmer. We have a women's hoops program which bleeds money like a severed artery. Basketball is trending up, but is still sucking wind. Football shows a modest profit, but the debt service on the stadium is shifted out of the department.

Long story longer, that extra $2MM you want to spend needs to be raised privately. If history is an indicator, we've failed at that in the past. I won't continue to try and persuade you from believing it will change. But I have my doubts.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

There are some excellent points brought up here by ruhudson and a couple of others

This is a 100 year move being in the big ten...we are in year 2

We have 2 or 3 generstions of tradition to catch up to.

It can be done...breaking in the establishment
Oregon is an example...
Miami is an example....
Virginia tech is an example

This is why I have been ranting here for the last 3 years

When we got the invite for the big ten in November of 2012...I said we must begin the work now...not wait and figure it out after we waste out honeymoon period

Guess what...we wasted out honeymoon period.

We need a guy like Schiano...if not Greg...who HAS coached and seen it done elsewhere and knows what needs to be done...and can get it done.

and get an AD who will go to town with him (like Greg)

This is a 20 year process and having a guyike Greg who is here for the long term to build it.

We have a lot of natural resources and advantages that the right coaches can leverage until the hard infrastructure follows

I have said that the one thing we should be spending top money on is coaches and staff. We can't afford the $500 to $800 million in facilities to catch us up to ohio state, penn state , or Michigan in one day...that is a generation of work

But we can afford and should be spending top dollar (and maybe paying above market prices) to compensate with the best staff and coaches we can buy to compensate

That we can afford. Mkre and more each year as the big money comes to full share

 

[Scarlet Shack]

I want to be a top half of the big ten program. We can be.

In hoops...that means being in the NCAA two out of every four years...and capable of making a NCAA run once every five years

In football...that means regular bowl games...and being a serious league contender once every four years and getting to the BCS type games once a or twice decade...a holiday, citrus and outback each once a decade. And mid level games the rest of the time

 

[e5fdny]

First, all this talk about Phil Knight really proves our point more than disproves it. If Rutgers were to have a guy donate all that money, it would be awesome, and yes - it would make a material difference in the trajectory of the program.

But Phil is no "fly by Knight" donor. He didn't donate the $230 million all at once. He is credited with having donated $230 million prior to his induction into the Oregon Sports Hall of Fame. He's since donated another $70 million. He's also donated more than $100 million to Stanford's GSB.

Right now, we don't have a Phil Knight. We don't even have a Ted Knight. Because among the things we know is that Rutgers alumni have a minimized allegiance to the school as compared to other "top 10" programs, our donations don't even come close to comparing to the OSUs and UMs of the world and there is a LOT of work that needs to be done to effect a massive cultural change in order to get Big 10-caliber donations out of the people we do have, now and going forward.

We're talking around each other here. What @ruhudsonfan and I have been saying is that for Rutgers to become a top program, as some in this thread insist we can be, there needs to be an incredible - dare I say "unprecedented" paradigm shift vis a vis alumni giving, along with the various other elements of the support structure required to be a National Championship kind of program.

And my reply is still the same...never is a strong word.

For all intents and purposes when you think about we're really only +/- 60yrs old as a school and even younger when it comes to Athletics...MUCH younger.

The time before 1956 doesn't seem to be registering anything other than a good commercial.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

Ruhudson

Clearly...something has to give for us

We are going to find out if there is a donor will and if there is flexibility on the institutional level to get the right football coach

The next three to four monhs are critical

I would normally write us off as done...but there are some strong people who can make the policy happen in the mix now

And, the recent bad PR may just be the necessary evil to force those wanting to cheap out and stay the course to have to change their tune and do what needs to be done

 

[Ru2bnj]

I have no interest and it is fantasy to think RU should try to become OSU. It's not happening, the institution and the state would not tolerate it. In fact, I think you would see many more occurances of what happened over the past few weeks repeating if there was an effort to become a football factory type program. I've always felt what Alvarez accomplished at Wisconsin is a very good model for RU to emulate. They've become very successful without totally selling their soul. Iowa is also a good model. Because of the culture and state we live in , it is imperative that RU do things the right way as much as possible. I've been saying ..I can deal with 4 or 5 win seasons, I can't deal with all of this negative off field nonsense and stupidity.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

And my reply is still the same...never is a strong word.

For all intents and purposes when you think about we're really only +/- 60yrs old as a school and even younger when it comes to Athletics...MUCH younger.

The time before 1956 doesn't seem to be registering anything other than a good commercial.

That makes playing catch up all the more difficult.

Here is an exercise that a certain goofy looking, pedophile hiding, white sock wearing football coach told me on a stop into SPP back in the olden days.

"Look son, if you take the UP Poll (this was 1990 so the UPI poll was still a "thing") and flip to any random week, 5, 10, 15, 25 years ago, 12-15 of the programs will always be the same. We're one of those programs. Do you want to play for one of those programs or not?"

I've attached the UPI poll for your reading pleasure...lol

MSU, Notre Dame, Ga Tech, FSU, OK, TAMU, USC, Auburn, Clemson, Tennesse, BYU

The old man might have supported a kid toucher, but he wasn't wrong. The rankings are entrenched for a reason

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_NCAA_Division_I-A_football_season

http://collegefootball.ap.org/poll

 

[e5fdny]

That makes playing catch up all the more difficult.

Here is an exercise that a certain goofy looking, pedophile hiding, white sock wearing football coach told me on a stop into SPP back in the olden days.

"Look son, if you take the UP Poll (this was 1990 so the UPI poll was still a "thing") and flip to any random week, 5, 10, 15, 25 years ago, 12-15 of the programs will always be the same. We're one of those programs. Do you want to play for one of those programs or not?"

I've attached the UPI poll for your reading pleasure...lol

MSU, Notre Dame, Ga Tech, FSU, OK, TAMU, USC, Auburn, Clemson, Tennesse, BYU

The old man might have supported a kid toucher, but he wasn't wrong. The rankings are entrenched for a reason

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_NCAA_Division_I-A_football_season

http://collegefootball.ap.org/poll

Of course it makes it more difficult. This is Rutgers, remember? LOL

Again, and I'll use the word too...NEVER said it was going to be easy but silly to think we can't someday reach the level of Hayden's Iowa and evolve into Alvarez's Wisky on and off the field.

THAT IMO could happen in spite of Trenton if we get the right person in charge of the school and in turn the right people in charge of Athletics (coaches, administrators, etc).

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Of course it makes it more difficult. This is Rutgers, remember? LOL

Again, and I'll use the word too...NEVER said it was going to be easy but silly to think we can't someday reach the level of Hayden's Iowa and evolve into Alvarez's Wisky on and off the field.

THAT IMO could happen in spite of Trenton if we get the right person in charge of the school and in turn the right people in charge of Athletics (coaches, administrators, etc).

Which again, wasn't where this argument started. The OP suggested Iowa and was shouted down as an underachieving, small minded loser, which is ironic if you knew him personally, but I digress.

I think Iowa and Wisky are achievable. But I also think Wisky is a ceiling. I think a Top 30ish football and mens basketball program is the high water mark. Some years you get hot and overachieve. Other years, things go wrong and you finish outside that.

My bone of contention was with perennial Top 10 programs. We would have to undergo a sea changing paradigm shift for that to happen. And the best anyone has offered up is "hire the right coach." Uhhh, ok

 

[RU31trap]

I have no interest and it is fantasy to think RU should try to become OSU. It's not happening, the institution and the state would not tolerate it. In fact, I think you would see many more occurances of what happened over the past few weeks repeating if there was an effort to become a football factory type program. I've always felt what Alvarez accomplished at Wisconsin is a very good model for RU to emulate. They've become very successful without totally selling their soul. Iowa is also a good model. Because of the culture and state we live in , it is imperative that RU do things the right way as much as possible. I've been saying ..I can deal with 4 or 5 win seasons, I can't deal with all of this negative off field nonsense and stupidity.

. Unfortunately when you say the institution and state won't tolerate a OSU your basically saying we participate in a conference without ever having the intention of winning at the highest level. Then I ask what's the point of playing? If you don't strive to be the best you're basically a sparring partner at best. Seriously, if you can't be the best why play? I bet Wisconsin, Northwestern, Stanford fans believe they can win a National Championship at the beginning of every season. However, I do agree with you the institution and the state would make sure we never win a national championship.

 

[e5fdny]

Which again, wasn't where this argument started. The OP suggested Iowa and was shouted down as an underachieving, small minded loser, which is ironic if you knew him personally, but I digress.

I think Iowa and Wisky are achievable. But I also think Wisky is a ceiling. I think a Top 30ish football and mens basketball program is the high water mark. Some years you get hot and overachieve. Other years, things go wrong and you finish outside that.

My bone of contention was with perennial Top 10 programs. We would have to undergo a sea changing paradigm shift for that to happen. And the best anyone has offered up is "hire the right coach." Uhhh, ok

We are in agreement.

And would love to be able to leave some fingerprints on that ceiling.

 

[LandingLane]

all the coaching search talk got me thinking "what do we really want this program to be"? More importantly "what do you think it could actually become" personally, I would be ecstatic to become Iowa. 7-9 wins a year with the occasional 10 and 4 win seasons. To me, people who think we will ever become some NC contender year in and year out are crazy. NJ's culture simply isn't willing to accept what it takes. Thoughts?

VA Tech-like. Winning seasons, bowl games and the occasional top 15 finish. I don't think I'm shooting too high.

 

[RUGT]

My bone of contention was with perennial Top 10 programs. We would have to undergo a sea changing paradigm shift for that to happen. And the best anyone has offered up is "hire the right coach." Uhhh, ok

You are misconstruing my point. Find me anywhere where I or anyone else said we could become a consistently top 10 program with just the right coach.

What I am saying is that the right coach will get us 90% of the way there, probably to the Wisconsin level. What you are not recognizing is that the constraints which keep schools like Wisconsin, Nebraska, and Iowa from climbing higher are not present at Rutgers. We would still have room to grow even once we hit the Wisconsin level. That 'sea of changing paradigm shift' won't be nearly as difficult once we get to that level, but there are intermittent steps that we must get to.

So again, you are saying it is impossible to get to Z from A while glossing over B through Y. Z won't look nearly as distant once we are at Q (which we can get at with just a good coach) and our inherent advantages can allow us to further continue unlike other schools who may already be at Q but are capped.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

You are misconstruing my point. Find me anywhere where I or anyone else said we could become a consistently top 10 program with just the right coach.

What I am saying is that the right coach will get us 90% of the way there, probably to the Wisconsin level. What you are not recognizing is that the constraints which keep schools like Wisconsin, Nebraska, and Iowa from climbing higher are not present at Rutgers. We would still have room to grow even once we hit the Wisconsin level. That 'sea of changing paradigm shift' won't be nearly as difficult once we get to that level, but there are intermittent steps that we must get to.

So again, you are saying it is impossible to get to Z from A while glossing over B through Y. Z won't look nearly as distant once we are at Q (which we can get at with just a good coach) and our inherent advantages can allow us to further continue unlike other schools who may already be at Q but are capped.

Tell me what "inherent disadvantages" Nebraska football has over Rutgers.

THIS. I. HAVE. TO. HEAR.

 

[rutgersdave]

Everyone brings up major donors to the football program but the donations is a reflection of 30 years of winning football. It's the tradition that Cuse and Pitt talked about that Rutgers does have. If we had 30 years of good football our donations would probably be double. Anyhow, these Top 10 programs will always have more money than us with their 100,000 seat stadiums. 50,000 extra seats X 1,000 season tickets=$50,000,000 more revenue than Rutgers every year. Donation is double just for getting a seat in these stadiums.

Maybe to get the extra 2-3 million for our new coach, I know many don't like it, but we can have two games, Ohio State and Penn state, played at Giant stadium. We do it until our revenue goes ups.

 

[NotInRHouse]

The admin coughed up a lot for GS and still does for CVS, compared to peers.

Barchi is going to be gone sooner than the next coach. I think it is reasonable to think the next coach will get paid competitively.

Ultimately, retaining Flood will cost the AD in tickets, parking, concession and general revenue from games more than the new guy.

 

[RUGT]

Tell me what "inherent disadvantages" Nebraska football has over Rutgers.

THIS. I. HAVE. TO. HEAR.

Sure.

I think it's safe to say that really the only 2 important variables that go into how successful a team will be is coaching ability/acuity and recruiting. Everything else mentioned ITT (legislature, fans, media, etc) are just a means to an end for these two prime factors. Nebraska clearly has significant money, fan support, media, facilities, and government support - all of which certainly allow them to hire great coaches and keep up in the arms race.

And yet all that being said, they will probably never be able to ascend to OSU status in terms of consistent playoff team. Why? Because they will never recruit as well as an OSU or USC due to their location. It is simply a huge detriment to be out in a state like Nebraska when you are trying to attract football recruits, especially when you have no local talent to pull from. They were once top dogs in an era when there was probably more pressure to attend a traditionally good football school to get as much exposure as possible in order to increase your chances to be seen by NFL scouts. However, the rise of the internet and constant sports news/social media has made that no longer a requirement.

Compare this to Rutgers. While I am not going to say NB is some pristine paradise, it certainly is not a negative and makes it much easier to attract talent from other places. We are also in a very talent rich state with no immediate competition. As we get better, it will become much easier to turn to a kid and say "Why go to PSU/UM/OSU when you can rep NJ in front of 80k fans?". We could probably fill 80% of our roster any given year with NJ/West PA/NYC/Delaware/Maryland recruits - that's the benefit of living in one of the most densely populated places in the US.

So that's really the biggest inherent advantage we have over Nebraska. Nebraska is clearly miles ahead of us right now, but they have (IMO) reached their peak. If we were to ever reach their level, we would be able to continue progressing because recruiting wouldn't be an issue.

 

[RU4Real]

Now might be a time to remind our younger viewers that once upon a time Barry Alvarez was on our shortest of short lists for the head coaching job.

We hired Dick Anderson instead.

Because, ya know... winning culture.

 

[e5fdny]

Now might be a time to remind our younger viewers that once upon a time Barry Alvarez was on our shortest of short lists for the head coaching job.

We hired Dick Anderson instead.

Because, ya know... winning culture.

I see what you're saying but it probably would have ended the same if Barry got the same type of support Dick got during his tenure.

 

[RU4Real]

I see what you're saying but it probably would have ended the same if Barry got the same type of support Dick got during his tenure.

But wait... I thought a "great coach is 90%" of the solution. Somebody said that in one of these two threads.

Folks need to make up their minds, cap'n.

 

[brgossRU90]

It starts with a great coach more than anything. Does Boise state have elite facilities? Fertile local recruiting? What about west virginia? There are lots of examples in college football of programs with few inherent strengths that are succeeding, and it always starts with a great coach. Without that everything else is meaningless.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Is 4Real still an EMT? Cause I need my heart restarted after reading that Nebraska can't recruit with OSU or USC.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Fertile local recruiting is one of the new biggest lies in the history of the interwebz. There is no bigger myth than "RU has an inherent advantage of great local recruiting grounds."

Newsflash...Top 10 programs transcend "great local recruiting grounds." Why? Cause they can.

 

[bac2therac]

Which again, wasn't where this argument started. The OP suggested Iowa and was shouted down as an underachieving, small minded loser, which is ironic if you knew him personally, but I digress.

I think Iowa and Wisky are achievable. But I also think Wisky is a ceiling. I think a Top 30ish football and mens basketball program is the high water mark. Some years you get hot and overachieve. Other years, things go wrong and you finish outside that.

My bone of contention was with perennial Top 10 programs. We would have to undergo a sea changing paradigm shift for that to happen. And the best anyone has offered up is "hire the right coach." Uhhh, ok

wow there so many posts in this thread that I don't have the time to read but I will start here. Yes Iowa and occasionally Wisky is where we probably want the program to aspire to.

I do not think we can win league titles in the Big 10 just as half of the Big 10 schools cannot. Competing with factories like Michigan, Michigan State Ohio State and Penn State is not happening. These schools have decades of histories and pageantry and sparkling facilities with large fanbase. They dwarf RU. Its part of the reason why I felt RU got screwed by getting put in to the tougher division..yet some feel they are balanced..no they aren't not at all. 4 of the 5 biggest programs in college football are all on one side. RU isn't going to bust the door down on them but we can be Iowa and a Wisconisn on a really outstanding year. Nothing wrong with that but I think our fanbase and NJ thinks we should be competing for championships

 

[e5fdny]

But wait... I thought a "great coach is 90%" of the solution. Somebody said that in one of these two threads.

Folks need to make up their minds, cap'n.

Well if and when we get that other 10% we'll see. LOL

(and by this reply I am in NO WAY inferring we already have the other 90% - lol)

 

[RUScrew85]

Is 4Real still an EMT? Cause I need my heart restarted after reading that Nebraska can't recruit with OSU or USC.

Yeah but I hear he starts his treatment by taking your temperature rectally. All the time.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

wow there so many posts in this thread that I don't have the time to read but I will start here. Yes Iowa and occasionally Wisky is where we probably want the program to aspire to.

I do not think we can win league titles in the Big 10 just as half of the Big 10 schools cannot. Competing with factories like Michigan, Michigan State Ohio State and Penn State is not happening. These schools have decades of histories and pageantry and sparkling facilities with large fanbase. They dwarf RU. Its part of the reason why I felt RU got screwed by getting put in to the tougher division..yet some feel they are balanced..no they aren't not at all. 4 of the 5 biggest programs in college football are all on one side. RU isn't going to bust the door down on them but we can be Iowa and a Wisconisn on a really outstanding year. Nothing wrong with that but I think our fanbase and NJ thinks we should be competing for championships

Well, what your skimming of the thread is leaving out is the contention that "only losers with self loathing, self defeatist attitudes" would aspire to be Iowa or Wisky, rather than OSU, Alabama and Oregon.

We've also established that a willing state legislature is overrated. The media being a cheerleader, rather than using every opportunity to tear us down, really doesn't matter. Oh, cultivating a deep pocketed donor base is also not really THAT important. RU football has several inherent advantages over the likes of Michigan State, Nebraska and Wisconsin.

And the right coaching hire can get us from A to about Q, at which point we will be within pissign distance of Z and THAT'S when all the bog donors will want to be part of something special and will come in with a hundred million to push over the top. We will then be a Top 10 team for the next 1,000 years. If you listen closely, you can hear them shredding the ticker tape as we speak...

So, in a nutshell, this next coaching hire is pretty important. Although there is no plan on paying for the extra $2MM or so the coach and his staff will cost.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Yeah but I hear he starts his treatment by taking your temperature rectally. All the time.

As long as he uses a thermometer and not, ummmm, well, ummmm

 

[e5fdny]

As long as he uses a thermometer and not, ummmm, well, ummmm

You know...it's not fair that you get all the good lines. Some of do have to step away to help with the homework from time to time.

 

[brgossRU90]

You definitely lose credibility when you say nebraska can't recruit at the level of osu or USC and succeed on the field like those programs. They already have, for decades.

 

[RUGT]

Fertile local recruiting is one of the new biggest lies in the history of the interwebz. There is no bigger myth than "RU has an inherent advantage of great local recruiting grounds."

Newsflash...Top 10 programs transcend "great local recruiting grounds." Why? Cause they can.

Outside ND (which is truly the exception), which team doesn't exist in and exploit their local recruiting ground?

Of course top 10 teams can recruit everywhere, but they have a base in a talent rich area to start from. Look at any top 10 school right now and I will bet the vast majority of them have the largest percentage of players from their state than anywhere else.

 

[e5fdny]

Outside ND (which is truly the exception), which team doesn't exist in and exploit their local recruiting ground?

Of course top 10 teams can recruit everywhere, but they have a base in a talent rich area to start from. Look at any top 10 school right now and I will bet the vast majority of them have the largest percentage of players from their state than anywhere else.

And even ND has quite a few from Indiana this year I think?

I know I saw a graphic showing that somewhere recently.

 

[RUScrew85]

As long as he uses a thermometer and not, ummmm, well, ummmm

I'll bet one of you will be making that sound.

 

[RUScrew85]

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[RU4Real]

Ya know, one quick text message to your wife and you're grounded. Just sayin'.

 

[RUGT]

You definitely lose credibility when you say nebraska can't recruit at the level of osu or USC and succeed on the field like those programs. They already have, for decades.

I already addressed why I believe their previous success will not be replicated again. As to recruiting, if you don't believe me, here are rivals numbers:

2008
Nebraska 30 OSU 4 USC 8

2009
Nebraska 28 OSU 3 USC 4

2010
Nebraska 22 OSU 25 USC 1

2011
Nebraska 15 OSU 11 USC 4

2012
Nebraska 25 OSU 4 USC 8

2013
Nebraska 17 OSU 2 USC 13

2014
Nebraska 32 OSU 3 USC 10

So Nebraska only edged one of them barely one year in 2010. Otherwise, OSU and USC have had considerably better recruiting classes despite Nebraska having the same coach for the entire time. Also worth noting that in 2012 and 2013 USC was ranked that high despite only having 15 and 12(!) recruits for their class. Rivals takes the points from your top 20 recruits, so USC beat nebraska despite having 5 and 8 fewer players counting towards their point totals.

So yeah, they cannot recruit the level of USC or OSU or any of the other top recruiting teams. In fact if you look at the list, many of the top teams were barely better or even worse than Nebraska this past decade (e.g Tennessee, Georgia, etc).

 

[RUScrew85]

Outside ND (which is truly the exception), which team doesn't exist in and exploit their local recruiting ground?

Of course top 10 teams can recruit everywhere, but they have a base in a talent rich area to start from. Look at any top 10 school right now and I will bet the vast majority of them have the largest percentage of players from their state than anywhere else.

Yeah but we don't really have that base. The talent is there but the better it is the less they want to stay home for the most part. (Shitty State Support)

 

[RUScrew85]

Ya know, one quick text message to your wife and you're grounded. Just sayin'.

Sorry. :(

 

[RUGT]

Yeah but we don't really have that base. The talent is there but the better it is the less they want to stay home for the most part. (Shitty State Support)

Right but as I said that recruit sentiment begins to diminish the further along we come as a program. It's much harder now for us to ask a recruit to rep NJ when they could go to a school with 100k stadiums and massive fan support than it will be when we have a ~75k stadium and larger fan base (which will happen WAY before we enter the discussion of a perennial top 10 team).