Gavin Wimsatt/Athan Kaliakmanis Deep Dive Comparison

[rutgersfan1766]

Dude people have been hard on every single starting QB here since 1869. The best player on the team has always been the backup qb. Remember "Free Rettig"?

Wimsatt had the lowest completion percentage in D1 last year. He deserves criticism.

Also 80% of the team is black, do you really think the coaches have a racist agenda?

The coaches wouldn't have started Wimsatt if they had a racist agenda. It's the fans that wanted Evan Simon and now Athan K. And it specifically refers to the QB position (aka the face of the team).

And to be clear I would have NO issues with this thread if people understood it's a literal coin flip between the two guys but there are people inferring here that AK is significant upgrade over GW which isn't even close to true going off the numbers there a trade off between passing/rushing ability.

Unless Cam Ward is coming to Rutgers we should roll with Gavin

 

[Eagleton96]

First it was Evan Simon... now Athan K. Something doesn't add up here.... it's clear people have an anti Gavin Wimsatt agenda.

People are making Gavin a scapegoat when there's plenty of other blame to go around.

Only people with no actual data have to resort to name calling to prove their point, like you just so eloquently did.

OMG. Fans making a scapegoat of a QB?!? That NEVER happens. How rare. Must be racism.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

team did it despite Gav
kid can't hit 5yd passes and you think he brought us to a bowl (bowl games not a measure any longer given more than half the teams go)

you want to infer racism is why people don't like him? you sire a full on piece of shit!

Perhaps a nicer way of putting it is that there aren’t too many QBs that would have prevented our path to 6-6 this season. The defense was good enough. The OL was good enough. And Kyle was a stud. Some of our fans have been claiming Gavin’s rush ability made Kyle’s success possible. I’m not sure I buy that Kyle couldn’t have had a nice season with a pocket passer who threw more accurately but wasn’t as mobile. But even still, there are plenty of dual threat back up QBs that would’ve probably Led us to the same place right now at 6-6as long as they weren’t complete turnover machines. Any game manager could’ve gotten it done.

 

[rutgersfan1766]

OMG. Fans making a scapegoat of a QB?!? That NEVER happens. How rare. Must be racism.

The guy that started this thread is on Richie's podcast and is seen as a trusted source when he's nothing more than a fan that's pushing his agenda just like any other poster on this board. That's where the real issue is. There's an anti Gavin agenda being pushed by trusted sources.

 

[Eagleton96]

The coaches wouldn't have started Wimsatt if they had a racist agenda. It's the fans that wanted Evan Simon and now Athan K. And it specifically refers to the QB position (aka the face of the team).

The fans were totally psyched about Gavin prior to having information from his on-field performance.

Ignore the lowest completion percentage in FBS (behind one of the best running games). Nah, must be racism. Ignore the lowest QB rating as a source of the frustration. Must be racism. Ignore all the other fan bases that ran white QBs with much better stats than Gavin out of town (showing that fans ride QBs all the time regardless of race). Nah. Must be racism.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

OMG. Fans making a scapegoat of a QB?!? That NEVER happens. How rare. Must be racism.

The racism angle here is ridiculous.

But to be clear, nobody is really scapegoating Gavin. It’s sort of the opposite. People are discounting the extent that Gavin is responsible for our achievement of bowl eligibility. We’re saying the credit he deserves most is for not doing too much to mess things up. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. It’s hard to jump up and down with excitement about the worst stats in college football.

 

[Eagleton96]

The guy that started this thread is on Richie's podcast and is seen as a trusted source when he's nothing more than a fan that's pushing his agenda just like any other poster on this board. That's where the real issue is. There's an anti Gavin agenda being pushed by trusted sources.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What's this agenda? Are you talking about bigotry? Or are you talking about someone that likes passing as his agenda?

I'll note that the NJ.com guys turned on Gavin and every other somewhat authoritative sources I can think of did as well.

 

[rutgersfan1766]

The fans were totally psyched about Gavin prior to having information from his on-field performance.

Ignore the lowest completion percentage in FBS (behind one of the best running games). Nah, must be racism. Ignore the lowest QB rating as a source of the frustration. Must be racism. Ignore all the other fan bases that ran white QBs with much better stats than Gavin out of town (showing that fans ride QBs all the time regardless of race). Nah. Must be racism.

I'm not the only one that thinks this. I'm just the only one not afraid to say it. Just like anyone else here is entitled to their belief, true or not. Nobody will ever know.

 

[rutgersfan1766]

The racism angle here is ridiculous.

But to be clear, nobody is really scapegoating Gavin. It’s sort of the opposite. People are discounting the extent that Gavin is responsible for our achievement of bowl eligibility. We’re saying the credit he deserves most is for not doing too much to mess things up. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. It’s hard to jump up and down with excitement about the worst stats in college basketball.

This is probably a better way to say it. But there are still people failing to give him credit and want to disparage what he did at every turn because of issues in the pass game.

 

[Eagleton96]

I'm not the only one that thinks this. I'm just the only one not afraid to say it. Just like anyone else here is entitled to their belief, true or not. Nobody will ever know.

This old liberal, former community organizer, can see plenty of evidence to support the conclusion that people turned on Gavin due to on-field performance, and that the level of fan and reporter/commentator frustration with him is par for the course for how fans deal with QBs.

You haven't provided any support for your accusation of racism as a motivator.

 

[NickRU714]

Listened to TKR podcast with that Minnesota guy.
Sounded like this new kid is a lot like the current kid.

The most troubling line when discussing last year was "he struggled when he was asked to succeed" or something like that.

Honestly - could be said about either QB option (Wimsatt or Athan).

 

[NickRU714]

Listened to TKR podcast with that Minnesota guy.
Sounded like this new kid is a lot like the current kid.

The most troubling line when discussing last year was "he struggled when he was asked to succeed" or something like that.

Honestly - could be said about either QB option (Wimsatt or Athan).

 

[Eagleton96]

Listened to TKR podcast with that Minnesota guy.
Sounded like this new kid is a lot like the current kid.

The most troubling line when discussing last year was "he struggled when he was asked to succeed" or something like that.

Honestly - could be said about either QB option (Wimsatt or Athan).

My take is that the Minnesota kid was 1) forced to pass and playing from behind with a weak D, 2) constantly under a lot of pressure due to a poor OL, 3) with a weak running game....and so he was asked to make really hard plays to win games.

Meanwhile, Wimsatt was in a completely favorable situation. He had time, protection, a run game, a solid D, and when he had to pass, everything was in his favor.

And the Minnesota kid had better passing stats despite all that.

 

[rutgersfan1766]

My take is that the Minnesota kid was 1) forced to pass and playing from behind with a weak D, 2) constantly under a lot of pressure due to a poor OL, 3) with a weak running game....and so he was asked to make really hard plays to win games.

Meanwhile, Wimsatt was in a completely favorable situation. He had time, protection, a run game, a solid D, and when he had to pass, everything was in his favor.

And the Minnesota kid had better passing stats despite all that.

Have to give credit where it's due. This might be the best pro Athan perspective in this whole thread.

 

[satnom]

WTF has this thread turned into.

My take: a portion of the RU fan base before season felt RU would win at most 4 games then when they saw team was competitive and Wimsatt was innacurate on short throws in games RU had a chance to pull upsets victories, then the issue was the offense was being held back from 7-10 wins by the second year starting qb who regardless of his passing yds, running yds and low turnovers was not as good as any qb in the transfer portal due to his inaccuracies.

Then you got Politi, rivals admins and want to be message board evaluators chiming in on how poor a qb Wimsatt is they would take a qb with identical #s, lost starting qb job on a sub 500 team with a slightly easier schedule over our starting qb.

I’m hoping there’s a qb competition in the spring and summer and that the best qb at RU plays and if Wimsatt wins out that he fixes his errant short field throws and leads the RU offense to 8-10 wins next season and that the same critics he has now will then complain that he’s not doing enough to lead RU to the college football playoff.

Expectations for the RU program are increasing and that’s a good thing.

GO RU

 

[Knight Shift]

I'm not the only one that thinks this. I'm just the only one not afraid to say it. Just like anyone else here is entitled to their belief, true or not. Nobody will ever know.

Good for you for speaking your mind on something controversial. Each person is entitled to their own beliefs. In this instance, in my humble opinion, "most" fans don't care about the race of the QB. They care about the QB who can win more games regardless of race.

This is probably a better way to say it. But there are still people failing to give him credit and want to disparage what he did at every turn because of issues in the pass game.

Maybe very few people. Most of the posts I have read seem to put value on Gavin's running ability and what that adds to the offense. Then again, I have a lot of people on ignore, so perhaps I am missing posts.

This old liberal, former community organizer, can see plenty of evidence to support the conclusion that people turned on Gavin due to on-field performance, and that the level of fan and reporter/commentator frustration with him is par for the course for how fans deal with QBs.

You haven't provided any support for your accusation of racism as a motivator.

Exactly right.
The lack of reps provided to Evan shows the coaches gave Gavin every opportunity to elevate his game over the course of the season. It was kind of interesting how Evan came in for the Wisconsin game when Gavin was getting checked for a possible concussion, executed perfectly, threw a TD pass, yet we never saw him in action again. Some could argue that they were too generous with Gavin.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I'm not the only one that thinks this. I'm just the only one not afraid to say it. Just like anyone else here is entitled to their belief, true or not. Nobody will ever know.

This is just not true.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Perhaps a nicer way of putting it is that there aren’t too many QBs that would have prevented our path to 6-6 this season. The defense was good enough. The OL was good enough. And Kyle was a stud. Some of our fans have been claiming Gavin’s rush ability made Kyle’s success possible. I’m not sure I buy that Kyle couldn’t have had a nice season with a pocket passer who threw more accurately but wasn’t as mobile. But even still, there are plenty of dual threat back up QBs that would’ve probably Led us to the same place right now at 6-6as long as they weren’t complete turnover machines. Any game manager could’ve gotten it done.

nicer perhaps but we're all adults, he's a paid athlete, the poster is making up shit about racism and on top of all of this, the kid absolutely sucks as a qb.

time to move

we won despite him, not because of him

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Exactly right.
The lack of reps provided to Evan shows the coaches gave Gavin every opportunity to elevate his game over the course of the season. It was kind of interesting how Evan came in for the Wisconsin game when Gavin was getting checked for a possible concussion, executed perfectly, threw a TD pass, yet we never saw him in action again. Some could argue that they were too generous with Gavin.

This was the strangest move of the season in my opinion. I often wonder what Greg would’ve done if we made the PAT and stopped Wisconsin instead of letting them march down the field for a TD on the next drive.

At 24-6, the only explanation I could come up with is Greg didn’t think we were making up 18 points in less than a quarter regardless and he was concerned about managing the locker room if Evan had another nice looking drive. I just can’t think of any other logical reason to go back to Gavin there.

 

[Knight Shift]

This was the strangest move of the season in my opinion. I often wonder what Greg would’ve done if we made the PAT and stopped Wisconsin instead of letting them march down the field for a TD on the next drive.

At 24-6, the only explanation I could come up with is Greg didn’t think we were making up 18 points in less than a quarter regardless and he was concerned about managing the locker room if Evan had another nice looking drive. I just can’t think of any other logical reason to go back to Gavin there.

Funny thing, I was a bit distracted as I was live at the Wisconsin game. We were in the stands on the opposite side of the field for the touchdown. I did not see the QB's number, and I mistakenly though that Sheppard was inserted into the game. The name of the QB does not matter to me. I would not have cared if they made one of the OL the QB, I just wanted to see Rutgers score touchdowns and win the game. I think most (99%) of the fans think the same way. Race has absolutely no place in this discussion. None. But some people feel they have to go there when they don't have anything else.

 

[jtung230]

My take is that the Minnesota kid was 1) forced to pass and playing from behind with a weak D, 2) constantly under a lot of pressure due to a poor OL, 3) with a weak running game....and so he was asked to make really hard plays to win games.

Meanwhile, Wimsatt was in a completely favorable situation. He had time, protection, a run game, a solid D, and when he had to pass, everything was in his favor.

And the Minnesota kid had better passing stats despite all that.

Is this a joke? Look at the stats for the games we lost. We couldn’t run the ball. The only exception was OSU. I can’t count the MD game since we gave up so many points early.

 

[needmorecowbell]

Dude people have been hard on every single starting QB here since 1869. The best player on the team has always been the backup qb. Remember "Free Rettig"?

Wimsatt had the lowest completion percentage in D1 last year. He deserves criticism.

Also 80% of the team is black, do you really think the coaches have a racist agenda?

I don’t think it is a race thing but I would say most of this board has ZERO ability to evaluate talent. Especially the loudest members.

 

[RUTGERS95]

he should be banned for even saying that

only racists see race in everything

 

[rutgersfan1766]

Is this a joke? Look at the stats for the games we lost. We couldn’t run the ball. The only exception was OSU. I can’t count the MD game since we gave up so many points early.

Run blocking was smoke and mirrors and crumbled when they faced the teams in November (Iowa and PSU especially had their DL camped in the backfield on rushing plays)

 

[sct1111]

Run blocking was smoke and mirrors and crumbled when they faced the teams in November (Iowa and PSU especially had their DL camped in the backfield on rushing plays)

I was a pretty big Gavin defender this year. I thought his running ability was a big deal and helped us win games. He even made some really impressive throws. But he just wasn't anywhere close to being consistent and he just didn't really get much better during the year throwing the ball. A sub 50% completion percentage is really bad in college football. If we can get a QB who is even 10% better with 2-3 years of eligibility it is probably worth it.

The race thing is just way out of left field. Have no idea where that came from.

Idk if Kaliakmakis is significantly better than Gavin. But we have a OC who has worked with both of them. I'd say he would know more than me or you.

 

[RUDeac]

Agree with this. They're about the same depending on your preference. The fact that some people are saying Athan is definitely better must be some reason I can't quite say out loud..

You are a sick man.

 

[rutgersfan1766]

I was a pretty big Gavin defender this year. I thought his running ability was a big deal and helped us win games. He even made some really impressive throws. But he just wasn't anywhere close to being consistent and he just didn't really get much better during the year throwing the ball. A sub 50% completion percentage is really bad in college football. If we can get a QB who is even 10% better with 2-3 years of eligibility it is probably worth it.

The race thing is just way out of left field. Have no idea where that came from.

Idk if Kaliakmakis is significantly better than Gavin. But we have a OC who has worked with both of them. I'd say he would know more than me or you.

Totally. Agree with this post. My issue has been with the OP and people piling on that Kaliakmanis is definitely better than Wimsatt which couldn't be further from the truth.

If you think it's a coin flip and a matter of preference fine, but their stats are about equal. I don't think it's definitive one way or the other at all. Maybe Gavin is better or maybe Athan is better.

People that think AK is definitively better have some other agenda. I'll stand by that.

There's a handful of people I talk to daily that feel the same way - that Athan isn't a guaranteed upgrade, but there are people in here talking like that.

 

[rutgersfan1766]

You are a sick man.

Athan is not definitely better than Gavin. Why is it being positioned as such then? Maybe he is or maybe he isn't but it's far from definitive.

 

[sct1111]

Totally. Agree with this post. My issue has been with the OP and people piling on that Kaliakmanis is definitely better than Wimsatt which couldn't be further from the truth.

If you think it's a coin flip and a matter of preference fine, but their stats are about equal. I don't think it's definitive one way or the other at all. Maybe Gavin is better or maybe Athan is better.

People that think AK is definitively better have some other agenda. I'll stand by that.

There's a handful of people I talk to daily that feel the same way - that Athan isn't a guaranteed upgrade, but there are people in here talking like that.

I would think Rutgers fans who don't want a black QB at the helm for racist reasons are extremely rare. This isn't Alabama.

If you listened to the podcast, Broadbent (the "Mike" I think you're talking about and Richie) talk about why and how he can be an upgrade. They talk about how he looked with Kirk his first year and how his team had a 13% drop rate which was 2nd worse in D1. They talked about how he wasn't used correctly last year with the new OC. So there are reasons why some say he's an upgrade.

 

[rutgersfan1766]

I would think Rutgers fans who don't want a black QB at the helm for racist reasons are extremely rare. This isn't Alabama.

If you listened to the podcast, Broadbent (the "Mike" I think you're talking about and Richie) talk about why and how he can be an upgrade. They talk about how he looked with Kirk his first year and how his team had a 13% drop rate which was 2nd worse in D1. They talked about how he wasn't used correctly last year with the new OC. So there are reasons why some say he's an upgrade.

Wimsatt was on his 3rd OC in as many years so he needs another year to show what he can do. I think he will be much better next year.

^ while I agree with what I wrote there that's pretty much the same excuse as saying a QB wasn't used properly. Either they have it or they don't.

 

[jtung230]

Run blocking was smoke and mirrors and crumbled when they faced the teams in November (Iowa and PSU especially had their DL camped in the backfield on rushing plays)

I wouldn’t call it smoke and mirrors. It’s not elite because those are elite defenses. Our OL was average, that’s a meaningful improvement over the previous year.

 

[sct1111]

Wimsatt was on his 3rd OC in as many years so he needs another year to show what he can do. I think he will be much better next year.

^ while I agree with what I wrote there that's pretty much the same excuse as saying a QB wasn't used properly. Either they have it or they don't.

I hope even if they bring in Kaliakmakis Gavin still gets a shot tbh. Maybe competition will be good. Doubt it though. If they bring him in he's probably the starter.

 

[Eagleton96]

This was the strangest move of the season in my opinion. I often wonder what Greg would’ve done if we made the PAT and stopped Wisconsin instead of letting them march down the field for a TD on the next drive.

At 24-6, the only explanation I could come up with is Greg didn’t think we were making up 18 points in less than a quarter regardless and he was concerned about managing the locker room if Evan had another nice looking drive. I just can’t think of any other logical reason to go back to Gavin there.

Managing the locker room is the only explanation (other than stubbornness) as that was the perfect opportunity to give another QB some run.

 

[Eagleton96]

Is this a joke? Look at the stats for the games we lost. We couldn’t run the ball. The only exception was OSU. I can’t count the MD game since we gave up so many points early.

I'm not sure what you are saying. We had a very potent rushing attack, the more so because most teams knew exactly what was coming and didn't have to defend the pass. Yes some teams, in part because they were good, and in part because we were a 1 trick pony offense that was easy to shut down if you had a decent front 7, shut us down. Doesn't change the main point of my comment at all.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Managing the locker room is the only explanation (other than stubbornness) as that was the perfect opportunity to give another QB some run.

He’s not historically stubborn about sticking to QBs. Switched all the time in the 1.0 era.

 

[jtung230]

I'm not sure what you are saying. We had a very potent rushing attack, the more so because most teams knew exactly what was coming and didn't have to defend the pass. Yes some teams, in part because they were good, and in part because we were a 1 trick pony offense that was easy to shut down if you had a decent front 7, shut us down. Doesn't change the main point of my comment at all.

Of course it does. You said GW was in a favorable position. We won all the games when it was favorable. We lost the game where we couldn’t run the ball or pass protect. The fact is these two QBs are comparable. Why make excuses?

 

[RAC93]

I'm not the only one here that thinks Mike has an agenda. If Athan was definitely better than Gavin then sign him up.

Can Athan put up the following stats?: 2.5K passer + 1K rusher + 22/7 TD:INT

If you think yes, then he should be at RU.

If you think no, then he's not that much better or worse than Gavin. It's a coin flip. But when "trusted" people like Mike continue to peddle their agenda that Athan is somehow definitely better it rubs me the wrong way.

Just going off stats it's a literal coin flip but it's being positioned here as Athan definitely better. If you can't see that then you're probably blinded.

You act as if Mike is the one controlling the upcoming visit for Athan to RU. Did Mike invite him on campus? Is Mike the one that may extend him an offer to come to RU? Think about that for a second. The reason he is coming here for a visit is the handiwork of Schiano and Ciarrocca. It’s not Mike’s agenda. Schiano’s and Ciarrocca’s agenda is to bring Athan in with the belief that he may offer an upgrade from Gavin. We shall see, but don’t get it twisted…….the coaches have an agenda so evidently they must be blinded with Gavin hate as well??? Or, could it maybe just possibly be that they want to bring in a QB who may be able to complete a higher percentage, a QB the coaches feel more confidence in and a QB who has experience with running Ciarrocca’s offense? Hmmmmm……..it must just be that the coaches hate Gavin, just like Mike does……unbelievable.

 

[RAC93]

Athan is not definitely better than Gavin. Why is it being positioned as such then? Maybe he is or maybe he isn't but it's far from definitive.

You’re correct, we’ll find out who is better as it is not definitive based upon their MERIT. But that doesn’t explain why you insinuated that Gavin’s race was a reason fans have issues with him as the starting QB. Why did you position it as such??? Also, fan/alumni opinion is meaningless, Greg and Kirk opinion is what matters and they are inviting Athan on campus, not a bunch of message board posters.

 

[Eagleton96]

Of course it does. You said GW was in a favorable position. We won all the games when it was favorable. We lost the game where we couldn’t run the ball or pass protect. The fact is these two QBs are comparable. Why make excuses?

I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'm talking about the QB. When you have the threat of a good run game, and good pass protection, which we did, it makes it easier for the QB to pass. Our OL and run game were better all year than Minnesota's. And we were playing from a big deficit much less. So that makes it easier for the QB. So when comparing season stats, season performance, it's important to take into account that Wimsatt was generally in a more favorable position for a passer than Minny guy.

 

[jtung230]

I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'm talking about the QB. When you have the threat of a good run game, and good pass protection, which we did, it makes it easier for the QB to pass. Our OL and run game were better all year than Minnesota's. And we were playing from a big deficit much less. So that makes it easier for the QB. So when comparing season stats, season performance, it's important to take into account that Wimsatt was generally in a more favorable position for a passer than Minny guy.

Minn rush 1793 yds
Rutger rush 1985 yds

KA rushing 94 yds
GW rushing 488 yds

now you know why Rutgers run game is so much better