I'm not sure we will ever be successful in Big Ten football
- Thread starter RUJonny1
- Start date
Usually I don't like name calling but here I'll make an exception. :)
Make the playoffs? That’s easy. Leave the Big Ten and rejoin the AAC or some other lower conference.
12 team playoff will guarantee 6 conference champs (for some dumb reason).
Currently, #27 Cincinnati (3-1) would make the playoff as the 12th seed.
Jumping over potentially both 4-0 PSU and 4-0 Minnesota
12 team playoff will guarantee 6 conference champs (for some dumb reason).
Currently, #27 Cincinnati (3-1) would make the playoff as the 12th seed.
Jumping over potentially both 4-0 PSU and 4-0 Minnesota
I love the calm and factual nature of your posts.
One of our resident message board geniuses will chime in with something stupid to counter the point. But something else is worth posting. His record. According to our message board geniuses, he sucks, because unlike Lance Leipold, he went 5-7 in his second year. But to this point, in 2014, he started 5-1, including losing to Florida in OT, but then proceeded to lose the next 6 games on his schedule.
Our resident Message Board Geniuses are too quick to anoint a purported "successful" on a short resume.
What is more interesting, is his resume is mediocre until 2018 (year 6), but then he regressed the next two years, which is not good enough for our resident Message Board Geniuses who think starting 4-0 with a soft schedule is the epitome of success.
Also, it should be noted that Stoops is a failure because he never won his division. 😜
| 2013 | Kentucky | 2–10 | 0–8 | 7th (Eastern) | |||
| 2014 | Kentucky | 5–7 | 2–6 | 6th (Eastern) | |||
| 2015 | Kentucky | 5–7 | 2–6 | T–4th (Eastern) | |||
| 2016 | Kentucky | 7–6 | 4–4 | T–2nd (Eastern) | L TaxSlayer | ||
| 2017 | Kentucky | 7–6 | 4–4 | T–3rd (Eastern) | L Music City | ||
| 2018 | Kentucky | 10–3 | 5–3 | T–2nd (Eastern) | W Citrus | 11 | 12 |
| 2019 | Kentucky | 8–5 | 3–5 | T–4th (Eastern) | W Belk | ||
| 2020 | Kentucky | 5–6 | 4–6 | 4th (Eastern) | W Gator | ||
| 2021 | Kentucky | 10–3 | 5–3 | 2nd (Eastern) | W Citrus | 15 | 18 |
| 2022 | Kentucky | 4–0 | 1–0 | (Eastern) | |||
| Kentucky: | 63–53 | 30–45 |
I take year 4 as where he started to get UK to be what its potential probably is. Yea it is mediocre on its face but that's about you'd expect from a UK football program. .500 or so overall and .500 or so in conference. He's basically done that most years since year #4...so that's a good job for UK imo. He established that baseline and then you have forays here and there for even better results. Two 10 win seasons in a 4 year time frame is excellent for UK. It's not something you'd expect to be maintained at UK but to see it happen multiple years in a short time frame is a top quality job imo. It's possible he might get back to back double digit seasons this year which would be great.
IMO at program like UK if you're at 6-7 wins and .500ish in conference you've done a solid job. 8-9 wins and you've done a really good job and 10+ is excellent. I'd say the same for Clawson at WF. Clawson developed that .500ish overall and in conference baseline in year 3. Leipold it's only year 2 so can't say anything about it but who knows maybe he's establishing it in year 2, time will tell.
I know you put a little bit of a damper on Leipold at Kansas and I do agree consistent results is what you want to see but that can only be done with time. Don't know if Leipold will be at Kansas long enough for that. But if you see what his results at Buffalo were compared to before him and now Kansas compared to before him, it's quite remarkable. Gill had 1 .500 or better season in his 4, Quinn 1 .500 or better season in his 5. Both were under .500 but Leipold in 4 out of his 6 seasons was .500 or better. He was 30-16 after the first two years of his build. They won the MAC east twice and were ranked in the final AP poll for the first time ever in the pandemic year. There are other accomplishments at Buffalo but you get the point...things they hadn't done before or in a long time.
At Kansas they haven't won more than 3 games since 2009 and their current offensive stats for some categories also date back to the 2000s. Lot of season left but he's made some progress this year. Time will show just how much. He could lose the rest of his games, assuming they're competing in most of them, and I'd still say he's got them moving in the right direction. He might not be there that long but if he does stay I think he can get them to that .500ish baseline too which is about all you can expect from Kansas. Anything over that is a bonus. I think Elko might too at Duke and he's got even less of a track record lol.
IMO the rules of judging track record don’t necessarily apply uniformly from school to school. Surrounding circumstances matter.
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I regretfully have to put you on ignore, because this is the first time we have disagreed on anything. This is solely based on you third and fourth paragraphs, and I now conclude that you are part of the Leipold cult. 😜
Now being serious, I see your point, but some want to extract his experience at Wisconsin Whitewater, which is not relevant, IMO.
If that's the case, why did Frost not get credit for UCF.
And what does one make of Jeff Brohm after Purdue's years of futility under Darell Hazell? He fell way off after Western Kentucky, but had a good year 5:
#FIRE EVERYONE EXCEPT LEIPOLD🤣
| Year | Team | Overall | Conference | Standing | Bowl/playoffs | Coaches# | AP° |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Western Kentucky Hilltoppers (Conference USA) (2014–2016) | |||||||
| 2014 | Western Kentucky | 8–5 | 4–4 | 3rd (East) | W Bahamas | ||
| 2015 | Western Kentucky | 12–2 | 8–0 | 1st (East) | W Miami Beach | 24 | |
| 2016 | Western Kentucky | 10–3 | 7–1 | T–1st (East) | Boca Raton‡ | ||
| Western Kentucky: | 30–10 | 19–5 | |||||
| Purdue Boilermakers (Big Ten Conference) (2017–present) | |||||||
| 2017 | Purdue | 7–6 | 4–5 | T–3rd (West) | W Foster Farms | ||
| 2018 | Purdue | 6–7 | 5–4 | T–2nd (West) | L Music City | ||
| 2019 | Purdue | 4–8 | 3–6 | T–5th (West) | |||
| 2020 | Purdue | 2–4 | 2–4 | 6th (West) | |||
| 2021 | Purdue | 9–4 | 6–3 | T–2nd (West) | W Music City | ||
| 2022 | Purdue | 2–2 | 0–1 | (West) | |||
| Purdue: | 30–31 | 20–23 | |||||
| Total: | 60–41 |
Agree you need the consistency but when you see it happen at multiple places even if some are from the lower level you start think, "hmmm there's a possible pattern here" and it might portend good things.
Results are the ultimate arbiter but if you want to do a little prognosticating looking at track record is helpful. I always say if the faces change and the results are the same that's a positive sign. That may mean doing it from place to place like Kelly from Grand Valley to Cincy to ND or just being in one place a long time and faces change through natural attrition like graduation etc..like Saban now at Alabama.
Leipold did at the FCS level for 8 years, then again at Buffalo for 6 and now possibly again at Kansas. We'll see but you can feel a possible positive pattern. Same for Clawson...Fordham, Richmond, Bowling Green and now WF...again you see sort of pattern and that's a positive sign of what he could be.
Frost did a great job at UCF but it was only 2 years, so not long enough to say anything for sure. No pattern to say much about. Brohm also not a long time either but I think he's better than Frost. IMO his issue is probably what I say about KK at TT. He's a little too lost in the machinations of his offense and doesn't pay attention to other things. I think that's a weakness for some offensive coaches.
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Getting to Rutgers, what is your vision for "success"?
I listed mine either above or in another thread, but I would be OK (but of course would love better) with:
overall/Conf
2022: 5-7/2-7
2023: 7-5/4-5
2024 or 2025 8 or 9 wins.
I'd say the same thing I say for UK, WF or Kansas...baseline of .500ish overall and in conference and then forays outside of that from time to time.
It's very hard to win consistently with such anemic offense, so that needs to turn IMO for the record to turn. It's like trying to win with 2 hands tied behind your back. Iowa might be the only one, most others can't.
Article on the portal and its effects on building and patience. Mention of more Year 2 firings which I don't think is likely. I think we'll see it with Harsin this year but with long term initial contracts (even 5-6 year ones), I find it hard to believe that most schools will eat up all that money. I think it'll still be a rarity.
Article is paywall but some excerpts:
On Washington :
Then he added Michael Penix Jr., whom he had coached at Indiana. And he added four more Power 5 transfers, including the team’s leading rusher, Wayne Taulapapa from Virginia.
The Huskies are 4-0 and lead the nation in passing offense after finishing 80th last season. Washington went from four wins in 2021 to the AP Top 15
“Certainly, in college athletics in general, there’s a mindset that you do need to win sooner than later,” he said.
On Tenn:
Tennessee’s star quarterback who beat Florida on Saturday to make the Volunteers 4-0 and move them into the Top 10 in Year 2 under Josh Heupel? He was a Power 5 transfer. (So is his backup.)
The Vols’ leading receiver in the game: a Power 5 transfer.
The cornerback whose interception sealed UT’s cathartic victory: a Power 5 transfer.
NCAA sanctions loomed (and still loom). Around two dozen players left Rocky Top, including the Vols’ starting running back, starting left tackle (both to Oklahoma) and two of the defense’s three top tacklers, who landed at Alabama and Michigan State. Oklahoma also swiped the Vols’ top-ranked signee in the Class of 2020.
Heupel never asked for patience, but he deserved it.
“How are we trying to build this? It’s a long-term vision,” he said at his introductory news conference. “I believe that we can have immediate success as well.”
But hardly anyone could have expected this level of success this quickly. Less than a season and a half into Heupel’s tenure, Tennessee secured the program’s highest ranking (No. 8) since 2006.
General Commentary:
But Washington is no outlier. Dozens of programs could, theoretically, do what Washington has done this season. DeBoer doesn’t have a resume full of No. 1 picks and Heisman Trophy winners and isn’t at a program with the same kind of history as USC.
But he has rebuilt the program, and specifically the offense, “Extreme Makeover: Home Edition”-style.
The era of “wait until he gets his guys in here” is already over.
“What the transfer portal does is it gives you an eye toward competing immediately instead of saying: ‘All right, look. We’re going to take our lumps. We’re going to build it with freshmen. It’s going to take some time,’” LSU coach Brian Kelly said.
Article is paywall but some excerpts:
On Washington :
Then he added Michael Penix Jr., whom he had coached at Indiana. And he added four more Power 5 transfers, including the team’s leading rusher, Wayne Taulapapa from Virginia.
The Huskies are 4-0 and lead the nation in passing offense after finishing 80th last season. Washington went from four wins in 2021 to the AP Top 15
“Certainly, in college athletics in general, there’s a mindset that you do need to win sooner than later,” he said.
On Tenn:
Tennessee’s star quarterback who beat Florida on Saturday to make the Volunteers 4-0 and move them into the Top 10 in Year 2 under Josh Heupel? He was a Power 5 transfer. (So is his backup.)
The Vols’ leading receiver in the game: a Power 5 transfer.
The cornerback whose interception sealed UT’s cathartic victory: a Power 5 transfer.
NCAA sanctions loomed (and still loom). Around two dozen players left Rocky Top, including the Vols’ starting running back, starting left tackle (both to Oklahoma) and two of the defense’s three top tacklers, who landed at Alabama and Michigan State. Oklahoma also swiped the Vols’ top-ranked signee in the Class of 2020.
Heupel never asked for patience, but he deserved it.
“How are we trying to build this? It’s a long-term vision,” he said at his introductory news conference. “I believe that we can have immediate success as well.”
But hardly anyone could have expected this level of success this quickly. Less than a season and a half into Heupel’s tenure, Tennessee secured the program’s highest ranking (No. 8) since 2006.
General Commentary:
But Washington is no outlier. Dozens of programs could, theoretically, do what Washington has done this season. DeBoer doesn’t have a resume full of No. 1 picks and Heisman Trophy winners and isn’t at a program with the same kind of history as USC.
But he has rebuilt the program, and specifically the offense, “Extreme Makeover: Home Edition”-style.
The era of “wait until he gets his guys in here” is already over.
“What the transfer portal does is it gives you an eye toward competing immediately instead of saying: ‘All right, look. We’re going to take our lumps. We’re going to build it with freshmen. It’s going to take some time,’” LSU coach Brian Kelly said.
Portal is definitely a great tool to speed up the process but you have to know how it all fits together. It's just as difficult as recruiting. Just getting a bunch of transfers on its face doesn't necessarily lead to results. Coaches have to be smart about it too but potential is there.
This other quote from DeBoer:
“Now, when different pieces can lead you down a path where you can have success right away, it definitely changes what people think and what they want to do,” DeBoer said. “But you can’t do it at the cost of not building your program the right way.”
Did these other coaches inherit similar types of rosters? End of argument.
In the interest of being fair and balanced, for whatever reason, Greg and Gleeson did not seek out a transfer portal QB. Did they try and not succeed? Did not not try, thinking that they were fine with the QB room they had? If the latter, then some fault is attributable to the coaching staff for putting their eggs in the wrong basket. Or, maybe not. Maybe all the QB woes will be solved when the OL gels? Maybe Simon needs just a bit more development (and maybe Gavin too). Time will tell. But we cannot jump to conclusions so quickly 4 games into the season.
Looking at Wahington (cited above) between 2012 and 2021:
Winning records 9 out of 10 years
4 Pac-12 North Division Championships
2 Pac-12 Overall Championships
I'd say the new coach indeed inherited a different type of roster. And indeed end of argument
Yes I heard that excuse the first time around, even 8 years later. But who's taking about being great? It doesn't take years to have a functioning offense .
No doubt and a really good coach knows how to work the transfer portal. But the bigger point is that the transfer portal allows you turn things around more quickly than you used to be able to so you should at least have a functioning offense by Year 3. You can't claim you don't have adequate personnel to score 1 TD per game.
You need a functioning offense to attract better players. You need better players to make the offense functional. See the conundrum with the portal?
The better players are not interested in RU currently because they don't want to wait for the offense to become functional even if they could be the solution to the problem. But since you are a message board guru on these matters please email Coach Schiano ASAP with the answers.
The offense was fairly dynamic and high-scoring in Year 1. Somehow they had the talent to score 3 or 4 TDs per game two years ago but now they don't. Or else the OC forgot how to make calls. Either way, Schiano needs at least 5 years. Like I said, I heard this for v1.0 and it never happened. I'm hearing the same lame excuses this time and I have little confidence the result will be different. But I expect the same people to make the same excuses for years and years. They don't want to win. They're just wedded to Schiano for some reason. I hope his fan boys are right this time because they were wrong last time.
This.
Need a HC that can recruit in the Portal Asap. Not just players who are borderline 2 deep but B1G ready players. I think the most recent Portal Class we got just 2 of these.
How do you think many of the major portal guys made their decisions this past year.
Posted this in the games thread, about Kansas adding a little misdirection and triple option out of the shotgun into their offense this year. Whether it's Leach's Air Raid, Clawson's delayed mesh, Chadwell's spread option or whatever.....trying to figure out creative ways to be effective is important.
Kansas football is fun again and here’s why
It’s time we talked about Kansas football being both a) competent and b)fun
www.sbnation.com
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DeBoer might be another. 67-3 at Sioux Falls in the lower levels and then stops here and there at OC doing well and improving things and then solid job as Fresno HC before this job at UW. Possibly the same theme, faces change but still get good results (in this case at coordinator too) then maybe positive pattern may be emerging of what he could be.
From an ESPN article on him:
In DeBoer's five seasons as head coach, Sioux Falls went 67-3 overall, 49-1 in conference play, won three national championships and in 2009 played up two levels of competition and beat FCS North Dakota 28-13.
AFTER SIOUX FALLS' dominant run, DeBoer embarked upon a coaching odyssey over the next decade.
At nearly every one of his stops in coaching, DeBoer helped elevate that program to historic success.
He spent four years as the offensive coordinator at FCS Southern Illinois (2010 to 2013) before a three-year stint on Chris Creighton's staff at Eastern Michigan (2014 to 2016), where in his final season he helped the Eagles reach their first bowl game in nearly three decades.
Jeff Tedford, then an analyst for Chris Petersen at Washington, took notice of DeBoer's offense at Eastern Michigan and hired him as his offensive coordinator when he was named the head coach at Fresno State prior to the 2017 season. In their first year together, Fresno State improved from 1-11 to 10-4, then went 12-2 in 2018 and finished No. 18 in the AP poll, the school's best finish in over 50 years.
"That move to coach with [Tedford] was big," DeBoer said. "You're talking about a guy that is very well known as an offensive guru. He had done it for many years at a very high level.
"We really meshed our systems together and refined what we have today. Those two years were huge."
In his lone season as the offensive coordinator at Indiana, where he worked with Penix Jr. in 2019, the Hoosiers appeared in the AP Top 25 for the first time in over two decades.
'Let's go do it now': Kalen DeBoer and Washington's incredible early-season turnaround
After a disastrous 2021 season, Kalen DeBoer has Washington flying high through September in his first year at the helm of the Huskies.
Good time Charlies? Sounds like the dames at the gin joint have been running their yaps.
It's a joke, from John Belushi's speech in the movie Animal House. Relax.
It comes down to win and loses. We can talk about what might have been we have to talk about what actually happened.
Some of our fans don't want to hear, or see, this.Posted this in the games thread, about Kansas adding a little misdirection and triple option out of the shotgun into their offense this year. Whether it's Leach's Air Raid, Clawson's delayed mesh, Chadwell's spread option or whatever.....trying to figure out creative ways to be effective is important.
Kansas football is fun again and here’s why
It’s time we talked about Kansas football being both a) competent and b)fun
I've never understood the "well it's a talent issue - it's unreasonable to expect the coaching staff to do anything with the current players to be competitive".
Do we just wait the 5 years for the staff to turn over the roster until we can score 20pts a game like the other 99% of CFB?
It's all excuses. It doesn't take 5 years to have a decent offense. We had a better offense in Year 1 than we have now.
