$82 Million for a Pennsy team !!! and we can't get a practice facility

[HeavenUniv.]

For anyone who didn't know,New Jersey is giving a professional sports team from PENNSYLVANIA a $82 MILLION tax break !!! And The State University of New Jersey can't even get a practice facility when everyone from Maine State to Northeastern Nevada Tech has one !!! Just crazy--

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2014/06/philadelphia_76ers_ceo_camden_practice_facility_will_be_biggest_and_best_in_us.html

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

It's absolutely ridiculous to help finance a practice facility for an "out of state" Pro team.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

The purpose is NOT to help the team. The purpose is to help the local economy and create 200 jobs in Camden. That is the function of the Economic Development Authority.

There is very little long term economic benefit to building a practice facility for men's basketball. No doubt in the short term there is.

I keep hearing we need to borrow money at cheap rates and get this thing done. We need some type of plan and vision about how the project will bring in additional revenue. The football expansion is being paid by people in the Audi club. What about the practice facility? How about a plan where a good chunk is paid by season ticket holders in the best seats. I am all ears, show me a plan and a reason to donate and i'm on board. I haven't heard a peep from anyone about basketball.

Practice facility is one of many ingredients to a successful program. Alone it has very little benefit. No one comes to a school because of a practice facility...many don't because of the lack of one.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by HeavenUniv.:

For anyone who didn't know,New Jersey is giving a professional sports team from PENNSYLVANIA a $82 MILLION tax break !!! And The State University of New Jersey can't even get a practice facility when everyone from Maine State to Northeastern Nevada Tech has one !!! Just crazy--

In this case there are concrete jobs. The employees will now pay NJ state taxes instead of PA state taxes, and will presumably spend more money on lunch and such in NJ than they did before. Theres a slight chance that the team will actually pay some taxes ten years from now (although I woudl expect them to threaten to decamp for PA if that happens.)

Of course that almost surely doesnt all add up to $82 extra million dollars for NJ. So really its just a give away to already bililonaire sports owners - par for the course of course.

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:
The purpose is NOT to help the team. The purpose is to help the local economy and create 200 jobs in Camden. That is the function of the Economic Development Authority.

I heard this position on the radio debate some time ago as well. I always have to laugh at the math. $410,000 per job. Isn't there a more efficient way to creat 200 jobs in Camden? Be better roff just paying 200 folks $40k a year for 10 years to clean the streets and pick up garbage off them.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

It's actually $8,200,000 /200 = $41,000 per job and being done in a pretty rotten area. Much more of a positive impact than throwing up another building in the middle of no where on the Livingston campus where students reside...wouldn't reduce crime rate or potentially attempt to lift the area economically.

 

[RUfinal4]

remember it is a tax break and not actual money. If the facility was not built it is likely the land would be barren and not used. This way the 76ers spent money in NJ to build this facility. It is also possible that the front office staff and likely many players will decide to live in NJ vs. across the water in PA. If employees are in NJ they will pay NJ income taxes and NJ property taxes. If front office people make 6 figures and decide to live in NJ while working in Camden then NJ will reap the benefit of their income taxes. The towns will also gain from the property taxes.

Since there are only 2-4 games a week it is likely the players will live in NJ (Cherry Hill area) near the practice facility. Again this leads to more taxes paid to NJ for income. Yes a portion of the players incomes will be paid to every state where they play a game but if they practice in NJ I am guessing a larger portion will be paid to NJ based on the length of their contract.

Athlete tax returns

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

in the end it is actual money, but everything else you say is on the money

 

[RU-ROCS]

My college buddy who is a Camden county resident said there was some press down there that many of the workers at the Sixers' existing facility are South Jersey residents who commuted. So the notion that 200 new jobs for NJ residents would be created is an exaggeration. In any event, the lavish tens of millions of dollars in tax breaks to a billionaire are hardly justified even if it actually creates the 200 low-wage jobs predicted. The government could get far more in terms of job creation with far less through a more direct investment. This smacks of political back-office deal making.

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:
It's actually $8,200,000 /200 = $41,000 per job and being done in a pretty rotten area. Much more of a positive impact than throwing up another building in the middle of no where on the Livingston campus where students reside...wouldn't reduce crime rate or potentially attempt to lift the area economically.

That's $8.2 mil FIG but who's counting...

BTW..IF we ever build a new BB Arena I am all for doing it downtown NB...

 

[Virginiarufan]

Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:
It's actually $8,200,000 /200 = $41,000 per job and being done in a pretty rotten area. Much more of a positive impact than throwing up another building in the middle of no where on the Livingston campus where students reside...wouldn't reduce crime rate or potentially attempt to lift the area economically.

You've got to be f'ing kidding me with this. I'll say right now that at least 60% of the jobs for this project go to skilled laborers, equipment operators and managers form outside Camden including jobs to PA residents. There'll be more kick-backs etc. to the sleazy politicians that run that cesspool of a city leaving very little for those that need it. That project is a complete waste of taxpayer $$$ and a slap in the face to the people of NJ.

That money could have paid for 2/3 of a decent sized multi-purpose arena in downtown New Brunswick that could have solved a lot of problems.

 

[RUCONN]

this is a good investment. a new RAC/practice facility is not

 

[Aggs]

A facility for men's and women's basketball and potentially wrestling would be an outstanding investment.

What's the point of joining the B1G with all of that lovely TV money - and it's Rutgers money, not Trenton's - without spending it on upgrading facilities.

 

[MORRISCOUNTY]

Good post Heaven.

This is as about as symbolic as you can get when it comes to the problems in this state.

Stop playing second fiddle. Stop worshipping the 2 media centers that surround our state and start doing things for the people of New Jersey first.


Can you imagine that the first thing that came to mind from the POLS in southern NJ was to spend money for a Pennsylvania sports team. Disgusting.


For the people that are saying this is a good idea, you are the problem.

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

think we should spend more money on the big ugly electronic highway signs that tell you it is 10 mins to go 10 miles...or that a Silver BMW was stolen in Newark.

 

[Aggs]

The facility will create 250 new jobs - 200 of which belong to 76ers administrators, players and staff."

Sounds like a great idea!

 

[huskersalways]

Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:
The purpose is NOT to help the team. The purpose is to help the local economy and create 200 jobs in Camden. That is the function of the Economic Development Authority.

There is very little long term economic benefit to building a practice facility for men's basketball. No doubt in the short term there is.

I keep hearing we need to borrow money at cheap rates and get this thing done. We need some type of plan and vision about how the project will bring in additional revenue. The football expansion is being paid by people in the Audi club. What about the practice facility? How about a plan where a good chunk is paid by season ticket holders in the best seats. I am all ears, show me a plan and a reason to donate and i'm on board. I haven't heard a peep from anyone about basketball.

Practice facility is one of many ingredients to a successful program. Alone it has very little benefit. No one comes to a school because of a practice facility...many don't because of the lack of one.

It may not be the total reason you do or don't get a player, but your odds of even getting the best players to come to campus to even look at your school go up huge if you do have one.

 

[ruman]

Originally posted by RUCONN:

this is a good investment. a new RAC/practice facility is not

There is no way you can say this and be a Rutgers basketball fan. If you do believe it you are just wrong.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

Husker,
can you imagine what would happen in Nebraska if for some reason,something happened to your football practice fields (tornado,cyclone,etc.) and your administration,state government, and even some alumni told the NU athletic department, "no we don't think we will fix the practice fields--just practice every day on the stadium field,it might be a little awkward having 105 players practicing in one place,but the coach will get used to it." LOL

 

[huskersalways]

Originally posted by HeavenUniv.:

Husker,
can you imagine what would happen in Nebraska if for some reason,something happened to your football practice fields (tornado,cyclone,etc.) and your administration,state government, and even some alumni told the NU athletic department, "no we don't think we will fix the practice fields--just practice every day on the stadium field,it might be a little awkward having 105 players practicing in one place,but the coach will get used to it." LOL

I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to convey with the comparison. NU does practice at the stadium some now and it is with 140 players not 125.

The state government would have 0 say in it as far as whether or not it got replaced and it also wouldn't matter what some alumni regardless of how big a donors they were they wouldn't determine if it happened or not. The AD has enough slush fund money to rebuild it all without anyone's help. Last I heard it was around $125mil.

 

[RUCONN]

Originally posted by ruman:

Originally posted by RUCONN:

this is a good investment. a new RAC/practice facility is not

There is no way you can say this and be a Rutgers basketball fan. If you do believe it you are just wrong.

I love Rutgers. Love Rutgers basketball, football, and any other sport in which Rutgers competes. but im also a realist and understand real life. I lost my state job in NJ because of "budget cuts" now people want the state to chip in for a freaking practice facility for a program which may be the worst power conference program in America? It makes no sense. The Camden thing makes sense because of jobs, if somehow this creates jobs other than a ridiculous construction contract then maybe,. but it just isn't. t would only help a state school's basketball team get marginally better maybe which I Guess may drive some fans to watch the game but I even doubt that...we are already selling out the rac for conference games with an awful product.

I watch C Vivian Stringer somehow make it work with the same exact facilities not sure why a men's coach cant do the same

 

[RUInsanity]

Ruconn, have you even researched the Sixer practice facility deal before calling it a good thing for New Jersey? It is creating 50 new jobs for NJ. The other 200 jobs are players and already Sixer employees. Is this worth an 80 million dollar investment by the state? How much revenue does an NBA practice facility bring to the local economy?
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[RUCONN]

Originally posted by RUInsanity:
Ruconn, have you even researched the Sixer practice facility deal before calling it a good thing for New Jersey? It is creating 50 new jobs for NJ. The other 200 jobs are players and already Sixer employees. Is this worth an 80 million dollar investment by the state? How much revenue does an NBA practice facility bring to the local economy?

Posted from Rivals Mobile

Who will all pay NJ taxes. So yeah, it's worth it.

How much revenue would Rutgers practice facility bring?

Im sorry. No one can answer this question.. WHO IS PAYING FOR THE PRACTICE FACILITY? im stillwaiting....crickets,.

 

[essexknight]

A modern arena in downtown NB would create many more new jobs and stimulate the local economy much more than the Sixers practice facility did for Camden.

 

[bac2therac]

RUCONN way off the mark here...check out the wvu facility picks and check back

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Originally posted by essexknight:
A modern arena in downtown NB would create many more new jobs and stimulate the local economy much more than the Sixers practice facility did for Camden.

yeah, but we are talking about a practice facility not a multi purpose arena

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

You guys need to see the big picture.....$20,000,000+ for a facility to be used by 24 people in a program that no more than 2,000 people care about.

You want the state of NJ to pay for it?

99.9% of the population would be outraged and view it as a complete waste of their taxpayer dollars.

Go ask your significant other or someone close to you that doesn't really care about Rutgers basketball. What do they think?

The B1G and us fans should foot the bill not the state of NJ.

Any republican, I am not, is a complete hypocrite if they think NJ should pay for this.

 

[bac2therac]

I don't think people are saying the state should pay for it but even if they chipped in for a small part I have seen a lot of other crap they waste their money on

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by Aggs:
A facility for men's and women's basketball and potentially wrestling would be an outstanding investment.

What's the point of joining the B1G with all of that lovely TV money - and it's Rutgers money, not Trenton's - without spending it on upgrading facilities.

For RU athletics sure. For RU itself, maybe. For NJ, not much of a benefit.

Sure a new arena would be of use - but that would cost real money, not tax abatements, which in this paritcular case arent really real money (unless someone else was going to use that land for a productive purpose, or the team was always going to locate somewhere in NJ - neither of which seems true.)

So in short - for this Camden thing, NJ didnt really lose anything. This isnt a situation like Baltimore where a company in town will likely just move somehwere else in town without the abatements. PA is right across the river, so its easy enough to locate there instead, in which case NJ still isnt getting the tax money, but its also not getting the construction, the extra jobs, or the neighborhood improvement effects.

None of that applies to our situation. RU isnt going to move. Its not goin to fold up the basketball program. And with the Big Ten TV money coming in, even the argument that it will allow RU to not have a subsidy (part of which is paid for by the state) is bogus. In five years (basically by the time that the thing would be build and have helped us to start winning) RU wont have a subsidy, and so nay extra basketball money will just be money to go back into sports.
This post was edited on 2/26 10:51 AM by derleider

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Originally posted by bac2therac:

I have seen a lot of other crap they waste their money on

you know that is a poor arguement.

getting B1G, RU, and NJ at the same table makes sense.

 

[NotInRHouse]

A downtown facility that could be used for concerts, that would have a restaurant, maybe even a small museum, would create a TON of jobs...

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
A downtown facility that could be used for concerts, that would have a restaurant, maybe even a small museum, would create a TON of jobs...

There are a ton of these that have gone up in a 100 mile radius. They are tearing down Brendan Byrne/IZOD because it can't make money.

 

[billhobo]

If I'm reading the story properly, it's basically an $82 million that the Sixers will spend in NJ w/o paying a cent of taxes, and the upside through around year 2050 is about a "direct and indirect(?) tax" benefit of slightly more than $2 million per year.

Sounds good; that'll create about 10 new police jobs at $210k per man for salary, OT and benefits in Camden at that rate

.

 

[essexknight]

Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
A downtown facility that could be used for concerts, that would have a restaurant, maybe even a small museum, would create a TON of jobs...

There are a ton of these that have gone up in a 100 mile radius. They are tearing down Brendan Byrne/IZOD because it can't make money.

IZOD is a bad example. No team (pro or college) is currently playing there. The Nets, Devils, and SHU each have moved on to more modern arenas. An arena in downtown NB would host major college athletics. B1G programs like Ohio State, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin, etc.. would be coming in for both men's and women's basketball, and this kind of a modern facility would generate a good deal of revenue. The Sixers obviously can't match that in Camden. No one is going to watch the Sixers practice or "operate" out of their Camden offices.

I know most are talking about a practice facility for RU, and this is probably a more attainable goal than the arena in the near future. But lets not fool ourselves, RU plays in an extremely outdated arena by B1G standards.

 

[huskersalways]

Originally posted by essexknight:

Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
A downtown facility that could be used for concerts, that would have a restaurant, maybe even a small museum, would create a TON of jobs...

There are a ton of these that have gone up in a 100 mile radius. They are tearing down Brendan Byrne/IZOD because it can't make money.

IZOD is a bad example. No team (pro or college) is currently playing there. The Nets, Devils, and SHU each have moved on to more modern arenas. An arena in downtown NB would host major college athletics. B1G programs like Ohio State, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin, etc.. would be coming in for both men's and women's basketball, and this kind of a modern facility would generate a good deal of revenue. The Sixers obviously can't match that in Camden. No one is going to watch the Sixers practice or "operate" out of their Camden offices.

I know most are talking about a practice facility for RU, and this is probably a more attainable goal than the arena in the near future. But lets not fool ourselves, RU plays in an extremely outdated arena by B1G standards.

I won't get into all the details but ask some of your fans what the area around NU's new arena is like. You can Google Haymarket District and The Railyard in Lincoln and take a look. Most of what it is is because of the new arena. It is also walking distance to the football stadium and baseball field but the arena is across the street from it.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Originally posted by essexknight:

and this kind of a modern facility would generate a good deal of revenue.

the revenue would go to Rutgers athletics, not New Brunswick.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Originally posted by huskersalways:
I won't get into all the details but ask some of your fans what the area around NU's new arena is like. You can Google Haymarket District and The Railyard in Lincoln and take a look. Most of what it is is because of the new arena. It is also walking distance to the football stadium and baseball field but the arena is across the street from it.

It might be a stretch to say or assume it would have that same impact in New Brunswick. I could be wrong.

Bottom line there is nothing wrong with our Gameday facility. We should be talking about a practice facility.

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

Originally posted by Greene Rice FIG:

Originally posted by huskersalways:

I won't get into all the details but ask some of your fans what the area around NU's new arena is like. You can Google Haymarket District and The Railyard in Lincoln and take a look. Most of what it is is because of the new arena. It is also walking distance to the football stadium and baseball field but the arena is across the street from it.

It might be a stretch to say or assume it would have that same impact in New Brunswick. I could be wrong.

Bottom line there is nothing wrong with our Gameday facility. We should be talking about a practice facility.

I think while most would love the downtown thing we all know it isn't anything close to being in sight and extremely unrealistic under the current conditions. However a MODERATE Practice facility that could benefit both BB Teams and perhaps other sports should be something that can be figured out. Putting something like the Audi Club but more open sports bar-restaurant in it/near it would also help generate some coin.

The frustatration for me is the throw-the-hands-up attitude of RU leadership vs. the creative problem solveing can-do approach that even a few folks on a sports forum can throw out.

 

[RUInsanity]

Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by Aggs:
A facility for men's and women's basketball and potentially wrestling would be an outstanding investment.

What's the point of joining the B1G with all of that lovely TV money - and it's Rutgers money, not Trenton's - without spending it on upgrading facilities.

For RU athletics sure. For RU itself, maybe. For NJ, not much of a benefit.

Sure a new arena would be of use - but that would cost real money, not tax abatements, which in this paritcular case arent really real money (unless someone else was going to use that land for a productive purpose, or the team was always going to locate somewhere in NJ - neither of which seems true.)

So in short - for this Camden thing, NJ didnt really lose anything. This isnt a situation like Baltimore where a company in town will likely just move somehwere else in town without the abatements. PA is right across the river, so its easy enough to locate there instead, in which case NJ still isnt getting the tax money, but its also not getting the construction, the extra jobs, or the neighborhood improvement effects.

None of that applies to our situation. RU isnt going to move. Its not goin to fold up the basketball program. And with the Big Ten TV money coming in, even the argument that it will allow RU to not have a subsidy (part of which is paid for by the state) is bogus. In five years (basically by the time that the thing would be build and have helped us to start winning) RU wont have a subsidy, and so nay extra basketball money will just be money to go back into sports.
This post was edited on 2/26 10:51 AM by derleider

You need to explain better how NJ Spending $80 Million dollars on a Practice facility for the Sixers means "they didn't really lose anything". How is an NBA practice facility improving the Neighborhood in Camden? My guess is that the deal is somehow tied to Sweeney giving a sweet deal to a Development Firm that is backing his bid to run for Governor. This is only generating 50 new jobs - most of which will be low paying facility management / operations type positions.

As far as RU is concerned - I don't believe in handouts for a new practice facility either. But at least I can understand the concept better as RU is NJ's premier public university......it's kind of like if a town needed a new Gym for the middle school. It doesn't generate any income but it helps the kids who attend the school.

 

[MORRISCOUNTY]

The point of Heaven's post was that the Pols in Southern New Jersey are doing something for Pennsylvania while they should be focusing on New Jersey first, not 10th.

Should we rebuild AC or Camden or the Cape May Zoo? Should we implement a $120 million tourism campaign to boost tourisms dollars spent in Ocean, Atlantic or Cape May County? Should we save News 40 the only local network affiliate in the state? No. Why would we do anything like that when we can build an arena for a Pennsylvania team.

Pathetic.