US News "Americas Best Graduate Schools" 2023-2024 to be released 4/25/23.

[Panthergrowl13]

US News Top Law School Rankings were to be released early but they delayed the release and will publish the full list on the 25.

However, they did publish the Top 15 Best Research Medical Schools using their new criteria.

US News Top 15 Research Medical Schools 2023-2024:

#1 Johns Hopkins University
#2 University of Pennsylvania
#3 Harvard University
#4 University of California (SF)
#4 Washington University (St Louis) (tie)
#6 Columbia University
#7 Stanford University
#7 Yale University (tie)
#9 Duke University
#9 University of Michigan (tie)
#11 University of Pittsburgh
#12 Northwestern University
#13 New York University
#14 Cornell University
#14 Mayo Clinic School of Medicine (tie)

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[sct1111]

Sir this is a Rutgers forum

 

[Panthergrowl13]

Sir, the US News 2023-2024 "America's Best Graduate Programs" have been released so you can now discuss how Rutgers Ranked in any program you would want to comment on (Medicine, Pharmacy, Law, Engineering etc.).

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[retired711]

Have they actually released the law school rankings? As of a month ago, they were "indefinitely delayed."

 

[Panthergrowl13]

Have they actually released the law school rankings? As of a month ago, they were "indefinitely delayed."

US News "Americas Best Graduate Schools" 2024 have released all program rankings.

Rutgers Law School (Newark and Camden) are Ranked #86 and #15 in Part Time Law.

Rutgers Law also has Specialty Rankings which are listed below:

#69 Business/Corporate Law
#54 Constitutional LAW
#84 Contracts/Commercial Law
#39 Criminal Law
#84 Dispute Resolution
#80 Environmental Law
# 8 Health Care Law
# 8 Clinical Training
#13 Legal Writing
#79 Intellectual Property Law
#67 Tax Law
#49 Trial Advocacy

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[NotInRHouse]

US News "Americas Best Graduate Schools" 2024 have released all program rankings.

Rutgers Law School (Newark and Camden) are Ranked #86 and #15 in Part Time Law.

Rutgers Law also has Specialty Rankings which are listed below:

#69 Business/Corporate Law
#54 Constitutional LAW
#84 Contracts/Commercial Law
#39 Criminal Law
#84 Dispute Resolution
#80 Environmental Law
# 8 Health Care Law
# 8 Clinical Training
#13 Legal Writing
#79 Intellectual Property Law
#67 Tax Law
#49 Trial Advocacy

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

Where do you see this? I thought the re-release is tomorrow

 

[Leonard23]

US News "Americas Best Graduate Schools" 2024 have released all program rankings.

Rutgers Law School (Newark and Camden) are Ranked #86 and #15 in Part Time Law.

Rutgers Law also has Specialty Rankings which are listed below:

#69 Business/Corporate Law
#54 Constitutional LAW
#84 Contracts/Commercial Law
#39 Criminal Law
#84 Dispute Resolution
#80 Environmental Law
# 8 Health Care Law
# 8 Clinical Training
#13 Legal Writing
#79 Intellectual Property Law
#67 Tax Law
#49 Trial Advocacy

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

Aren't those still 2023 rankings, unless you have some special early access to 2024?

 

[Panthergrowl13]

Where do you see this? I thought the re-release is tomorrow

You are correct.

The results reported are the 2023 rankings.

Tomorrow you will be able to compare if Rutgers Law improved in the newest rankings.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[Leonard23]

2023-24 U.S. News Law School Rankings: This Year vs. Last Year (+/-) | Spivey Consulting

Admissions, Consulting, and Preparation for Law School. Our mission is to help clients get admitted to their dream school.

www.spiveyconsulting.com

Rutgers Law plummeted 23 more spots to #109. If the university doesn't really care about its law school, then maybe it's time to shut it down. I get the new ranking formula is wild and likely to be changed but this is truly unacceptable.

 

[Leonard23]

Local, B1G and ACC rankings (+/- from last year)

(1) Yale University (0)
(4) University of Pennsylvania (Carey) (+2)
(5) New York University (+2)
(8) Columbia University (-4)
(10) Northwestern University (Pritzker) (+3)
(10) University of Michigan--Ann Arbor (0)
(13) Cornell University (-1)
(15) Georgetown University (-1)
(16) University of Minnesota (+5)
(22) University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill (+1)
(22) Wake Forest University (+15)
(22) Ohio State University (Moritz) (+8)
(27) University of Notre Dame (-2)
(27) Boston University (-10)
(29) Boston College (+8)
(29) Fordham University (+8)
(40) University of Wisconsin--Madison (+3)
(43) University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign (-8)
(43) Villanova University (Widger) (+13)
(45) Indiana University--Bloomington (Maurer) (-2)
(51) University of Maryland (Carey) (-4)
(54) Temple University (Beasley) (+9)
(56) Seton Hall University (+17)
(60) St. John's University (+24)
(69) Yeshiva University (Cardozo) (-17)
(71) University of Connecticut (-7)
(71) University of Miami (+2)
(71) Northeastern University (+2)
(80) Drexel University (Kline) (-2)
(80) Pennsylvania State University--University Park (-16)
(89) American University (Washington) (-16)
(89) University of Nebraska--Lincoln (-11)
(89) Duquesne University (Kline) (+40)
(89) University of Pittsburgh (-11)
(89) Pennsylvania State University Dickinson Law (-31)
(105) Albany Law School (+17)
(109) Rutgers University (-23)
(111) Michigan State University (-20)
(111) Brooklyn Law School (-13)
(122) The Catholic University of America (-28)
(122) Syracuse University (-19)
(125) New York Law School (+4)
(125) University at Buffalo--SUNY (-31)
(131) Pace University (Haub) (+11)
(140) Hofstra University (Deane) (-22)
(154) CUNY School of Law (-21)
(167) Touro College (Fuchsberg) (previously unranked)

 

[retired711]

2023-24 U.S. News Law School Rankings: This Year vs. Last Year (+/-) | Spivey Consulting

Admissions, Consulting, and Preparation for Law School. Our mission is to help clients get admitted to their dream school.

www.spiveyconsulting.com

Rutgers Law plummeted 23 more spots to #109. If the university doesn't really care about its law school, then maybe it's time to shut it down. I get the new ranking formula is wild and likely to be changed but this is truly unacceptable.

Rutgers just hired a new law dean. Until now, the merged law school has had separate "co-deans" at Camden and Newark. The hope is that having a single dean will make things better. I don't know if it will, but it probably can't hurt.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Local, B1G and ACC rankings (+/- from last year)

(1) Yale University (0)
(4) University of Pennsylvania (Carey) (+2)
(5) New York University (+2)
(8) Columbia University (-4)
(10) Northwestern University (Pritzker) (+3)
(10) University of Michigan--Ann Arbor (0)
(13) Cornell University (-1)
(15) Georgetown University (-1)
(16) University of Minnesota (+5)
(22) University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill (+1)
(22) Wake Forest University (+15)
(22) Ohio State University (Moritz) (+8)
(27) University of Notre Dame (-2)
(27) Boston University (-10)
(29) Boston College (+8)
(29) Fordham University (+8)
(40) University of Wisconsin--Madison (+3)
(43) University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign (-8)
(43) Villanova University (Widger) (+13)
(45) Indiana University--Bloomington (Maurer) (-2)
(51) University of Maryland (Carey) (-4)
(54) Temple University (Beasley) (+9)
(56) Seton Hall University (+17)
(60) St. John's University (+24)
(69) Yeshiva University (Cardozo) (-17)
(71) University of Connecticut (-7)
(71) University of Miami (+2)
(71) Northeastern University (+2)
(80) Drexel University (Kline) (-2)
(80) Pennsylvania State University--University Park (-16)
(89) American University (Washington) (-16)
(89) University of Nebraska--Lincoln (-11)
(89) Duquesne University (Kline) (+40)
(89) University of Pittsburgh (-11)
(89) Pennsylvania State University Dickinson Law (-31)
(105) Albany Law School (+17)
(109) Rutgers University (-23)
(111) Michigan State University (-20)
(111) Brooklyn Law School (-13)
(122) The Catholic University of America (-28)
(122) Syracuse University (-19)
(125) New York Law School (+4)
(125) University at Buffalo--SUNY (-31)
(131) Pace University (Haub) (+11)
(140) Hofstra University (Deane) (-22)
(154) CUNY School of Law (-21)
(167) Touro College (Fuchsberg) (previously unranked)

ABYSMAL for RU. Even my own law school alma mater benefited.

I'm kind of curious how SJU and SHU made such a jump. What changed in the formula?

 

[retired711]

Local, B1G and ACC rankings (+/- from last year)

(1) Yale University (0)
(4) University of Pennsylvania (Carey) (+2)
(5) New York University (+2)
(8) Columbia University (-4)
(10) Northwestern University (Pritzker) (+3)
(10) University of Michigan--Ann Arbor (0)
(13) Cornell University (-1)
(15) Georgetown University (-1)
(16) University of Minnesota (+5)
(22) University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill (+1)
(22) Wake Forest University (+15)
(22) Ohio State University (Moritz) (+8)
(27) University of Notre Dame (-2)
(27) Boston University (-10)
(29) Boston College (+8)
(29) Fordham University (+8)
(40) University of Wisconsin--Madison (+3)
(43) University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign (-8)
(43) Villanova University (Widger) (+13)
(45) Indiana University--Bloomington (Maurer) (-2)
(51) University of Maryland (Carey) (-4)
(54) Temple University (Beasley) (+9)
(56) Seton Hall University (+17)
(60) St. John's University (+24)
(69) Yeshiva University (Cardozo) (-17)
(71) University of Connecticut (-7)
(71) University of Miami (+2)
(71) Northeastern University (+2)
(80) Drexel University (Kline) (-2)
(80) Pennsylvania State University--University Park (-16)
(89) American University (Washington) (-16)
(89) University of Nebraska--Lincoln (-11)
(89) Duquesne University (Kline) (+40)
(89) University of Pittsburgh (-11)
(89) Pennsylvania State University Dickinson Law (-31)
(105) Albany Law School (+17)
(109) Rutgers University (-23)
(111) Michigan State University (-20)
(111) Brooklyn Law School (-13)
(122) The Catholic University of America (-28)
(122) Syracuse University (-19)
(125) New York Law School (+4)
(125) University at Buffalo--SUNY (-31)
(131) Pace University (Haub) (+11)
(140) Hofstra University (Deane) (-22)
(154) CUNY School of Law (-21)
(167) Touro College (Fuchsberg) (previously unranked)

There are a number of big moves here, both up and down. I wonder what Duquesne did, for instance, to jump forty, and what Buffalo did to drop 31. I realize that only a few differences in raw points can make a tremendous difference in raking. As the song goes, "There's something happening here/ What it is ain't exactly clear."

As for Rutgers, I think I finally agree with the argument that Rutgers would be better off closing both law schools and building one in New Brunswick. This is not because there's something wrong with Newark and Camden; rather, it's that Rutgers gives (to be charitable) low priority to anything that's not in New Brunswick.

Note, though, that establishing a law school would be a first for Rutgers; it inherited both the Camden and Newark law schools. So Rutgers would have to care about legal education. Does it? The answer isn't clear. The last master plan document said expressly that the law school ranked poorly in comparison with other Big Ten law schools. But the plan did not utter a word about making them better.

 

[80RU]

SHU law ranked over 50 places above RU law only shows how ridiculous the criteria are. And this is coming from someone who foolishly went to SHU law.

 

[retired711]

There are a number of big moves here, both up and down. I wonder what Duquesne did, for instance, to jump forty, and what Buffalo did to drop 31. I realize that only a few differences in raw points can make a tremendous difference in raking. As the song goes, "There's something happening here/ What it is ain't exactly clear."

As for Rutgers, I think I finally agree with the argument that Rutgers would be better off closing both law schools and building one in New Brunswick. This is not because there's something wrong with Newark and Camden; rather, it's that Rutgers gives (to be charitable) low priority to anything that's not in New Brunswick.

Note, though, that establishing a law school would be a first for Rutgers; it inherited both the Camden and Newark law schools. So Rutgers would have to care about legal education. Does it? The answer isn't clear. The last master plan document said expressly that the law school ranked poorly in comparison with other Big Ten law schools. But the plan did not utter a word about making them better.

Let me add that the law school also has to do a better job of raising money (which in part means giving its students an experience they'll remember as a good one) and of using the resources it's got.

 

[retired711]

SHU law ranked over 50 places above RU law only shows how ridiculous the criteria are. And this is coming from someone who foolishly went to SHU law.

This is *pure* speculation, but I *think* may be that the difference is driven largely by differences in bar passage rates -- Seton Hall, I understand, is much better at getting its students through the first time than Rutgers is.

 

[80RU]

This is *pure* speculation, but I *think* may be that the difference is driven largely by differences in bar passage rates -- Seton Hall, I understand, is much better at getting its students through the first time than Rutgers is.

I don’t believe that is actually the case. But I will see if I can research it.

 

[80RU]

This is *pure* speculation, but I *think* may be that the difference is driven largely by differences in bar passage rates -- Seton Hall, I understand, is much better at getting its students through the first time than Rutgers is.

I stand corrected. Now things have turned and SHU does have a better bar pass rate. I knew things were turning for the worse there, but I did not know to what extent.

 

[retired711]

BTW, I am told that the methodology changed this year to put less emphasis on subjective measures such as reputational surveys and therefore more on hard numbers. That may be why, as the numbers above show, a number of schools had dramatic changes in their rankings.

 

[NotInRHouse]

There are a number of big moves here, both up and down. I wonder what Duquesne did, for instance, to jump forty, and what Buffalo did to drop 31. I realize that only a few differences in raw points can make a tremendous difference in raking. As the song goes, "There's something happening here/ What it is ain't exactly clear."

As for Rutgers, I think I finally agree with the argument that Rutgers would be better off closing both law schools and building one in New Brunswick. This is not because there's something wrong with Newark and Camden; rather, it's that Rutgers gives (to be charitable) low priority to anything that's not in New Brunswick.

Note, though, that establishing a law school would be a first for Rutgers; it inherited both the Camden and Newark law schools. So Rutgers would have to care about legal education. Does it? The answer isn't clear. The last master plan document said expressly that the law school ranked poorly in comparison with other Big Ten law schools. But the plan did not utter a word about making them better.

I believe I saw a number that Marquette jumped from 71 to 34! I wonder if it's because you automatically are admitted to the Wisconsin bar with a JD from there.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I stand corrected. Now things have turned and SHU does have a better bar pass rate. I knew things were turning for the worse there, but I did not know to what extent.

The law school is the crown jewel for SHU. It is by far and away their most prestigious program. And a lot of local schools are like that. It's certainly NYU and Fordham's most prestigious, and it's among if not the most for SJU and Temple.

OTOH, RU like any top 20 public school will have multiple prestigious programs- and we do. But we don't make an effort to have law among them, certainly not to the extent a school like Minnesota has for example.

And you add in the fact that SHU hands out a lot of money, they make a much bigger push for top students and their location is better and building nicer (even within Newark) and you get where we are, plus the formula at USNWR hyping the bar passage (and it's not unfair that they do that).

 

[RUnTeX]

If Rutgers has the institutional will to overcome the status quo (doubtful), at this point relocating the existing programs to NB may be the best way to start anew and chart a future upward trajectory for Rutgers Law. Easier said than done ofc but might just be the bandaid that needs ripping off at this time.

 

[NotInRHouse]

If Rutgers has the institutional will to overcome the status quo (doubtful), at this point relocating the existing programs to NB may be the best way to start anew and chart a future upward trajectory for Rutgers Law. Easier said than done ofc but might just be the bandaid that needs ripping off.

I struggle with the institutional logic of not investing in the law program. RU has not been shy at all in recent years making big investments and got a very generous- deservedly so- package from the state to build new academic facilities.

I was reading NJ is in the top 10 states with a need for lawyers. Why not have an excellent law school on the main campus of the flagship U?

There may be some strung und drang from politicos in Newark and Camden but the local power brokers, in Camden in particular are at a nadir. It would be the perfect time to strike. And the school can absolutely still keep clinic facilities in Newark. I knew people at law school in NY that got clinic credit in NJ. No reason they can't here.

 

[bigmatt718]

Either shut the law school down or consolidate the Camden/Newark law schools and move them to NB.

 

[retired711]

I believe I saw a number that Marquette jumped from 71 to 34! I wonder if it's because you automatically are admitted to the Wisconsin bar with a JD from there.

That seems unlikely because Wisconsin has always had a diploma privilege.U.S. News would have to have drastically increased the weight it puts on bar admission rate for diploma privilege to make such a difference. But there's a way to test your hypothesis: did Wisconsin's law school jump a lot? Its grads also have a diploma privilege. BTW, Wisconsin is the only state left with diploma privilege.

There is at least one Rutgers Law faculty member who argues that NJ should have a diploma privilege for its graduates. But a diploma privilege makes sense only if it's reasonable to think that 95-100% of graduates would pass the bar anyway, and that's clearly not the case for Rutgers.

 

[RUnTeX]

Why not have an excellent law school on the main campus of the flagship U?

Indeed. Besides Rutgers, there is no other law school at a public university in the state afaik.

I wonder if Holloway harbors any desire to see this happen during his tenure. It'll be an uphill battle but perhaps well worth it.

 

[retired711]

Indeed. Besides Rutgers, there is no other law school at a public university in the state afaik.

I wonder if Holloway harbors any desire to see this happen during his tenure. It'll be an uphill battle but perhaps well worth it.

The only law schools in New Jersey are Rutgers and Seton Hall. There are other Big Ten universities with law schools in satellite locations -- like here, it doesn't work well.

I don't know anything about what Holloway thinks. It would cost well over $100 million-- maybe $200 million or more -- to build a law school building. I don't know where the money would come from. There is now a single dean for both Camden and Newark, but I know of nothing that indicates that she would want a New Brunswick law school instead. Nor do I know if political considerations would let Holloway, in effect, kill the Newark and Camden law schools. Holloway is not a lawyer and his background makes me think he considered law school and rejected it,and so legal education may not be something he cares about. But at least he is not a medical doctor like Barchi, and we know what doctors think of lawyers -- and vice versa!

 

[Knight Shift]

Local, B1G and ACC rankings (+/- from last year)

(1) Yale University (0)
(4) University of Pennsylvania (Carey) (+2)
(5) New York University (+2)
(8) Columbia University (-4)
(10) Northwestern University (Pritzker) (+3)
(10) University of Michigan--Ann Arbor (0)
(13) Cornell University (-1)
(15) Georgetown University (-1)
(16) University of Minnesota (+5)
(22) University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill (+1)
(22) Wake Forest University (+15)
(22) Ohio State University (Moritz) (+8)
(27) University of Notre Dame (-2)
(27) Boston University (-10)
(29) Boston College (+8)
(29) Fordham University (+8)
(40) University of Wisconsin--Madison (+3)
(43) University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign (-8)
(43) Villanova University (Widger) (+13)
(45) Indiana University--Bloomington (Maurer) (-2)
(51) University of Maryland (Carey) (-4)
(54) Temple University (Beasley) (+9)
(56) Seton Hall University (+17)
(60) St. John's University (+24)
(69) Yeshiva University (Cardozo) (-17)
(71) University of Connecticut (-7)
(71) University of Miami (+2)
(71) Northeastern University (+2)
(80) Drexel University (Kline) (-2)
(80) Pennsylvania State University--University Park (-16)
(89) American University (Washington) (-16)
(89) University of Nebraska--Lincoln (-11)
(89) Duquesne University (Kline) (+40)
(89) University of Pittsburgh (-11)
(89) Pennsylvania State University Dickinson Law (-31)
(105) Albany Law School (+17)
(109) Rutgers University (-23)
(111) Michigan State University (-20)
(111) Brooklyn Law School (-13)
(122) The Catholic University of America (-28)
(122) Syracuse University (-19)
(125) New York Law School (+4)
(125) University at Buffalo--SUNY (-31)
(131) Pace University (Haub) (+11)
(140) Hofstra University (Deane) (-22)
(154) CUNY School of Law (-21)
(167) Touro College (Fuchsberg) (previously unranked)

In line with RU football rankings

 

[RUnTeX]

The only law schools in New Jersey are Rutgers and Seton Hall. There are other Big Ten universities with law schools in satellite locations -- like here, it doesn't work well.

There is now a single dean for both Camden and Newark, but I know of nothing that indicates that she would want a New Brunswick law school instead.

Interesting to hear some other B1G schools with law in satellite locations have issues.

Maryland and Penn State have satellite locations, with the latter also having their primary(?) one in State College. Did PSU buy the Dickinson one in Carlisle even though they don't have any other presense there?

UMd's is in downtown Baltimore as part of the U of Maryland, Baltimore campus/district. That's also where their medical, dental, and a couple other graduate/professional schools are located.

Looks like Northwestern is actually the other B1G law school not located on its campus (and not elsewhere in the host city of their campus), but is relatively nearby in neighboring Chicago. Doesn't appear to be hurting them anyway.

 

[retired711]

Interesting to hear some other B1G schools with law in satellite locations have issues.

Maryland and Penn State have satellite locations, with the latter also having their primary(?) one in State College. Did PSU buy the Dickinson one in Carlisle even though they don't have any other presense there?

UMd's is in downtown Baltimore as part of the U of Maryland, Baltimore campus/district. That's also where their medical, dental, and a couple other graduate/professional schools are located.

Looks like Northwestern is actually the other B1G law school not located on its campus (and not elsewhere in the host city of their campus), but is relatively nearby in neighboring Chicago. Doesn't appear to be hurting them anyway.

I overstated.

Yes, Northwestern has always had its law school downtown -- not a problem at all. Maryland has its law school in Baltimore -- also not a problem.

Penn State and Michigan State both took over existing law schools -- Dickinson in Penn State's case, Detroit School of Law in Michigan State's case. When Penn State took over Dickinson, it established a law school campus in University Park.The two Penn State law schools currently are independent, but the Penn State president wants to unify them in some fashion. The students at the Dickinson campus in Carlisle want their school to remain independent. It's a mess.

 

[Panthergrowl13]

That seems unlikely because Wisconsin has always had a diploma privilege.U.S. News would have to have drastically increased the weight it puts on bar admission rate for diploma privilege to make such a difference. But there's a way to test your hypothesis: did Wisconsin's law school jump a lot? Its grads also have a diploma privilege. BTW, Wisconsin is the only state left with diploma privilege.

There is at least one Rutgers Law faculty member who argues that NJ should have a diploma privilege for its graduates. But a diploma privilege makes sense only if it's reasonable to think that 95-100% of graduates would pass the bar anyway, and that's clearly not the case for Rutgers.

How would Wisconsin Diploma Privilege work for reciprocity to other states.

If a Wisconsin attorney who had Diploma Privilege to practice Law in Wisconsin (Never took a Bar Exam), would he/she have to take the Bar Exam in NJ if he wanted to practice law in NJ.

Don't some states have full reciprocity agreements with other states minimizing testing/paperwork etc.

Was not aware of the Wisconsin Law Diploma Privilege.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[NotInRHouse]

How would Wisconsin Diploma Privilege work for reciprocity to other states.

If a Wisconsin attorney who had Diploma Privilege to practice Law in Wisconsin (Never took a Bar Exam), would he/she have to take the Bar Exam in NJ if he wanted to practice law in NJ.

Don't some states have full reciprocity agreements with other states minimizing testing/paperwork etc.

Was not aware of the Wisconsin Law Diploma Privilege.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

They would have to retake.

Only some states have reciprocity. NJ does not, but its new bar exam allows you to pass NJ while you do others (versus previously having to sit for a day of NJ essays which were really federal law questions).

PA and NY are part of compacts with a few other states that have reciprocity with 5 years of practice. But as a general rule, states where people may want to retire for the sunshine like CA, HI, TX, and FL are sticklers are do not allow any kind of reciprocity.

 

[NotInRHouse]

That seems unlikely because Wisconsin has always had a diploma privilege.U.S. News would have to have drastically increased the weight it puts on bar admission rate for diploma privilege to make such a difference. But there's a way to test your hypothesis: did Wisconsin's law school jump a lot? Its grads also have a diploma privilege. BTW, Wisconsin is the only state left with diploma privilege.

There is at least one Rutgers Law faculty member who argues that NJ should have a diploma privilege for its graduates. But a diploma privilege makes sense only if it's reasonable to think that 95-100% of graduates would pass the bar anyway, and that's clearly not the case for Rutgers.

I remember thinking the NJ bar was a cakewalk relative to NY. I know they changed it, but I think it was to make easier, which is really something. NY was challenging just because of the breadth of material, and still most pass it on the first go, and they say, true or not, that being a native speaker of English is the biggest predictor of success.

 

[retired711]

I remember thinking the NJ bar was a cakewalk relative to NY. I know they changed it, but I think it was to make easier, which is really something. NY was challenging just because of the breadth of material, and still most pass it on the first go, and they say, true or not, that being a native speaker of English is the biggest predictor of success.

New York law is peculiar in lots of ways, and the New York bar exam required you know those peculiarities. The New Jersey bar was much easier, just as you say. New York has since adopted the Uniform Bar exam (as has New Jersey).

To be honest, the bar exam is very passable provided you (a) study (a lot!) ; (b) have some competence in taking multiple-choice tests; and and c) have some idea how to answer a traditional "issue-spotter" exam question. Remember, it is pass/fail. Those who flunk the bar exam largely come from the bottom quarter of their law school graduating class. The same weaknesses that held them back in law school hold them back on the bar exam.

 

[RU MAN]

2023-24 U.S. News Law School Rankings: This Year vs. Last Year (+/-) | Spivey Consulting

Admissions, Consulting, and Preparation for Law School. Our mission is to help clients get admitted to their dream school.

www.spiveyconsulting.com

Rutgers Law plummeted 23 more spots to #109. If the university doesn't really care about its law school, then maybe it's time to shut it down. I get the new ranking formula is wild and likely to be changed but this is truly unacceptable.

Agree with Leonard. The fact that we're a notch lower than Chapman University, who not too long ago was on probation, is unacceptable. If Rutgers wants to have a top notch law school, which it is capable of having, either move it to New Brunswick or shut it down. Newark is NOT working. Either is Camden. We need a top flight law school on the New Brunswick campus or shut it down!

 

[NotInRHouse]

New York law is peculiar in lots of ways, and the New York bar exam required you know those peculiarities. The New Jersey bar was much easier, just as you say. New York has since adopted the Uniform Bar exam (as has New Jersey).

To be honest, the bar exam is very passable provided you (a) study (a lot!) ; (b) have some competence in taking multiple-choice tests; and and c) have some idea how to answer a traditional "issue-spotter" exam question. Remember, it is pass/fail. Those who flunk the bar exam largely come from the bottom quarter of their law school graduating class. The same weaknesses that held them back in law school hold them back on the bar exam.

That's why they have the LSAT- or SAT for that matter- it tests your ability to take tests.

As unfair as it may seem many if not most professions require some kind of testing. Though I am sure in my lifetime there will be a push to abolish the bar exam, though I don't see it happening.

 

[retired711]

That's why they have the LSAT- or SAT for that matter- it tests your ability to take tests.

As unfair as it may seem many if not most professions require some kind of testing. Though I am sure in my lifetime there will be a push to abolish the bar exam, though I don't see it happening.

I don't think the bar exam is going away. A few jurisdictions waived the bar for those who graduated during the pandemic, but none of those jurisdictions have continued the waiver.

Passing the bar certainly doesn't mean that one will necessarily be a good lawyer. But failing it is strong evidence that one doesn't know basic law and that one is unable to spot the legal issues present in a pretty simple fact pattern. Someone like that shouldn't be practicing law. The bar tests a skill that every lawyer must have.

Failing the bar tends to correlate with having done badly in law school. So the bar exam is not arbitrary in who it flunks.. If law schools had higher standards, then the bar exam wouldn't be necessary. But they don't and so we need the bar as a supplemental way of ensuring that lawyers at least know some law and know how to apply that law to facts.

 

[RU Husky]

Embarrassing. Hard to believe that a law school so well situated in the media- finance- corporate heartland that is the metro area is still struggling to increase its profile.. Like everything else- poor management. Perhaps RU and the state governance actually like it that way.

I graduated RU- Newark Law back in 1981 having completed four years in the evening program thanks to the GI Bill. That did not prevent me from becoming a partner in one of the biggest and most successful law firms in the state.

 

[retired711]

Embarrassing. Hard to believe that a law school so well situated in the media- finance- corporate heartland that is the metro area is still struggling to increase its profile.. Like everything else- poor management. Perhaps RU and the state governance actually like it that way.

I graduated RU- Newark Law back in 1981 having completed four years in the evening program thanks to the GI Bill. That did not prevent me from becoming a partner in one of the biggest and most successful law firms in the state.

There is a very interesting difference between now and then. I don't go quite that far back at Rutgers, but I do remember teaching forty or more students in first-year Property in the evening. But the last time I taught, there were only thirteen, and almost all of those were students intending to transfer to the day program. I understand evening enrollments are down most places. It's not clear why, but I have heard that employers are less willing to subsidize law school than in the past. It's a shame. Teaching at night is of course a hassle, but evening students were a lot more mature and diligent than day students and so they were fun to teach.

 

[80RU]

I don't think the bar exam is going away. A few jurisdictions waived the bar for those who graduated during the pandemic, but none of those jurisdictions have continued the waiver.

Passing the bar certainly doesn't mean that one will necessarily be a good lawyer. But failing it is strong evidence that one doesn't know basic law and that one is unable to spot the legal issues present in a pretty simple fact pattern. Someone like that shouldn't be practicing law. The bar tests a skill that every lawyer must have.

Failing the bar tends to correlate with having done badly in law school. So the bar exam is not arbitrary in who it flunks.. If law schools had higher standards, then the bar exam wouldn't be necessary. But they don't and so we need the bar as a supplemental way of ensuring that lawyers at least know some law and know how to apply that law to facts.

Nothing scientific here, but in my law school class, I saw much less of a correlation between grades and bar passage than I would have expected. But where I knew the scores, those who had high LSATs seemed to pass the bar and to do it with high multi state scores.