I get what you are saying, BUT I think we don't excel at making them because of the talent, not the system. The system is getting us the looks and the attempts. Remember, my #'s above are in conference only, so not built up by any fluff on the schedule. Defense is the teams biggest issue, then the well roundedness of the talent. How much of the defense is on coaching is a very valid argument.
Here is the reality on "running an offense ".....
- Thread starter NewJerseyHawk
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you point to the issue of putting the ball in the net, which is correct, but its deeper than that. its also about creating high quality looks.
Great Offense + Great Players = Alabama, Purdue, Uconn, Auburn
Bad Offense + Great Player= most of Ace Baileys shots (yes they often still go in!)
Great Offense + Meh Player = Princeton, Iowa, etc
Great Offense + Great Players = Alabama, Purdue, Uconn, Auburn
Bad Offense + Great Player= most of Ace Baileys shots (yes they often still go in!)
Great Offense + Meh Player = Princeton, Iowa, etc
Regardless of the total stats for the year or homogenized averages for individual players, you have to find a way to win each individual game.
Iowa is a good example. Both teams took 25 threes, we made 10 and Iowa made 7 of them. They only outscored us by 1 point at the foul line. Yet they beat us by 11 points.
So the difference was in the fact that Iowa took more shots by getting more turnovers and more offensive rebounds, and by running a more efficient offense that outscored us by 19 from 2-point range.
Iowa is a good example. Both teams took 25 threes, we made 10 and Iowa made 7 of them. They only outscored us by 1 point at the foul line. Yet they beat us by 11 points.
So the difference was in the fact that Iowa took more shots by getting more turnovers and more offensive rebounds, and by running a more efficient offense that outscored us by 19 from 2-point range.
Don’t forget ‘pass’ as a missing talent too, even Ace and Harper. Both shot hunters like all the rest, probably the most so. Harper is a downhill scorer primarily, and passing to others for perimeter looks is a rare thing for him.
There are only 2 people on our roster that can create their own shot with regularity. A “real” system would allow for the rest not to rely on iso and an athletic advantage to get a realistic opportunity to score. There aren’t many on our roster that are going to out athletic anyone. But we do have shooters that can produce if given the “right” opportunity. Either coming off of a screen, spotting up or beating someone threw off ball movement. Our offense is stand in the corner and watching one person come off horns and hope that person either has a shot or gets so far into the shot clock that he has to pass for a last ditch attempt. We have multiple transfers that produces in “real motion systems”. Be it they are at lower levels but Princeton, San Diego, eastern Michigan, Merrimack all pretty much run a semblance of a motion offense.
And I agree Pike did a horrible job filling in the roster this year. Dercack,PJ and Acuff all have similar skill sets and fill a similar role. You take 1 or 2 but not all 3.
Your shot selection is a product of the offensive system you run. It’s not much more complicated than that. We dont run an offensive system that designs clean high efficiency shots.
Been saying pretty much the same thing for years. Can you imagine how much more productive Geo, RHJ, Mulcahy, Caleb, and later Cam could have been if they ran a motion offense. Not to mention how much more efficient the supporting cast would have been.
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Really?
How do you design offensive sets when you have 2 or 3 way below 30% three point shooters on the floor for most of 40 minutes a night, and they command no legit respect …so opponents sag waaay off them , are in better position to play help defense , better position to deny entry passsee or clog passing lanes , and better position to hedge and help on top ball screens (a huge part of the sets we run)
You can hide one in the corenr …or the opposite wing …but when you have multiple sub-pat outside shooters …it’s a real problem
This is why we have these guys chucking them up anyways. You HAVE to take them …even if they are going in at 27% instead of 37%….othwrwise the offense stagnated even more.
But that’s 10 shots a game …and you are giving up 3 points per game (a little less, as you will get more OREB attempts and get a few OREB)…but over 35 games …those 80-100 points you didn’t get from shooting from those spots…Will cost you 3-5 games along the way
I’ll also say that the opposite is true
As well. The limited guys who can shoot over the years That can’t sdore any other way (PJ hayes and martini on this year) ….they don’t shoot the percentage they should because they also are guarded tighter because they are zero threat to post , and zero threat to put the ball on the floor and drive
We are really really easy to defend with these roster limitations …no matter what pike draws up
We have had more our open shots this year than this year than recent years …more becaue ace and Dylan command double team attention.
But we have had several games …that we simple loss due to poor shooting . Missing open shots
And not many where we won “outshooting trams”
I do beleive this is on pike and staff …not becsuse the offensice coaching issues…but in the recruting evaluation and lack of recruting ….
3 classes
Jaden jones /jalen miler
Derek Simpson /antonio chol/antoine wolfolk
Gavin Griffths/Jmike
We have Jmike from three classes
And from the portal to make up for this …not close to enough
Spenser
Fernandes/Awill/Jwill/ogoble
Martini/hayes/acuff/derkack
plus ….if you look at the game stats
I count two games we won by hitting 40% from three that was the difference in the game
At Nebraska
At northestersn
And I count these games when we took a lot of three, three that were mostly open ….and didn’t bot them thsr had we had a 37% shooting game …we probably win
Alabama
Texas A&M
Michigan state
Michigan
At Maryland
But more telling …is that we only had a couple of games where we shot it at 40% or above
We have guys just missing wide open shots at too high a rste
Sure …can the sets be a LITTLE better to compensate (I argue that decision making in the existing set fixes that more)
But , at the end of the day …it’s who we have the court is the bigger offensive issue
Can only make chicken salad out of chicken …not going to end up with filet mignon…..
I count two games we won by hitting 40% from three that was the difference in the game
At Nebraska
At northestersn
And I count these games when we took a lot of three, three that were mostly open ….and didn’t bot them thsr had we had a 37% shooting game …we probably win
Alabama
Texas A&M
Michigan state
Michigan
At Maryland
But more telling …is that we only had a couple of games where we shot it at 40% or above
We have guys just missing wide open shots at too high a rste
Sure …can the sets be a LITTLE better to compensate (I argue that decision making in the existing set fixes that more)
But , at the end of the day …it’s who we have the court is the bigger offensive issue
Can only make chicken salad out of chicken …not going to end up with filet mignon…..
With all this said, Dylan did nothing to recognize the lack of 3 point shooting and did not drive and/or dish nearly as much as he should have. Lots of standing around perimeter… by everyone…waiting to take a 3 they will more times than not, miss, instead of exploiting midrange, which Ace did occasionally
If you run a true offensive system that mitigates the risks of your roster and takes advantage of their skill sets you don’t have to hide someone in the corner. Our offense now is one person creates a shot and four people watch. The data supplied in the first post in this thread solidifies what is said above. Teams that historically been at the top of the standings in shooting statistics are not the most athletic team. They are system based programs. The Iowas, Purdue’s wisconsins of the world. They have no athletic advantage over anyone else in the league. They run a system that gets their players open for clean shots.
You said we have more open shots this year due to double teams. Where are these shots coming? Mostly in last resort situations outside the flow with little time in the shot clock.
You hit on what has been said by myself and others in this thread Pike did a horrific job with roster management and creation. He took way too many players with the duplicative skill set. But much of the inadequacy could have been dealt with if we run something other than iso looks.
I miss the long novels we used to get on why Mag was a terrible player, why 2023-24 was going to be our best team to date and all of us were too foolish to see it, and why when Pike got off defense and finally got with the modern offensive game in 24-25 we’d see a lot of wins and we had no reason for concern in the summer of 24. Good times.
Don't forget we'd be better once one dimensional Cam left and Gavin arrived
I am not defending pike here Xs and Os on offense ….but what do you want us to run that will create better looks with the personnel we have ???
I’m being serious here …
the space thsr our poor shooters are given really crowds the rest of the court …
Amd we don’t have guys who really move well without the basketball . You see a guy like Sanford from Iowa …it’s the ability to be agile and balanced moving off the screens to get open …and then get the shot off quick. I do not see anyone on the team outside of Dylan and Ace with that atheltic ability and cordinatoon to do that …..
can we do some different things on sets to be better offensively ??? Yes ….but at the end of the day , we can have fran Mac or Greg guard or Matt painter come in….and I don’t know wha they are running for this team when it has this much of its roster Incapable or hitting above 33% from three …and outside of Dykan and ace , guys who can’t do anything but shoot threes
This is both a jimmy and joes issue AND and Xs and OS issue
But it’s more jimmy and joes being the issue …..
I think the more you stick with someone and don't substitute every two minutes the better their 3-point percentage is likely to be. MD (your example) plays their starters an average of 35 minutes per game which might contribute to their higher 3 Point percentages. Pike doesn't stick with a hot hand, Acuff being an example vs. Iowa.
A simple motion offense with proper spacing would be sufficient to satisfy any of your concerns. They are not difficult offenses to install or run. Most of these guys come in running these concepts from bitty basketball through high school and aau.
It's not a more Jimmy and Joe's issue.
Fran or Greg or Painter wouldn't have these Jimmy and Joe's playing a prominent part in the first place.
HC Pike ecruited these Jimmy and Joe's because they fit his Xs and Os on offense (iso heavy and minimal focus in shooting).
He's not saddled with all these guys who were historically great shooters but they can't shoot now in our system.
He's saddled with bad shooters who are still bad shooters.
If HC Pike wanted to play multiple guys who could shoot and stetch the floor, he would have recruited multiple guys who could shoot and stretch the floor.
Ace and Dylan have hit the wall hard...especially Dylan. Pike played these guys too much and not too little.
Pike recruited Martini and Hayes. I think he wants guys that shoot. Problem is the guys that can shoot can't play D and they guys that play D are wretched shooters. He hasn't been able to get guys that do both.
Those same offenses are easy to defend period. And a lot easier to defend when you have to sub 33% three point shooters on the floor
The game is a lot more complex than that. Go put on a Rutgers game under bob Wenzel ….you will see how much simpler the game was then . The stuff going on the court is a lot more complex, and being run by bigger and faster atheltes making it crowed
A sinple motion offense isn’t fixing this
Please show me who we passed on that fit this …please.
We didn’t settle for what we settled on for the last three classes before the class of 2024 out of desire . We missed on Jaylen Blakes. We missed on Desmond Claude. We missed on mark Armstrong. Corey Floyd. Rashol Diggins. Jaylen Pierce . Mongolian Mike I could keep going ….
We tried to get those Guys and more …
We didn’t get them and whar we got was Jaden jones, jalen miller , chol,
Simpson , wolfolk c, Griffths and Jmike
Yeah I am sooo sorry that your precious Spencer left....LMAO.....I also agreed that going with Gavin was a better short and long term play and Gavin didn't pan out....not the 1st time I'll be wrong but you have TWO comments out of at least 50 other correct ones.....I'm shooting a much higher percentage than most here by a LOT.......my 3 point shooting is pretty good.....
You on the other hand are doing what you should do....read and follow what I post, because we both know it's what matters and correct....OR are you one of the Ivy League proponents hyping up Martini this offseason......did I miss on that one.....??
Spencer was almost 2 years ago my friend, I was also all in on Jaden Jones, RHJ, Mathis, Geo Baker, Myles Johnson and had to talk fans off the ledge when we landed Caleb McConnell over Tai Strickland many years ago.....some misses along the way, but a lot more hits.....
I'm sure you will respond soon enough and twist someone else out of context, it's what fans do best when they can't win.....
This makes HC Pike look even worse then.
So HC Pike wants to prioritize 3pt shooting but he's been just a failure at getting those players?
I thought he was just a failure at his offensive scheme and player preference. But good at getting those players (for his bad scheme).
Turns out he has a good scheme - he just keeps failing at getting the players?
3pt shooting % last 3 years:
22-23: 32.2% (13th of 14)
23-24: 29.2% (13th of 14)
24-25: 33.3% (11th of 18)
Hey, poor Jalen Miller scored 23 the other night. We didn't give him enough time! (I'm kidding)
You probably bat about 50%, and that's with saying three different things in your epic posts. Either way, keep posting, I don't need posters to be right, just like opinions.
Nope, I'm the guy that was called negative all off season because Acuff was the only pick up I liked. Hated the Martini pick up for anything other than a back up 4ish role. No idea what you thought, but if you were against it, we agreed.
Purdue/Iowa/Nova run a very simple motion offense. Yes they can get complex but their principles and what is run 80% of the time is simple and fundamental.
You think those offenses are easy to defend?
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According to your chart, Michigan State guards only have 5 more made 3s than ours. Yet MSU is 20-5 . By the way, they definitely do run an offense
50%....???.....i wasn't responding specifically to anyone but there's a pattern of chasing the answers when they've already been provided.
I dont need anyone to say Hawk was right.....I'm just providing the obvious information in most cases....
What is ironic about things are 2 basic and dumb arguments about running an offense and Pike.
A) The same fans will complain about all of the recruiting misses and how talent starved the roster has been and Pike’s recruiting needs to improve dramatically.....which if they STOP right there, I'd have no issues....but it doesn't stop there....
B) The same fans who complain about the recruiting not bring good enough (which essentially is talent) then turn around and say, "why doesn't Pike run an offense ", he needs to "bring in an offensive assistant ", .....as if RU can put Jalen Miller, Antonio Chol, Antione Woolfork, Derek Simpson and Gavin Griffiths on the floor vs other B1G rosters and win 10 to 12 B1G games and make the NCAAs every year.
I donf think fans can cry about the offense, when RU is not flush with NIL cash AND think any random 3* players can compete with other skilled and in most cases, more talented (and expensive) players.
And here's the kicker of it all......some of those same fans. Now want to claim that there’s not a talent issue, but the top 4 players on this years roster (to me) are freshman....OR at worse 4 out of 5 players, depending on what JMIKE or JWill plays like on certain nights.
Now that RU can get away from the Adidas disaster, I don't see as many hurdles in recruiting as before.....it doesn't mean NIL is not going to be the most important factor, but there's literally NO chance to compete for NCAAs, with Adidas and limited NIL funds. With Nike, you have a wider pool of AAU programs to align with nationally and we have a B1G profile.
Disagree with this if you like.....
Top 7 of B1G Top 9 are Nike.
Top 9 in Big East are Nike (Depaul is also Nike, and Seton Hall is Under Armour)
Top 7 of the current Top 9 in Big 12 are Nike
9 of the Top 11 ACC schools are Nike
13 out of 16 SEC schools are Nike (Auburn is currently Under Armour, but will be going Nike in 2026....only Texas A&M (Tons of NIL) is Adidas and South Carolina, who is very competitive, even while winless now, is Under Armour.
There are certain recruiting obstacles and random exceptions, but we don't have Dylan or Ace without their Nike alignment or the 2024 and 2025 classes, without the fact we were switching to Nike.
Wisconsin is Under Armour in the B1G and not a big AAU reliant program, sort of a dinosaur in the recruit and develop program, and Maryland is Under Armour, because the UA CEO is a Maryland alum and the biggest donor.
I'm sure someone will pick apart this as well, or say "It's not 100% true".....I'm just noting what's "most likely going to happen", when your outside the Nike umbrella in hoops recruiting.
MSU also has 11 out of 13 players on their roster as 4 or 5* players.....duh.....LMAO
And, you never know, if we actually ran an offense, we might actually get better looks from the perimeter. Just a thought
I don't really pay attention to most of who posts what opinion, but I agree with your overall point above (I believe its your point) that this is not an offense issue, its a coach/recruiting fit issue.
On the Nike front, I believe you. I don't care, I personally like Adidas gear better, but you and others say being Nike is pretty important. Question I have, even if we will be wearing Nike, does RU get the Nike credit if their contract isn't w Nike?
Agreed. And a while ago. But I can’t blame Pike for his usage. That level of recruit you’d think you could get 31 mpg out of him
Dylan keeps getting sick and hurt, not sure that's the same as smacking a wall but the same effect I guess.
I'll consider stopping my complaints about Pike not running an offense when I see Harper and Bailey run one pick and roll.
For years, we wasted the entirety of the shot clock running a three-man Harlem Globetrotters weave at the top of the key. And we complained. So then they just stopped doing that altogether and instead now we just pass the ball around the perimeter wasting the entirety of the shot clock. Of course, the primary problem is that when a team passes the ball around the perimeter, it is generally because it is trying to get the ball in an advantageous position to pass it to a player near the basket ... but we don't have any players who can score at the basket, other teams know this, so it is generally just passing the ball around the three-point line to waste time.
We don't play offensive basketball with a purpose.
For years, we wasted the entirety of the shot clock running a three-man Harlem Globetrotters weave at the top of the key. And we complained. So then they just stopped doing that altogether and instead now we just pass the ball around the perimeter wasting the entirety of the shot clock. Of course, the primary problem is that when a team passes the ball around the perimeter, it is generally because it is trying to get the ball in an advantageous position to pass it to a player near the basket ... but we don't have any players who can score at the basket, other teams know this, so it is generally just passing the ball around the three-point line to waste time.
We don't play offensive basketball with a purpose.
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Yep. And while we're at it, how about an inbound play??
He hit the wall missing 35% of the games ? It had nothing to do with his flu and ankle and getting back into game shape?? Lol
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