6 recruits flip from Western Michigan to Minnesota on P.J. Fleck's first day
- Thread starter BABYBULL24
- Start date
They went 9-4 and won a bowl game we went 2-10, one of those wins was against a FCS team. The OP is just created this thread to bash ASh and Rutgers and nothing more. Period.
Except off the field.
The elephant in the room is what happens with the 10 players who were part of the incident where multiple players and a recruit were drinking and had sex with a student. At Rutgers, we would get raked over the coals and the players would be dismissed from the program. What happens at Minnesota? One coach was dismissed because he backed the players.
Dont change the argument iambazza. I said our recruited talent was similar. If you cannot agree to that then i agree to disagree.
I also agree with Knightshift that if they lose 10 players, like we would have, next year or two maybbe tough sledding for them.
I also agree with Knightshift that if they lose 10 players, like we would have, next year or two maybbe tough sledding for them.
Last edited:
For anyone who wants to do regrading, here are the recommendations of the Minnesota Report:
The EOAA recommended expulsion for five players who did have sexual contact with the victim — Ray Buford, Carlton Djam, KiAnte Hardin, Dior Johnson and Tamarion Johnson; one-year suspensions from the university for Seth Green, Kobe McCrary, Mark Williams and Antoine Winfield Jr., and probation for Antonio Shenault.
Ray Buford 2016 3 Star
Carlton Djam 2016 JUCO
KiAnte Hardin 2015 3 Star
Dior Johnson 2015 3 Star
Tamarion Johnson 2016 3 Star
Seth Green 2016 3 Star Dual Threat QB
Kobe McCrary 2016 3 Star
Mark Williams 2016 2 Star
Antoine Winfield Jr. 2016 2 star
---
The EOAA recommended expulsion for five players who did have sexual contact with the victim — Ray Buford, Carlton Djam, KiAnte Hardin, Dior Johnson and Tamarion Johnson; one-year suspensions from the university for Seth Green, Kobe McCrary, Mark Williams and Antoine Winfield Jr., and probation for Antonio Shenault.
Ray Buford 2016 3 Star
Carlton Djam 2016 JUCO
KiAnte Hardin 2015 3 Star
Dior Johnson 2015 3 Star
Tamarion Johnson 2016 3 Star
Seth Green 2016 3 Star Dual Threat QB
Kobe McCrary 2016 3 Star
Mark Williams 2016 2 Star
Antoine Winfield Jr. 2016 2 star
---
Fleck just took over a 9-4 bowl team...get your head checked
If all you do is star watch then yes....
If you assign anything to player development than you understand we are in 2 very different positions. These are Kids that grow over time...there is learning systems, playing a scheme, physical development... All these things factor in when taking 2-5 star players and working with them. Why do some 2* make the NFL while some 5* dont?
What's is so revisionist about it. He had a freshman AA and some how Dodd was the starter in a new offense. He should have seen the talent he had in front of him and built the team around. Savage. He's in the freakin NFL, and he couldn't play here? That's on RU. Sorry.
The top the East was stronger this year, but the Western Division had better balance. Bottom four teams in the East were not strong at all this year. The West had two craphouse teams, Illinois and Purdue.
I just mentioned some of the points brought up here in other Fleck threads, not sure why it keeps coming up. Frankly, he gets more play here than one would expect for being here a couple years.
Flipping recruits from the MAC to the B10 isn't a sign of anything but common sense exhibited by recruits who jump. Reverse that and then I'll say man those guys are really loyal to Fleck. I see more of leap of loyalty to a coach for the recruits that flipped to us from Pitt when we took some of their staff. WMU to Minnesota not so much.
Minnesota won 9 games this year and was 5-4 in conference and has won 8+ games in 3 out of the last 4 years and was .500 or better in conference in 3 out of the last 4 years. This is as good a situation as a coach could expect jumping from the lower mid major level to the P5, not to mention they're building new facilities. This isn't a typical rebuild when a new coaching hire is made. He should hit the ground running.
Last edited:
Balanced?[laughing] The West sucks, that's why it's balanced. Face it in the next 10 yrs. the West will be lucky to win 1 or 2 B1G championship games. Recruiting is bearing that fact out. Just look at the rankings.
If Tom Savage had spent HALF as much time in the Hale Center studying film or on the practice field with his teammates as he spent laying on the Avalon beach with his girlfriend, he would have been the RU starter for all 4 years at RU.
No, Savage was the starter in the new offense in 2010, even though he didn't deserve it due to his attitude and other issues. After he left RU, 2 journalists confirmed that Dodd outplayed him in pre-season camp, but Schiano was loyal and stuck with him. After he got injured, Dodd took over. And hist attitude then made the situation worse. Hell, a year or two ago Tom himself came out and admitted that what went down was his fault.
Instead he went to Arizona and met his wife. Went to Pitt and learned from the best QB coach in college football ( Paul Chryst), got drafted and is playing in the NFL.
Not as bad as some trying to make the Flips from WMU to Minny look and if these kids had chosen Rutgers you could bet the under the radar label would be put on the 3 with no P-5 offers.
Schmitz :1 P-5 offer (Louie)
Bell: no P-5 offers
Morgan: 2 P-5 offers (Louie & Wake Forrest)
Guthrie: 0 P-5 offers
Hickcox: no P-5 offers
Otomewo: 3 P-5 offers (Illi, Purdue & Iowa St)
I have nothing against PJ and because of his RU connection, hope he does well as the Gopher HC but never beats Rutgers
Schmitz :1 P-5 offer (Louie)
Bell: no P-5 offers
Morgan: 2 P-5 offers (Louie & Wake Forrest)
Guthrie: 0 P-5 offers
Hickcox: no P-5 offers
Otomewo: 3 P-5 offers (Illi, Purdue & Iowa St)
I have nothing against PJ and because of his RU connection, hope he does well as the Gopher HC but never beats Rutgers
You're reaching right now. I understand the off field stuff isn't great. But give it a rest. We were 2-10. We're not on Minnesota's level right now. I like what we're doing though. As for the players being dismissed or not, I'm pretty sure the school will investigate and take the appropriate action. You can't just start dismissing players left and right.
Read ny first post this morning. I basically aaid all of this. We list a lot of players thy coumd hve helped us. Now the shoe is on the other foot.
Iambazza argued they have out recruited us and that just is not true.
No he is not reaching. We lost kids for WAY less this. We had kids who were just at the scene...gone. Even if they dont list anyone we are right there with Minn.
You are the one who wants to regrade our classes, but you want me to give it a rest on 9 players likely not playing next year? I never said anything about being on their level.
Unless I misunderstand it, the 5 players on the recommendation to be dismissed admitted or were identified as being part of the train. The other four were alleged to have videotaped or photographed the sex acts.
Some folks have a way of always looking at RU in the most negative light and looking at every other team in the most positive light. They will likely lose 6--8 players next year over this.
From the Report:
As the result of the investigation completed by EOAA you have been found responsible for violating the University of Minnesota Student Conduct Code, specifically:
Subd. 6. Harm to Person. Harm to person means engaging in conduct that endangers or threatens to endanger the physical and/or mental health, safety, or welfare of another person, including, but not limited to, threatening, stalking, harassing, intimidating, or assaulting behavior.
Subd. 8. Sexual Misconduct. Sexual misconduct means any non-?consensual behavior of a sexual nature that is committed by force or intimidation, or that is otherwise unwelcome. Sexual misconduct includes the following behaviors: sexual assault, relationship violence, stalking, and sexual or gender-based harassment.
Subd. 19. Violation of University Rules. Violation of University rules means engaging in conduct that violates University, collegiate, or deparimental regulations that have been posted or publicized, including provisions contained in University contracts with students. Specifically you were found to have violated the following:
Administrative Policv· Sexual Harassment
Administrative Policy: Sexyal Assault Stalking and Relationship Violence
Subd. 21. Persistent Violations. Persistent Violations means engaging in repeated conduct or action in violation of this Code.
As a result of these violations, you are being offered the following sanctions to resolve this matter informally:
EXPULSION: Effective immediately your University of Minnesota studentship will be ended with resultant loss of all student rights and privileges. A disciplinary hold will be placed on your record. The hold will prevent you from registering at the University and from obtaining your records through routine channels.
As the result of the investigation completed by EOAA you have been found responsible for violating the University of Minnesota Student Conduct Code, specifically:
Subd. 6. Harm to Person. Harm to person means engaging in conduct that endangers or threatens to endanger the physical and/or mental health, safety, or welfare of another person, including, but not limited to, threatening, stalking, harassing, intimidating, or assaulting behavior.
Subd. 8. Sexual Misconduct. Sexual misconduct means any non-?consensual behavior of a sexual nature that is committed by force or intimidation, or that is otherwise unwelcome. Sexual misconduct includes the following behaviors: sexual assault, relationship violence, stalking, and sexual or gender-based harassment.
Subd. 19. Violation of University Rules. Violation of University rules means engaging in conduct that violates University, collegiate, or deparimental regulations that have been posted or publicized, including provisions contained in University contracts with students. Specifically you were found to have violated the following:
Administrative Policv· Sexual Harassment
Administrative Policy: Sexyal Assault Stalking and Relationship Violence
Subd. 21. Persistent Violations. Persistent Violations means engaging in repeated conduct or action in violation of this Code.
As a result of these violations, you are being offered the following sanctions to resolve this matter informally:
EXPULSION: Effective immediately your University of Minnesota studentship will be ended with resultant loss of all student rights and privileges. A disciplinary hold will be placed on your record. The hold will prevent you from registering at the University and from obtaining your records through routine channels.
I believe the West won most of the regular-season meetings between the two divisions this year. Penn State and Ohio State, top-rated teams this year, and Michigan had eight of the East's wins against the West and Michigan. Rest of the East went 2-10 against the West. I'm talking about the past year, not 10 years from now.
How can this not result in Notice of Sanctions? Is sex with a recruit an improper benefit?
""The recruit" refers to a University football recruit who was visiting the University on September 1·2, anp with whom RS had sexual contact in apartment B • We attempted to contact the recruit to gather information for this investigation, but he did not respond. We are not currently investigating the recruit's sexual contact with RS because he is not a current University member."
To boot, the recruit passed on Minnesota:
"RS was taken aback and asked the recruit if he was in high school. The recruit said yes and that he was not going to come to the University because "it was
too f#cked up."
""The recruit" refers to a University football recruit who was visiting the University on September 1·2, anp with whom RS had sexual contact in apartment B • We attempted to contact the recruit to gather information for this investigation, but he did not respond. We are not currently investigating the recruit's sexual contact with RS because he is not a current University member."
To boot, the recruit passed on Minnesota:
"RS was taken aback and asked the recruit if he was in high school. The recruit said yes and that he was not going to come to the University because "it was
too f#cked up."
But that's what we do here.
I have mentioned it numerous times on this board, but Wisonsin RB Corey Clement did far worse that several dismissed players did--he provoked a fight, punched a student in the face, and then lied to police, and only recanted when video evidence showed he started the fight. If he were at Rutgers, he would have been charged with multiple offenses including hindering apprehension and interfering with an investigation of a crime and dismissed. He was held out of one game at Wisconsin.
I laugh when I see PSU fans equating last year at RU to what happened in Happy Valley. For better or for worse, RU does not screw around when it comes to off field bad behavior.
Even beyond the Sandusky mess, look at the number of player arrests during Joe last ten years and the lack of consequences the players faced.
The whole point of regrading a class is judging them by what they do on a field. You can tell me that we have similar recruiting classes, but when a four star DB (barnwell) is ruled ineligible and then gets thrown off the team, it doesn't really matter if he's a four star, three star, or two star. Marquise Ford being a four star DE doesn't really matter right now does it? The reason why I mention the whole regrading is because the only thing that matters is what they did on the field. Great, we have similar recruiting classes as Minny. But we're not just as good as them. Even after the guys are thrown off the team. Neither one of us know what type of depth they have. Judging by the amount of former walk ons that we had starting, I can say with confidence that Minny has probably been out recruiting us.
That's simply manipulating the stats to make your point. You take out our 3 best teams and only focus on the next 4. Those next four still had to play your best teams, but discount the wins from our best teams. Then you manipulate the stats more by saying we'll except Illinois and Purdue, the West was balanced.
I can manipulate the stats as well. The East's 3rd best team by the polls going into the B1G Championship beat the West's best team. So on that fact the East is far more superior to the West. Your teams may seem balanced in your division simply for the fact that the division is weaker and you play more games in the division than crossovers.
6 kids who were going to go to a mid-major, middling directional state school are getting an invite to a free ride at a P5 school 90 mins northwest.
um, okay-- no brainier for those 6.
Meanwhile 94 other guys are sitting in western Michigan wondering what the hell just happened?
um, okay-- no brainier for those 6.
Meanwhile 94 other guys are sitting in western Michigan wondering what the hell just happened?
I still don't understand why you two keep saying we're right there with Minnesota. Yes, they have their off the field problem at the moment, but they just went 9-4 with a bowl win over Washington State.
Lets look at common opponent.
Maryland them W 31-10 Us L 31-13
Iowa Both L 14-7
PSU them L in Ot Us L 39-0
Ilinois them W40-17 Us L24-7
Yeah man, we're right there with them lol. Granted they have a new QB next year and we should be better at the position. But I'm really trying to understand you mean by us being right there with Minnesota. Are you saying that because we almost beat them? Heck, Iowa somehow beat Umich. Are they at the same level as Umich right now. Are you anticipating a huge drop off by them? Please elaborate.
So Fleck writes this heartfelt good bye letter to the WMU faithful saying he will always be a fan of the program and then immediately offers what I assume are his six best recruits to join him. Makes the letter or statement ring rather hollow to me. He could have at least asked the kids to wait until WMU hired his replacement especially if it winds up being someone who was on the staff.
Well, what's the difference with you cherry-picking your three best teams and ignoring your bottom four? I'll grant you the three best teams were in the East, but we're talking about the entire division, not three teams from each. You can't say you're this wonderful superior division because you have three excellent teams and four that sucked wind. Yeah, Michigan beat Wisconsin by one touchdown, but also lost to Iowa, which was not the West's best team. Ohio State beat Wisconsin in OT and didn't clinch the game against Northwestern until the final two minutes, so it isn't as if they were blowing everyone in the West off the field. They were very fortunate during the regular season, and it showed against Clemson. If you want me to put Illinois in, they actually went 2-1 against the East this year with victories over Michigan State and Rutgers. The West Division didn't have the strength in the top three spots that the East did this year, but they had fewer outright bad teams. As for playing more games within a weak division, each team plays three crossover games against the other division, and the West won most of them. If the East were stronger top to bottom, that would not be the expected result.
Damn... PJ Fleck just flipped 3 more Western Michigan players Sunday (for a total of 9 so far)... that is pretty cold towards the Broncos:
http://247sports.com/player/kyle-sassack-81967
and
http://247sports.com/player/nate-umlor-87309
and
http://247sports.com/player/tyrone-chambers-76207
PJ Fleck added another commit Sunday, however it wasn't a flip, but rather a mid to high 3-star RB out of Maryland who was also offered by Iowa and Kentucky:
http://247sports.com/player/mohamed-ibrahim-82053
I understand PJ doesn't have much recruiting time in this cycle because he was just hired, and he needs to get commits pronto (especially due to 10 possible upcoming dismissals & suspensions).... but to poach 9 guys less than a month prior to signing day from a single school that treated you very well over the previous 4 years is cold.
Keep in mind that 5 of those 9 flips also received offers from other P5 schools, so those 5 particular kids who flipped weren't just stuck at settling for either the MAC or Minnesota.
Well..... Western Michigan did trademark 'Row The Boat', so Minnesota is going to have to cough up $$$ in order to utilize the phrase (and per his introductory Gophers news conference, Fleck intends on using the phrase), so the Broncos will at least get some financial compensation.
http://247sports.com/player/kyle-sassack-81967
and
http://247sports.com/player/nate-umlor-87309
and
http://247sports.com/player/tyrone-chambers-76207
PJ Fleck added another commit Sunday, however it wasn't a flip, but rather a mid to high 3-star RB out of Maryland who was also offered by Iowa and Kentucky:
http://247sports.com/player/mohamed-ibrahim-82053
I understand PJ doesn't have much recruiting time in this cycle because he was just hired, and he needs to get commits pronto (especially due to 10 possible upcoming dismissals & suspensions).... but to poach 9 guys less than a month prior to signing day from a single school that treated you very well over the previous 4 years is cold.
Keep in mind that 5 of those 9 flips also received offers from other P5 schools, so those 5 particular kids who flipped weren't just stuck at settling for either the MAC or Minnesota.
Well..... Western Michigan did trademark 'Row The Boat', so Minnesota is going to have to cough up $$$ in order to utilize the phrase (and per his introductory Gophers news conference, Fleck intends on using the phrase), so the Broncos will at least get some financial compensation.
Last edited:
it is smart recruiting. Minny has some schollie openings. Fleck knows these guys since he has watched and recruited them. It is easier to turn guys you know that may be 2 and 3 stars than to go after new kids that may be leaning elsewhere and you have not been recruiting. Plus W Michigan had a big year so his recruits may be more highly rated than the Minny recruits.
If we fired our coach and then hired the Temple or UConn coach we would probably be in a similar situation where that new coach would bring his recruits with him.
If we fired our coach and then hired the Temple or UConn coach we would probably be in a similar situation where that new coach would bring his recruits with him.
Because they grow like you suggest but they also have 5* hearts too.
Holy apples to to oranges, Batman! lol
I think that's logical and likely expected especially late in the off season just like with Fleck moving. My only comment is, it isn't some great act of loyalty following a coach from the MAC to the B10. I'm sure most of his WMU class would be very grateful to have the opportunity.
I have no idea if Herman took any Houston recruits to Texas but I'd see that in the same fashion as well and that's from a high mid major school.
Similar threads
