MIP (Most Important Player) This Season Will Be Mag (and some observations)

[RU848789]

I'm fine with easing Mag back into things, but after tonights less-than-stellar performance, we really need his defensive intensity and athleticism, as well as his rebounding - and oh yeah, probably even his ability to make a layup. We'll be a bottom 1/3 of the B1G team without him and a middle of the pack/bubble team with him, IMO. The only reasons I'm not jumping off the ledge yet are that it's early and Princeton is a very good, disciplined, experienced team that shoots and passes well and plays sound defense, and hopefully we'll get Mag back soon.

Tonight was possibly the worst defensive and rebounding performance I've ever seen from a Pike team, including a noticeable lack of hustle at times. Pike has some work to do. Here are a few random comments/observations from the game.

• Cliff could've eaten this team alive, but our guards didn't do a good job of getting him the ball in position. He missed a couple, but he also had some very nice shots from inside 10 feet including a couple of nice baby hooks (which are unstoppable given his size). 12/7/4 is decent - he's not the reason we lost.
• In fact, I'd say our guards didn't do that much well. Simpson played poorly with no hoops til the last bucket, Fernandes did ok with 10/3, but was 3-10 and didn't play great defense, Davis was 2-10, but I did like his intensity as he had 7 boards, and Williams had 7 points, but often played ole defense. While these guys are mostly faster than out guards last year, they're generally smaller and didn't play great half court defense.
• Hyatt looked like the same old Hyatt, missing layups and getting beat off the dribble. He needs to score for us to be better and 0-5 isn't going to cut it.
• Gaving simply isn't ready yet, looking completely lost on defense at times, but he also showed off his shot as his two buckets were very nice. He'll get better, I'm sure.
• Woolfolk and Oskar probably had the best games for the squad, as Woolfolk had 10/4 with 2 steals and Oskar had 8/2 with 3 steals.
• I did like that we made several runs, making things close, but every time we did so, we seemed to have terrible defensive mental lapses, giving up easy layups or putbacks. It also hurts to only go 4-14 from deep, while giving up 9-20 - all else being equal (which it's not), that was the difference in the game.
• No issues with Cure Arena, itself (had good seats), although I heard parking was a mess after about 6 pm (we got there by 5 pm); Trenton Social seems like a decent place, but had no staff, so we couldn't get drinks in 10 minutes and left and ate at Taco Bell, since the arena didn't open until 5:50 pm. The pork roll sandwich in the arena was quite good.
• Good turnout of RU fans: was 90+% RU there, which is surprising given how good PU was last year.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Three things that appear obvious
1. Gavin is lost on D
2. Healthy Mag is a W
3. Guards didnt get Cliff the ball

agree 100% with what you say

 

[RU848789]

Three things that appear obvious
1. Gavin is lost on D
2. Healthy Mag is a W
3. Guards didnt get Cliff the ball

agree 100% with what you say

Thanks. #1 is fixable with some time (it's natural for frosh), #2 should be ok soon, but #3 really concerns me, as does our guard play in general.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Time could be a few months

 

[knight_ru]

I know it isn’t in Pike’s DNA … but isn’t this roster a decent fit for a 3-2 zone?

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Very strange observation about Mag being important to the defense, when Princeton scored all of 68 points. What is the reasonable expectation, to hold teams to scoring in the high 50s to 60 PTS??

I don't know how many times I can post the obvious item and the staff is building a program that can sustain and play against opponents like Princeton and Lafayette, but also has to have the length and athletic abilities to defend, rebound and actually score off the dribble from the SF and PF positions.

Mag is a versatile defensive player, but Woolfolk played his position extremely well on both ends of the floor last night. Mawot Mag playing isn't going to auto-correct Aundre Hyatt missing 3 to 4 foot shots, or Austin Williams missing layups.....it's also not going to force the referees to call obvious fouls on Princeton, when Noah Fernandes is mugged 2 to 3 times and scoring through contact in the paint.

Mag also has zero impact on Davis playing out of control on offense OR helping the coaching staff understand that Simpson needs to play on the ball to start the offense.

The recruiting of 1 dimensional players like Mag, like Hyatt, like Chol or Palmquist, who cannot create offense off the dribble, cannot consistently knock down makeable shots AND play plus defense, is the issue.

The 2024 wings or PFs, like Bryce Dortch, like Dylan Grant are multi-talented 6'7 to 6'8 players who can create their own offense off the dribble, can knock down perimeter shots at times and more importantly, can switch on defense and rebound.....then they have the abilities to initiate the offense by advancing the basketball. Mag, Hyatt, Palmquist nor Chol, has the skill set to become a reasonable shooter or go to offensive player AND play plus level defense.

The only path towards improvement this year AND beyond, is to develop Woolfolk at the 4 AND allow him to play 8 to 10 minutes per game at the 5. He is fast, athletic, can defend/rebound and can score in the post. He's the answer to whatever limitations or expectations fans want to place on Mag.

We have to be fair and reasonable on expectations for Mag, trying to get his legs under him AND performing at a high level with mostly new teammates for extended minutes.

Ideally he eventually gets to 10 to 12 minutes and takes about 10 games or so to get adjusted, then hopefully he can play up to 16 or so minutes a game and compliment Woolfolk, who is hopefully a mirror image of that type of player. Both should be able to defend, rebound and help Cliff on the glass.

Once RU gets legitimate, 2 way forwards like Ace Bailey, Dortch, and Dylan Grant into the program and we hopefully develop Woolfolk to fit that model, is when RU goes from 17 to 19 wins, to 22 to 24 wins overnight. Will that happen fast enough this year to make the NCAAS in 2023-24?? It's not going to be based on Mag's return to form.....it's going to be based on cleaning up the order and lineup in the backcourt. You're team is only going to be as good as how your guard play develops on offense and defense.

 

[rudad02]

I'm fine with easing Mag back into things, but after tonights less-than-stellar performance, we really need his defensive intensity and athleticism, as well as his rebounding - and oh yeah, probably even his ability to make a layup. We'll be a bottom 1/3 of the B1G team without him and a middle of the pack/bubble team with him, IMO. The only reasons I'm not jumping off the ledge yet are that it's early and Princeton is a very good, disciplined, experienced team that shoots and passes well and plays sound defense, and hopefully we'll get Mag back soon.

Tonight was possibly the worst defensive and rebounding performance I've ever seen from a Pike team, including a noticeable lack of hustle at times. Pike has some work to do. Here are a few random comments/observations from the game.

• Cliff could've eaten this team alive, but our guards didn't do a good job of getting him the ball in position. He missed a couple, but he also had some very nice shots from inside 10 feet including a couple of nice baby hooks (which are unstoppable given his size). 12/7/4 is decent - he's not the reason we lost.
• In fact, I'd say our guards didn't do that much well. Simpson played poorly with no hoops til the last bucket, Fernandes did ok with 10/3, but was 3-10 and didn't play great defense, Davis was 2-10, but I did like his intensity as he had 7 boards, and Williams had 7 points, but often played ole defense. While these guys are mostly faster than out guards last year, they're generally smaller and didn't play great half court defense.
• Hyatt looked like the same old Hyatt, missing layups and getting beat off the dribble. He needs to score for us to be better and 0-5 isn't going to cut it.
• Gaving simply isn't ready yet, looking completely lost on defense at times, but he also showed off his shot as his two buckets were very nice. He'll get better, I'm sure.
• Woolfolk and Oskar probably had the best games for the squad, as Woolfolk had 10/4 with 2 steals and Oskar had 8/2 with 3 steals.
• I did like that we made several runs, making things close, but every time we did so, we seemed to have terrible defensive mental lapses, giving up easy layups or putbacks. It also hurts to only go 4-14 from deep, while giving up 9-20 - all else being equal (which it's not), that was the difference in the game.
• No issues with Cure Arena, itself (had good seats), although I heard parking was a mess after about 6 pm (we got there by 5 pm); Trenton Social seems like a decent place, but had no staff, so we couldn't get drinks in 10 minutes and left and ate at Taco Bell, since the arena didn't open until 5:50 pm. The pork roll sandwich in the arena was quite good.
• Good turnout of RU fans: was 90+% RU there, which is surprising given how good PU was last year.

Good & accurate post on BB.

 

[RUChoppin]

Very strange observation about Mag being important to the defense, when Princeton scored all of 68 points. What is the reasonable expectation, to hold teams to scoring in the high 50s to 60 PTS??

Princeton slowed the game down and wanted it to be a low scoring affair. They were efficient scoring the ball in fewer possessions. They shot 45% from deep, most of which were uncontested.

We also missed Mag on the defensive glass, which allowed them to get possessions.

 

[RU848789]

Very strange observation about Mag being important to the defense, when Princeton scored all of 68 points. What is the reasonable expectation, to hold teams to scoring in the high 50s to 60 PTS??

I don't know how many times I can post the obvious item and the staff is building a program that can sustain and play against opponents like Princeton and Lafayette, but also has to have the length and athletic abilities to defend, rebound and actually score off the dribble from the SF and PF positions.

Mag is a versatile defensive player, but Woolfolk played his position extremely well on both ends of the floor last night. Mawot Mag playing isn't going to auto-correct Aundre Hyatt missing 3 to 4 foot shots, or Austin Williams missing layups.....it's also not going to force the referees to call obvious fouls on Princeton, when Noah Fernandes is mugged 2 to 3 times and scoring through contact in the paint.

Mag also has zero impact on Davis playing out of control on offense OR helping the coaching staff understand that Simpson needs to play on the ball to start the offense.

The recruiting of 1 dimensional players like Mag, like Hyatt, like Chol or Palmquist, who cannot create offense off the dribble, cannot consistently knock down makeable shots AND play plus defense, is the issue.

The 2024 wings or PFs, like Bryce Dortch, like Dylan Grant are multi-talented 6'7 to 6'8 players who can create their own offense off the dribble, can knock down perimeter shots at times and more importantly, can switch on defense and rebound.....then they have the abilities to initiate the offense by advancing the basketball. Mag, Hyatt, Palmquist nor Chol, has the skill set to become a reasonable shooter or go to offensive player AND play plus level defense.

The only path towards improvement this year AND beyond, is to develop Woolfolk at the 4 AND allow him to play 8 to 10 minutes per game at the 5. He is fast, athletic, can defend/rebound and can score in the post. He's the answer to whatever limitations or expectations fans want to place on Mag.

We have to be fair and reasonable on expectations for Mag, trying to get his legs under him AND performing at a high level with mostly new teammates for extended minutes.

Ideally he eventually gets to 10 to 12 minutes and takes about 10 games or so to get adjusted, then hopefully he can play up to 16 or so minutes a game and compliment Woolfolk, who is hopefully a mirror image of that type of player. Both should be able to defend, rebound and help Cliff on the glass.

Once RU gets legitimate, 2 way forwards like Ace Bailey, Dortch, and Dylan Grant into the program and we hopefully develop Woolfolk to fit that model, is when RU goes from 17 to 19 wins, to 22 to 24 wins overnight. Will that happen fast enough this year to make the NCAAS in 2023-24?? It's not going to be based on Mag's return to form.....it's going to be based on cleaning up the order and lineup in the backcourt. You're team is only going to be as good as how your guard play develops on offense and defense.

Just because the guard play was bad, as I discussed, doesn't mean Mag wouldn't have helped last night, given how poorly Hyatt played on both ends and Mag was really coming on offensively last year before he got hurt. I also think he can play and contribute a lot more than 16 minutes a game at the 3 and 4, assuming he's healthy and back into playing shape. He can also guard almost any player on the floor, including guards, regardless of where he is playing on offense.

IMO, having him back healthy is a lot more important to this team's improvement than developing Woolfolk and I'm not saying that's not important, too, but it's a bit over-the-top to say Woolfolk's play is the "only" path to improvement this year. The rest of your post about the future, while interesting, is irrelevant to this year's team and even next year's team - at least until all of these guys are signed. Lastly, Princeton played at a pretty slow pace, so 68 points isn't the issue - it's that if we had played better defense, it would've been at least 5-10 points less.

 

[RUBOB72]

Cliff had many opportunities but this is not a lineup that can win in conference lacking solid guard play. I expect pike will make several changes over the next 5-6 games.

 

[zebnatto]

Unless he has 4” plus on defender and we can lob over, there is no team Cliff can eat alive.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Princeton slowed the game down and wanted it to be a low scoring affair. They were efficient scoring the ball in fewer possessions. They shot 45% from deep, most of which were uncontested.

We also missed Mag on the defensive glass, which allowed them to get possessions.

This. Although I do question if those thinking Mag will be the savior are still thinking he’s a plug in play replacement for Caleb. He’s not. Caleb would’ve shut down the 6-7 kid and done enough on help to contain Kim. Mag’s halfcourt D is good, but his press D is what’s special about his game. The only thing in this game was Princeton was rock solid bringing up the ball. Would Mag have turned them over? Who knows? If they got the ball to the halfcourt, I’m not sure Mag would’ve necessarily been a major difference maker though on his own. We had too many holes.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Again we saw Oskar Palmquist in a huge spot be on the floor. What does it have to take before we have some acknowledgement that Mawot Mag is extremely important?

The difference of Mag on the floor on defense relative to Oskar is huge. The coaching staff feels Oskar is an improvement defensively over Hyatt. That's like having 3 girls picked before you in the schoolyard kickball game. You should walk home alone.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

This. Although I do question if those thinking Mag will be the savior are still thinking he’s a plug in play replacement for Caleb. He’s not. Caleb would’ve shut down the 6-7 kid and done enough on help to contain Kim. Mag’s halfcourt D is good, but his press D is what’s special about his game. The only thing in this game was Princeton was rock solid bringing up the ball. Would Mag have turned them over? Who knows? If they got the ball to the halfcourt, I’m not sure Mag would’ve necessarily been a major difference maker though on his own. We had too many holes.

I think Mag over took Caleb against most players defensively as our best. There was a drop off on defense from Caleb last year. Mag was REAL REAL good last year.

 

[Shelby65]

No, Mag would be a nice piece but the MVP by definition is the best player.

On both ends, that’s Cliff. He has his deficiencies but we rely on him the most.

Mag might prove to be #2, but #1 is undeniable.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I think Mag over took Caleb against most players defensively as our best. There was a drop off on defense from Caleb last year. Mag was REAL REAL good last year.

That’s not exactly true. He shined his eliteness when we ran the press. Caleb was on the court with him at all times in the halfcourt sets. Your overvaluing his halfcourt D. I’m not saying he’s not good, but he’s not making up for multiple player shortcomings on his own the way Caleb could. Think of the Temple game… we forced 20 turnovers but they still dropped 72 points on us because the holes were still too big in the halfcourt sets.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

My memory could be wrong here but I stand by my opinion that last year against most players Mag was the better on ball defender.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

My memory could be wrong here but I stand by my opinion that last year against most players Mag was the better on ball defender.

It’s not a debate worth having. They are both excellent on ball defenders. If you want to give a slight edge to Mag, go for it. That’s not really that relevant to the point I’m making.

Caleb was one of the best halfcourt, help defenders I’ve ever watched regularly at the college level. He was so valuable on teams with weak defensive links for this reason because he could bail other guys out and he was able to do it regardless of the halfcourt schemes Pike ran. Mag does a lot of things really well on D. But this was never his role because we had Caleb to do it. I’m not expecting him to be a plug and play replacement in this facet the way some of you are. It’s not that easy to replicate. That’s not taking anything away from Mag. His D in the press was way more elite than Caleb’s press D. Just different strengths. I expect the press will be better when Mag returns and so will the halfcourt D because he’ll do a great job covering his own assignment. I’m just not convinced that he’s going to make up for other guys shortcomings on D the way Caleb picked up the pieces at times.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Agree with all of that.

Paul NOT a good on ball defender
Cam NOT a good on ball defender

Somehow with that we were elite defensively

 

[bitnez]

Love Oskar but we can’t have him playing 20+ minutes. I also agree with the comment I read somewhere that Gavin needs to learn on the floor. He’s too important to what we’re doing even if it means suffering on the defensive end early in the season.

 

[Shelby65]

Love Oskar but we can’t have him playing 20+ minutes. I also agree with the comment I read somewhere that Gavin needs to learn on the floor. He’s too important to what we’re doing even if it means suffering on the defensive end early in the season.

Partly true. Learn on the floor only to the point that winning isn’t compromised.

 

[RU848789]

Partly true. Learn on the floor only to the point that winning isn’t compromised.

Agreed, which is why I was ok with him sitting and watching against Princeton - and why I hated opening up with that game instead of at least 2-3 easy games (I like playing PU, but not as an opener). He needs to play a lot the next 2 games in particular and hopefully he then won't be a weak link vs. GT and can play a lot in that one and then the next 2 before Illinois and be much more ready for that one.

 

[MiloTalon13]

Partly true. Learn on the floor only to the point that winning isn’t compromised.

We lost

 

[richthedentist]

My memory could be wrong here but I stand by my opinion that last year against most players Mag was the better on ball defender.

He was DEFINITELY our second best defender
But also second best scorer and rebounder!!

 

[Shelby65]

We lost

Yes, which is why Pike couldn’t give him extended minutes. I don’t think you understood my point.

 

[RU848789]

It’s not a debate worth having. They are both excellent on ball defenders. If you want to give a slight edge to Mag, go for it. That’s not really that relevant to the point I’m making.

Caleb was one of the best halfcourt, help defenders I’ve ever watched regularly at the college level. He was so valuable on teams with weak defensive links for this reason because he could bail other guys out and he was able to do it regardless of the halfcourt schemes Pike ran. Mag does a lot of things really well on D. But this was never his role because we had Caleb to do it. I’m not expecting him to be a plug and play replacement in this facet the way some of you are. It’s not that easy to replicate. That’s not taking anything away from Mag. His D in the press was way more elite than Caleb’s press D. Just different strengths. I expect the press will be better when Mag returns and so will the halfcourt D because he’ll do a great job covering his own assignment. I’m just not convinced that he’s going to make up for other guys shortcomings on D the way Caleb picked up the pieces at times.

Great post. Caleb was a great "glue" defender which helped everyone, while I think Mag is as good as Caleb on the ball and a little better in press defense. No doubt in my mind that with Mag on the floor for 25-30 min we're a much better team defensively vs. last night (once he's healthy/in game shape) and probably offensively too.

Question, though, is going to eventually be can we get enough minutes for Mag/Gavin/Hyatt at the 2 spot, so we can play a bit bigger and have enough minutes for all of them at the 2/3 (and even 4), assuming Oskar plays a lot less, which has to happen if we're going to get back to the tourney. It's going to take some time to get these rotations in place.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Agree with all of that.

Paul NOT a good on ball defender
Cam NOT a good on ball defender

Somehow with that we were elite defensively

How do you determine a team is elite defensively?? Based on some random kenpom or Bart website??

There wasn't any chance that you could watch last years roster and determine RU was elite defensively. Teams scored on a consistent basis, once teams got through a half or had a 2nd matchup against RU. Don't mistake PPG allowed as being elite defensively.

The roster with Jacob Young, Geo, Myles Johnson and RHJ played significantly better defense against better talent than anything presented last year in the B1G.

There were many MANY times last year where Spencer and Mulcahy would get cooked on the perimeter and Paul would be giving Cliff a look as if "help me"....at some point, pull your head out of the stats and watch the actual games.

RU didn't succeed last year because the players at guard, didn't score consistently enough or had the ability to generate their own shots OR get to the FT line to stop scoring runs. That was February until Simpson was pushed into the starting lineup to generate offense, 1 on 1 or to score with a screen from the forwards.

 

[RUChoppin]

Agree with all of that.

Paul NOT a good on ball defender
Cam NOT a good on ball defender

Somehow with that we were elite defensively

Paul and Cam were not great 1v1, but they both were good at help defense, playing passing lanes, and having length. They were 3rd and 4th in the conference in steals per game, with Caleb 1st.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

How do you determine a team is elite defensively?? Based on some random kenpom or Bart website??

There wasn't any chance that you could watch last years roster and determine RU was elite defensively. Teams scored on a consistent basis, once teams got through a half or had a 2nd matchup against RU. Don't mistake PPG allowed as being elite defensively.

The roster with Jacob Young, Geo, Myles Johnson and RHJ played significantly better defense against better talent than anything presented last year in the B1G.

There were many MANY times last year where Spencer and Mulcahy would get cooked on the perimeter and Paul would be giving Cliff a look as if "help me"....at some point, pull your head out of the stats and watch the actual games.

RU didn't succeed last year because the players at guard, didn't score consistently enough or had the ability to generate their own shots OR get to the FT line to stop scoring runs. That was February until Simpson was pushed into the starting lineup to generate offense, 1 on 1 or to score with a screen from the forwards.

It is extremely simple. You take the amount of points allowed and divide it by the amount of possessions. You make an adjustment for the offensive level of opponent. pretty simple.

The defense played against Maryland in the 1st half last January was the best defense I think i have ever seen played. It was a level beyond elite. I couldn't believe what i was watching.

Was it sustainable? No. Not even in the 2nd half of that game let alone the rest of the season.

It is a viable way for teams to succeed, especially in the game that is changing so fast.

EDIT: Chicago Bulls at times were pretty good on D. I remember a few playoff games beginning the 2nd half that were sick.

 

[FIJI'83]

We lost because Princeton outshot us. Specifically, they scored 5 more 3 point shots than us (9/20 vs. 4/14). Princeton made 26 total FGs (26/50) and we made 25 total FGs (25/542). Each side scored 7 points on FTs. According to the ESPN game box score Princeton outrebounded us 39 vs. 35. They had 3 more turnovers than we did. In sum, our long term Achilles of being a poor shooting team - especially beyond the arc - came back to bite us Monday night. That's why we lost.

 

[Shelby65]

How do you determine a team is elite defensively?? Based on some random kenpom or Bart website??

There wasn't any chance that you could watch last years roster and determine RU was elite defensively. Teams scored on a consistent basis, once teams got through a half or had a 2nd matchup against RU. Don't mistake PPG allowed as being elite defensively.

The roster with Jacob Young, Geo, Myles Johnson and RHJ played significantly better defense against better talent than anything presented last year in the B1G.

There were many MANY times last year where Spencer and Mulcahy would get cooked on the perimeter and Paul would be giving Cliff a look as if "help me"....at some point, pull your head out of the stats and watch the actual games.

RU didn't succeed last year because the players at guard, didn't score consistently enough or had the ability to generate their own shots OR get to the FT line to stop scoring runs. That was February until Simpson was pushed into the starting lineup to generate offense, 1 on 1 or to score with a screen from the forwards.

sort of. PPG is impacted by our own pace on O. Is there a points-per-possession (or per time of possession) metric ? That would provide a better measure of defense

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

2019-20 was 8th in defensive efficiency
2022-23 was also 8th in deficiency

We were 2nd when Mag went down.

Last year pre Mag was easily the best team we had.

https://barttorvik.com/trank.php?sort=AdjDE&begin=20221101&end=20230204&conlimit=All&year=2023&top=0&venue=All&type=All&mingames=0&quad=5&rpi=#

 

[RU848789]

2019-20 was 8th in defensive efficiency
2022-23 was also 8th in deficiency

We were 2nd when Mag went down.

Last year pre Mag was easily the best team we had.

https://barttorvik.com/trank.php?sort=AdjDE&begin=20221101&end=20230204&conlimit=All&year=2023&top=0&venue=All&type=All&mingames=0&quad=5&rpi=#

This. We were easily a Sweet 16 team or maybe better before we lost Mag, with some of the best defense we've seen here. If only we had more depth last year.

 

[RUDiddy777]

I think we’re neglecting Mags offense, which was improving rapidly until the injury. He was approaching a consistent, efficient 10 ppg.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

It is extremely simple. You take the amount of points allowed and divide it by the amount of possessions. You make an adjustment for the offensive level of opponent. pretty simple.

The defense played against Maryland in the 1st half last January was the best defense I think i have ever seen played. It was a level beyond elite. I couldn't believe what i was watching.

Was it sustainable? No. Not even in the 2nd half of that game let alone the rest of the season.

It is a viable way for teams to succeed, especially in the game that is changing so fast.

That is one game (outlier)

What happened the next home game vs Iowa?? (Another outlier, ??)

What about an average Nebraska team cooking RU for 80+ at the RAC....or MSU 2nd half at MSG.

The point is for every strong batch of defensive games I can find ones that wete't great, with all the same players.

Then we have people saying Mag was a better defender than Caleb, which is absurd on every level....Caleb should have been a 2X B1G defensive player of the year.

Caleb has a knee scope/procedure before last season started, missed most of camp, started the season with a knee brace......then played through a bad back on top of things.

But if I dare say that fans shouldn't place all of their eggs in "Mag is a great defender and solves everything", when he's coming off a much more significant injury than Caleb....both are extremely determined, razor tough, but we need to seriously pump the brakes on Mag.

He didn't play Monday and I'm sure will warrant a standing ovation when he hits the floor at the RAC....he deserves and warrants that type of appreciation and applause when he enters the game. At the same time, it's just logical to think that it will take time to round into shape and get up to speed. Him entering the lineup isn't going to magically bring him back to the level of play he was at, right before the injury....he was on the uptick.

I get fans want to believe the lazy (false) take that Mag caused the downturn after his injury. The eye test says otherwise.

 

[RUBOB72]

We are playing the exact way I thought we would going up against Princeton. Already people are for some odd reason doubting Steve Pikiell and the team. If we get Mag back 95% and allow Gavin and Wolf to grow a bit we will be ok. Let Simpson and J Mike control the show. We always start out winning and that was because we played too many cupcakes. Now we play a decent, well coached club and the board goes nuts. Relax it’s a long way to go until we are eliminated from contention.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

That is one game (outlier)

What happened the next home game vs Iowa?? (Another outlier, ??) Iowa game was our worst adjusted defensive efficiency game with mag. 76 points in 68 possessions vs. Iowa is right around average, and it was our worst game

What about an average Nebraska team cooking RU for 80+ at the RAC....or MSU 2nd half at MSG. After Mag went down

The point is for every strong batch of defensive games I can find ones that wete't great, with all the same players.

Then we have people saying Mag was a better defender than Caleb, which is absurd on every level....Caleb should have been a 2X B1G defensive player of the year.

Caleb has a knee scope/procedure before last season started, missed most of camp, started the season with a knee brace......then played through a bad back on top of things. I am not saying Mag is a better defender. He had a better year as on ball defender. Injury probably was a factor as Caleb wasn't as good last year

But if I dare say that fans shouldn't place all of their eggs in "Mag is a great defender and solves everything", when he's coming off a much more significant injury than Caleb....both are extremely determined, razor tough, but we need to seriously pump the brakes on Mag. I am VERY concerned about Mag this year. I agree here. In Pike's press conference I found his statement about Mag very odd. Mag is cleared to play and Mag has decided not to play. It is up to Mag.

He didn't play Monday and I'm sure will warrant a standing ovation when he hits the floor at the RAC....he deserves and warrants that type of appreciation and applause when he enters the game. At the same time, it's just logical to think that it will take time to round into shape and get up to speed. Him entering the lineup isn't going to magically bring him back to the level of play he was at, right before the injury....he was on the uptick.

I get fans want to believe the lazy (false) take that Mag caused the downturn after his injury. The eye test says otherwise. It is not lazy when the before and after stats are so different. Our collapse was based on multiple factors. Primarily the loss of Mag. All season I was harping on the fact that we were playing starters too many minutes and it probably wasn't sustainable the energy we were playing with. Add in some injuries. Mag was 1A, but 1B was the lack of depth. Going from Mag to Hyatt is a HUGE dropoff.

 

[fluoxetine]

Very strange observation about Mag being important to the defense, when Princeton scored all of 68 points. What is the reasonable expectation, to hold teams to scoring in the high 50s to 60 PTS??

In a 62 possession game against Princeton, yes under 60 points is a reasonable expectation.

 

[RU848789]

That is one game (outlier)

What happened the next home game vs Iowa?? (Another outlier, ??)

What about an average Nebraska team cooking RU for 80+ at the RAC....or MSU 2nd half at MSG.

The point is for every strong batch of defensive games I can find ones that wete't great, with all the same players.

Then we have people saying Mag was a better defender than Caleb, which is absurd on every level....Caleb should have been a 2X B1G defensive player of the year.

Caleb has a knee scope/procedure before last season started, missed most of camp, started the season with a knee brace......then played through a bad back on top of things.

But if I dare say that fans shouldn't place all of their eggs in "Mag is a great defender and solves everything", when he's coming off a much more significant injury than Caleb....both are extremely determined, razor tough, but we need to seriously pump the brakes on Mag.

He didn't play Monday and I'm sure will warrant a standing ovation when he hits the floor at the RAC....he deserves and warrants that type of appreciation and applause when he enters the game. At the same time, it's just logical to think that it will take time to round into shape and get up to speed. Him entering the lineup isn't going to magically bring him back to the level of play he was at, right before the injury....he was on the uptick.

I get fans want to believe the lazy (false) take that Mag caused the downturn after his injury. The eye test says otherwise.

I think it's fair to say that both Caleb and Mag were both great defenders and Mag was really coming on offensively before he got hurt and it's also clear that Mag will take some time to get back to 100%, as is normal for a torn ACL. Him being back 100% also doesn't "solve everything" as there are other issues with the team and players that need to be addressed. However, IMO, there is nothing that will improve this team more vs. what we showed on Monday than the return of Mag.

However, you're simply wrong on RU before and after Mag's injury. The eye test, the defensive stats that GRFIG quoted, and the most important thing - our record - show that we were irrefutably worse after Mag was injured. From 16-7/8-4 and knocking on the top 15 (we were #15 in Kenpom after the MSU game) to 19-14/10-10, meaning we went 3-7 over those last 10 games including the worst loss of the year at MN, ought to be enough to convince anyone we missed Mag terribly.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Going from Mag to Hyatt was a major drop off. But going from having Caleb to not having Caleb is also looking like it might be a very big issue for a while until our young guys figure out how to play servicable D. This could be the case with or without Mag.

Never mind the injury. The sample size isn’t large, but following the same logic, our D was not elite when it was just Mag and not Caleb early last year. We gave up 68 points to UMass Lowell and 72 points to Temple (the only 2 teams we played with pulses).