I agree. I blame the coaching decisions. E has no bb hands, can’t dunk, can’t rebound. I’m really afraid of the lack of a skilled 5 like you said against the better centers in the conference. Some of the guys coming off the bench needs more minutes and we need to figure out the defensive rebounding problem as it was very apparent last night that we have one.
Clearly, we don’t have a true, center presence
- Thread starter SBP
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I know JMike had no one to pass last year but now he does. He needs to pass when he is driving into brick walls.
It’s a balance and gathering thing. Some players have to get balanced, gather, then move. Others are more explosive and attack quick. Ogbole takes time, even a split second means a lot.
Position and hustle are a big part. Often I noticed that he was way up the lane and it wasn’t due to setting a screen. Shot would go up & he would just turn & not move towards the rim.
Contrast that with Martini who on one rebound started out behind the arc and ran at the basket, tracked the ball, beat the St. John’s player to it. He scored on a reverse layup and drew a foul.
Don't you think Caleb McConnell who was a back to back defensive player of the year or Co-DPOY, had a lot more to do with RUs defensive ranking, instead of the shot-blocking 5 man, who might not potentially score??
What matters more than shot blocking is not the shot blocking, it is whomever is going to grab the rebound, once the shot-blocker tries to block the shot??
The other factor that is lost with fans is your shot blocker is not always able to be a good defensive player, if that player picks up an early foul in the 1st half. How effective is a shot blocking big, if an opponent knows, he has to play passively and not pick up a 2nd early foul, or a 3rd foul early in the 2nd half??
Situations dictate defense. Not shot blocking players. You have to rebound, weak side to defend at a high level, which is where Caleb thrived and where RU needs to find that player.....It can't just be Derkack at 6'5", my guess is Dylan Grant and Bryce Dortch are the short and long term answers to weak side rebounding and athletic ability to battle against players a couple of inches taller.
I need to see more Martini and his willingness to scrap for a few minutes per game, while he hopefully scores on the other end.
Not following the logic that Grant not playing in the scrimmage equates to him being a big contributor. If he can't even get into a scrimmage, he is likely way down the rotation and won't be a big contributor barring injury. Not everyone can be in the rotation. If Grant gets into the rotation, someone is coming out. Who would that be?
He might be better off shooting a 3 or mid range jumper
We disagree here. Like most of the time the answer could be somewhere in between.
I was lucky to watch 2 separate practices. Grant can shoot , he hustles, can cut to the basket where Ace found him for dunks a number of times , he can defend as well. Pike hardly played his freshman , except NBA guys , as Lathan I think did not play in second half. I would’ve very suprised if Grant doesn’t contribute positively this year.
JMike was shooting the 3 in drills much better. He has really been working on it. His weakness is when he is driving he always makes a decision that he is going to shoot it regardless of going into trees when he should be looking to pass. He has options and has to correct that part of his offensive game. Would be huge if he did.
It's not complicated.....any coach is going to properly coach a player to play more cautiously and to not foul, if they're in foul trouble or needed on the court for other factors (offense, rebounding etc).....that doesn't mean that a player in foul trouble defends at a high level.
The RU problem is offense not shot blocking or defense.....it requires "reprogramming ", what paths to success means. It is the equivalent of RU fans trying to prioritize the 3rd and 4th DT spot or backup linebacker and ignoring the QB play.
An improved offensive center and offense overall, is what RU needs to evolve into a more complete program. If you want to limit the amount of energy spent on defense each possession, the easiest way to do so, is score more points.
Couple of thoughts:
Martini will play a lot when the matchup makes sense. He's probably our best defensive big, but has been pointed out he's not a rebounder.
I was shocked that Hayes was 'only' a 79% shooter from the stripe. The way it looked I figured he'd be approaching Cam Spencer levels.
I'm thinking unfair to judge Acuff coming off an injury but he did look bigger and slower than I expected. He was pretty poor on d when I was paying attention.
We've got two guys that can get a decent shot against anybody. Never had that before and it will help immensely in late game situations.
Martini will play a lot when the matchup makes sense. He's probably our best defensive big, but has been pointed out he's not a rebounder.
I was shocked that Hayes was 'only' a 79% shooter from the stripe. The way it looked I figured he'd be approaching Cam Spencer levels.
I'm thinking unfair to judge Acuff coming off an injury but he did look bigger and slower than I expected. He was pretty poor on d when I was paying attention.
We've got two guys that can get a decent shot against anybody. Never had that before and it will help immensely in late game situations.
I don’t think the issue was so much the weave as it was St. John’s hit a bunch of 3s, and we extended our defense far beyond the arc to try to shut that down, and it spread us out and opened up a bunch of lanes to the basket.
We dont need offense from a center with this team. I think we need a center that stops penetration and defensive rebounds. Everything else is gravy. EO can be that guy.
Davis must be told no driving into the trees. He got stuffed every time.
Actually, pretty happy with the game, after all it was a charity game.
The two key freshman lived up to their hype and are the real deal.
Tranfers - Maritinni, Derkack and Hayes (My favorite) are going to play a big role in our success.
We can go 10 deep with little fall off.
Somerville showed moments of potential, great putback and then ran down and won fight for rebound. Big Body
Foul throw shooting looks like it can contribute 5+ points over last year.
JMike looked better than last year except when he drove into the trees.
Harper had no problems breaking the press.
Pike was experimenting with combinations and wanted to see that more than worrying about final score.
Las Vegas is going to be really SPECIAL
And JM Arena is going to be crazy all year long.
And I'm sure I missed a few other pluses.
The two key freshman lived up to their hype and are the real deal.
Tranfers - Maritinni, Derkack and Hayes (My favorite) are going to play a big role in our success.
We can go 10 deep with little fall off.
Somerville showed moments of potential, great putback and then ran down and won fight for rebound. Big Body
Foul throw shooting looks like it can contribute 5+ points over last year.
JMike looked better than last year except when he drove into the trees.
Harper had no problems breaking the press.
Pike was experimenting with combinations and wanted to see that more than worrying about final score.
Las Vegas is going to be really SPECIAL
And JM Arena is going to be crazy all year long.
And I'm sure I missed a few other pluses.
Having Cliff's shot blocking enabled Caleb to be his best. He could take chances because he knew he had help if he didn't get there.
To be elite elite at defense those teams probably all have an elite wing defender and a rim protector
He also erased others getting beat off the dribble as well i.e. Paul
He still looks like he was just dropped on the planet as a really tall alien, then put on a basketball court due to his height. He has no basketball instincts, no basketball IQ and no experience. He is so raw, Jay Young better get busy coaching him up because it is going to take a lot of work.
My hot take….Cliff would have had plenty of trouble defending Ejiofor. He still would have went off for a monster night.
Cliff always seemed to do poorly against a shorter big that moved well and better against bigger slower.
Obviously he would have made enough of a difference to get the W though and yes I miss him.
Cliff always seemed to do poorly against a shorter big that moved well and better against bigger slower.
Obviously he would have made enough of a difference to get the W though and yes I miss him.
It’s this. There’s nothing else to say except even if he’s not the one grabbing the defensive board Ogbole is helping the halfcourt possession end without points for the opponent better than our other options right now. this much is clear as day and unfortunately the gap isn’t close. If we’re not pressing and playing gamble style (I.e. intention to steal the ball before it even gets to the paint - when you press you know there is a good chance your giving up points in transition when the traps don’t work so going smaller matters less).
I understand Lathan wasn’t out there long, but he was yanked because of how bad his D was. Martini plays hard and is excellent on the offensive glass but at least vs SJU he was just too small to defend their center. My guess is he will play the 5 when we apply full court pressure and he’s not in foul trouble.
20+ offensive rebounds contradicts this. He played the most minutes and it wasn’t pretty.
EO as a starting center is like Reiber being the starting 4, a fallacy people have convinced themselves will work.
No - unfortunately it doesn’t tell you anything about Sommerville’s potential at center or Martini’s. I have no idea whether those boards were given up in the 21 minutes he played more than the 19 minutes he didn’t but even if the team gave up 40 offensive boards with Ogbole in the game - that still doesn’t tell you the other guys are better options. Remember - if your giving up uncontested easy baskets in the paint there is less need for offensive rebounds since the first shot attempt usually goes in. My guess is in Sommerville’s 7 minutes very few offensive boards were necessary and not for good reason.
Saying ogbole is the best 5 we’ve got right now is not the same as saying he’s good. We should’ve bought another role playing center with proven experience. Yes, even if that meant Sommerville was a flight risk. Thats the reality.
Yes for sure. There’s certainly a chance that things start to click for him before the season ends. The problem as Green pointed out is with all these Vegas games - the potential to be 6-6 is there considering Lathan currently looks to not be playable against real competition. We needed to bring in someone with meaningful D1 experience - I understand we weren’t getting a star at our price point but even a utility player who Lathan would have had the potential to pass on the depth chart by Feb needed to be brought in even at risk of Lathan walking. Starting off the season reasonably strong is too important and Lathan is very far off from being able to contribute quality minutes right now. We don’t need a scorer at that position. We need someone who can play serviceable D and he’s miles from that at the moment unfortunately.
I mean… Big E’s sole purpose is to rebound. Pike sort of said that vailed criticism without mentioning his name. He didn’t have to. Envoy put rebounded because of positioning and flat out lack of quickness and nose for the ball… angles. It’s clearly something Jay has to address and I’m sure will be the prime focus. Any points he gets on our backs etc is gravy.
I didn't see Martini getting pushed around even though he's giving height and weight up compared to Ogbole. One has court IQ, the other not so much. One has a bulldog mentality, the other does not.
The staff made a monumental error here not bringing in an experienced big that could give them a consistent 8 & 8 most nights.
Everyone has legitimate reason to be concerned about the post. You can teach rebounding. You can’t teach shot making.
So I guess that’s a silver lining. We don’t have the thing you can teach and we do have the thing you can’t teach.
While sitting here watching Tottenham, decided to look at the center match up on the play by play between EO and the Johnnies kid.
In EO's first shift, he had two blocks and a rebound plus the one foul while SJ kid had a rebound and shot 0-3. In the next minute, against Martini, he had three rebounds and a basket.
EO's second stint on the court he had a rebound and the ST. JOHNS kid nothing in the matching minutes they were there together.
Third shift of the first half, EO had two points and a rebound while Zuby had a basket and two rebounds.
In the first half, matched up together the center position was a draw when EO was on the court. This was around 12 of EO's 21 minutes played
In EO's first shift, he had two blocks and a rebound plus the one foul while SJ kid had a rebound and shot 0-3. In the next minute, against Martini, he had three rebounds and a basket.
EO's second stint on the court he had a rebound and the ST. JOHNS kid nothing in the matching minutes they were there together.
Third shift of the first half, EO had two points and a rebound while Zuby had a basket and two rebounds.
In the first half, matched up together the center position was a draw when EO was on the court. This was around 12 of EO's 21 minutes played
Take a look at my post, in the first minute against Martini, Zuby had as many points and more rebounds than he did in around 11 minutes against EO.
No - goal number one on defense is to prevent the initial possession attempt from resulting in points in the first place. He’s going to be in there because without him - penetrating the paint was just too easy and that’s how guys like Dylan get in foul trouble overcompensating. Once you force a miss - securing the board is the secondary goal.
I also think your oversimplifying. How many rebounds do you think Cliff averaged against teams like SJU? Before you answer consider that his overall stats (8 rpg) are inflated by gaudy performances against horrible cupcakes (Bryant, Howard, Stonehill, etc.) and small power conf teams like Michigan. He also played 5+ more minutes than Ogbole played yesterday on average. I get it - 4 rebounds in 21 minutes isn’t an impressive stat line but there is no sign that we have a better option but to hope he settles in because we’re not going to press the whole game. We have no other answer in halfcourt D sets when Ogbole sits. At least that’s how it seemed.
I'm not doing the second half, but it was similar. Also, just saw the plus minuses for the game for the first time. Ogbole led the team with a plus 13, followed by Davis at plus 12.
Thanks for doing the homework. Good stuff. Og has cracks in his game for sure and will not be Cliff. However some are going overboard with the targeting of his play. I even saw a post saying he couldn't dunk 😳. Rebounding is also a team function. It does little good to have one big guy set to rebound if the rest of the team is also not boxing/shielding/positioning against their men. Also, it you have a guy like Richmond who is superior at getting to the rim, when your center must lag to meet him.... it takes defensive help/support to protect & rebound the backside.
As good as the team potential looks on offense with the 2 studs.... there is still work to do on defensive technique, switching and situational awareness. Going to take some time to gel and figure out the right pieces.....if anyone can figure it out on the defensive end.....it's Pike.
Basic +/- doesn't account for their actual contribution. Ogbole benefitted from being on the court more with Ace and/or Dylan. Here are a couple of player specific stats:
- Ogbole was 2nd worst in Net Points at -5.3, (4.6 produced, 9.9 allowed) while Martini was 0.1 and Sommervile at -2.1.
- Ogbole 3rd worst Defensive Rating at 126.3, Martini - 142.3 (4th best) and Sommerville - 156.8 (Tied 1st).
- Ogbole and Martinin had the same number of boards - 4. Except all of Ogbole's were offensive and 3 of Martini's were defensive. This is due to Ogbole being out of position a lot defensively. And this is a continuation of last year where 70/80% of Ogbole's rebounds were offensive.
- Ogbole had a 9 efficiency, while Martini was 7.
-They had very similar game scores, 4.8 vs 4.5
Well, yes and no it doesn't account for their actual contribution because it accounts for everything that happened while they were on the floor. If Ogbole was -5 net in his match up it was because of two late baskets. I only looked at his time on court w Zuby. Would love to see where these number came from, you have a link?
Isn't a lower defensive rating a better score? 126, while very bad, would be better than 142 or 153.
Well this destroys some arguments. The problem is Ogbole looks so unnatural out there that his mistakes stand out more i think
👀
Net points if you factor in time on the court make Lathan look worse
A higher defensive rating is bad, obviously
Lathan is not 1st. He is last. That is a horrific number.
Ogbole is not last. He is the best of the 5's by a wide margin
I cannot comment on a lot of your stats - since I never heard of the "net" points stats, or the defensive rating calculations - have no idea how they are calculated.
I can say that your 3rd bullet point is an error (and therefore your conclusion, which even if correct, is also erroneous based on the stats you cited, at least). You got it reversed: Ogbole had 4 DEFENSIVE rebounds, and Martini had 3 OFFENSIVE rebounds - and Martini scored both his baskets directly off 2 of his offensive rebounds.
I went and looked at the rebounds and StatBroadcast has two different things between their game log and the analytics section.
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