Jacob Young in practice

[RUChoppin]

I'll bite because I think you're soooo off here. In what world are PSU, Indiana and Northwestern a better team than us next year? Why is Illinois better than us? In fact there's really only 3 teams I can say without a shadow of a doubt I expect to better than us next year and that is Michigan, MSU and Iowa. I think we ultimately finish somewhere in the 6th-8th range and are a legit bubble team

Illinois: They lose very little, assuming Giorgi doesn't turn pro, with just Aaron Jordan graduating. They also add two 4-star centers (including #38 national player Cockburn). Dosunmu will be a sophomore, and Frazier a junior. I see them stepping up next year.

Northwestern: Lose three key seniors, but Kopp and Nance will slot in as sophomores and they add national #100 PF Beren and get Young off his redshirt year. They have depth, but remains to be seen how they put all the pieces together next year. We may be ahead of them? Might not be.

Indiana: Another young team, that loses only Morgan to graduation - though they may potentially lose Langford to the NBA, too. But they add national #20 Jackson-Davis at PF to replace Morgan, and had a loaded 2018 class that will all be sophomores. If Langford stays, they're a lot better next year... if he goes, they still may be better overall.

PSU: Again young, with just Reaves graduating and possibly Stevens turning pro - and they've had a lot of close games this season (7 of their 11 conference losses finished regulation down 7 points or less, and knocked off Michigan and VTech at home) . Not a lot of high projections for their 2018 or 2019 classes, though. If Stevens returns, they will probably be better.

 

[bac2therac]

I don't see why we can't do something similar to what Iowa did. They were 14-19 (4-14) last year. All they did was get older and add one really good freshman. We're going to do the same except get older and add one good PG (not as good as weiskamp obviously) and add one really solid 4th year player in jacob young. Maybe it's just 27 years of no tourney taking a toll on people but I really think next year this is a legit bubble team. Someone said it earlier but this has like an 04-05 football feel to it

because Iowa has shooters and showed the ability to put the ball in the hoop. Will RU be ready to win quality non conference games in the early season. Sorry but as optimistic and delighted I am about the freshmen potential, there is not consitency yet to make me think next year is a NCAA type year....now they could show it early next year and I might change my tune but for now am proceeding cautiously given the potential pitfalls ahead which we have seen in the past from other programs trying to move up

 

[RUChoppin]

I think I view this differently minutes wise. The way I see it is that between the 1-4 we will have 7 guys eating up 160 minutes between geo, mulcahy, young, montez, caleb, harper and eugene. I think we'll see some small lineups where harper plays the 4 and eugene plays the 5, kind of how we ended the illinois game.

That breakdown of minutes assumes Thiam/Kiss/Doucoure see zero minutes, and Carter sees <10 min. I think that's unlikely.

 

[RutgersMO]

B1G refs would have called a moving pick on us. :)

Or flagrant tech foul: he scored

MO

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

That breakdown of minutes assumes Thiam/Kiss/Doucoure see zero minutes, and Carter sees <10 min. I think that's unlikely.

I'd agree that 2 bodies on any given night might be out of the rotation. If i were to guess it would be Kiss and Issa, but as i have said it is way too early to have confidence.

As for the 4 and 5....maybe next year will be the year I am right about going smaller. It would definitely be on a matchup basis. I'd find it hard to believe on nights we didn't go small that we'd only be playing 3 bigs.....meaning Duke and Carter are getting combined 20+ minutes. i don't see Myles as playing more than 22 minutes on most nights.

 

[Scangg]

Kiss did play that game down the stretch. He did make a big 3 pointer. he was 3-5 from the field and 0-2 from the line. Didn't he get a defensive rebound that led to the play where he almost got a T.

YOU NEED A BIGGER SAMPLE SIZE!!!!!
Caleb has the highest TO% on the team.....should we conclude anything off that
Caleb has the highest steal% on the team...should we conclude he can cause more TO than Mathis?

Let's revisit this discussion in a few weeks. He has earned more PT and we will get useful information that will help us assess his future.

You only need a bigger sample size if you're talking about a statistical analysis.

Watch the game. Watch the players. If you can't tell Caleb is the far superior all around player with higher upside then just stick to being a stats guy. You're eye for basketball is just not good if you can't see it. I can't see how anyone who knows anything about basketball can't see it.

Again what does kiss do better than Caleb? No one can answer this simple question. Why? It's bc he's not better.

Should save and revisit this thread later for a good laugh at some of the takes here

 

[anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy]

Iowa could shoot the ball at a high level last year. It's easier to coach up defense and rebounding than shooting.

I agree, they have some serious shooters and that's a problem. However, next year we're going to have 3 guards who play suffocating defense and will be big problems for a team like iowa who's guards aren't overly athletic but just killer shooters. Jacob young, montez mathis and caleb are going to give iowa allll types of hell. That's why I'm confident we'll be able to deal with them. And Garza is a damn good big man but Myles J should be able to battle with him

 

[RUsojo]

I think I view this differently minutes wise. The way I see it is that between the 1-4 we will have 7 guys eating up 160 minutes between geo, mulcahy, young, montez, caleb, harper and eugene. I think we'll see some small lineups where harper plays the 4 and eugene plays the 5, kind of how we ended the illinois game.

This is the way to look at it. Pike has been very clear he wants to get more guards in and get smaller.

 

[anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy]

That breakdown of minutes assumes Thiam/Kiss/Doucoure see zero minutes, and Carter sees <10 min. I think that's unlikely.

correct, i don't think issa will be enrolled at RU next year. I think Kiss will be pretty much cut from the rotation and I'll believe duke's back at RU next year when I see it. it means that carter plays about 15 mins a night, Myles about 20 and the other 5 mins at the 5 go to eugene when we go nascar

 

[RUsojo]

correct, i don't think issa will be enrolled at RU next year. I think Kiss will be pretty much cut from the rotation and I'll believe duke's back at RU next year when I see it. it means that carter plays about 15 mins a night, Myles about 20 and the other 5 mins at the 5 go to eugene when we go nascar

Yeah Issa, Kiss, Douc can’t imagine they’ll be back.

 

[RUsojo]

If we finish 13th or 12th this year I think we will be picked last again next year but I don’t actaully think we will finish last. The public won’t give us credit. They’ll act in an “ill believe it when I see it consistently” way and they’ll defend their decision based on our lack of recruiting splashes.

But the margins at the bottom are really slim and I can’t blame anyone for picking us last (if they do their own research but I can blame them for being bias if they don’t. I mean I think we’re a better team than Northwestern but they still beat us by 7(?) at home. Hopefully tonight we take care of business.

 

[DHajekRC84]

Yeah Issa, Kiss, Douc can’t imagine they’ll be back.

Of those 3, the only one is I'd bet on is the first name. I think the other 2 are back. Just my opinion.

 

[RUsojo]

Of those 3, the only one is I'd bet on is the first name. I think the other 2 are back. Just my opinion.

I guess I can’t imagine they’ll play. I can imagine they’ll be back but I don’t think they will. I mean if we don’t use the ships I wouldn’t mind if one stayed for practce depth.

 

[higgins3]

I guess I can’t imagine they’ll play. I can imagine they’ll be back but I don’t think they will. I mean if we don’t use the ships I wouldn’t mind if one stayed for practce depth.

Players like Kiss who have been the show before are not going to stay around for a practice squad. I would be surprised if he didn't transfer.

Thiam leaving his last year? Not sure. I would say no.

 

[RUChoppin]

I guess I can’t imagine they’ll play. I can imagine they’ll be back but I don’t think they will. I mean if we don’t use the ships I wouldn’t mind if one stayed for practce depth.

You're expecting a roster of 9, then?

We have 11 scholarship players right now who are set to return next year, and you're assuming we have 3 transfers out and just Mulcahy coming in.

Doubtful.

 

[DHajekRC84]

I guess I can’t imagine they’ll play. I can imagine they’ll be back but I don’t think they will. I mean if we don’t use the ships I wouldn’t mind if one stayed for practce depth.

Doucs a mobster body that has some core skills. 3 years left. Clearly development needed but that's a body you want to keep at least another year.

 

[RUsojo]

You're expecting a roster of 9, then?

We have 11 scholarship players right now who are set to return next year, and you're assuming we have 3 transfers out and just Mulcahy coming in.

Doubtful.

Good point. We haven’t been recruiting well enough to just pick up new guys late in 2019 who can give more production. You’re probably right.

 

[higgins3]

McConnells overall game is something Kis

Doucs a mobster body that has some core skills. 3 years left. Clearly development needed but that's a body you want to keep at least another year.

I could see it. I think he plays 10-15 minutes at a mid/low D1 school. Or even a high D2 school.

 

[RUChoppin]

I expect Doucoure to come in and be a solid backup at PF/C next year, after taking this year to develop. I also expect Pike to work his tail off to get two strong bigs for 2020, because we can't go into 2020 with just Doucoure/Johnson on the roster in the post.

I'm not sure what role Kiss/Thiam will have, but one or the other will probably see 5-10 minutes on the wing.

All three have compelling reasons not to transfer, imo. Doucoure has a ton of minutes staring him in the face as an upperclassman if he continues to develop. Kiss already burned his RS year, and Thiam will be a senior and just a 2-for-1 pickup for any other team.

 

[Scangg]

I agree, they have some serious shooters and that's a problem. However, next year we're going to have 3 guards who play suffocating defense and will be big problems for a team like iowa who's guards aren't overly athletic but just killer shooters. Jacob young, montez mathis and caleb are going to give iowa allll types of hell. That's why I'm confident we'll be able to deal with them. And Garza is a damn good big man but Myles J should be able to battle with him

The Young Mathis Caleb lineup defensively is going to be a nightmare for opposing teams. Having Young matchup with some of the B1G PGs that we have struggled to deal with is going to be one of the key points to getting more wins next season.

 

[DHajekRC84]

McConnells overall game is something Kis


I could see it. I think he plays 10-15 minutes at a mid/low D1 school. Or even a high D2 school.

Understand. I just hope and would like to believe that if any of these guys going is because they agree its best and not shoved out.

 

[higgins3]

Understand. I just hope and would like to believe that if any of these guys going is because they agree its best and not shoved out.

I am with you. I don't necessarily like what college basketball has turned into. It's more of a business now than ever.

I do very much believe our staff would choose the route of being honest with the players. In fact, Pikiell has been very honest with his players.

He acquired some players left over from different regimes. He may have not recruited them in the first place.

I believe it's part of a coaches job to be able to evaluate players well enough to where they don't sit the bench half the year, or have a transfer after two.

 

[PiscatawayMike]

Players like Kiss who have been the show before are not going to stay around for a practice squad. I would be surprised if he didn't transfer.

Kiss already sat out a year as a transfer. He's not going to waste another season sitting.

 

[higgins3]

Kiss already sat out a year as a transfer. He's not going to waste another season sitting.

Piscataway!

You know much more than I. With the transfer rules, a player can only do that once?

He may realize he needs another year of improvement. I don't think he improved in the offseason as much as he would have liked.

 

[DHajekRC84]

I am with you. I don't necessarily like what college basketball has turned into. It's more of a business now than ever.

I do very much believe our staff would choose the route of being honest with the players. In fact, Pikiell has been very honest with his players.

He acquired some players left over from different regimes. He may have not recruited them in the first place.

I believe it's part of a coaches job to be able to evaluate players well enough to where they don't sit the bench half the year, or have a transfer after two.

Yes. Not a coaches job to play you but being clear to a player that their best interest may be elsewhere...no issue. In fact that's a good thing.

 

[DHajekRC84]

Kiss already sat out a year as a transfer. He's not going to waste another season sitting.

I guess he could go 1 more then grad transfer route. Unlike football I guess unless you really go down you can't easily do it without sitting.

Then again by next year sitting out may not even be a requirement.

Btw..I am not advocating for kiss to go anywhere. I hope he improves, it clicks. I would like for him to become a solid contributor.

 

[Degaz-RU]

Great thread, lots to digest here. I have a few responses.

Kiss has done more this season than Caleb. Mulcahy is in high school. Jacob Young was a 3rd guard at Texas.

I need more of a sample to see what Caleb really is. Need to take all his games in to consideration not his best or last.

I can't conclude that McConnell is better than Kiss. I have seen McConnell play god awful and i have seen him play very good. I have yet to see Pikiell put his trust in McConnell in a big spot. i really don't have a sense yet of what McConnell is.

You have to throw out the first 10 or 12 games in evaluating McConnell. He was a very green true freshman, and was clearly not ready. Now that he has his sea legs, I have to agree with Scangg's post a little bit above where he says it's clear just by WATCHING THE GAMES that McConnell is better than Kiss and has a higher upside. Season stats don't do McConnell justice (because he was not good in the first 10 or 12 games), but his play on the court the last 10 games (a big enough sample size to make this kind of evaluation) proves that he's the better overall player.

Timeline:
3/26/16 - Bullock commits
7/27/16 - Baker commits
11/11/16 - 2016-17 season starts
1/5/17 - Mensah commits
3/9/17 - 2016-17 season ends
3/24/17 - Johnson announces transfer

So, coming out of the 2016-17 season, we were looking at 2017-18 guards of Sanders, Baker, Williams, and Mensah.... and knowing that after the season Williams would graduate, and Sanders may bolt to the NBA. Bullock was also there, but was projected more as a 3 than a 1/2.

4/23/17 - Kiss transfers into RU

Kiss was the first guard added that would be eligible starting in the 2018-19 season, and at this point we were looking at Baker, Kiss, and Mensah as our backcourt, with some other prospects on the line.

8/3/17 - McClung commits
8/4/17 - Mathis commits
8/11/17 - Harper Jr. commits

Expectation at this point is that we'd have Baker, Mathis, McClung, Kiss, and Mensah as our backcourt with Harper, Thiam, and Bullock on the wing. Things were much more settled, and it looked as though Kiss may have to fight for his minutes on the wing with Harper.

10/6/17 - McClung decommits from Rutgers
10/15/17 - McClung commits to Georgetown
11/10/17 - 2017-18 season starts

Losing out on McClung, and realizing quickly that Mensah and Bullock were not going to be much help, we were now staring at Baker, Mathis, and Kiss as our backcourt with hopes that Sanders would return and watching the staff put a full court recruiting press on Tai Strickland.

3/2/18 - 2017-18 season ends
3/23/18 - Mensah and Bullock granted releases
3/27/18 - Strickland commits to Wisconsin
3/29/18 - Sanders hires agent to go to NBA

At this point, with Sanders' decision final and Mensah/Bullock gone, we were looking at a 2018-19 season that had only Baker, Mathis, and Kiss in the backcourt... and we'd missed out on both McClung and Strickland. Expectation is now that Kiss would see significant minutes at guard.

4/15/18 - McConnell commits
4/21/18 - Young transfers to RU
6/16/18 - Mulcahy commits

With three guards now coming into the roster, we finally had a full backcourt. 2018-19 would see Baker, Mathis, Kiss, and McConnell... with Young and Mulcahy waiting in the wings.

11/9/18 - 2018-19 season starts

Baker/Kiss are the starting guards for the first 9 games, and McConnell and Mathis try to get up to game speed as true freshmen. Harper also tries to get up to game speed and push Thiam for minutes. As the season progresses, Harper and Mathis enter the starting lineup, Kiss falls into a reserve role, and Thiam all but disappears. McConnell now starts to heat up, and it really feels like Kiss has been recruited over and will be fighting for minutes next year.

At the time he committed, it felt like Kiss was going to be called on to be a significant contributor, and as this season started he was one. I really don't see that as a "miss" - as much as a guy just getting passed by talented freshmen.

This is a TERRIFIC summary of how and why Pike decided to sign Kiss. I agree that Kiss is NOT a "miss" like Bullock and Mensah were, but simply a necessary stopgap who has been recruited over. He has value as a deep reserve and spot up shooter, but if he's not hitting those shots, his value is minimal.

It is possible we should get picked #11, but the reality is it would take a leap for people to pick RU over other schools.

I dunno, FIG, I think that if RU finishes 10th to 12th this year, I think the media (who votes on these things) will see that RU only loses one player (Doorson), has a superb freshman class who will all become sophomores, and adds two MAJOR pieces in Young and Mulcahy, and therefore will slot us somewhere in the 10 to 12 range before next season. Objectively, and without considering past history, I don't know how media members could pick us for 14th next year under these circumstances.

As a more general matter, and not responding to anybody's specific posts, I think that, as Rutgers fans who have been conditioned to think that we're a bad program -- because we HAVE been a bad program -- there might be a tendency to underestimate the quality of our team versus other teams. Concomitantly, I think there is a tendency to overestimate players on other teams simply because of their recruiting rankings and the fact that they play for traditionally blue chip programs.

I don't think I agree with kyk that we WILL finish 6th through 8th next year, but I do think that we have the TALENT to do so, so it all depends how things play out. I'm confident that the defense will improve next year (because Pike emphasizes it and has already proven that he can have good defensive teams), and it's pretty clear that our Freshmen Four are on target to improve even more next year, so it will only take a little bit of improvement in shooting to put us in the mix to be a mid-pack B1G team next year, getting close to the NCAA bubble.

Setting all that aside, I'm just glad we're talking about our Rhoops program in mostly positive terms again.

 

[kcg88]

McConnell also had a foot injury over the summer.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Throwing out my stats what I think honestly of Caleb....

Does he have the lateral quickness to stay with defenders?
What about his handle?
Can he get to the rim?

He isn’t overly athletic.

Shooting is very important and I need more of a sample here.

If he isn’t a plus shooter.........

To be fair I have similar questions about Geo.

We are rated 14th out of 14th in the conference for a reason. All positions need upgrades.

 

[RUby RED]

Only at Rutgers do we shoot down optimism for players that have given us good reason to be optimistic

 

[BaseballFan913]

Everyone needs to take a deep breath. Next years' rotation will work itself out in practice and OOC next year. Enjoy this year. It's been fun. Whether Caleb or Pete are better is irrelevant. We should be supporting both of them. At the end of the day, you either trust Pike to make the best choice or should want him canned. Personally, I trust him.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

Everyone needs to take a deep breath. Next years' rotation will work itself out in practice and OOC next year. Enjoy this year. It's been fun. Whether Caleb or Pete are better is irrelevant. We should be supporting both of them. At the end of the day, you either trust Pike to make the best choice or should want him canned. Personally, I trust him.

I know it's message board conversation and speculation.....but, projecting next years minutes while we still have 7 games left this year, and while two incoming players that will be on the roster are still in HS......wow.

 

[bac2therac]

I know it's message board conversation and speculation.....but, projecting next years minutes while we still have 7 games left this year, and while two incoming players that will be on the roster are still in HS......wow.

rare agreement, we have posters who have declared that Geo and Montez will be coming off the bench next year....sigh....also have made Caleb out to be the best player on the team off of one performance vs Illinois

 

[rubigtimenow]

Timeline:
3/26/16 - Bullock commits
7/27/16 - Baker commits
11/11/16 - 2016-17 season starts
1/5/17 - Mensah commits
3/9/17 - 2016-17 season ends
3/24/17 - Johnson announces transfer

So, coming out of the 2016-17 season, we were looking at 2017-18 guards of Sanders, Baker, Williams, and Mensah.... and knowing that after the season Williams would graduate, and Sanders may bolt to the NBA. Bullock was also there, but was projected more as a 3 than a 1/2.

4/23/17 - Kiss transfers into RU

Kiss was the first guard added that would be eligible starting in the 2018-19 season, and at this point we were looking at Baker, Kiss, and Mensah as our backcourt, with some other prospects on the line.

8/3/17 - McClung commits
8/4/17 - Mathis commits
8/11/17 - Harper Jr. commits

Expectation at this point is that we'd have Baker, Mathis, McClung, Kiss, and Mensah as our backcourt with Harper, Thiam, and Bullock on the wing. Things were much more settled, and it looked as though Kiss may have to fight for his minutes on the wing with Harper.

10/6/17 - McClung decommits from Rutgers
10/15/17 - McClung commits to Georgetown
11/10/17 - 2017-18 season starts

Losing out on McClung, and realizing quickly that Mensah and Bullock were not going to be much help, we were now staring at Baker, Mathis, and Kiss as our backcourt with hopes that Sanders would return and watching the staff put a full court recruiting press on Tai Strickland.

3/2/18 - 2017-18 season ends
3/23/18 - Mensah and Bullock granted releases
3/27/18 - Strickland commits to Wisconsin
3/29/18 - Sanders hires agent to go to NBA

At this point, with Sanders' decision final and Mensah/Bullock gone, we were looking at a 2018-19 season that had only Baker, Mathis, and Kiss in the backcourt... and we'd missed out on both McClung and Strickland. Expectation is now that Kiss would see significant minutes at guard.

4/15/18 - McConnell commits
4/21/18 - Young transfers to RU
6/16/18 - Mulcahy commits

With three guards now coming into the roster, we finally had a full backcourt. 2018-19 would see Baker, Mathis, Kiss, and McConnell... with Young and Mulcahy waiting in the wings.

11/9/18 - 2018-19 season starts

Baker/Kiss are the starting guards for the first 9 games, and McConnell and Mathis try to get up to game speed as true freshmen. Harper also tries to get up to game speed and push Thiam for minutes. As the season progresses, Harper and Mathis enter the starting lineup, Kiss falls into a reserve role, and Thiam all but disappears. McConnell now starts to heat up, and it really feels like Kiss has been recruited over and will be fighting for minutes next year.

At the time he committed, it felt like Kiss was going to be called on to be a significant contributor, and as this season started he was one. I really don't see that as a "miss" - as much as a guy just getting passed by talented freshmen.

Wow, thanks for that summary! Great historical lesson and really appreciated!

 

[higgins3]

Throwing out my stats what I think honestly of Caleb....

Does he have the lateral quickness to stay with defenders?
What about his handle?
Can he get to the rim?

He isn’t overly athletic.

Shooting is very important and I need more of a sample here.

If he isn’t a plus shooter.........

To be fair I have similar questions about Geo.

We are rated 14th out of 14th in the conference for a reason. All positions need upgrades.

Right now Rutgers is rated 14? It wasn't stats about McConnell. It was if Kiss was better than McConnell. Before this thread became confusing, that is what I thought it was.

 

[AshCatchEm]

Is kiss better than McConnell? Some people really can't evaluate talent while it's slapping them in the face. Kiss is not a program builder. McConnell has the potential to be. His potential demolishes kiss's potential into a fine dust.

 

[anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy]

Players like Kiss who have been the show before are not going to stay around for a practice squad. I would be surprised if he didn't transfer.

Thiam leaving his last year? Not sure. I would say no.

Where's kiss gonna go? He already sat out a year, he's not gonna sit another. He's sticking around as a reserve and will likely grad transfer to a lower level school like a st peters/monmouth after the 2020 season

 

[anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy]

Throwing out my stats what I think honestly of Caleb....

Does he have the lateral quickness to stay with defenders?
What about his handle?
Can he get to the rim?

He isn’t overly athletic.

Shooting is very important and I need more of a sample here.

If he isn’t a plus shooter.........

To be fair I have similar questions about Geo.

We are rated 14th out of 14th in the conference for a reason. All positions need upgrades.

my eyes are literally squinting to make sure i'm reading your posts right. Lateral quickness to stay with guys? He's arguably our best defender. He's a great defender.
Handle? I don't think he's a point I think he's more of a 2 guard but can definitely get to the rim and has shown it.
He's a tremendous shooter and has a pretty looking stroke.

 

[RUChoppin]

Thiam will finish out his career in scarlet next year. Kiss will play next year, with the option of a grad year somewhere else. Doucoure right now is one of only 2 bigs on the roster after next year, and I don't see him going after a redshirt season.

Could be wrong, and I know that it's very rare to have zero transfers after a season, but I don't see a compelling case for anyone on the roster to leave after this year.

After next year, that may be a different story, depending on how the fight for minutes falls out and what recruits we have coming for 2020.

 

[kcg88]

Where's kiss gonna go? He already sat out a year, he's not gonna sit another. He's sticking around as a reserve and will likely grad transfer to a lower level school like a st peters/monmouth after the 2020 season

His Quinnipiac teammate Mikey Dixon just transferred from St. John's after sitting out a year. You never know.

I'll again state that I wouldn't want him or Thiam run off the team because it's not like we're overflowing with highly-rated guys who want to come here.

Heck we couldn't fill the final scholarship THIS season. What happens if Doucoure, Thiam, and Kiss all decide to transfer? Then we have four open scholarships. How confident are you we can replace those with better talent?