NJ exporting students

[srru86]

Not news to any regular reader here, but an update.
Star Ledger
These 10 states take the most college freshmen from N.J., report says

NJ still needs to open up a 5000 seat "Jersey Shore State" at the old Fort Monmouth.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Looks like UDel and Ped are the leaders with over 800 freshmen each from NJ.

NY is the lead exporter to RU with only 140 freshmen. Don't even look at the other states unless you want to very disheartened.

Over 200 NJ students alone at USCe and 300 at James Madison. Aside from NYU at around 600, most of the big takers seem to be where students are rejected from RU but still.

 

[Scarlet Jerry]

This is also a question of capacity. RU in New Brunswick cannot support any more students, even if it wanted to do so. Yes, we have some new dorms that will open in September, but NJ is a populous state without enough college capacity to enroll everyone who wants to attend. This is a simple fact, but the news reports never mentions this. Theoretically, if we increased out of state enrollment (and I think that we should), that would lead to an even BIGGER brain drain because NJ students would not have as many spots for them.

-Jerry

 

[sct1111]

This is also a question of capacity. RU in New Brunswick cannot support any more students, even if it wanted to do so. Yes, we have some new dorms that will open in September, but NJ is a populous state without enough college capacity to enroll everyone who wants to attend. This is a simple fact, but the news reports never mentions this. Theoretically, if we increased out of state enrollment (and I think that we should), that would lead to an even BIGGER brain drain because NJ students would not have as many spots for them.

-Jerry

Agreed. It's not like Rutgers has poor quality students, they're getting plenty of excellent students from NJ. NJ just doesn't have that many college seats compared to it's population. Also you have NY and Philly close by where there are a bunch of schools.

I think Rutgers should actually lower it's acceptance rate. It's becoming too overcrowded. This would also raise the SAT scores. Rutgers' SATs have risen a lot over the past few years and I think it should be getting even more selective.

 

[rutgersdave]

Agreed. It's not like Rutgers has poor quality students, they're getting plenty of excellent students from NJ. NJ just doesn't have that many college seats compared to it's population. Also you have NY and Philly close by where there are a bunch of schools.

I think Rutgers should actually lower it's acceptance rate. It's becoming too overcrowded. This would also raise the SAT scores. Rutgers' SATs have risen a lot over the past few years and I think it should be getting even more selective.

They should have printed the in state student population for the last 10 years. I know William Paterson, Ramapo, NJIT , Rutgers Newark and Montclair State have significantly increases their student population. I Assume the colleges down South Jersey have expanded as well. Another stupid article not looking at the total picture. If the state doesn't provide enough funding how can they expand the student population even more other than out of state students?

 

[retired711]

Delaware draws a lot from South Jersey. I really don't understand why except South Jerseyans see the rest of the state as very remote.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Delaware draws a lot from South Jersey. I really don't understand why except South Jerseyans see the rest of the state as very remote.

It is interesting, because it kind of flies in the face of the idea that RU is "too close" to home. For much of South Jersey, U Del is closer or equidistant, and with traffic it may take less time to get there.

Could be students not getting into RU. Otherwise I have to say I don't get the attraction.

 

[retired711]

My neighbor sent his two sons to U.Del. I believe they are living on campus. And, from Cherry Hill, there is no time advantage in getting to Delaware as opposed to NB. But he seems proud they are at U.Del.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Doesn't look like we have a shrug emoji but that would be my response lol.

 

[RobertG]

My neighbor sent his two sons to U.Del. I believe they are living on campus. And, from Cherry Hill, there is no time advantage in getting to Delaware as opposed to NB. But he seems proud they are at U.Del.

Is he paying full out of state tuition room and board?

 

[RU-ROCS]

Looks like UDel and Ped are the leaders with over 800 freshmen each from NJ.

NY is the lead exporter to RU with only 140 freshmen. Don't even look at the other states unless you want to very disheartened.

Over 200 NJ students alone at USCe and 300 at James Madison. Aside from NYU at around 600, most of the big takers seem to be where students are rejected from RU but still.

U Del (45%) and PSU (38%) take a MUCH larger percentage of out of state students compared to RU (11%), so there will always be this large "trade gap" disparity. It really doesn't mean much. If my local HS is good example, the kids that go to those two schools are middle of the road good students of which there are too many for RU to admit anyway. It's the top-tier NJ students that RU and others covet and they are not generally going to PSU and Del.

 

[NotInRHouse]

U Del (45%) and PSU (38%) take a MUCH larger percentage of out of state students compared to RU (11%), so there will always be this large "trade gap" disparity. It really doesn't mean much. If my local HS is good example, the kids that go to those two schools are middle of the road good students of which there are too many for RU to admit anyway. It's the top-tier NJ students that RU and others covet and they are not generally going to PSU and Del.

I don't think RU should be that high in terms of OOS, but we should be higher than 11%. We should be much closer to 25%.

Other than Illinois and Texas we are a huge outlier in this regard. We are foresaking money for inexplicable reasons.

Remember that a ton of those students OOS at those schools are from NY and New England. Why aren't they at RU with their OOS tuition filling our coffers?

 

[RU-ROCS]

I don't think RU should be that high in terms of OOS, but we should be higher than 11%. We should be much closer to 25%.

Other than Illinois and Texas we are a huge outlier in this regard. We are foresaking money for inexplicable reasons.

Remember that a ton of those students OOS at those schools are from NY and New England. Why aren't they at RU with their OOS tuition filling our coffers?

I could not agree more! 25% makes great sense fiscally and academically -- which all but ensures that the NJ pols will never allow it. ;)

 

[retired711]

Is he paying full out of state tuition room and board?

don't know, sorry. My neighbor is not the only one in South Jersey doing this, and it's hard to imagine they're all on scholarship.

 

[RobertG]

There are a lot of OOS colleges which discount the tuition to make it on par with RU. My daughter goes to the University of Houston, it cost me less than sending her to any NJ State school would by $10,000 per year.

NJ State schools are pretty pricey coming in right now at $26000+ per year, at least for RU and TCNJ.

 

[retired711]

There are a lot of OOS colleges which discount the tuition to make it on par with RU. My daughter goes to the University of Houston, it cost me less than sending her to any NJ State school would by $10,000 per year.

NJ State schools are pretty pricey coming in right now at $26000+ per year, at least for RU and TCNJ.

Rutgers in-state tuition is roughly $14,000. Total cost of in-state enrollment is about $31G, according to Google. At Houston in-state tuition is roughly $7500; out of state tuition is about $18G. Congratulations to your daughter on getting such a good financial aid package.

 

[RobertG]

She got two scholarships worth around $4000. But, UofH has a policy if an OOS student gets over $1000 in scholarships they give the in state tuition, plus the scholarships. Makes it a nice savings.

 

[retired711]

She got two scholarships worth around $4000. But, UofH has a policy if an OOS student gets over $1000 in scholarships they give the in state tuition, plus the scholarships. Makes it a nice savings.

That's quite a package. I hope she likes the school and the area.

 

[Scarlet Pride]

The number of college students leaving the state to attend college is a statistic that merely tells you there is a shortage of beds in NJ colleges/universities. It tells you there may be an opportunity to keep those students at home with more capacity but whether or not that is any value to the state or the state schools is an entirely different and much more complicated question.

 

[retired711]

That's a good point, but don't we have lots of evidence that a fair percentage of those students are students who Rutgers would want, e.g. the students going to other Big 10 schools? And, even as to non-Rutgers candidates, wouldn't the state prefer that those kids go to the state colleges so that they're more likely to remain in NJ after graduation?

 

[Scarlet Pride]

That's a good point, but don't we have lots of evidence that a fair percentage of those students are students who Rutgers would want, e.g. the students going to other Big 10 schools? And, even as to non-Rutgers candidates, wouldn't the state prefer that those kids go to the state colleges so that they're more likely to remain in NJ after graduation?

Now that is an actual issue to consider. I would be interested to see the rates of those students returning and also the influx of college educated elsewhere that choose to move here. What is the actual impact on workforce, economy, and overall education level of state population. Those are important questions.

 

[retired711]

Now that is an actual issue to consider. I would be interested to see the rates of those students returning and also the influx of college educated elsewhere that choose to move here. What is the actual impact on workforce, economy, and overall education level of state population. Those are important questions.

I wish I had more information on that. I do know that state officials complain about the "brain drain" to other states. But I don't know how much of that is offset by migration to NJ by college graduates.

I think it's also important to consider the Rutgers-specific end: how many students we are losing who would have been Rutgers eligible. Certainly the small OOS population at RU undergraduate suggests that we aren't make up for it by attracting out of state students.

 

[brianoc]

I read that UDel takes 99% of in state students that apply.

 

[srru86]

Other than Illinois and Texas we are a huge outlier in this regard. We are foresaking money for inexplicable reasons.

It's not inexplicable, it directly the result of our friends in Trenton. Some years ago they changed the funding formula to deduct from your appropriation for out of state students. Now that specific penalty has been taken out of the system. But you bet all the College presidents are aware of how they'll look to punish anybody that starts taking in a bunch of out-of staters. Clearly this is a bigger deal for RU than the State Colleges.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

Fort Monmouth would make A LOT of sense--no public four year college in the area. Another location,with over 2,000 acres,that would probably make sense is Stockton University--it only has around 8,000 students.

 

[NotInRHouse]

It's not inexplicable, it directly the result of our friends in Trenton. Some years ago they changed the funding formula to deduct from your appropriation for out of state students. Now that specific penalty has been taken out of the system. But you bet all the College presidents are aware of how they'll look to punish anybody that starts taking in a bunch of out-of staters. Clearly this is a bigger deal for RU than the State Colleges.

Haha I meant the pols' reasons are inexplicable.

 

[retired711]

Haha I meant the pols' reasons are inexplicable.

I don't think the "pols'" positions are inexplicable at all. They want the scarce public college seats in New Jersey to go to New Jerseyans. Nothing weird about that. Note that when Cal-Berkeley began to admit a lot of OOS students, the state legislature threw a fit on the same grounds, and Cal-Berkeley quickly retreated. The schools that can admit lots of OOS students are schools like Delaware and Michigan that don't have enough qualified in-state applicants to create a large enough first year class.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I don't think the "pols'" positions are inexplicable at all. They want the scarce public college seats in New Jersey to go to New Jerseyans. Nothing weird about that. Note that when Cal-Berkeley began to admit a lot of OOS students, the state legislature threw a fit on the same grounds, and Cal-Berkeley quickly retreated. The schools that can admit lots of OOS students are schools like Delaware and Michigan that don't have enough qualified in-state applicants to create a large enough first year class.

The only big state schools I have seen higher than us are Texas and Illinois. There is a big population gap there. We have a lower population to VA or NC, and their percentages are higher, though I believe UNC is capped by law at 18%, which I think we would gladly take.

I did read about California, but there is a big difference. The state now has a huge surplus. They don't need the OOS funds. NJ is in dire fiscal straits.

The other reality is that outside of RU, TCNJ and maybe Rowan or NJIT the NJ state schools do not really have a built base of people that want to attend. I would submit that the kid who doesn't get into the NJ state schools is glad to go to WVU, USCe, James Madison...they will have fun and not to much more money that mom and dad can't pay. The mom in the Shop Rite line would take pride in James Madison over Stockton or Montclair.

I would say if this was a real issue- NJ students locked out NJ schools- we would have the backlash CA did.

 

[retired711]

The only big state schools I have seen higher than us are Texas and Illinois. There is a big population gap there. We have a lower population to VA or NC, and their percentages are higher, though I believe UNC is capped by law at 18%, which I think we would gladly take.

I did read about California, but there is a big difference. The state now has a huge surplus. They don't need the OOS funds. NJ is in dire fiscal straits.

The other reality is that outside of RU, TCNJ and maybe Rowan or NJIT the NJ state schools do not really have a built base of people that want to attend. I would submit that the kid who doesn't get into the NJ state schools is glad to go to WVU, USCe, James Madison...they will have fun and not to much more money that mom and dad can't pay. The mom in the Shop Rite line would take pride in James Madison over Stockton or Montclair.

I would say if this was a real issue- NJ students locked out NJ schools- we would have the backlash CA did.

I think you're misinformed about the University of California's fiscal situation -- the Berkeley campus, I know, is desperately looking for ways to cut. It might be rational for the legislature to agree that there should be more OOS students, but instead the legislature wants to be sure the university is there for Californians.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "built base." As you've suggested in the past, there is an element of "conspicuous consumption" in sending one's child to an out of state school. But that isn't the only reason parents send their kids OOS. The reason is that there is no California-style backlash is that no NJ school has made a serious attempt to increase the percentage of OOS students; in contrast, the University of California definitely did.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I think you're misinformed about the University of California's fiscal situation -- the Berkeley campus, I know, is desperately looking for ways to cut. It might be rational for the legislature to agree that there should be more OOS students, but instead the legislature wants to be sure the university is there for Californians.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "built base." As you've suggested in the past, there is an element of "conspicuous consumption" in sending one's child to an out of state school. But that isn't the only reason parents send their kids OOS. The reason is that there is no California-style backlash is that no NJ school has made a serious attempt to increase the percentage of OOS students; in contrast, the University of California definitely did.

I should clarify- I meant the state of California has a multi billion dollar surplus, not the school. But that certainly helps the UC system.

Let me ask this then, do you think that say if tomorrow RU said we are taking 25% OOS, that there would be a backlash, and what would it look like?

 

[retired711]

NIRH, I think there would be quite a backlash from the legislature, and that it would negatively affect the amount of money RU gets from the state. (The legislature, as you know, does not like RU as, apparently, a matter of principle.) I think you'd see newspapers and other media attacking us. I like the idea of more OOS students at Rutgers, but we have to be careful. Incidentally, the OOS limits apply only to undergrads so far as I know.

 

[Scarlet Pride]

I should clarify- I meant the state of California has a multi billion dollar surplus, not the school. But that certainly helps the UC system.

Let me ask this then, do you think that say if tomorrow RU said we are taking 25% OOS, that there would be a backlash, and what would it look like?

The SL would jump on it and emphasize the fact that X number of seats will be filled with out of state students that previously were NJ students. They would reinforce the fact the NJ already exports a huge number of students. This would cause the usual "tax money" outrage from the largely uninformed public.

Then it becomes a political opportunity for Sweeney and co. to attack Rutgers governance etc.

With that said Rutgers should continue pushing the OOS numbers up over the next five years to about 20%. The numbers are already up to 14% (17% in NB) so you could grow that at just over 1% a year and hit it in five years. We have been trending in the right direction - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/local/declining-in-state-students/

I'd say do it quietly but with purpose and if it becomes a hot button issue go on full PR blitz with the facts.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I agree totally on the SL and Sweeney. But RU seems to be largely unconcerned with both recently.

I also agree it's not like we should be advertising it.

I just think barring god forbid a Sweeney governorship that we might as well try and see what happens, and have the PR blitz ready (for once!).

 

[retired711]

I'm not sure I agree that RU is unconcerned. That's why it's proceeding slowly. And I am less sanguine about the result of our presentation of the facts. The argument that RU should be devoted to serving NJ students may be wrong, but it will appeal to a lot of people on first blush.

 

[Scarlet Pride]

I think Rutgers should be devoted to serving NJ students. The majority of students should come from NJ but that doesn't mean that we can't have 20-30% out of state students. Beyond the financial realities NJ students are well served to have a student body that exposes them to students from beyond the NY metro area. I think RU should have as part of it's OOS student goal a target goal for students that live 100+ miles from campus.

 

[retired711]

Traditionally, our OOS students came from close-by (N.Y.C. metropolitan area, eastern Pennsylvania.) The Big 10 membership has probably helped us attract students from further away, but my guess is that there aren't that many of them. Of course, we'd want them to have credentials better than NJ students.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I'm sure if you asked someone at Michigan they would say how great it is to give lower income families in Detroit and Flint a shot at world class education at a reasonable cost. They still take in rich kids from the Northeast to help subsidize that. RU can make a similar argument, though some in NJ are so provincial who knows...but we should not concede on that basis

 

[retired711]

Maybe, but I wonder how much middle class New Jersey voters (or Michigan voters, for that matter) care about subsidizing inner-city kids, especially if those voters feel that OOS students are depriving their kids of the chance to go to Rutgers. I'm sure they'd rather pay some more in tuition at Rutgers rather than not get their child into Rutgers at all.

 

[NotInRHouse]

That's a good question. But I think the pols at least have to pay lip service to affordable education, despite us knowing how Democrats and Republicans have hurt RU quite badly. It interesting too what qualifies as middle class, given that before the bubble RU had a lot more cache in middle class areas or areas with large representation at RU (Jewish and Asian towns and high schools). But post crisis, when mom and dad's savings took a hit, RU seems to be more popular in all but the wealthiest enclaves. And sometimes even then.

If they funded us like many other P5 schools, this may not be a discussion.

 

[retired711]

That's a good question. But I think the pols at least have to pay lip service to affordable education, despite us knowing how Democrats and Republicans have hurt RU quite badly. It interesting too what qualifies as middle class, given that before the bubble RU had a lot more cache in middle class areas or areas with large representation at RU (Jewish and Asian towns and high schools). But post crisis, when mom and dad's savings took a hit, RU seems to be more popular in all but the wealthiest enclaves. And sometimes even then.

If they funded us like many other P5 schools, this may not be a discussion.

The "pols" can and do talk about affordable education; that's why Rutgers' tuition increases are criticized each year. Unfortunately, the state legislature won't come up with money. Anyway, I think RU's argument that more OOS students would mean smaller increases in tuition would not sell easily.