If we had Cliff...

[NewJerseyHawk]

Long winded as usual
Would Cliff be a massive upgrade over Big O ?
Yes - end of story

Irrelevant because this isn't football. RU shot 81% at the rim (18-22) last night....a dunk or layup by Harper is the same as a dunk by Cliff.

I will repeat again the facts, Cliff wanted the most money.......the estimated amount of money to account for Hayes, Acuff, Derkack and Martini costs less than Cliffs price tag, which is estimated to be north of 1M.....

Do we also miss Simpson, Mag, Gavin Griffiths and Wolf too?? Would you rather have their replacements with Lathan Sommerville OR bring them all back with Cliff??....

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

Irrelevant because this isn't football. RU shot 81% at the rim (18-22) last night....a dunk or layup by Harper is the same as a dunk by Cliff.

I will repeat again the facts, Cliff wanted the most money.......the estimated amount of money to account for Hayes, Acuff, Derkack and Martini costs less than Cliffs price tag, which is estimated to be north of 1M.....

Do we also miss Simpson, Mag, Gavin Griffiths and Wolf too?? Would you rather have their replacements with Lathan Sommerville OR bring them all back with Cliff??....

If the price tag is too expensive, I get that
Would rather have the 4 you listed vs. Cilff, as that shortens our rotation from 10 to 7 (or 6 if O doesn't return, which I assume he would) and with an injury or 2 in the grueling B1G, that'd be problematic

But to say we don't miss him is absurd to say the least

 

[DC8690]

We sucked last year

My response was to the post "All you need to look at is the rebound stat line to determine Cliffs absence", which you replied
"This ^^^^

Rebounding is a major concern right now."

Cliff was on our team last year. He was out rebounded quite a lot. So tell me how the rebound stat line last night would be any better with Cliff. He was out rebounded in 12 of the Big 10 games last year v their big man.

 

[Scangg]

How did Cliff do against Krikke, Ware,Reese, Crowl and of course Edey last year? In the 8 games v Iowa, Indiana Purdue, MD and WI games last year he was outscored by 101 and out rebounded by 33.

These types of stats could be even worse this year

To expound on this from last nite, Guards/Wings were 16-19 84.2% at the rim, Dylan 7-8, PJ 2-2, JWill 4-4, Derkack 3-4, Acuff 0-1. Bigs 2-3 66.7%, ZBo 1-1, Latham 1-1, Ogbole 0-1.
18-22 81.8% at the rim

The St John's game was tougher because Ogbole played 21 minutes, mostly in the lane

Alabama w/Cliff(1st game), 24-32 75% at the rim.
Bigs 9-9, G/W 15-23 65.2%

How many threads have been started the last 2-3 years because players aren't hitting their layups or bunnies? All good teams hit over 70% around the rim, 81.8% game 1. It's amazing how easy layups become when there isn't that extra defender in the lane defended a one dimensional big.

We have better players and better finishers this year. Blaming Cliff for other players not being able to finish is lazy

People really think Dylan wouldn't be able to finish if Cliff was here? Come on stop it. These players are just better

Is Cliff killing Alabama's offense? If he was this huge offense killer he wouldn't have been one of the most desirable 5's in the portal making 7 figures going to a top 5 team in the country

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

If the price tag is too expensive, I get that
Would rather have the 4 you listed vs. Cilff, as that shortens our rotation from 10 to 7 (or 6 if O doesn't return, which I assume he would) and with an injury or 2 in the grueling B1G, that'd be problematic

But to say we don't miss him is absurd to say the least

We don't miss him....we are a better and more balanced roster.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Wrong wrong wrong.. ..

The price was too expensive and he does not fit the style of play for this roster.

I will ask fans to learn the game and ask yourself....

How did Dylan Harper, Jeremiah Williams score yesterday.....by getting out in transition and driving into the paint, by beating their defender.....

If Cliff is on the court, where is he likely to be standing on offense.....

A) 25 feet from the basket ready to shoot 3s, set screens and roll to the basket to shoot 10 footers....??

B) 5 feet from the basket on either block, looking for a pass to try and score??

If the answer is either A OR B, both are negatives for the entire roster or other 4 players....

If it's A, the defender guarding Cliff, if he is 25 feet from the basket, setting a screen to help the guard, the defensive player guarding Cliff, does NOT have to leave the paint. ....because even if Dylan or JWill get past the defender that Cliff sets the pick for, Dylan has to then shoot quickly a 3 OR drive into the paint where the player guarding Cliff is waiting for him.

if its B and if Dylan Harper beats his defender, can he score at the rim, when Cliffs defender just leaves Cliff and tries to block his shot or alter it?? It makes it significantly tougher to have Dylan score, JWill score off the dribble, if they have to drive into the paint and beat their defender AND score over a 6'9 to 6'11 defender.

You also are asking the guard to drive into traffic and score OR make a crisp pass to Cliff to catch and score....Cliff can catch lobs and dunks, but does not have crisp hands where he's fluid around the basket to score.....if he did, he would already be in the NBA.

I don't know how many times it has been explained, this is a new or more updated/modern way of basketball called "5-Out" and Lathan Sommerville is the preferred style of B1G, to play a 5-Out offense. He is simply a better offensive player as a freshman, than Cliff as a 4th or 5th year senior.

Is Cliff a better rebounder and shot blocker than Lathan Sommerville?? Yes, but with every possession on offense with Ogbole, who is a worse version of Cliff when he was a freshman, none of our guards can drive and score or drive and kick, with a traditional center in the paint clogging driving lanes.....there is no drive and kick for a 3 pointer, unless the driver can actually drive and score.....and you cannot drive and score if Cliff is on the court, with his defender in the paint.....so the players guarding the shooters, don't have to worry about the driver actually scoring.

We are trained to complain about things, but they have to make sense.....Cliff with this roster does not help others on offense, become better offensive players.

Great insights. Appreciate the post.

 

[RutgersDom]

I think you forget he led the nation in dunks one year and we have a few players that can actually get in to the paint.

Forgetting offense...he is the missing key on defense.

Sommerville reminds me a lot of Zed Key from OSU. Talented on offense and has all the moves, but the size is going to be an issue. Especially trying to play as a freshman in B1G

Agree Summerville will be a positive on O and good enough on D. I do worry about him tiring towards the end as most freshman do

 

[DC8690]

These types of stats could be even worse this year

Maybe they will be worse, who knows, but I keep hearing how we are going to miss Cliff's defense. Besides blocks, Cliff was an average at best defender. He was not a juggernaut. Was he better than Lathan is now? Perhaps, but Lathan's offense right now is way better than I have ever seen from Cliff.

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

We don't miss him....we are a better and more balanced roster.

View embedded media

We got smoked on the boards vs. the Johnnies
Last night we did well against a MAC team

Like i said, if it means having the 4 guys we got instead, then I'll take that
But if cliff was there for the taking and we didn't jump on that (assuming we had the $), that's disappointing

 

[PiscatawayMike]

Quick question: are @JayDogSmooth and @jaydogsmooth1 the same person?

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

Quick question: are @JayDogSmooth and @jaydogsmooth1 the same person?

Yes
One is phone name and one laptop

Got new phone and for some reason name didn't appear when logging in, guess login credentials didn't save so just created a new one

Mike, met you and BEP at the B1G tourney at the Garden w/my pops
Introduced you two by your Screen names, you ask him if he posts, and like a dick he says "yeah my board name is Flemington Joe"

 

[socaldave]

Wrong wrong wrong.. ..

The price was too expensive and he does not fit the style of play for this roster.

I will ask fans to learn the game and ask yourself....

How did Dylan Harper, Jeremiah Williams score yesterday.....by getting out in transition and driving into the paint, by beating their defender.....

If Cliff is on the court, where is he likely to be standing on offense.....

A) 25 feet from the basket ready to shoot 3s, set screens and roll to the basket to shoot 10 footers....??

B) 5 feet from the basket on either block, looking for a pass to try and score??

If the answer is either A OR B, both are negatives for the entire roster or other 4 players....

If it's A, the defender guarding Cliff, if he is 25 feet from the basket, setting a screen to help the guard, the defensive player guarding Cliff, does NOT have to leave the paint. ....because even if Dylan or JWill get past the defender that Cliff sets the pick for, Dylan has to then shoot quickly a 3 OR drive into the paint where the player guarding Cliff is waiting for him.

if its B and if Dylan Harper beats his defender, can he score at the rim, when Cliffs defender just leaves Cliff and tries to block his shot or alter it?? It makes it significantly tougher to have Dylan score, JWill score off the dribble, if they have to drive into the paint and beat their defender AND score over a 6'9 to 6'11 defender.

You also are asking the guard to drive into traffic and score OR make a crisp pass to Cliff to catch and score....Cliff can catch lobs and dunks, but does not have crisp hands where he's fluid around the basket to score.....if he did, he would already be in the NBA.

I don't know how many times it has been explained, this is a new or more updated/modern way of basketball called "5-Out" and Lathan Sommerville is the preferred style of B1G, to play a 5-Out offense. He is simply a better offensive player as a freshman, than Cliff as a 4th or 5th year senior.

Is Cliff a better rebounder and shot blocker than Lathan Sommerville?? Yes, but with every possession on offense with Ogbole, who is a worse version of Cliff when he was a freshman, none of our guards can drive and score or drive and kick, with a traditional center in the paint clogging driving lanes.....there is no drive and kick for a 3 pointer, unless the driver can actually drive and score.....and you cannot drive and score if Cliff is on the court, with his defender in the paint.....so the players guarding the shooters, don't have to worry about the driver actually scoring.

We are trained to complain about things, but they have to make sense.....Cliff with this roster does not help others on offense, become better offensive players.

Thank you for taking the time for saying what I have been saying since Cliff’s last 5 games on the banks!!!
We are a better team without Cliff.
As we develop it will be glaringly obvious
However some on this board will never understand.

 

[PiscatawayMike]

Yes
One is phone name and one laptop

Got new phone and for some reason name didn't appear when logging in, guess login credentials didn't save so just created a new one

Mike, met you and BEP at the B1G tourney at the Garden w/my pops
Introduced you two by your Screen names, you ask him if he posts, and like a dick he says "yeah my board name is Flemington Joe"

Sure, I remember! We've run into each other a few times after games at the RAC, too.

 

[RUPete]

I suspect it was much easier for him to accept a secondary role on an experienced veteran team coming off a Final Four appearance, especially given the money on offer, than to do it for two five star freshman. All of these guys have egos.

Not so much ego with him. Instead, he finally got his opportunity to be paid and be paid well. Had to be frustrating for him last year watching others benefit from NIL while he couldn’t enjoy the same.

 

[Scangg]

Thank you for taking the time for saying what I have been saying since Cliff’s last 5 games on the banks!!!
We are a better team without Cliff.
As we develop it will be glaringly obvious
However some on this board will never understand.

We are a better team bc we have 10 new players including 2 top 5 NBA draft picks and transfers who can actually shoot

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I saw 3 defensive possessions in the beginning of the 2nd half against Arkansas State and was stunned how bad and disinterested he was.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

We don't miss him....we are a better and more balanced roster.

View embedded media

In the last X amount of years there has been ZERO players we miss according to you. You are a great fan and I always enjoy reading what you post and are an optimist, but...........

 

[KnightTerrors]

The issue isn’t losing cliff. It’s Ogbole not being recruited over.

 

[Scangg]

The issue isn’t losing cliff. It’s Ogbole not being recruited over.

If we could swap Ogbole for a solid portal 5...

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

If we could swap Ogbole for a solid portal 5...

I think (confidence is low) that Ogobole is like a solid portal 5.

5s are not like 2s that are a dime a dozen

 

[PaKnight]

We would be a better team with Cliff and our ceiling would be higher, no doubt.

With that said, if Cliff was here Lathan wouldn’t get the opportunity and minutes that he will be getting.

I expect a lot of growing pains with Lathan and am a bit worried about getting dominated on the glass and defending the pain against bigger teams. But I love what I saw out of Lathan last night.

If we are able to keep him then the minutes and opportunity he’s getting will do wonders for next season.

When you have two players last Ace and Dylan, next season should not be a major consideration, it is about this year.

 

[socaldave]

We are a better team bc we have 10 new players including 2 top 5 NBA draft picks and transfers who can actually shoot

Fab 3 baby!!!
You said No freshman could start or contribute at center!
Lathan has more talent than we have had a center since Jamin James Bailey
Without Cliff clogging up the middle, playing low IQ 1 dimensional ball, This Kid has the opportunity to get minutes to continue to develop and grow.
Fun to watch, did you see that High IQ, over the head pass🔥
Fun to watch, allowing us to be a much better team come February than we ever could have been than with Cliff Taking space and minutes
GO RU!!!

 

[Scangg]

Fab 3 baby!!!
You said No freshman could start or contribute at center!
Lathan has more talent than we have had a center since Jamin James Bailey
Without Cliff clogging up the middle, playing low IQ 1 dimensional ball, This Kid has the opportunity to get minutes to continue to develop and grow.
Fun to watch, did you see that High IQ, over the head pass🔥
Fun to watch, allowing us to be a much better team come February than we ever could have been than with Cliff Taking space and minutes
GO RU!!!

I never said that lol

 

[socaldave]

I never said that lol

What exactly was your Lathan take?
Mine was what we saw against Wagner
Yours was Cliff Cliff Cliff!

 

[Scangg]

What exactly was your Lathan take?

I was extremely bullish on Lathan from the time we were recruiting him. Loved his game and skill set

What I said about this season was that it was extremely risky to go into the season with a true freshman and Ogbole at the 5 and wanted a proven portal 5. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity and we should be mitigating risk

Big men aren't typically great as freshman and Lathan might need time to adjust to B1G level bball. I was concerned Lathan needed to reshape his body, but he already made major strides there and almost wasn't recognizable with the fat he dropped

Ogbole was a project that needed a lot of development. Martini I thought could play some spot minutes at the 5 but worried his size would be a real problem in the B1G for extended minutes there.

If Lathan was ready from the jump and/or Ogbole makes a jump it could work out and we would be fine, but it was just too risky, especially if one gets hurt

 

[Kbee3]

I think the days of him coming off the bench are numbered. He will be starting sooner than any of us imagined.

Actually, I imagined him starting from game 1.

 

[socaldave]

That's where we differ, Lathan in my eyes was not a typical Big man Freshman.
I felt the risk was not giving him minutes, To play develop and stay.
In this day and age he may not stay his entire time here, at least we have him now, health is a risk for every player every position.
In the meantime we get to watch a special group of 3 frosh this year.
Our risk assessment equation and preparedness equation were at odds.
I will spare you the laughing emoji

 

[Scangg]

That's where we differ, Lathan in my eyes was not a typical Big man Freshman.
I felt the risk was not giving him minutes, To play develop and stay.
In this day and age he may not stay his entire time here, at least we have him now, health is a risk for every player every position.
In the meantime we get to watch a special group of 3 frosh this year.
Our risk assessment equation and preparedness equation were at odds.
I will spare you the laughing emoji

Lathan was always going to get minutes this year. That was never a doubt. The difference between having a portal 5 or not is without the transfer we really NEED Lathan to be good as freshman or at least solid. If we had another option, we could survive if Lathan needed a year and if he was a stud from the jump then it's icing on the cake

You dont know until they play though. Loved Lathan as a prospect, but everyone loved Gavin too who was a much higher rated player and turned out to be a complete bust. It happens. Even 5 stars bust. It happens. It's a risk. You don't know for sure until they actually play in college

 

[socaldave]

Lathan was always going to get minutes this year. That was never a doubt. The difference between having a portal 5 or not is without the transfer we really NEED Lathan to be good as freshman or at least solid. If we had another option, we could survive if Lathan needed a year and if he was a stud from the jump then it's icing on the cake

You dont know until they play though. Loved Lathan as a prospect, but everyone loved Gavin too who was a much higher rated player and turned out to be a complete bust. It happens. Even 5 stars bust. It happens. It's a risk. You don't know for sure until they actually play in college

I did not love Gavin, didn’t need to see him play.
Loved Latan did’nt need to see him play.
Always Said Harper and Ace would be as impactful as Webber and Howard!
They are both exceptional
With Harper having Kobe like potential!!!
Again I will spare you the inflammatory laughing emoji

 

[Arizona Knight]

Lathan was always going to get minutes this year. That was never a doubt. The difference between having a portal 5 or not is without the transfer we really NEED Lathan to be good as freshman or at least solid. If we had another option, we could survive if Lathan needed a year and if he was a stud from the jump then it's icing on the cake

You dont know until they play though. Loved Lathan as a prospect, but everyone loved Gavin too who was a much higher rated player and turned out to be a complete bust. It happens. Even 5 stars bust. It happens. It's a risk. You don't know for sure until they actually play in college

Great post. Either Pike is a genius or a riverboat gambler. Yet to be determined

 

[socaldave]

Roy Hinson says hi.

Loved Roy, I will put Roy in the conversation, different type of players

 

[willisneverrana43]

Loved Roy, I will put Roy in the conversation, different type of players

Very nice of you to put Roy Hinson “in the conversation” with Lathan Sommerville and acknowledge that they were different types of players. I’m sure he’ll appreciate that. Sommerville is the type that has played one NCAA game against Wagner. Hinson is the type that went in the first round of the draft and played an 8-year NBA career during which he was once traded for the number one draft pick.

 

[lion1983]

Hinson was EXTREMELY raw coming out of high school - extremely athletic , but very, very raw. He made himself into a 1st round NBA pick and a near NBA All Star through sheer hard work improving his game ... I think he WOULD have been an NBA All Star had he not gotten hurt.

My point is that Hinson was a project, and not highly recruited - came out of a weak high school program in a weak league (Franklin). Though even raw, averaged 9+ ppg and 5.6 rpg ... and 2 blocks/game ... as a frosh.

Sommerville is a highly rated recruit - way higher than Hinson - and much more polished, especially offensively ... though like all players, especially post players, needs work to refine and improve his game.

James Bailey was not hugely recruited (recruiting was much more regional and much less organized back then), but was obviously starting quality immediately, and on a team that had been to the NCAA the prior year and returned ALL its players.

RU also had a guy named Lloyd Moore, who was very highly regarded, and well-recruited. Moore was huge, with terrific polished offensive skills and decent defensive skills ... but had a major conditioning issue (read: Fat and out of condition). RU had him for 2 seasons, but Littlepage (who inherited him) hated him and treated him like absolute garbage - almost abusive (my mother despised how Littlepage visibly treated Moore), driving him out of the program and out of basketball.

See this old thread on highly ranked players for RU: https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/highest-rated-recruit-all-time.193444/

Of course, most not centers ... But in the early 70's Les Cason was a top 20 player nationally, and at Center - a total flop. The thread stated Lloyd Moore was a top 20 kid also. Mentioned Wally Judge as a transfer - top 20-25 out of high school.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Hinson was EXTREMELY raw coming out of high school - extremely athletic , but very, very raw. He made himself into a 1st round NBA pick and a near NBA All Star through sheer hard work improving his game ... I think he WOULD have been an NBA All Star had he not gotten hurt.

My point is that Hinson was a project, and not highly recruited - came out of a weak high school program in a weak league (Franklin). Though even raw, averaged 9+ ppg and 5.6 rpg ... and 2 blocks/game ... as a frosh.

Sommerville is a highly rated recruit - way higher than Hinson - and much more polished, especially offensively ... though like all players, especially post players, needs work to refine and improve his game.

James Bailey was not hugely recruited (recruiting was much more regional and much less organized back then), but was obviously starting quality immediately, and on a team that had been to the NCAA the prior year and returned ALL its players.

RU also had a guy named Lloyd Moore, who was very highly regarded, and well-recruited. Moore was huge, with terrific polished offensive skills and decent defensive skills ... but had a major conditioning issue (read: Fat and out of condition). RU had him for 2 seasons, but Littlepage (who inherited him) hated him and treated him like absolute garbage - almost abusive (my mother despised how Littlepage visibly treated Moore), driving him out of the program and out of basketball.

See this old thread on highly ranked players for RU: https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/highest-rated-recruit-all-time.193444/

Of course, most not centers ... But in the early 70's Les Cason was a top 20 player nationally, and at Center - a total flop. The thread stated Lloyd Moore was a top 20 kid also. Mentioned Wally Judge as a transfer - top 20-25 out of high school.

Hinson is a case study on the benefits of 4 years in college.

 

[FinalFourOrBust]

All we will miss from Cliff is blocked shots into the stands.
Everything else from lathan is a net positive, his, Bball IQ, and his basketball athleticism will allow for him to improve defensively, especially with the coaching he is now getting.
I would rather be in the situation we are in today at the 5 than we were last year.
Especially how we are trying to play with Ace and Harper.

One good game against wager and people lose their minds. Absolute insanity.

 

[willisneverrana43]

Hinson was EXTREMELY raw coming out of high school - extremely athletic , but very, very raw. He made himself into a 1st round NBA pick and a near NBA All Star through sheer hard work improving his game ... I think he WOULD have been an NBA All Star had he not gotten hurt.

. . .

All that's very interesting, but I was responding to a comment about talent. And Hinson had a ton of it, enough to become a very good NBA player, one with great promise until the injury.

Heck, even as a freshman, he averaged 10 pts and over 2 blocks per game.

 

[RUfan1977]

There is no question that if we had a chance to keep Cliff we should have. However we didn’t have a chance and we may see some combination of Ogbole, Lathan, Martini, Ace or Dylan Grant playing the 5 based on matchups. Based upon how much Lathan worked out in the summer, I think the bulk of the minutes at the 5 will be Lathan’s. Having seen him play last year at the RAC in HS, my concern with him was that he needed to get in much better shape to defend and rebound.

 

[RUfan1977]

Kudos to Lathan Sommerville for working out hard this summer, losing weight and getting in shape so that he might be the center Rutgers needs this year!

 

[socaldave]

One good game against wager and people lose their minds. Absolute insanity.

Fab 3 Baby!!!!
GO RU!!!!

 

[seansherm]

So Lathan doesn't factor into the equation?

Lathan was coming whether Cliff was here or not, wasn't he?