Montez Mathis v Jonathan Laurent

[RUsojo]

Aside from the extra inch (or two) Laurent has on Mathez I am seeing a lot of similarities in their game. Now Montez obviosuly has more guard-like attributes than Laurent but mentality wise and how they like to get their buckets I can’t help but draw the comparison - and they will both ultimately be guarding the third biggest guy on the floor before switches. I think you could actually throw Dane Miller into this conversation too but obviously he had the height and size that allowed him to excel in a different manner.

For me Mathis will need to play in three guard lineups going forward. I think 3 guard lineups are where Pike would like to end up so I see next year as the year Montez has an opportunity to contribute offensively in an efficient way with the supporting cast of Geo Kiss Young Mulcahy.

I could see him him eventually developing into a player who can give us what Laurent is giving Umass this year (albeit this far against a pretty bad schedule):

Laurent Freshman Year:
24MPG 46%FG 8PTS 5REB 1AST 73%FT 24%3P

Laurent This Year:
27MPG 58%FG 11PTS 5REB 2AST 83%FT 48%3P

Mathis This Year:
16MPG 29%FG 5PTS 2REB 1AST 1STL 57%FT 19%3P

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

One stat you don't have is how many touches each get on the defensive end. Mathis has the potential (he isn't quite there yet) to be a major factor on the defensive end. I am not a guy who likes to see players show emotion all the time, but after he gave up a 3 to Powell you can see how upset he was at himself. He has the desire and the tools.

Now he needs to be a better shooter and find a role in the offense. A 2 guard that can shoot from the perimeter can almost not happen in D1 basketball any more.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

There is NO comparasion ...and I liked Laurent

Mathis gets all the damn way to the rim...and there are not many guys who can do that ... he needs to get stronger on his last step to go with authority to finish...and that will come

The kid is going to be at least a two year starter scoring 11-13 points a game ...and may be three ...

A major piece ...

 

[RUChoppin]

Laurent played much of his freshman year at the 4, though, because we were decimated with injuries. He didn't have much outside game, and wasn't great with dribble penetration. He got most of his points scrapping around the basket and playing in the paint, as part of EJ's system that got a lot of possessions because our defense was so bad. When he was moved out to the wing as a sophomore under Pike, he struggled.

I'd say Mathis is more akin to Dane Miller - slasher from the perimeter, always looking to penetrate to the hoop, tough defender. Dane had more success out of the gate, though.

 

[ScarletDave]

I really liked Laurent, probably my second favorite when he was here. That said Montez has crazy effort and he will be 10x the player when all is said and done. Watch out when we play Seton Hall next year, it’s personal for him now after fouling out the way he did. I love his energy. He has to adjust to the college game but he will be a beast. Hope he becomes our “drive to the basket when we need a basket” guy

 

[RUsojo]

There is NO comparasion ...and I liked Laurent

Mathis gets all the damn way to the rim...and there are not many guys who can do that ... he needs to get stronger on his last step to go with authority to finish...and that will come

The kid is going to be at least a two year starter scoring 11-13 points a game ...and may be three ...

A major piece ...

Yeah I guess I definitely forced the comparison by setting aside the fact that Laurent obviously doesn’t have the guard-like traits Mathis has.

But defensively on our team they both will have to start out on the third biggest guy and actually with the way the game is played now you can argue Laurent could guard more positions but it really is all dependent on the opponent but the point is they have that position flexibility.

Offensive neither can shoot although it looks like Laurent has a naturally better stroke and grew into it which is what I hope Mathis can do. The both are cutters and guys who look to get to the rim. Mathis obviously better off the dribble but both were drive first attackers.

There are definitely similarities.

 

[Degaz-RU]

I'd say Mathis is more akin to Dane Miller - slasher from the perimeter, always looking to penetrate to the hoop, tough defender. Dane had more success out of the gate, though.

I agree wholeheartedly with the Dane Miller comparison. Miller and Mathis are both highly-athletic slashers who can get to the rim, and who can defend. Miller probably has an inch or so on Mathis, but other than that, I think they are extremely similar players.

Hopefully Mathis can develop his outside shooting more than Miller did, though...

 

[Rutgers25]

I agree wholeheartedly with the Dane Miller comparison. Miller and Mathis are both highly-athletic slashers who can get to the rim, and who can defend. Miller probably has an inch or so on Mathis, but other than that, I think they are extremely similar players.

Hopefully Mathis can develop his outside shooting more than Miller did, though...

I’d compare Mathis more to a poor mans Dahntay Jones

 

[rubaseball78]

Yeah I guess I definitely forced the comparison by setting aside the fact that Laurent obviously doesn’t have the guard-like traits Mathis has.

But defensively on our team they both will have to start out on the third biggest guy and actually with the way the game is played now you can argue Laurent could guard more positions but it real is all dependent on the opponent but the point is they have that position flexibility.

Offensive neither can shoot although it looks like Laurent has a naturally better stroke and grew into it which is what I hope Mathis can do. The both are cutters and guys who look to get to the rim. Mathis obviously better off the dribble but both were drive first attackers.

There are definitely similarities.

True, they both wear shorts.

 

[RUsojo]

True, they both wear shorts.

Haha I see what you did there. I did say “mentality wise and how they like to get their buckets” which is definitely a similarity.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

There's nothing similar about the players and stats mean less than zero when you played in Eddie Jordan's system of take whatever shot you liked and never guarded or rebounded.

Laurent was a nice kid that worked hard and has done well so far this year off the bench at UMass.

The term empty calories is what stats looked like under Jordan....the shooting percentages are what they are.

What should be done is a projection of what would or could happen if players didn't have foul trouble and could play 28 to 30 minutes a game compared to others capturing those minutes.....OR what are the analytics telling coaches and researchers that break down good shots, OK shots and bad shots....

Or how many shots were up against the shot clock vs what was "early offense" or the 1st or 2nd shot available to a player in half court or transition.

I'm pretty confident that if Mathis can stay on the court for 26 to 28 minutes and knows he will get touches within the flow of the game, he accelerates his development quickly on both ends....learns on how to play through mistakes, defend without fouling, gets more attacks to the basket.

Same thing for Harper Jr.....

 

[RUsojo]

There's nothing similar about the players and stats mean less than zero when you played in Eddie Jordan's system of take whatever shot you liked and never guarded or rebounded.

Laurent was a nice kid that worked hard and has done well so far this year off the bench at UMass.

The term empty calories is what stats looked like under Jordan....the shooting percentages are what they are.

What should be done is a projection of what would or could happen if players didn't have foul trouble and could play 28 to 30 minutes a game compared to others capturing those minutes.....OR what are the analytics telling coaches and researchers that break down good shots, OK shots and bad shots....

Or how many shots were up against the shot clock vs what was "early offense" or the 1st or 2nd shot available to a player in half court or transition.

I'm pretty confident that if Mathis can stay on the court for 26 to 28 minutes and knows he will get touches within the flow of the game, he accelerates his development quickly on both ends....learns on how to play through mistakes, defend without fouling, gets more attacks to the basket.

Same thing for Harper Jr.....

First, I said they have a similar mentality and are similar in the way they like to get their buckets. Also similar in their defensive assignments and position flexibility (stating that flexibility may span different positions) I put the stats for reference only. Yes, you can make stats say whatever you want. No stats are not useless. Also, I don’t think you have watched UMass this year as minimal research would show Laurent has started 9 of 10 games and is not coming off the bench.

Here is a consistent comparison of stats. I am not adding commentary to the stats which I did not do the first time.

On a per 40 minute basis
Laurent (FR) 13.3 8.4 1.4 1 .46/.24/.73
Mathis (FR) 12.8 4.3 1.4 2.2 .29/.18/.57
Laurent (UM) 17.1 8.0 2.7 .6 .58/.48/.83

 

[AreYouNUTS]

I’d compare Mathis more to a poor mans Dahntay Jones

Dahntay was a beast coming out of high school. Him and our head coach’s son were lifting in the gym, as little kids, while we were practicing. He had that last-step burst that not everyone has at a very young age and Mathis is a year away from having that IMHO.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Mathis is pretty darn close to the given abilities of Jones. We haven't seen anything remotely close in a long time.

How that will translate to Rutgers wins in an era where 3 point shooting is so important is the question i have....along with him obviously developing in to a better basketball player.

 

[RUChoppin]

First, I said they have a similar mentality and are similar in the way they like to get their buckets. Also similar in their defensive assignments and position flexibility (stating that flexibility may span different positions) I put the stats for reference only. Yes, you can make stats say whatever you want. No stats are not useless. Also, I don’t think you have watched UMass this year as minimal research would show Laurent has started 9 of 10 games and is not coming off the bench.

Here is a consistent comparison of stats. I am not adding commentary to the stats which I did not do the first time.

On a per 40 minute basis
Laurent (FR) 13.3 8.4 1.4 1 .46/.24/.73
Mathis (FR) 12.8 4.3 1.4 2.2 .29/.18/.57
Laurent (UM) 17.1 8.0 2.7 .6 .58/.48/.83

How he likes to get his buckets? As a freshman, Laurent got most of his points in the low post (as he was often the second tallest player on the floor) and Mathis gets most of his off dribble penetration from outside the arc. I just don't see the comparison.

 

[RUsojo]

How he likes to get his buckets? As a freshman, Laurent got most of his points in the low post (as he was often the second tallest player on the floor) and Mathis gets most of his off dribble penetration from outside the arc. I just don't see the comparison.

Laurent’s best games (and the teams best games) were when the majority of Laurent’s minutes came when Eugene was on the court. We did post up Laurent some as you are suggetsing. He got some put backs here and there, true, but many were his own when missed after taking the ball to the rim. We were down to 7 scholarship players at one point so he was used as needed. Made a lot of money giving the points during that 4 game stretch BTW



When he gets the ball on the wing him and Mathis are of the same mind. Also O’Korens ability as a talent evelauator.......

 

[RUChoppin]

Laurent’s best games (and the teams best games) were when the majority of Laurent’s minutes came when Eugene was on the court. We did post up Laurent some as you are suggetsing. He got some put backs here and there, true, but many were his own when missed after taking the ball to the rim. We were down to 7 scholarship players at one point so he was used as needed. Made a lot of money giving the points during that 4 game stretch BTW

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When he gets the ball on the wing him and Mathis are of the same mind. Also O’Korens ability as a talent evelauator.......

Eugene wasn't here when Laurent was a freshman, which was when he had his best performances (10 double-digit scoring performances with three triple-doubles). In his back-to-back double double games, he started at the 4 with an injured Greg Lewis at the 5 (and only DJ Foreman to back up both in the post).

Once Laurent got moved to the wing in a more structured offense under Pike (Omoruyi's freshman year), he only hit double digits once (in the 2nd game of the year vs. Drexel), and his minutes and productivity fell off a cliff.

 

[RUsojo]

Eugene wasn't here when Laurent was a freshman, which was when he had his best performances (10 double-digit scoring performances with three triple-doubles). In his back-to-back double double games, he started at the 4 with an injured Greg Lewis at the 5 (and only DJ Foreman to back up both in the post).

Once Laurent got moved to the wing in a more structured offense under Pike (Omoruyi's freshman year), he only hit double digits once (in the 2nd game of the year vs. Drexel), and his minutes and productivity fell off a cliff.

Good point. Ultimately he chose EO and Issa over Laurent. Laurent actually had a higher fg% ft% and averaged more rebounds in 5 minutes less than Issa and 1 more minute than EO. But considering who left the program the next year maybe he made that call a year before he had to - IIRC we had Sa Bullock Mensah Dadika and Nathan (?) on scholarship last year. One has to wonder if we would’ve been better served with Laurent still on the team last year and this year as a JR and SR than the end of the bench guys mentioned or the open ships we’ve had recently. He’s certainly developed offensively in his time since he left Pike.

Not saying it’s a huge mistake or anything just thinking out loud here.

 

[RUChoppin]

Good point. Ultimately he chose EO and Issa over Laurent. Laurent actually had a higher fg% ft% and averaged more rebounds in 5 minutes less than Issa and 1 more minute than EO. But considering who left the program the next year maybe he made that call a year before he had to - IIRC we had Sa Bullock Mensah Dadika and Nathan (?) on scholarship last year. One has to wonder if we would’ve been better served with Laurent still on the team last year and this year as a JR and SR than the end of the bench guys mentioned or the open ships we’ve had recently. He’s certainly developed offensively in his time since he left Pike.

Not saying it’s a huge mistake or anything just thinking out loud here.

Laurent's time in his sophomore year largely got eaten up by newcomers, not by Omoruyi or Issa. Freeman was back off injury, Gettys came in as a grad transfer, Sa came in as a Juco, and Doorson was back from inury - and those four combined for 71 of the 80 possible minutes in the low post. If Laurent was going to see time, it was on the wing - but he didn't thrive that far from the basket, and had a hard time adjusting from "playground ball" to Pike's structured offense.

On UMass, he also starts at the 4 - which you can do more easily at his size in the A10 than the B1G. Their starting lineup goes 5-10/6-4/6-4/6-6/6-10

 

[whofrewdatmataRU13]

I like how Montez is buying in to being an elite defender. He seems to be taking his defensive matchups personally which is one of the best ways, besides athletic skill, to becoming great on the defensive end.

 

[4theknights]

I can't wait to see Montez the second half of this year. You can see the game slowing down for him. I like Issa but Montez will eventually move Issa to the bench because he is so quick and can get to the basket. Plus Pike feels he will be an elite defender.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

I’d compare Mathis more to a poor mans Dahntay Jones

I made this exact analogy when he signed his LOI

 

[richthedentist]

ONe thing that was not said about Montez is how he crashes the board for someone his size he can really get up and is always in there for the rebounds

 

[knights1212]

I liked Laurent when he was at RU. However I think his numbers were inflated as a freshman because after injuries we often had only 7 or 8 scholarship players dressed for many games. He received many nice passes from Corey very close to the basket. He excelled near the basket. We really had very few people who could score that year. As a soph he was behind a few new guys and only averaged 3.0 ppg. I think Mathis will have a very good career at Rutgers. I hope Jonathan can continue to do well at U Mass.

 

[bac2therac]

Laurent was averaging 5.2 through his first 10 games at RU....just an needed fyi..he also averaged just 3.1 ppg his 2nd year at Rutgers

I do not see the similarities at all actually and think Montez has a way higher ceiling to be a much better player than Laurent.

 

[RUChoppin]

I just think Montez and Laurent are two totally different situations.

I think the Dane Miller comparison is more apt. Miller was a stud athlete when he came in, but was unpolished. He was a slasher who could get to he rim, but was sometimes a bit out of control or tried to do a little too much. He'd get in the paint and get fouled, but then struggle at the line to make defenses pay for fouling him. He seemed to take readily to being an aggressive on-ball defender, and had a nose for the ball. Didn't have much of an outside shot, though. Definitely wore his emotions on his sleeve.

Miller was unfortunately subjected to, let's say, "less than stellar" coaching. After that really promising start in FHJ's last year, he came back as a sophomore to Mike Rice. While he saw some modest improvement as a sophomore, there was a lot of talk later in his career that he didn't take well to Rice's antics and started to "check out". His usage and productivity dropped off as a junior and then again as a senior.

I think Mathis will be on a much better path under Pike. He doesn't have Miller's height/length, though, making him more of a guard than a small forward and seeing lower rebounding numbers than Miller. He also is seeing fewer minutes as a freshman, because there's more competition at his position (Miller's only competition as a freshman at SF was Patrick Jackson).

 

[RUChoppin]

I do see the Dahntay Jones / Montez Mathis comparison a bit. If Montez could master Jones' jump stop and 5 footer in the lane, that'd be a big weapon in his arsenal. Jones also had a couple inches on Mathis, just as Miller did.

 

[bowlgoal]

Montez Mathis is going to be a beast and I see him making a huge jump just like Omuyuri did but even better. Wait until Mulcahy runs the point and guys like Geo, Mathis and Kiss will be able to cut to the hoop and get passes from Paul like we haven’t seen before. We need another shooter for next year who can light it up from 3 pointer range and drive to the hoop. I really wanted that kid who decommited from St. Louis.

 

[RUsojo]

Montez Mathis is going to be a beast and I see him making a huge jump just like Omuyuri did but even better. Wait until Mulcahy runs the point and guys like Geo, Mathis and Kiss will be able to cut to the hoop and get passes from Paul like we haven’t seen before. We need another shooter for next year who can light it up from 3 pointer range and drive to the hoop. I really wanted that kid who decommited from St. Louis.

He’s going to need to develop a shot off the bounce to get to that next level. Can he bring that element to his game?

 

[higgins3]

I see some similarities, but not an overwhelming amount.

Many athletes could have gotten minutes on that EJ squad. Sanders stats were inflated because his usage was probably near 70% and he was on a horrible team.

Well see. I think Pikiell should run three guards. Thiam for whatever reason has not been playing well. I hope it turns it around.