Hispanics and Blacks protest to get into Univ of Cal Berkerly

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

I love it when a bunch of old white dudes get together to complain....it's pretty funny.

This thread reminds me of a time when I called a company about an open job position (unskilled job as a college kid), discussed my direct experience on the phone and was told I was a probably good fit for the position....came in for the interview on the same exact day because I needed a job as a poor college student and was immediately told....."that job has been filled". My response, "But, I just called"......" I'm sorry, that job has been filled".

Similar to:

The sins of the father shall be visited upon the son a thousand times?

 

[krup]

The problem with a protest like this at a school like Cal Berkeley is that it ignores the large amount of evidence that putting kids into schools where their entrance qualifications significantly lag their peers results in many of them downgrading the difficulty of their majors when they get to those schools.

As a UCLA study concluded "tudents with credentials more than one standard deviation below their science peers at college are about half as likely to end up with science bachelor degrees, compared with similar students attending schools where their credentials are much closer to, or above, the mean credentials of their peers."

 

[LevaosLectures]

What happened to the days when we talked thing out or went to the polls to initiate change. I don't want to be mean spirited but this country is becoming a real mess in a big real hurry. I remember my history professor in college say like Rome the U.S. will emplode from internal decay.

Is this a serious post? If so, dear God....the ignorance astounds.

 

[LevaosLectures]

California voted to remove affirmative action from their universities during the 90s due to so many qualified Asians being screwed over for decades like they do everywhere else in the country. When they removed it and based admissions purely on qualifications, Asians went from 20% to as high as 60% in some of the system while blacks dropped from 15% to 5%. All it shows is when you make the rules fair, the cream rises to the top. Work ethic and parenting make a huge difference.

So blacks are inferior? That's your argunent?

 

[RUckusbuck]

It's 2015. The black guy.

BTW do you really think there is one tiny bit of racial discrimination in any college admissions office? There isn't.

The black person has a better chance today than in the 50's.

 

[RUckusbuck]

Perhaps, but it's less troubling than legislating into law a false notion that blacks cannot be held to the same standards as the rest of the people. I believe they are every bit as capable as anyone else. Who here believes that it's okay to not only suggest, but to pass laws which say, the bar must be lowered for black people because, well, otherwise they can't? That's so degrading in my view.

If the counter argument is poverty, not race, is really the problem and black people are disproportionately poor, then I say the affirmative action laws are beating around the bush. Address the disadvantages of poverty, if we must handicap the field.

A few decades of affirmative action can't erase 400+ years of systematic oppression. I don't think it's possible.

 

[newell138]

This mess began when trophies were handed out to everyone just for being on the team, now everyone thinks they should be rewarded for doing nothing. I love the new Kia commercials, we need more of it!

 

[vkj91]

I love it when a bunch of old white dudes get together to complain....it's pretty funny.


The sins of the father shall be visited upon the son a thousand times?

Two old white guys were forced out of their positions for a handful of incidents that were 100% out of their control and seem to have been dealt with in a timely fashion. Yet, old white guys shouldn't discuss? On the CE board you say old white guys shouldn't discuss anything regarding the youth or minorities either. If race is out, youth is out, and now even discussing old white people is out what can we talk about? Is this what it feels like to be the parent of a teenager? I'm expected to have no input or say in things while also being expected to pay for everything.

 

[srru86]

....said all the white guys.

Like this right winger
Governor Jerry Brown, a Cal alum, says "normal" students can't get into the university anymore. Why? Some blame Brown's budgets.
from Inside Higher Ed
Seems the irony of getting into the flagship state school as the Governor's son who is "normal" is lost on Jerry. That is the difference between NJ and other places. Here the Governor, and other social climbing parents, want their kids to go to Princeton and Notre Dame. Privilege seems invisible to those that have it.

 

[jonRU09]

I've always thought AA was a poor solution to a real problem that lacks any good solutions. If you get stabbed you're not going to apply a band-aid to the top of the wound and say it is all better, but that is pretty much what we did. The problem stems from socioeconomic issues rather than pure racism from a college admissions board. Obviously racism and discrimination are two of the many factors that have led to the socioeconomic disparity, but a blanket AA policy cannot resolve those issues.

For example, if you take all demographic information away from the admissions office, leaving them with only the applicant's gender and academic record (not even the applicant's name), I'd imagine you're still going to end up with the same demographic of admitted students skewed toward a lower minority population similar to that which people are currently complaining about -- possibly worse. Is that prima facie evidence of institutional racism or discrimination? No. Not at the college's level anyway. It is just the sad reality that many people are unfortunate enough to grow up in impoverished areas with underfunded schools. At the same time, many of those living in that reality are also qualified to go to college but because they lacked the resources that others had growing up, it might not show on their academic record. Until there is an alternative metric to distinguish students that are qualified or would be qualified but for their lack of resources growing up from those that are not qualified in either regard, both the proponents and opponents of AA are going to be going at it and each are going to have legitimate arguments.

 

[rutgersdave]

Like this right winger
Governor Jerry Brown, a Cal alum, says "normal" students can't get into the university anymore. Why? Some blame Brown's budgets.
from Inside Higher Ed
Seems the irony of getting into the flagship state school as the Governor's son who is "normal" is lost on Jerry. That is the difference between NJ and other places. Here the Governor, and other social climbing parents, want their kids to go to Princeton and Notre Dame. Privilege seems invisible to those that have it.

There are 10 university of California locations or campuses which are at different levels. 40% of the students in the UC school system are considered low income. Cal Berkeley and UCLA are considered the best of the UC schools. They should apply to the lower level schools in the system.

New Jersey also has different level of schools, Rutgers New Brunswick, Rutgers Newark and Camden, Montclair State , William Paterson, Passaic Community College, and Ramapo College. The student at William Paterson most likely won't be able to handle the work at Rutgers New Brunswick.

 

[redskull]

"Black Privilege"? :flush:

 

[DANTHEMAN]

At Berkeley, Asians are not considered a minority. Even when I started Berkeley in 1968, Asians were not treated differently from white people. I have to say there is something wrong with the figures: Berkeley does not have 27,000 undergraduates, but more like 20,000: maybe grad students are being included. I was a little surprised that the campus has 14% Hispanics. But it should be kept in mind that to be Hispanic all one needs is to have a Spanish surname, and that's true of people in a wide range of social brackets.

Dissension among the number of blacks at Berkeley has been going on forever. I don't mind the university taking a chance on someone who, like many blacks, has overcome obstacles in his or her background, but I also think that preferential admissions go against what this country is about. I am considered far to the right on my faculty for holding this belief.

I once had a discussion with a Jewish woman who wanted special treatment as a Hispanic because she had a Spanish surname. The New York colleges said she was Jewish, not Hispanic.

 

[RealityChech2]

I love it when a bunch of old white dudes get together to complain....it's pretty funny.

This thread reminds me of a time when I called a company about an open job position (unskilled job as a college kid), discussed my direct experience on the phone and was told I was a probably good fit for the position....came in for the interview on the same exact day because I needed a job as a poor college student and was immediately told....."that job has been filled". My response, "But, I just called"......" I'm sorry, that job has been filled".

Similar to:

The sins of the father shall be visited upon the son a thousand times?

Maybe you walked in with your pants below your ass and your underwear sticking out and you 'AXED' the woman a stupid question.

 

[ruthetiger]

Lots of true stuff here. I'm AA, and got in to RU based on merit. Don't believe in affirmative action, as it promotes attrition by addition.

My parents always taught me if I didn't earn it then I failed. Period! If there's a mountain, you climb it! If there's a obstacle, you run through it. If there's 10 people, you fight them all, despite the fact it looks like it's unfair to some but fair to you, and unfair to most except for the people you're fighting against. That's just the way life is. There is no honor anymore in people, because this is the dawn and age of a lack of holding your head up high. Today's young folks lack dignity in general and it seems to me theresults a sense of entitlement because they're owed something.

I get a lot of flack for my straight arrow views because they're honest and not opinionated. If I get bashed for this hpov, and it's too blunt for most, then GFY!

IF YOU DIDN'T EARN IT, THEN STOP COMPLAINING. YOU DIDN'T EFFING EARN IT!

 

[retired711]

I once had a discussion with a Jewish woman who wanted special treatment as a Hispanic because she had a Spanish surname. The New York colleges said she was Jewish, not Hispanic.

I have heard of this. It is plausible that she had a Hispanic last name. The first Jews in America were Sephardim -- descendants of the Spanish Jews evicted from Spain in 1492.

 

[vkj91]

I've always thought AA was a poor solution to a real problem that lacks any good solutions. If you get stabbed you're not going to apply a band-aid to the top of the wound and say it is all better, but that is pretty much what we did. The problem stems from socioeconomic issues rather than pure racism from a college admissions board. Obviously racism and discrimination are two of the many factors that have led to the socioeconomic disparity, but a blanket AA policy cannot resolve those issues.

For example, if you take all demographic information away from the admissions office, leaving them with only the applicant's gender and academic record (not even the applicant's name), I'd imagine you're still going to end up with the same demographic of admitted students skewed toward a lower minority population similar to that which people are currently complaining about -- possibly worse. Is that prima facie evidence of institutional racism or discrimination? No. Not at the college's level anyway. It is just the sad reality that many people are unfortunate enough to grow up in impoverished areas with underfunded schools. At the same time, many of those living in that reality are also qualified to go to college but because they lacked the resources that others had growing up, it might not show on their academic record. Until there is an alternative metric to distinguish students that are qualified or would be qualified but for their lack of resources growing up from those that are not qualified in either regard, both the proponents and opponents of AA are going to be going at it and each are going to have legitimate arguments.

Where are these underfunded schools? Didn't someone post a few pages ago how Newark spends more money per kid than Ridgewood? Money isn't the problem it's that many of these kids are born into families where the parents either don't care enough or can't help them with their school work. I don't care what type of economic background you come from, if the parents aren't involved in a kid's education their chances of success are way less.

 

[retired711]

I live in Cal. Would never let my kid go to Cal. but my tax dollars give me a say.

As a Cal graduate (undergraduate and law school) I can tell you you're making a mistake. Cal and UCLA are the flagships of the system. Cal is not anywhere near as political as in the 1960s, and even then a student could have a pretty normal experience if he or she wanted.

 

[vkj91]

Why leave the country? Have a friend who changed her last name to her grandmother's Latin sounding maiden name. Voila, her average test scores secured a seat into Northwestern's med school. Today she is a doctor.

If you system is unfair, make it fair I say.

My children have multiple citizenships through their mother. I look forward to my "foreign" children helping to fill some International quota at some IVY league school or maybe even Stanford.

 

[ruthetiger]

I think that's the issue. Patenting is just terrible when it comes to education. If there is a lack of support at home, then there's no chance of success. Unless, of course, the student has the will to change this themselves.

Where are these underfunded schools? Didn't someone post a few pages ago how Newark spends more money per kid than Ridgewood? Money isn't the problem it's that many of these kids are born into families where the parents either don't care enough or can't help them with their school work. I don't care what type of economic background you come from, if the parents aren't involved in a kid's education their chances of success are way less.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

I am going to try and get the the real root the real issue here. You want to get as many people to be fully qualified to get into the best schools? Then the only way to do this is the fix the educational system in the US. Pre-K to HS pretty much is putrid in poorer areas. Some people thought that the reason for this was money aka middle-class, upper-middle class and upper class areas paid more taxes and thus could afford better schools. We all now know this is horsesh!t. Newark schools paid more per student than any other district in NJ and yet their schools are still among the worse. Now if you are racist then you can say it is because of race, they are not as smart, etc. However, we also all now know that that is also horsesh!t. Why? Because Newark is also home to some of the best schools in NJ! But they are charter schools that are run like the type of schools you get in the better neighborhoods. So you see it is not about money, it is not about race, it is the system.

Fix the system and you even the playing field as far as education goes. Also the more educated a population the less crime there tends to be. Everyone wins!

However, certain special interest groups are fighting this every single step of the way.

Also, it is really time for everyone to grow the hell up and face and embrace reality, we are all home sapiens, get over it!

 

[ruthetiger]

It's not as simple as you think. Those charter schools have the power to accept whoever they want. I don't think the issue is that it's unfair, I believe the issue is parenting hands down. Parenting is terribly inefficient, and let kids raise themselves.

In Newark btw, there are so many x factors that make those kids fail. Fwiw, there are just as many kids who would prevent kids from making grade as there are kids who want to succeed. Those kids who are just plain bad have nothing to lose. That's a problem with schools in general.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

Also, parents must play a huge role in this as well. It helps a lot of parents are involved and actually care about education and place a very strong focus on it.

Without that, some kids can still succeed but they have to do it on their own. Those people who be successful no matter what, but that would in spite of everything and only because of themselves.

 

[RuRoman]

Affirmative action based on skin color and/or ethnicity is wrong, counterproductive, and serve no purpose any longer.

However, students deemed poor that match admission criteria minimum requirements ought to receive consideration in particularly if their education was also received at a school system considered to be in poverty areas.

The biggest problem today with US is not race, it is income exclusion.

 

[RUevolution36]

"Of course!" - 1



Link please.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/harvards-chinese-exclusion-act-1433543969

 

[Akron Buck]

 

[RUJohnny99]

I was a little surprised that the campus has 14% Hispanics. But it should be kept in mind that to be Hispanic all one needs is to have a Spanish surname, and that's true of people in a wide range of social brackets.

Oh, it's a lot easier than that! Prove I'm NOT Latino.

 

[rufeelinit]

We have failed miserably at addressing the root cause of this problem despite throwing very significant amount of funding at it with little positive results. So now the climate is right to clamor for an immediate fix despite the fact that many are unprepared for such a task.

 

[RUJohnny99]

I once had a discussion with a Jewish woman who wanted special treatment as a Hispanic because she had a Spanish surname. The New York colleges said she was Jewish, not Hispanic.

Wow NY asks religion?

Do they take your word for it, or do they make the men drop their pants to prove it?

 

[retired711]

Wow NY asks religion?

Do they take your word for it, or do they make the men drop their pants to prove it?

No, they don't ask your religion. Nobody does -- at least nobody who wants to escape violating the law. All he really meant was that they thought a Sephardic name wasn't what they meant by a Hispanic name. And, btw, Muslems are circumcised too. That's how Hindu mobs figured out which men wMuslim in the 1947 communal riots in India -- they took their victims' pants off.

 

[mdk01]

To all of us who bash affirmative action - white applicants have been getting preferential admission to elite colleges (particularly the Ivies) for years at the expense of Asian applicants with better academic credentials.

Why just white applicants? Couldn't (shouldn't) you say all non-Asian applicants?

 

[mdk01]

A kid has to work twice as hard to get out of the hood than a private school kid. Being born on third base doesn't mean you worked hard.

Doesn't that statement operate out of an assumption that all black applicants are working to get out of the hood and all white kids are born on third base? What about the black kid that went to Lawrenceville or the white kid from a broken home who went to a mediocre high school?

 

[RealityChech2]

Doesn't that statement operate out of an assumption that all black applicants are working to get out of the hood and all white kids are born on third base? What about the black kid that went to Lawrenceville or the white kid from a broken home who went to a mediocre high school?

Came to America when I was 6.
Was so poor that I had cardboard in my sneakers when the sneakers had holes.
Grew up in Newark and went to East Side HS.
Went to trade school for 2 years and then 8 years of part time college for my comp sci degree. All 10 years of school as I worked FULL TIME.
I now have 3 houses, a 3000 sq ft primary residence and a 3 br condo in Wildwood and a 2 BR condo in Boca Raton FL, all paid for.
No one ever gave me anything. I had no privilege. All I had was a desire not to be poor!

 

[RUckusbuck]

It's not as simple as you think. Those charter schools have the power to accept whoever they want. I don't think the issue is that it's unfair, I believe the issue is parenting hands down. Parenting is terribly inefficient, and let kids raise themselves.

In Newark btw, there are so many x factors that make those kids fail. Fwiw, there are just as many kids who would prevent kids from making grade as there are kids who want to succeed. Those kids who are just plain bad have nothing to lose. That's a problem with schools in general.

I agree. Parenting plays a huge part here. It begs the question... Why are the parents so messed up? Sometimes over multiple generations.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

Not all Latinos have Spanish surnames. Latin America was founded/conquered by Spain (besides a few countries like Brazil) but the European immigrants to Latin America were all Catholics, that included not just Spanish people, but people ALL Catholics. So you can find many people, including famous ones, with Italian, German, French, English, Irish surnames. Later there were big waves of Asians as well so many people have Chinese and Japanese surnames. That is just the tip of the iceberg.

Latino is NOT a race or even a real ethnicity or more than saying that North American (Mexico, United States and Canada) is a race or ethnicity.

The term Latino was created in the United States for marketing, so that they could market to that demographic to sell them products.

 

[ruthetiger]

Because the country's left or right wing are to blame for empowering the kids to an nth degree. You know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Well this is hell now.

That and the sense of entitlement has poisoned just about everyone's mind. At least I'm of the opinion that parents and everyone have things a little too easy for the kids to have acess to just about everything they can get their hand on. From elementary to college, they've become spoiled to the point where they work for practically nothing. That's the nature of the beast the left, centrist and right wing have created. The question is how can it be taken back?

Btw, some folks love to live in their own sh!t, that it doesn't stink or taste bad anymore. I'm not buying the fact of psychological trauma from star trek tos, if you want to change, then change. If you don't then don't complain of anyone holding you back. Sometimes some parents have to just say my kid sucks at just about everything. But the very same parents who say that, will go to bat for their kid, even if they worshipped Satan and did the most heinous things, and pretend as if it never happened. That's a problem right there. The country sucks right now because parenting sucks, and when they're called out on the carpet, all sorts of expletives are hurled because someone else is to blame, but not them. Same concept.

I agree. Parenting plays a huge part here. It begs the question... Why are the parents so messed up? Sometimes over multiple generations.

 

[ru1869]

F them!!!!

I am tired of this crap!!!

Cry babies.

 

[srru86]

Link please.

Slate
No Longer Black and White
Why liberals should let California’s affirmative-action ban stand.

 

[RUforJERSEY]

Came to America when I was 6.
Was so poor that I had cardboard in my sneakers when the sneakers had holes.
Grew up in Newark and went to East Side HS.
Went to trade school for 2 years and then 8 years of part time college for my comp sci degree. All 10 years of school as I worked FULL TIME.
I now have 3 houses, a 3000 sq ft primary residence and a 3 br condo in Wildwood and a 2 BR condo in Boca Raton FL, all paid for.
No one ever gave me anything. I had no privilege. All I had was a desire not to be poor!

And none of that changes the fact that you're a racist POS.

 

[Caliknight]

Two old white guys were forced out of their positions for a handful of incidents that were 100% out of their control and seem to have been dealt with in a timely fashion. Yet, old white guys shouldn't discuss? On the CE board you say old white guys shouldn't discuss anything regarding the youth or minorities either. If race is out, youth is out, and now even discussing old white people is out what can we talk about? Is this what it feels like to be the parent of a teenager? I'm expected to have no input or say in things while also being expected to pay for everything.

I would like to see how fast the post would be removed and how the cries of racism would rain down if somone opened a post with, "I love when a bunch of old black guys...."

Funny thing is, the guy who is actually making the post is probably older than they guys he is calling old.