Help with Doucoure and other scholarship count?

[bowlgoal]

I know we have to give Kiss an immediate scholarship even though he's not eligible until 2018. Would that be the same with Doucoure or would he not be on the bench until 2018? If he doesn't have a scholarship for 2017 and Johnson commits; am I correct that there would be one spot still left for 2017? And that if Jackson transfers; he would claim that last spot and also sit with Kiss and that would mean only 3 spots left for 2018? I think with my counting; if Johnson and Jackson commit and Corey somehow stayed for his senior year, we could possibly only have 2 additional spots for next year?

Sanders, baker, Mensah, Thiam, Eugene, Doucoure, Doorsan, johnson, Jackson, Kiss, Bullock

There's 2018 if all returned. 11 scholarships with two to give. Maybe that's why Mathis is on campus now?

 

[knights1212]

That is correct. If we should get Johnson and Jackson we would have 13 for 2017-18 not counting Doucoure. We would gain 3 for 2018-19 by losing Freeman, Sa and Williams. One would go to Doucoure leaving us two others unless Sanders or someone else would leave early.

 

[biazza38]

That is correct. If we should get Johnson and Jackson we would have 13 for 2017-18 not counting Doucoure. We would gain 3 for 2018-19 by losing Freeman, Sa and Williams. One would go to Doucoure leaving us two others unless Sanders or someone else would leave early.

Long story short, we currently have 2 open schollies going into today? I lost track

 

[Scarlet Knut]

If the guys we have a shot at now are as talented as we hear, then we need to take them and worry about how many are left later.

 

[ScarletDave]

I agree with above. Basketball is easily built once you show you can WIN .. so the focus must be WIN NOW and then you can always add players. Not like football where you HAVE fo build for 3-4 years down the road

 

[Scarlet Shack]

This is our roster right now

Sr (3)-Freeman/Williams/Sa
Jr (3)-Sanders/Doorson/Mensah
So (2)-Thiam/Onamyuri
Fr (4)-Baker/Johnson/Bullock (Rfr)/Kiss (must sit out)

Incoming class of 2018-Doucoure

Assuming we don't get Vincent Jackson from UConn and we do get a 5th year guy with the last ship for 2017-2018...that means we have FOUR to give for the class of 2018, with Doucore getting one of them

What do we need with the remaining four scholarships
1.) Shooting Guard
2.) Small Forward
3.) Power Forward
4..) Center

 

[jrh51]

This is our roster right now

Sr (3)-Freeman/Williams/Sa
Jr (3)-Sanders/Doorson/Mensah
So (2)-Thiam/Onamyuri
Fr (4)-Baker/Johnson/Bullock (Rfr)/Kiss (must sit out)

Incoming class of 2018-Doucoure

Assuming we don't get Vincent Jackson from UConn and we do get a 5th year guy with the last ship for 2017-2018...that means we have FOUR to give for the class of 2018, with Doucore getting one of them

What do we need with the remaining four scholarships
1.) Shooting Guard
2.) Small Forward
3.) Power Forward
4..) Center

Thanks for laying this out for everyone. Just a few notes.

1 - Kiss will be a RS Sophomore.
2 - It's *Vance* Jackson
3 - Recruiting a PG is a top priority for 2018... Again, it's no guarantee that Corey comes back for his Senior (let alone Junior) season, and Souf isn't projected to be a starter at any point in his tenure.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I still think we are in the stage where we just need really good basketball players. positions are secondary.

 

[jrh51]

I still think we are in the stage where we just need really good basketball players. positions are secondary.

100% agreed.

 

[higgins3]

I think Geo Baker will see a lot of time handling the ball. In general, from the looks of Doucoure, Johnson, and Baker, it will be nice to have some willing passers.

If the staff lands Mathis, the program will be ready to compete at a high level in the 1-3 year future.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I think Geo Baker will see a lot of time handling the ball. In general, from the looks of Doucoure, Johnson, and Baker, it will be nice to have some willing passers.

If the staff lands Mathis, the program will be ready to compete at a high level in the 1-3 year future.

Let's see these kids play against B1G talent before making any assessment.

 

[higgins3]

Let's see these kids play against B1G talent before making any assessment.

You are no fun! Predictions can be made with a small level of certainty to keep people interested in the program excited. Did you see the Lyle kid from Ohio State quit the program?Another out.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

Thanks for laying this out for everyone. Just a few notes.

1 - Kiss will be a RS Sophomore.
2 - It's *Vance* Jackson
3 - Recruiting a PG is a top priority for 2018... Again, it's no guarantee that Corey comes back for his Senior (let alone Junior) season, and Souf isn't projected to be a starter at any point in his tenure.

Kiss redshirts this year (17-18)...and has three years remaining after so he lines up with the Baker and Johnson in the same class graduating class of 2021....which is why the groupings are correct

 

[Scarlet Shack]

I still think we are in the stage where we just need really good basketball players. positions are secondary.

Yes and no...sure you take best we can recruit regardless of positon but we do need some balance between front and back court

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

We need 4 starting caliber recruits in the next 2 classes (2018-2019).....I always believe that if you land 2 starters and 2 complimentary players in each 4 player class you get, you have a chance to improve.

I consider a starting caliber recruit, as someone that is capable but not always a starter as a freshman (certainly a starter as a sophomore) or someone that factors into your 9-10 player rotation most nights

Jackson and Mathis are intriguing because they both immediately factor into your starting lineup or at worse are in your Top 8 rotation in November 2018....Along with Baker, Kiss and Doucoure, you would have 4 to 5 of those types of players in the 2017-18 recruiting class.

 

[bowlgoal]

We clearly need a point guard. I do not think we should count on Corey returning for his senior year and I wouldn't want to risk not having another option for 2018. If he does come back, it just means we have another good guard in the rotation. It's a shame that we really have to be forward looking with our program towards 2018-2019 but we have no choice. I want guys like Williams, Freeman and Sa to prove us all wrong and get to post season and if they do; fantastic. But if they don't, we will get there. Vance Jackson should come here and Corey should stay and if we add Mathis, I think that would help with a few more guys. It means 2 four stars in Mathis and Doucoure, Corey who was a four star and Jackson a former 4 star plus adding Kiss who o think has sick potential. If Corey stayed and the other pieces came together.

2018

Sanders, Baker, Mathis, Souf, Thiam
Johnson, Doucoure, Doorsan
Kiss, Omayuri

Add three more. Or with Bullock, add two more. Just not sure where he fits in?

 

[Scarlet Shack]

Okay since I'm in a good mood ...here is what I really hope for

1.) get Jackson
2.) stay healthy in 2018-2019 and play with 11 on the way to 18-15 and a NiT bid
3.) class of 2018 is three strong with doucoure, Mathis and a JUCO clone of Freeman for two more years
4.) Corey stays for senior year to play with this roster and lead RU to the NCAAs and a first round draft pick

2018-2019 line up
PG sanders (sr)/baker (so)/mensah (sr)
SG Mathis (fr)/Kiss (so)/Bullock (so)
SF Jackson (so)/Thiam (jr)/onamuyri (jr)
PF Freeman clone (jr)/Johnson (so)
C. Doucoure (Fr)/doorson (sr)

And have three ships to give out to class of 2019 for super star point guard, a center and another big guy

 

[ColonelRutgers]

Translation: Pikiell needs to do a HELLUVA lot better than he's done so far in his first 14 months of building a roster.

I am worried at what I've seen so far from this staff. The recruiting results we've gotten so far are not good enough for this league and that's being kind. We aren't leapfrogging anyone in this league with with the kind of players they're attracting. We need top shelf players signed, sealed and delivered in the November signing period. Multiple guys that can step in play at this level right away. Guys that can SCORE. And guys that can SHOOT. I'm not going to hit the panic button YET but I don't like what I've seen so far.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

View embedded media

Translation: Pikiell needs to do a HELLUVA lot better than he's done so far in his first 14 months of building a roster.

I am worried at what I've seen so far from this staff. The recruiting results we've gotten so far are not good enough for this league and that's being kind. We aren't leapfrogging anyone in this league with with the kind of players they're attracting. We need top shelf players signed, sealed and delivered in the November signing period. Multiple guys that can step in play at this level right away. Guys that can SCORE. And guys that can SHOOT. I'm not going to hit the panic button YET but I don't like what I've seen so far.

Really? Can we table this conversation for 18 months from now? Seriously ???

You just said the guy has been on the job for FOURTEEN months. That made the class of 2016 impossible to get anything but last minute stuff and the class of 2017 they were really really behind

The class of 2018 has already yielded a 4 star power forward in doucoure.

The class of 2018 is the first class that the staff really had a chance to evaluate properly and even then we are behind in the relationship building...the class of 2019 is really the first class they get to fully evaluate and build recruiting relationships with right

I legit give him a B- grade relative grade for his recruiting so far a C grade as an absolute grade

Seels said it right...if doucoure reclassified ...the class of 2017 all of the sudden because a top half of the big ten recruiting class in year one ...and a B grade as an absolute grade

Next 18 months are important

 

[ColonelRutgers]

Really? Can we table this conversation for 18 months from now? Seriously ???

You just said the guy has been on the job for FOURTEEN months. That made the class of 2016 impossible to get anything but last minute stuff and the class of 2017 they were really really behind

The class of 2018 has already yielded a 4 star power forward in doucoure.

The class of 2018 is the first class that the staff really had a chance to evaluate properly and even then we are behind in the relationship building...the class of 2019 is really the first class they get to fully evaluate and build recruiting relationships with right

I legit give him a B- grade relative grade for his recruiting so far a C grade as an absolute grade

Seels said it right...if doucoure reclassified ...the class of 2017 all of the sudden because a top half of the big ten recruiting class in year one ...and a B grade as an absolute grade

Next 18 months are important

18 months from NOW? No, we cannot table it that long. He completely threw a scholarship away on Bullock last year and brought in no game changers in this 3 man class by everyone's account. You can't wait 3 years before STARTING to show recruiting progress. The upcoming early signing period means everything. Can't have an entire squad of roster fillers that might do one thing okay. We need talent. We need offense. We need immediate contributors.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

18 months from NOW? No, we cannot table it that long. He completely threw a scholarship away on Bullock last year and brought in no game changers in this 3 man class by everyone's account. You can't wait 3 years before STARTING to show recruiting progress. The upcoming early signing period means everything. Can't have an entire squad of roster fillers that might do one thing okay. We need talent. We need offense. We need immediate contributors.

Depends on what your expectation for progress is....and how you build a program and not a one year team

In his first year he managed to identify and
He brought in

This and onamuyri that was better than Laurent At the SF spot

He brought in Sa and Gettys who was better than diallo and doorson in the Four and five spot

We don't know about bullock yet.

But right now based on last year on little evaluation time ..this staff has shown ability to improve what we had left over

The early track record has my trust that the know what they are doing

Got to see what happens but I like the trajectory

 

[seels2662]

This is our roster right now

Sr (3)-Freeman/Williams/Sa
Jr (3)-Sanders/Doorson/Mensah
So (2)-Thiam/Onamyuri
Fr (4)-Baker/Johnson/Bullock (Rfr)/Kiss (must sit out)

Incoming class of 2018-Doucoure

Assuming we don't get Vincent Jackson from UConn and we do get a 5th year guy with the last ship for 2017-2018...that means we have FOUR to give for the class of 2018, with Doucore getting one of them

What do we need with the remaining four scholarships
1.) Shooting Guard
2.) Small Forward
3.) Power Forward
4..) Center

Hey Shack, I do not think we need a small forward...this is just an educated guess, but I think Pike is going a three guard set, with the third guard being a tall guard. In all his recruits he has only gotten Omoyuri that could be considered a SF and he could really be a small PF. Meanwhile he has gotten Bullock, Thiam, Baker, Kiss and is still trying to get Vance Jackson and Mathis. Either our SG spot will be 6 deep or we are playing a three guard set.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

Seels

Thiam is a SF (and I'm pretty sure he would be a stretch PF if his body fills out fast) and onamuyri is a SF playing some PF

So we really need a 2 and a 3. Kiss is one of these. Baker could end up as the PG

If we don't get Jackson ....we definetly need a 2 and 3 with two of the four ships we would have for 2018....

 

[RUJMM78]

Seels

Thiam is a SF (and I'm pretty sure he would be a stretch PF if his body fills out fast) and onamuyri is a SF playing some PF

So we really need a 2 and a 3. Kiss is one of these. Baker could end up as the PG

If we don't get Jackson ....we definetly need a 2 and 3 with two of the four ships we would have for 2018....

Rutgers needs shooters/scorers at the 2 and 3 positions.The ideal scenario would be to bring in a 2017 5th year shooting guard followed by another shooting guard and small forward for 2018.These recruits need to be difference makers more so than complementary type players.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I'll say it again...the staff going after transfers for the 2018 class, to me, puts up a BIG yellow flag. The flag is certainly not RED. Perhaps Pikiell is being realistic that he can't land a big class of HS players.

Again with Kiss
YEAR 1-empty scholarship
YEAR 2-plays
YEAR 3-plays
YEAR 4-player option with decision made in April after HS guys are already signed

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Let me add if a Kiss type does work out AND our program doesn't take off there would be a high probability that the player would take his 4th year and play on a tournament team.

 

[knights1212]

We are well aware of that possibility but I for one believe in Steve Pikiell and our staff. This is a totally different regime than our last few coaching staffs.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

Rutgers needs shooters/scorers at the 2 and 3 positions.The ideal scenario would be to bring in a 2017 5th year shooting guard followed by another shooting guard and small forward for 2018.These recruits need to be difference makers more so than complementary type players.

I agree with this....but the risk is if we take a 5th year shooting guard for 2017-2018 we are thin up front. We only have four guys (yes I know Eugene O can play some PF minutes) and right now Doorson is reportedly in a boot so his off season is at least being slowed down...we are thin there if one guy goes down

 

[seels2662]

Seels

Thiam is a SF (and I'm pretty sure he would be a stretch PF if his body fills out fast) and onamuyri is a SF playing some PF

So we really need a 2 and a 3. Kiss is one of these. Baker could end up as the PG

If we don't get Jackson ....we definetly need a 2 and 3 with two of the four ships we would have for 2018....

Agree to disagree, Thiam is no way a SF, he doesn't play at all like a SF, hes a guard who happens to be 6'9". Next year he's going to attempt probably a hundred threes and never see the paint.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

I'll say it again...the staff going after transfers for the 2018 class, to me, puts up a BIG yellow flag. The flag is certainly not RED. Perhaps Pikiell is being realistic that he can't land a big class of HS players.

Again with Kiss
YEAR 1-empty scholarship
YEAR 2-plays
YEAR 3-plays
YEAR 4-player option with decision made in April after HS guys are already signed

Greene

Of course you keep recruiting....you swing for a grand slam...and you keep going on the next level down just in case

There is NO doubt that the class of 2018 needs to be a huge one. Off to a great start with Doucoure...and need to get another 4 star and two other prospects that have good ceilings even if they aren't four star types.


.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

We are well aware of that possibility but I for one believe in Steve Pikiell and our staff. This is a totally different regime than our last few coaching staffs.

Different than the last regime.

FHJ worked his butt off and had relationships and connections.
Rice recruited and coached, but had major character flaw
Jordan was a real nice guy

I like Pikiell A LOT. He did a great job changing the culture. I really want to see his succeed as a person and as a guy who seems to treat players with utmost respect. I have a lot of faith in the X and Os. It also seems like he is running things as a CEO and has small things in order. S&C, nutrition, etc.

However so far (ONLY 13 MONTHS in) I have seen NO evidence he can recruit. I have also seen NO evidence he can't recruit.

 

[higgins3]

Agree to disagree, Thiam is no way a SF, he doesn't play at all like a SF, hes a guard who happens to be 6'9". Next year he's going to attempt probably a hundred threes and never see the paint.

Any player that is 180 pounds is not going to jump out at you as a small forward. Once Thiam adds the weight, the potential is there.

It is looked at, and has been said from board members, Knights1212 that Pikiell sees Baker as a point guard as well. He will handle the ball at least 25-30% of possessions.

The program is heading in the right direction. I am just sitting back and enjoying what is happening.

 

[RUinFla]

To be fair, Colonel Rutgers--exactly what did Rutgers have going for it to attract players last year? We cratered in 2015-16, and had bad karma dating back a decade. Ideal for negative recruiting by any school pursuing a player we hoped to land. This year showed promise, but there are a whole lot of schools in a whole lot of strong conferences that can tell recruits their prospects of playing in the NCAA's--or even the NIT--are far superior; the coaches are better known; the roster is stronger; the facilities are there now--even, in many cases, the weather is better. You are a recruiter for K-Mart, trying to land decent management trainees and going up against Walmart, Amazon, etc. Tell me about it.
TL

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Forget what number Thiam is. Irrelevant!

The question is with the 4 guys he is on the court with is there a natural opponent he can guard. If we are facing a team with 2 quick guards there could be an issue having a lineup of (as an example)..Sanders Issa Eugene Freeman Sa

 

[higgins3]

Forget what number Thiam is. Irrelevant!

The question is with the 4 guys he is on the court with is there a natural opponent he can guard. If we are facing a team with 2 quick guards there could be an issue having a lineup of (as an example)..Sanders Issa Eugene Freeman Sa

Its not a number, its a position that requires a certain skill set. You said Rutgers has never had a wing countless times. Same thing. That is the coaches job. Thiam guarded a lot of guards this year. He has intangibles that help on defense a lot. It is the reason he was on the floor. There are a couple of multi positional players. Coaches love those kids and they help build a program.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Its not a number, its a position that requires a certain skill set. You said Rutgers has never had a wing countless times. Same thing.

Think more a 6'5''+ guy who could shoot and be at worst an average defender. But yes you are right

 

[higgins3]

Think more a 6'5''+ guy who could shoot and be at worst an average defender. But yes you are right

In the future, with the staff still going after Mathis hard and him being the most top priority recruit the program has seen since the start of the new era, you could easily see them going three guards confidently. They will have a little versatility there. It all depends though. Do you like the new center? I like his game. Quietly very confident.

 

[ColonelRutgers]

To be fair, Colonel Rutgers--exactly what did Rutgers have going for it to attract players last year? We cratered in 2015-16, and had bad karma dating back a decade. Ideal for negative recruiting by any school pursuing a player we hoped to land. This year showed promise, but there are a whole lot of schools in a whole lot of strong conferences that can tell recruits their prospects of playing in the NCAA's--or even the NIT--are far superior; the coaches are better known; the roster is stronger; the facilities are there now--even, in many cases, the weather is better. You are a recruiter for K-Mart, trying to land decent management trainees and going up against Walmart, Amazon, etc. Tell me about it.
TL

I don't disagree with a thing you said. I'm just saying that this staff needs to find a way to overcome the negatives and sell a new positive message or they are going to fail. Fourteen months in, I'm not optimistic that they are doing that.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Do you like the new center? I like his game. Quietly very confident.

I'll let you know in November. Not in love with recruiting under the radar types in California. I do like intelligent players.

 

[cyrock3]

B-ball recruiting rankings aren't the be-all & end-all.

Coaching & scheme are very important in this sport.