And unfortunately I thought he was still our third best rebounder last night.
Gonna have an issue rebounding as a whole this year.
GAME 1 PRINCETON: A mess but understandable?
- Thread starter bac2therac
- Start date
Gonna have an issue rebounding as a whole this year.
Everyone has bad games, this was a collective bad game. Michigan State lost.
The one thing that surprised me the most was how skinny Derek Simpson still is, he looked even skinnier than last year. He got bullied a number of times by Princeton. I guess I was expecting more of a transformation like Geo had from his freshman to sophomore years.
The one thing that surprised me the most was how skinny Derek Simpson still is, he looked even skinnier than last year. He got bullied a number of times by Princeton. I guess I was expecting more of a transformation like Geo had from his freshman to sophomore years.
Princeton doesn't need fans to win games.They play fundamentally sound basketball that travels well wherever games are played.
Good recap as usual Bac. Was in attendance last night so here are my thoughts.
1. Cure Insurance Arena debacle- was discussed in the other thread but wow what a terrible experience. I’ve never seen such a cluster **** parking in my life. Rutgers should never go back. It doesn’t end there though, the concession stand credit card machine crashed and would only take cash. There was no scoreboard for stats could not keep track of player personnel fouls etc. On the out of bounce review, they showed it one time and the screen was choppy and you could t tell who the ball was off.
2. Refs- I thought they were good overall, obviously I had to boo when nothing was going our way but you can’t expect to get calls when you drive to the basket out of control.
3. Guards- no plan, no roles. It felt like they were taking turns putting their heads down driving and taking circus shots at the rim. I think they did a pretty bad job feeding Cliff in situations where he could succeed and when they did Cliff had trouble finishing.
4. Defense- Princeton’s spacing in the second half was fantastic. They would repeatedly draw Cliff away from the paint, get a match up they liked and would either beat their man to the basket, put the defender on ice skates and shoot over top or back down a smaller guard for an easy basket. I guess Pikes concerns on that end we’re warranted.
5. Rebounding/hustle- This was the most discouraging because it felt like Princeton wanted it more, and to be out rebounded when you have a clear size advantage, is unacceptable.
Overall, pretty lack luster night all the way around. I trust Pike to get it figured out though. Princeton is good and experienced and that showed. Tough to learn on the fly against such a well coached team like Princeton. I won’t completely overreact. I still think this team can be pretty good, just need more time to figure it out.
1. Cure Insurance Arena debacle- was discussed in the other thread but wow what a terrible experience. I’ve never seen such a cluster **** parking in my life. Rutgers should never go back. It doesn’t end there though, the concession stand credit card machine crashed and would only take cash. There was no scoreboard for stats could not keep track of player personnel fouls etc. On the out of bounce review, they showed it one time and the screen was choppy and you could t tell who the ball was off.
2. Refs- I thought they were good overall, obviously I had to boo when nothing was going our way but you can’t expect to get calls when you drive to the basket out of control.
3. Guards- no plan, no roles. It felt like they were taking turns putting their heads down driving and taking circus shots at the rim. I think they did a pretty bad job feeding Cliff in situations where he could succeed and when they did Cliff had trouble finishing.
4. Defense- Princeton’s spacing in the second half was fantastic. They would repeatedly draw Cliff away from the paint, get a match up they liked and would either beat their man to the basket, put the defender on ice skates and shoot over top or back down a smaller guard for an easy basket. I guess Pikes concerns on that end we’re warranted.
5. Rebounding/hustle- This was the most discouraging because it felt like Princeton wanted it more, and to be out rebounded when you have a clear size advantage, is unacceptable.
Overall, pretty lack luster night all the way around. I trust Pike to get it figured out though. Princeton is good and experienced and that showed. Tough to learn on the fly against such a well coached team like Princeton. I won’t completely overreact. I still think this team can be pretty good, just need more time to figure it out.
I don’t know what the off season program is for these players when it comes to skill and strength development, but it was clear to me that:
Simpson is the same skinny out of control turnover prone player.
Simpson is the same skinny out of control turnover prone player.
Simpson and Hyatt were unmitigated disasters on defense in the first half, and they might not have even been our worst defender (Gavin... yikes).
Simpson stepped it up defensively in the second half but Hyatt was horrible on both sides all game. I think he got pulled early in the second half for a reckless drive that ended in a turnover and the first possession he came back in he gave up an and-1 on defense.
Simpson and Davis have the Montez Mathis problem, which is really a Steve Pikiell problem: they don't have any idea how to finish layups or control their bodies to draw fouls. They go full speed at the basket and throw up a prayer and hope they get a whistle. Watch James Madison against Michigan State last night: guys got into the paint and then stopped, pump-faked, pivoted... you have to do something to get defenders off balance. When they can just backpedal and stay vertical you're not getting any calls.
At least one of Fernandes, Simpson, or Davis needs to learn how to play without their ball in their hands. That's why Austin Williams got so much run, he actually had a clue what to do off the ball.
Woolfolk at the 4 was very impressive. We need more of that but without any other options at the 5 we can't really play him and Cliff together very often.
As always the problem isn't scheduling these games it's losing them. How on earth are we 0-3 against St. Bonaventure, Temple, and Princeton on neutral courts?
Simpson stepped it up defensively in the second half but Hyatt was horrible on both sides all game. I think he got pulled early in the second half for a reckless drive that ended in a turnover and the first possession he came back in he gave up an and-1 on defense.
Simpson and Davis have the Montez Mathis problem, which is really a Steve Pikiell problem: they don't have any idea how to finish layups or control their bodies to draw fouls. They go full speed at the basket and throw up a prayer and hope they get a whistle. Watch James Madison against Michigan State last night: guys got into the paint and then stopped, pump-faked, pivoted... you have to do something to get defenders off balance. When they can just backpedal and stay vertical you're not getting any calls.
At least one of Fernandes, Simpson, or Davis needs to learn how to play without their ball in their hands. That's why Austin Williams got so much run, he actually had a clue what to do off the ball.
Woolfolk at the 4 was very impressive. We need more of that but without any other options at the 5 we can't really play him and Cliff together very often.
As always the problem isn't scheduling these games it's losing them. How on earth are we 0-3 against St. Bonaventure, Temple, and Princeton on neutral courts?
Comments I have read on this thread that resonate for me:
- Woolfolk literally the only player that I thought played at his potential.
- Princeton hustled more and wanted it more.
- We had a huge size advantage. BOX OUT!
- No complaints about the refs.
- With respect to @NewJerseyHawk, we are worse without Mulcahy and Spencer
Additional thoughts:
- Somebody needed to hard foul Xaivian Lee early in the 2nd half and get him out of his comfort zone. The little guy's confidence was sky high. Mulcahy or Mag would have knocked him on his ass a few times and slowed him down. Cliff finally did it at the end but by then the kid's confidence was unshakable.
- Woolfolk literally the only player that I thought played at his potential.
- Princeton hustled more and wanted it more.
- We had a huge size advantage. BOX OUT!
- No complaints about the refs.
- With respect to @NewJerseyHawk, we are worse without Mulcahy and Spencer
Additional thoughts:
- Somebody needed to hard foul Xaivian Lee early in the 2nd half and get him out of his comfort zone. The little guy's confidence was sky high. Mulcahy or Mag would have knocked him on his ass a few times and slowed him down. Cliff finally did it at the end but by then the kid's confidence was unshakable.
You are a dinosaur. 54 is really really old
As others have said, it’s game one and there are a lot of new pieces. But still a disappointing performance as no one stood out (except for AW) where you could just say “off night” and no real glimpses as to what can be. Cliff is Cliff and Aundre is Aundre: hands are a part of the game.
If Princeton can shoot like they did last night, they’re a tough team to defend.
If Princeton can shoot like they did last night, they’re a tough team to defend.
It makes sense that Princeton wanted this more. I said in another thread that you never want to be a Q3 team's super bowl. They wanted to schedule this game more than we did, and they wanted to win this game more than we did, and it matters more for their season resume then it does for ours.
Best we could hope for out of this game was avoiding a bad loss. This is their signature win.
Oh, and continued terrible coaching by Pikiell when facing a team that can shoot. We defend Princeton and Iowa the same way we defend Indiana and Northwestern... why?? If we want to get real about the defensive scheme let's recognize how insanely lucky we were that Connor Essegian and Seth Lundy couldn't hit a single open shot and we barely scraped by Wisconsin and Penn State last year. It's infuriating to allow so many open threes to a team that you know wants to shoot.
Cliff is what he is at this point. I love him but he does not have good hands and it hurts his rebounding and offense. Not that he is poor in either department but could be so much better. And he needs to stop shooting 3 pointers.
So Michigan State loses to James Madison at home and that will be a Quad 3 loss as well . Guess they and Rutgers would have to overcome it. Will Princeton and James Madison be ranked about the same in the Net ?
We are basing the team being better or worse on ONE game??
If you say so....but I also know neither player was good enough last year as full time starters to deliver enough wins, otherwise they'd both still be here. The trend at the end of last year was losing 6 of the final 8 regular season games.....with Mulcahy and Spencer as the starting back court. Neither player improved or got better as the season moved into the teeth of the B1G competition.
It's not unreasonable to think both players would be better based off 1 game vs Princeton, but Princeton isn't the litmus test or level of competition that RU gets judged against.
The level of comp that matters most are Power 5/6 level opponents......Wake Forest, Georgetown, Mississippi State, Seton Hall and the other 13 B1G opponents. That's the level of play we have to match, not worrying about matching up with a Princeton, playing a 6'6 center setting picks 25 feet from the basket.
Cliff Omoyuri is going to be judged by his competition of Zed Key at Ohio State, Zach Edey, Julian Reese at Maryland, Ware at Indiana etc.....no one wants to acknowledge how badly the offense looked in February at the RAC vs Michigan, Northwestern, as if we didn't play awful for 25 to 28 minutes at Penn State down the stretch last year.....the guards starting were Spencer and Mulcahy.
I think it's reasonable to see how our guards play over a full season on offense and defense before declaring anything.
We also supposedly missed Eugene Omoyuri when he left for Oregon, Jacob Young when he left for Oregon, Myles Johnson when he left for UCLA, Montez Mathis when he departed for St Johns....all valuable and capable players at RU....each time until we needed Spencer and Mulcahy to backfill those departures to come through last year and they failed to do so, but I'm expected to say we miss them too?? They didn't deliver, so my view of "missing them", is results based. They didn't deliver in February and early March when needed to, so NO, I am 100% comfortable moving on and playing a different, up tempo and better brand of basketball in the future.
And as an FYI.....fans want elite recruits and expect to want to see games played 59-55.....???? You have to evolve as a program to get recruits involved like Dylan Harper, Ace, Dortch, Grant and Sommerville.......they aren't coming here to play snail's paced hoops. This change is necessary for the short and long term.
NJH,
Not going to argue with you and take 3% of the season and tell you how wrong you are. That is dumb and pointless (not that I am above being dumb and pointless).
You bring up a point in your last paragraph that is definitely worth discussing and debating......
We played to a 62 possession tempo. Princeton doesn't mind playing fast. It was us that slowed the tempo. The guys you mentioned above probably don't want to come here playing 62 possession basketball and they certainly don't want to sit the bench because of defense.
I believe Pike did what he did in the 2nd half because he wanted badly to win the game. I believe he played the players that gave him the best chance of winning.
Should Pike be looking longer term and really change the DNA of the program for the players that are set to come here.
That is the debate. I am not willing to watch Simpson go under picks and Griffiths having absolutely no clue how to play D being torched on the floor. I feel we lose by 20 if he kept the starting 5 out there for half 2. I also fear Dylan and Ace will NOT come here to a team that plays slow and plays Austin Williams and Oskar over our supposed stars.
Not going to argue with you and take 3% of the season and tell you how wrong you are. That is dumb and pointless (not that I am above being dumb and pointless).
You bring up a point in your last paragraph that is definitely worth discussing and debating......
We played to a 62 possession tempo. Princeton doesn't mind playing fast. It was us that slowed the tempo. The guys you mentioned above probably don't want to come here playing 62 possession basketball and they certainly don't want to sit the bench because of defense.
I believe Pike did what he did in the 2nd half because he wanted badly to win the game. I believe he played the players that gave him the best chance of winning.
Should Pike be looking longer term and really change the DNA of the program for the players that are set to come here.
That is the debate. I am not willing to watch Simpson go under picks and Griffiths having absolutely no clue how to play D being torched on the floor. I feel we lose by 20 if he kept the starting 5 out there for half 2. I also fear Dylan and Ace will NOT come here to a team that plays slow and plays Austin Williams and Oskar over our supposed stars.
There were plenty of possessions, especially in the second half, where Princeton could have pushed the tempo but chose to hold the ball and run clock. They were not looking to get into an up and down game with us, they wanted a slow, methodical game that would favor the more disciplined team.
That might be true with the personnel we had in. They appeared to be fine with the uptempo to start the game as they were scoring literally evey possession.
Happy Birthday BAC. I always look forward to reading your comments after every game, win or lose. As has often been said , you learn more about a team from a tough loss than an easy win against an inferior opponent. And playing Princeton in our first game with 2 new starting guards and missing Caleb was a huge mistake. One of the weaknesses we had last year continues into this season , namely we lack a second solid rebounder and rim protector at the 4 position. And that can be blamed on Pike's past recruiting...When Cliff gets drawn away from the basket we get exposed . Perhaps Woolfolf will be that guy and play the 4 more with Cliff. Hyatt continues to be look much better coming off the bench than starting and is consistently inconsistent...One play that sticks in my mind from last night was when Rutgers came back in the second half from being 10 down to cut the Princeton lead to 2 points and then have the Princeton guard drive the length of the court for an easy uncontested layup. I can't ever recall seeing that happen in the recent past with Pike's teams and can't continue.
It’s hard to be uptempo when you don’t defensive rebound or get to loose balls.
I did not want to start a new thread on this but if anyone is paying attention.....
RU has lost 4 straight games at the RAC and overall has lost 9 of its last 12 games
program needs to take care of these cupcakes for confidence for the players and the fans
RU has lost 4 straight games at the RAC and overall has lost 9 of its last 12 games
program needs to take care of these cupcakes for confidence for the players and the fans
You cannot blame Pike for most of Princeton’s going 9-20 from 3. On 3 separate occasions either Derek or Jamichael or Noah went under screens and Princeton guards and wings hit threes . Peters got hot from the corner when Hyatt didn’t get out and put a hand up. Martini hit 2 threes from the right side of the court and corner as Cliff tried his best but couldn’t get all the way out to block the shot. That is not a coaching problem that is a player awareness problem and laziness on defense for not going over the pick and going under and a bad matchup for Cliff , who you needed in the game if you were going to win it. Pike does have to eliminate the going under screens especially for our guards and Hyatt.
over the next week, the greatest recruiting class in the history of the school (even without Harper) will be signing their letters. All four have scheduled the dates and times. That should bring at least some good vibes for the program.
I mentioned it in the RAC renovation thread.
Everyone says the RAC is a massive advantage. It’s nice. But Nebraska and Penn St were better at home. RAC is a great atmosphere but fanbase needs some perspective on what it actually provides. The whole conference on average is better at home, broadcasts mention that all the time “it’s hard to win on the road in the big ten” yada yada.
definitely not paying attention...wow we lost our last 4 RAC games. that is bad
far from a coaching problem, especially when you add the players going under the screen found themselves on the bench.
I am not confident of a lot of things right now. I am confident we will not see much more of players going under screens. I am sure there are 5 players on the roster that won't
Beating Princeton might have helped with this.
Pike better get this team straightened out and quickly. I thought the Africa trip was supposed to get them in midseason form very early. I certainly hope that this.. was not R midseason form.
People wanting more Griffiths.. his D got him a seat. That was the right thing to do.. for the season.. if not for that game. Everyone needs to work harder on D.. after the first major subs.. it looked better.
Honestly I don't/didn't know how recruiting really works. Once NLIs are signed it is only Dylan and future classes that are the concern.
I don't know if NLI's are broken. I know there needs to be a coaching staff change or the school allowing player to break agreement.
linky with some info on this - my take is that programs will more often release players upon request or suffer some kind of PR backlash that might affect future recruiting.. could be wrong.
Ace has announced he will be signing his LOI to Rutgers on Saturday night
why are you starting with this crap? I know you posted this early yesterday but he's signing Saturday.
Last season at a neutral site (Union College in NJ), Rick Pitino-coached Iona beat Princeton. Wonder if Pitino shared his strategy with Pikiell?
I could not agree more. We would have been much better off playing a team like Duke in some pre-season tournamewnt as an opener. At least then, we'd get credit for a "good loss" that the Committee seems to love.
I wasn’t able to watch the game until this evening, and I tried to be objective even though I have read a lot of the commentary here.
-Princeton came ready to play. They played much harder and more intense than us, they crashed the boards and took better shots. We didn‘t seem to have any cohesion on offense, took lots of out of control shots, didn’t close out their shooters on the perimeter and didn’t box out. All that being said, we could have easily won this game if we converted a few shots around the basket.
-I love Pike, but there is no reason this team should have been so unprepared, they have been practicing together for 3 months and had the benefit of several extra weeks of practice because of the foreign trip. What the hell have they been doing??? It seems like no one understands their role.
-Noah wasn’t terrible, but he looks out of shape. I don’t know if he was limited at all because of the injury he suffered last year, but I was under the impression he has been a full go in practice for most, if not all of training camp. He looked slow and could lose a couple of pounds.
-The chatter that Gavin’s defense is poor is completely overblown. On one play he should have closed out better on Allocco when he was taking a 3, and he could have done a better job picking up Hyatt’s man on a back cut, but was generally ok and should have played a lot more given how much trouble we had scoring. I did notice him standing around watching a rebound, but I also saw most of the team doing the same thing while Princeton threw everything they had at the boards.
-Speaking of defense, Cliff did a horrible job closing out on Zach Martini on a couple of 3s that gave Princeton some breathing room.
-JMike is going to be a good player for us, but he needs some better judgement about when to shoot, and probably shouldn’t be shooting in the last couple of minutes unless he as an open lane to the basket.
-Hyatt was a complete non factor, and the hype around him from the preseason looks a little ridiculous right now. Simpson also didn’t look much different than last year.
-Wolf was great, and Palmquist was pretty solid. Williams was up and down, but it looks like we will need him to play an important role this year.
-The idea that Princeton represents some unique challenge because of the way they play is FALSE. As with most smaller teams they play 5 out to try and spread the court and create driving lanes. Their success on Monday was entirely due to playing harder than us, not their style of play.
-Princeton came ready to play. They played much harder and more intense than us, they crashed the boards and took better shots. We didn‘t seem to have any cohesion on offense, took lots of out of control shots, didn’t close out their shooters on the perimeter and didn’t box out. All that being said, we could have easily won this game if we converted a few shots around the basket.
-I love Pike, but there is no reason this team should have been so unprepared, they have been practicing together for 3 months and had the benefit of several extra weeks of practice because of the foreign trip. What the hell have they been doing??? It seems like no one understands their role.
-Noah wasn’t terrible, but he looks out of shape. I don’t know if he was limited at all because of the injury he suffered last year, but I was under the impression he has been a full go in practice for most, if not all of training camp. He looked slow and could lose a couple of pounds.
-The chatter that Gavin’s defense is poor is completely overblown. On one play he should have closed out better on Allocco when he was taking a 3, and he could have done a better job picking up Hyatt’s man on a back cut, but was generally ok and should have played a lot more given how much trouble we had scoring. I did notice him standing around watching a rebound, but I also saw most of the team doing the same thing while Princeton threw everything they had at the boards.
-Speaking of defense, Cliff did a horrible job closing out on Zach Martini on a couple of 3s that gave Princeton some breathing room.
-JMike is going to be a good player for us, but he needs some better judgement about when to shoot, and probably shouldn’t be shooting in the last couple of minutes unless he as an open lane to the basket.
-Hyatt was a complete non factor, and the hype around him from the preseason looks a little ridiculous right now. Simpson also didn’t look much different than last year.
-Wolf was great, and Palmquist was pretty solid. Williams was up and down, but it looks like we will need him to play an important role this year.
-The idea that Princeton represents some unique challenge because of the way they play is FALSE. As with most smaller teams they play 5 out to try and spread the court and create driving lanes. Their success on Monday was entirely due to playing harder than us, not their style of play.
Your post motivated me to watch the game again, and we actually played better than I originally thought.
Our defense was pretty solid most of the time. Princeton took advantage of seemingly every small window of opportunity our D gave them to score.
Princeton also seemed to dig out every 50/50 ball, a couple of which led to second-chance threes for them, which were absolute daggers. (They also got almost every lucky bounce, and there were a few.)
A key turning point was halfway through the second half. We tied it at 45, then Martini hit 2 treys in a row, sandwiched around an Alloco two, and suddenly we were down by 8.
Gavin actually played pretty well. I agree that the criticism of his defense was way overblown. He’s gonna be fine and will have a good year for us.
Oskar played even better than I thought, and he earned all of his 23 minutes on the both ends of the floor — Pike made the right call in that regard.
Hyatt had a bad game, no way to sugarcoat it. Woolf and Oskar looked much better at the 4.
No problem with JMike getting more minutes than Derek, who along with Hyatt simply had a poor showing.
Despite all the missed layups and everything that went wrong for us and right for them, RU came back three times, from deficits of 8, 9, and 10 points, to either take the lead, tie it, or get within 2 points.
A lot to clean up, but a lot to look forward to as well this year. I’m still very encouraged and optimistic.
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