Just curious - how far can't Laviano throw now?
- Thread starter RU4Real
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A very reasonable post.
With regards to the coaches knowing better (or not), I would point out that it depends on if we're comparing coaches to other coaches, or coaches to fans. Between two coaches with the same level of access to the QBs (field practice, classroom time, film study time) can legitimately disagree about what they see.
And I'm pretty sure that our coaching staff revisits their decisions about many of the starting players, including the QB, periodically. Again, the coaching staff has the most to lose here. Doesn't mean they'll get it right all the time; they won't. But nobody else is nearly as motivated as the coaching staff to get it right.
And yeah, there are certainly coaches (the Fridge, for example) who can legitimately claim to know better than many other coaches when it comes to developing QBs and even selecting starting QBs. So some coaches, given full access for even a limited period of time, have the potential to make better choices than do other coaches w/even more time.
My problem is when fans, with something like 1/20th or 1/30th the access of the coaching staff, claim to know better than the coaching staff which of the QBs is the most likely to produce a win. This is completely illogical. For the most part, we fans don't know what the hell we're talking about (no offense everybody). It's still fun to debate all this stuff.
Is it remotely possible a fan might be right and the coaching staff might be wrong? Sure. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. But fans have a vastly oversimplified view of the situation and most of the tough decision making involves details most of us fans are simply unaware of. Also, fans have considerably less to lose and are therefore in a position where wishful thinking can displace logic without consequences. Coaches don't have that luxury.
You better re-watch his 1st TD toss to Caroo...the ball had plenty of zip and he threaded it home on the $$$$...people have wanted Rettig ever since he came aboard as a premier recruit from LSU...Hayden is the Golden Child in waiting and may be the one ...for me... I don't care who is our QB ...just win
I am not sure though that should be the relevant metric though. The more appropriate question is whether or not he is the most effective qb on the roster. And no one really knows the answer to that question because the other kid has his ass nailed to the bench despite looking great in his only limited game action. I understand you can't handle qb's the same as other positions on the roster, but it would be nice to see Rettig get some chances to show what he can do and then lets decide who should be playing. If Ohio St can find ways to get both guys some snaps, we should be able too as well. Flood lost any benefit of the doubt with me when it comes to handling qb's based on the obstinately stubborn decision making he showed with Gary Nova.
What I like most about him right now is that he's being appropriately cautious and measured for someone at his experience level. I said before the season that I wanted whichever QB won the competition to not turn the ball over a lot. And while we have turned the ball over a bit too much in the earlier games, I've seen progress in each game so far this season in Laviano's decision making insofar as protecting the ball.
With his play against MSU, I completely agree with you that Laviano is in a better place than I've seen from any other young RU QB at this stage of their career here.
As he gains experience, I think he will start to release the ball a bit earlier and throw a bit deeper. Right now, he's trying to see as much as possible before throwing and while that has an associated cost, it's also going a long way towards preventing the 5 INT games we saw with Nova earlier in his career.
Hopefully some of this is down to coaching. And hopefully Retting and the other QBs are getting the same coaching and if and when they get their chance, they will be equally careful with the ball as they gain experience.
Some people are undoubtedly going to argue that Laviano is being too cautious or something along those lines. And while that can be a valid argument, I'd remind those people that we have an incredibly inexperienced secondary at this point. We can't afford to constantly put our D in the position of having to defend short fields and expect to win games. A proof of this, look at this last game. We had a tied and the D couldn't stop MSU from scoring. That, as much as anything else, cost us the game.
We can't take as many chances on offense as we might if we had a stronger D. The good news is that the D is improving rapidly just like Laviano. Now if we can just keep everyone out of jail for next season, things could be looking up.
No matter how well Laviano does I always think back to Bobby's quote at the end of camp that Retting has been "lights out" and has something that no other QB has had since he started covering RU.
Our coaches know best? Really, then why are our QBs never drafted (last one was by the Lions & he play for Shea)?
Under the current HC (at the time Co-Offensive Coordinator) a decision was made to beach Tom Savage for a freshman named Chas Dodd...then Dodd was treated the same way when we got Nova. Nova was marginal at best, Dodd never got out from under the idea he'd play again, and Savage transferred and was an All-American at Pitt.
They got that one dead wrong and they are likely doing it again. We as fans should question their decisions, especially when this year has proven that their ability to make the correct ones is suspect. I mean they can't even follow university protocol.
Don't fool yourself that our coaching staff knows anything.
Under the current HC (at the time Co-Offensive Coordinator) a decision was made to beach Tom Savage for a freshman named Chas Dodd...then Dodd was treated the same way when we got Nova. Nova was marginal at best, Dodd never got out from under the idea he'd play again, and Savage transferred and was an All-American at Pitt.
They got that one dead wrong and they are likely doing it again. We as fans should question their decisions, especially when this year has proven that their ability to make the correct ones is suspect. I mean they can't even follow university protocol.
Don't fool yourself that our coaching staff knows anything.
I recall the same quote from Flood. I recall him saying something to that effect in a press conference back before game one.
OSU's situation is very different from ours. Also, OSU's QB play in the earlier games (I watched them) was pretty damn bad. They are really good QBs for sure, and they got their act together in this last game, but they were not playing well prior to that for whatever reason.
Seriously - our fans would've roasted both QBs as well as Meyer for all the poor play in their first three or four games. Lucky for OSU, they have great depth across all positions so they can survive bad play from a position group (even QB) and still win.
Mike Teel was drafted by the Seahawks in the 6th round of the 2009 draft.
I agree our head coaches were never known for handling QBs well. But, it doesn't mean that what Flood is currently doing is not best.
I stand corrected.
While I do agree with your point, it just begs the question is it the best? This season has brought back a case of the "Shea Daze" I tried so hard to escape, seems like Flood is traveling down the same path.
Laviano looked good this weekend, if not for the way it ended many would not be critical of his performance. I have been very critical of him all season. The concern I still have for him is still regarding arm strength. No arm strength is not just how far he can throw the ball vertically down field, although that is part of it. The most important part of arm strength is getting it to the receiver in stride and with pop. Still have yet to see that from Laviano.
Dodd never got out from under the idea he'd play again, and Savage transferred and was an All-American at Pitt.
ARE YOU CRAZY! Savage was NEVER an ALL Amercican at PITT, he wasn't even all ACC.
You people make up shi$ as you go along thinking the rest of us are as ignorant as you!
G GS ATT COMP PCT YARDS INT TD EFFIC
2009* 12 11 285 149 52.3 2,211 7 14 128.75
2010* 6 4 83 43 51.8 521 3 2 105.2
2013 13 13 389 238 61.2 2,958 9 21 138.24
Career 31 28 757 430 56.8 5,690 19 37 131.05
ARE YOU CRAZY! Savage was NEVER an ALL Amercican at PITT, he wasn't even all ACC.
You people make up shi$ as you go along thinking the rest of us are as ignorant as you!
G GS ATT COMP PCT YARDS INT TD EFFIC
2009* 12 11 285 149 52.3 2,211 7 14 128.75
2010* 6 4 83 43 51.8 521 3 2 105.2
2013 13 13 389 238 61.2 2,958 9 21 138.24
Career 31 28 757 430 56.8 5,690 19 37 131.05
Coaches make bad decisions all the time. Some of those decisions are obviously bad to any big fan. Let's not act like they are infallible.
I have yet to see anybody on these boards act like coaches are infallible. What I do see a lot is fans that act as if they themselves are infallible in their opinions about coaching (or QB play, or lots of other things). Which is, I guess, par for the course on fan message boards like this.
It's easy to stand on the sidelines and throw stones. But sometimes fans who aren't so absorbed in a single program can see things coaches cannot. The coaches get tunnel vision.
True. Coaches do get tunnel vision all the time about many things, personnel, schemes, etc. Even really good coaches. It's almost unavoidable.
Not sure fan opinions are the answer, though. Fans are often very provincial in their thinking because they don't see that the same things that they complain about in their own program goes on in pretty much every program to greater or lesser extents.
Having said that, we do have some fans on our message board that I think periodically provide some really good feedback that's seemingly based on a broader than the average bear view of CFB. Posters that spend the time to understand other programs in much more depth than just watching the games.
Only way I know of, personally, to combat the very natural tendency to get tunnel vision in coaching is to periodically bring in outside experienced coaches to observe everything and offer up their thoughts. To an extent, I think the Fridge served that purpose last year and to a lesser extent, this year too. And I think we're better for it.
But it's probably a difficult thing to arrange outside of bringing in fresh coaching talent.
Remember HCKF's mantra is to play the players that give us the best chance to win. If CL is the QB that gives us the best chance to win, we are looking 4-8 or at best 5-7. Rettig must be really bad.
I don't think this is a binary thing.
Starting Laviano (or favoring Laviano) doesn't mean that Rettig is bad. Favoring Rettig doesn't mean Laviano is bad. Questioning the playcalling doesn't mean the QB or the OC are necessarily bad.
I think Laviano's done a very good job with what he's been asked to do, aside from a few brain fart moments that aren't entirely unexpected from a RS Soph in his first season starting. It's curious/frustrating that he hasn't thrown deep much, but that might be as much or more on the OC than the QB (and Rettig may have had the same handcuffs if he were in the game).
Starting Laviano (or favoring Laviano) doesn't mean that Rettig is bad. Favoring Rettig doesn't mean Laviano is bad. Questioning the playcalling doesn't mean the QB or the OC are necessarily bad.
I think Laviano's done a very good job with what he's been asked to do, aside from a few brain fart moments that aren't entirely unexpected from a RS Soph in his first season starting. It's curious/frustrating that he hasn't thrown deep much, but that might be as much or more on the OC than the QB (and Rettig may have had the same handcuffs if he were in the game).
Now you are on to something !! Rettig most likely has some serious shortcomings that are clearly evident during the teams closed scrimmages and practices. Must have some proclivity to throw picks or make bad decisions on pressure situations. Just because he has not had game time in front of us fans for us to witness the same thing ... does not mean it is not happening. Fortunately for the kid, the coaches do not have to explain every problem Rettig may have that is causing him to sit the bench. A lot of what Flood said publicly about the two being neck and neck in camp was likely sugar coating things for Rettigs benefit so as not to hurt his confidence.
I suspect that at least part of the reason we haven't been constantly throwing deep balls is that our QB protection has been a bit of a concern. He had half decent protection during the MSU game I thought. So perhaps we'll see more deep balls against Indiana (assuming we protect well in that game).
He never wanted to play Rettig.When Duggan broke down favorable Rettig scrimmage stats,Flood went ballistic & banned the press.However,for some unknown reason he extended the competition & Duggan & Bobby felt Rettig could be something special & had even surpassed Laviano.Then worst of all for Flood,the genie was taken out of the bottle & Rettig showed multiple skills during NSU(Flood had mandatory Laviano wrist slap).That mistake will not be repeated unless Laviano is injured.Just my take & the above( RUnion) is beyond rank speculation.He has already f'ckd with Rettigs' confidence,so sugar coat theory is ridiculous IMHO..
That could definitely be part of the reason.
A few things I've thought of:
1. Exactly what you said - McDaniels doesn't have enough confidence in the line to send in deep ball plays that take longer to develop
2. McDaniels is trying to bring build up his QB more conservatively, building confidence through efficiency while Laviano gains live experience, which will ultimately lead to opening up the playbook.
3. McDaniels doesn't have enough confidence in Laviano to deliver the long ball (e.g. not enough arm, floats it too much, doesn't consistently see the safety, risk of picks, mechanics, whatever)
4. McDaniels doesn't think the deep ball helps our offense, for whatever reason
5. Laviano doesn't have faith in his line to protect him, and looks for his check down rather than the deep routes.
All possibilities. I think #3 would actually say more about Rettig than about Laviano. Because if Laviano truly didn't have the ability to make all the required throws to the satisfaction of the coaching staff, then Rettig would have to be lacking something significant not to be on the field.
You got it backwards. Connor Cook was rescued by his receivers for throwing passes to guys who were covered like a blanket. Without those heroics, we win.
Unless you are talking about last year's game.
WHAT!? Savage was an All American at Pitt? What a fracking idiot. " Never let the truth get in the way of a good story".
That depends, I'd think. Each, I'm sure, has their strengths and weaknesses. As a possible example (that has no bearing on reality, because I don't know what the coaches are seeing in practice or on film), Rettig may have the better arm but Laviano may be better at reading defenses - and the choice may be to shrink the playbook and be conservative, or go boom/bust and risk more INTs. Not being in the film room, I can't really speak to their reasons.
As I said in another thread, to think that the bad decisions by Laviano on the sack (yes, he should've avoided it) and the spike (d'oh! a big mistake - but the bigger issue was not having any TOs left, which CL had nothing to do with) would mean he doesn't start this week is just ludicrous.
I wanted to see Rettig start after NSU and after CL's poor performance against PSU. But we didn't. And CL played well against Kansas and very well against a very good MSU defense, so why the hell would he be benched now? That's right he won't.
And I'm dumbfounded people are criticizing his 3 TD passes to Carroo. First one was an absolute dart to a place only Carroo could catch it and he did. Second pass was the bomb under intense pressure and yes, it was a little underthrown, but with a guy like Carroo, underthrown is not necessarily a bad thing - it also wasn't like he had to come back for the ball. Third TD pass was perfect - you always want to underthrow a ball a little to a wide-open WR and that's what CL did, since nearly 100% of overthrown passes won't be caught! CL also made an awesome play fake on that play, as did Carroo, getting the DBs to bite and allowing Carroo an easy TD.
While it's possible we'll see Rettig later, due to injury or poor performance by CL, right now CL is not a "problem" - we do have other problems we need to address, although, even those are looking better, i.e., the secondary played its best game (took some great throws/catches to beat very good coverage on a number of plays - there's a reason why MSU is #4 in the country), the OL is looking better with each game and we even put pressure on the QB with selected blitzes. Let's beat Indiana and then see if we can get to 6 wins and a bowl.
I wanted to see Rettig start after NSU and after CL's poor performance against PSU. But we didn't. And CL played well against Kansas and very well against a very good MSU defense, so why the hell would he be benched now? That's right he won't.
And I'm dumbfounded people are criticizing his 3 TD passes to Carroo. First one was an absolute dart to a place only Carroo could catch it and he did. Second pass was the bomb under intense pressure and yes, it was a little underthrown, but with a guy like Carroo, underthrown is not necessarily a bad thing - it also wasn't like he had to come back for the ball. Third TD pass was perfect - you always want to underthrow a ball a little to a wide-open WR and that's what CL did, since nearly 100% of overthrown passes won't be caught! CL also made an awesome play fake on that play, as did Carroo, getting the DBs to bite and allowing Carroo an easy TD.
While it's possible we'll see Rettig later, due to injury or poor performance by CL, right now CL is not a "problem" - we do have other problems we need to address, although, even those are looking better, i.e., the secondary played its best game (took some great throws/catches to beat very good coverage on a number of plays - there's a reason why MSU is #4 in the country), the OL is looking better with each game and we even put pressure on the QB with selected blitzes. Let's beat Indiana and then see if we can get to 6 wins and a bowl.
Well, I agree with what you said. But it doesn't contradict what I was saying about #3.
My point is, if Laviano didn't have the ability to make all the necessary throws, which would be a pretty glaring problem, and the coaching staff still puts him on the field on Saturdays, then there would have to be something even more glaringly wrong with the other potential QBs.
In the case of Laviano and Rettig, I don't believe there are any such glaring problems.
I think the situation is most likely to be what you described where they have their relative strengths and weaknesses and when those strengths and weaknesses are added up and weighed against the coaching staff's priorities, Laviano must have come out a little bit ahead. But that both are capable of playing and winning for RU.
Michigan for one. This is not the B12. Every other team in this league plays defense.
I am a little concerned that the bar is being set so low for QB play based on what the most recent RU QB play has been like under Schiano and for the most part, we are comparing Laviano to QB's that over 12 out of the last 15 years of play has been bad to average.
I think we recall Teel's last 7 starts as some sort of happy medium over his 3+ years as a starter and then we have had Savage/Dodd/Nova over the last 7 year span, where we have not seen consistent play at any point and time.
If we are fair and look at QB play around the country and the conferences that develop QB's, it's very likely none of our QB's break the lineup of most top 40-50 programs where this program has landed over the last 6-8 years. A program that needs to take the next step or doesn't have a complete overhaul that is dominate at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball (ala Wisconsin), needs a Russo/Rettig type of player to elevate it, so it can recruit better and get better kids to maximize the performance on the offensive side of the ball down the road. We are not seeing that with any recent QB's and at least the eye test indicates that Rettig, Dare or Russo at least come with the pedigree of being able to throw the ball, down the field.
I am not so much worried about whether Rettig beats out Laviano as much as there seems to be a fanbase that believes it's acceptable to not have a complete QB. Until Laviano takes those steps in the next 3 to 4 games, it's hard to expect that game experience is going to improve that aspect of the game or RU's offense.
I think we recall Teel's last 7 starts as some sort of happy medium over his 3+ years as a starter and then we have had Savage/Dodd/Nova over the last 7 year span, where we have not seen consistent play at any point and time.
If we are fair and look at QB play around the country and the conferences that develop QB's, it's very likely none of our QB's break the lineup of most top 40-50 programs where this program has landed over the last 6-8 years. A program that needs to take the next step or doesn't have a complete overhaul that is dominate at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball (ala Wisconsin), needs a Russo/Rettig type of player to elevate it, so it can recruit better and get better kids to maximize the performance on the offensive side of the ball down the road. We are not seeing that with any recent QB's and at least the eye test indicates that Rettig, Dare or Russo at least come with the pedigree of being able to throw the ball, down the field.
I am not so much worried about whether Rettig beats out Laviano as much as there seems to be a fanbase that believes it's acceptable to not have a complete QB. Until Laviano takes those steps in the next 3 to 4 games, it's hard to expect that game experience is going to improve that aspect of the game or RU's offense.
Hmm.. similar to Laviano's numbers (only seem to have JV)
linky
And keep in mind.. Conner Cook threw and INT in this game, Laviano did not.. who won?
Your premise that Laviano is not a complete QB fails the logic test. If Laviano is an incomplete QB, then it stands to reason that all the other QBs on our roster must be even more incomplete. Or else they'd be starting instead of the incomplete one.
Unless you're someone who thinks the coaching staff would intentionally select a QB that gives us less chance to win than another QB for some reason. It would have to be one heck of a reason though, because it could cost the coaching staff their jobs. And that scenario fails the simplicity test.
I suppose the other possibility is that Flood and crew are somehow unable to determine who the better QB is, right? But even if that's so, it's not like Retting can be way better than Laviano. Because if he was so much better, it'd be obvious and no coaching staff could fail to notice it. So it stands to reason that whoever is better, the difference is very subtle. And that, most likely, the difference in the overall team performance will be equally subtle.
